Talk:Islamic terrorism in Europe/Archive 1

Orphaned references in Terrorism in Europe (2014–present)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Terrorism in Europe (2014–present)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Cruickshank":

• From Salah Abdeslam: Paul Cruickshank (23 March 2016). "Abdeslam likely had plans with ISIS cell behind Brussels attacks, official says". CNN. Retrieved 23 March 2016.
• From 2016 Brussels police raids: Cruickshank, Paul (23 March 2016). "Abdeslam likely had plans with ISIS cell behind Brussels attacks, official says". CNN. Retrieved 23 March 2016.
• From 2014 Tours police station stabbing: Cruickshank, Paul (16 November 2015). "Drumbeat of terror precedes slaughter that shocks France and the world". CNN. Retrieved 17 November 2015.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:11, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Apologies "Cruickshank' was my fault, I added two refs fom the article page (there were none here) improperly. I have now replaced with a better ref, also from the main article. (Well how does one talk to a bot?). Pincrete (talk) 02:23, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we will discover that in the Wikipedia there will be the first bot that passes the Turing test? Lets wait for an answer .... ;-) LucLeTruc (talk) 02:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Possible move? SYNTH/OR and source concerns

This who thing is mostly OR and currently relies on one single source. "Wave of terror" is used by GlobalNews (written by the AP) and that's the only RS to use that term. The other sources were not WP:RS. My first impulse is to nominate this for AFD... but I looked for sources per WP:BEFORE and see variations of the term used by some sources (sometimes just for France, sometimes Europe generally). USA Today mentions the phrase. The Pope referred to it for the whole world ([1]). In short, the sources and article are a mess.

• I easily found lots of uses of "wave of terror" (and similar: terror wave, wave of terrorist...) describing this particular wave of terrorism in RS.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

"Wave of Terror" concerns me from an NPOV standpoint. It's catchy, but not exactly neutral sounding. Renaming the article something like Terrorist incidents in Europe in 2016 might be more appropriate to avoid issues with the phrase "wave of terror".

If we're to keep this, we need an RS explicitly saying each listed attack is part of this wave. And honestly I think we need more sources specifying that it's a European thing (and not a global or French one). A move to a more appropriate, larger scope article might be wise too. There are various lists like List of terrorist incidents in August 2016 which may work. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:37, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

This article is about the large number of (especially Islamist) terror attacks during 2015 and 2016. I think that worthy of an article. There are more terror attacks in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. However, there are wars there - so that's to be expected. There are no wars in the EU. Jim Michael (talk) 20:09, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The RT parallels the European "Wave of Terror" with US "911" [2], so it seems to have become the topic title (for now). Surely, this may change in retrospective, but for now "Wave of Terror" is the title, though surely should be disambiguated "in Europe" or "2015-present".GreyShark (dibra) 08:22, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

• Agree that we need a new title/focus. Something like 2015/6 Wave of Islamist attacks in Europe might do. to make both date, and ideological linkage specific.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:10, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
• On the other hand, I was just looking at a book (Goerzig, C., & Al-Hashimi, K. (2014). Radicalization in Western Europe: Integration, Public Discourse and Loss of Identity Among Muslim Communities. New York, USA: Routledge) that dates homegrown terrorism among European-born Muslims to the 1995 Paris Métro and RER bombings and the2002 Lyon car attack (p. 67), and the authors really may have a point. I think I could really see the point of an article on Contemporary Islamist terrorism in Western Europe.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

While I would not oppose a change of scope if there are sources to support it, I would be a bit wary of the geographic term "Western Europe". The relevant article points to several different definitions, which come with different inclusion standards. The United Nations Statistics' definition specifically includes only 9 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, Switzerland). The definition used by the regional voting bloc Western European and Others Group includes 24 states (including some in the Balkans). the definition used by the European Union involves all of its 28 member states, while another related definitions also includes the 4 remaining members of the European Free Trade Association (countries with legal and trade ties to the EU which are not actually interested in becoming member states). The definition used by the CIA includes Ireland, the United Kingdom, Spain, and Portugal, but specifically excludes Germany and anything to the east of France. Remember that the regions of Europe are often defined differently based on specific geographic, political, cultural, or religious ideas. Dimadick (talk) 06:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course there has been terror in Europe prior to this Wave of Terror, but the topic of this article is not "Terrorism in Europe" or "Islamic terrorism in Europe", but "Wave of Terror in Europe". "Wave of Terror" terminology seems to have been utilized widely by the media.GreyShark (dibra) 11:25, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• It's not surprising that a few mentions of the phrase "Wave of terror in Europe" can be found in newspapers (even though it's surely not the common name): the term "wave" is a journalistic cliché, like every summer's heat wave, and the phrase "wave of terror" is catchy yet empty, just like "war on terror". It can be applied to any series of terrorist attacks in any country since the XIX century or before, but it certainly does not define a specific period. If this article isn't merged into Terrorism in the European Union, I propose to rename it to Terrorism in the European Union (2015-6), which is the most obvious name for a split from that main article. "European Union" is also more precise than Europe (otherwise, Turkey and Russia may be included, too). It would also be similar to Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2015-present) (main article: Israeli-Palestinian conflict), which some have called – needless to say – "wave of terror", too. Nykterinos (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Problem in table sorting

When sorting attacks by death, it ranks only by the first numeral (86, 4, 32, 2, 2, 2, 130, 12). I would love to fix this but don't know how. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:240:C603:48F0:21E:C2FF:FEAA:943C (talk) 20:29, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Ethem Aydin Orhon

I am removing this attack, given that the motive of this mentally ill assailant was revenge on the police, who had arrested him the day before for possession of a knife. Nick Cooper (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Unneccesary article

Isn't this information already covered well enough in the Terrorism in Europe article? Also if this article should exist it should have a less tabloidy title. --Ugly Ketchup (talk) 00:48, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Honestly, I find this article unnecessary and poorly sourced (besides being very similar to a previously deleted article). "Wave of Terror in Europe" is not the common name by which these events are known, and it doesn't make much sense to create a new article which merely duplicates content already included in lots of other articles, based on just a few newspapers which use this (generic) phrase, without adding much in-depth context. Europe has experienced much deadlier periods of terrorist activity in its recent history ([3]), but we don't have articles about those "waves", because historians don't call them so (for Italy, historians talk of Years of Lead (Italy)). I doubt historians will ever call this "wave of terror in Europe". In short, this appears to be WP:recentism. Since secondary sources don't commonly use the phrase "wave of terror in Europe", this article is also not susceptible to meaningful expansion, unless one applies original research to decide which attacks are part of the "wave" and which are not. It's clear that only jihadist attacks are intended to be part of it, even though EUROPOL still reports that separatist attacks, though less deadly, are still more common in Europe ([4]). For these reasons, I propose to merge all useful content into Terrorism in the European Union, e.g. in the "trends" section. We also have Islamic terrorism#Europe, which addresses the same trends. Nykterinos (talk) 15:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The current title may not be the best, but there should be a separate article about Islamic terrorism in Europe. We already have Category:Islamic terrorism in Europe. Jim Michael (talk) 16:23, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Note, however, that there isn't any country or continent with a separate article about Islamic terrorism in that country or continent, despite Islamic terrorism being much more common in non-European countries. "Islamic terrorism in Country X" are all redirects which redirect either to "Terrorism in Country X" or to "Islamic terrorism#Country X". Nykterinos (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd support this merge. I mentioned similar concerns below and would also support a page move for now if we can get the article into shape. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:41, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The table, which has been added, is the exact copy of the table in Terrorism in the European Union, without any source listing all those attacks as belonging to a "wave of terror in Europe" (OR). Nykterinos (talk) 08:23, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Definitely pointless duplication, of an ill-defined term. Pincrete (talk) 10:18, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - per [5] which groups the events under "18 months of terror" table. Perhaps we can rename, but the January 2015 is clearly is a beginning of "Wave of Terror", which is a notable, widely referred topic, with frequent related mentions in the media [6],[7],[8],[9].GreyShark (dibra) 08:16, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose merging. It's not only in the sources, but it is a useful list/article.--Gerry1214 (talk) 11:24, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose merge I do support focusing article on Islamic terrorism, (not that the Red Army Faction has been blowing up may buildings lately.) I so see plenty of use of this Wave of terror phrasing:"Pope condemns 'wave of terror'" [10]; "the wave of terrorist attacks striking Europe"[11]; "the seemingly relentless wave of terror attacks Europe has suffered in recent weeks " " ; "The Wave of ISIS Terror Attacks Is a Mark of Weakness—Not Strength" [12]. I see no reason to merge. Article needs expansion beyond mere list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:03, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

• ::@E.M.Gregory: i believe your vote is belonging to the above merge proposal, not this discussion - which is about name of the article.GreyShark (dibra) 14:00, 7 August 2016 (UTC)oops.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:07, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose depending on better sourcing. Also why is terror capitalised? Widefox; talk 21:14, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Sadly, there seems to have been more terrorist attacks in Europe in the last several months compared to 2014 and before. I would highly recommend a rename, though, given the WP:POV-sounding current title. Parsley Man (talk) 22:14, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support As it currently stands it is not much of an article. A three-paragraphs-long introduction about "increased terrorist activity" in Europe over the last couple of years, the supposed connection to jihadism and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (while at least one of the attacks was instead carried out by Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, an apparent branch of Al-Qaeda) and something about ISIL specifically targeting France. The rest is a list, but the entire article has 4 references. I am not certain if it even passes the standard of Wikipedia:Notability, which requires "significant coverage" in sources. Dimadick (talk) 06:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

the question is not how many sources are within this article, but how many source are there utilizing "Wave of terror" of "Terrorism wave" etymology in regard to recent attacks in Europe.GreyShark (dibra) 11:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

The reason for merging is that this article, as it stands, doesn’t add anything meaningful to what is already included in Terrorism in the European Union, and the scope of this separate article is unclear. Nykterinos (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose but needs a rename: 3rd party sources do not use the name "Wave of Terror" and it does not sound very encyclopedic/neutral for Wikipedia to give the phenomenon such a specific name. To build on the proposal of the OP - Islamic terrorism in Europe - I would suggest a slight rewording assuming the article would focus on terrorism in the EU/EEA, and not so much on terrorism in Russia and Turkey. Morgengave (talk) 11:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support This small article - more than half of which is a copied part of a table - is in my view redundant, and could in part be split into Islamic terrorism#Europe and Terrorism_in_the_European_Union#2004_-_present:_Islamic_radicalism - the latter of which needs more text. Besides, the rather emotive title "Wave of Terror in Europe" seems to force through a not very common phrase just because wikipedia maybe needs a article title that is catchy, but perhaps not as descriptive - somehow similar to the 'Great Recession'. - Ssolbergj (talk) 06:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
• Besides the Capitalization of Everything, the title should be renamed because it's untrue (also)... if Wikipedia's articles were renamed according to newspapers' headlines then they'll all be propaganda clickbait. -- Mentifisto 01:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support Redundant article utilising a non-neutral, seemingly invented term to present subjects adequately covered already under a sensationalised heading. I also note that though several sources use the term, none of them defines it, when, where, what is therefore either to be included or excluded from the list? When did the 'wave start? Since there is no objective definition of the term, are editors going to subjectively decide which incidents to include, or how decide? Are we simply going to know that the 'wave' is over when journalists tire of the term? Pincrete (talk) 11:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose The article is about a particular time-period which has seen a strong surge of attacks. Article seem to also have been expanded heavily with both prose and incidents after many of the comments were made above concerning lack of content. A rename might be appropriate. User2534 (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support I think a merge or change in title would be appropriate, especially since the title "Wave of Terror in Europe" is not specific to its content. Because this article is essentially two paragraphs declaring that there is an increase in terrorism in Europe and a list of terrorist attacks, it would (in my opinion) be appropriate to merge it with Terrorism in Europe. If not, at least a title change should be made, as "Wave of Terror in Europe" definitely break some POV rules for titles; it sounds like a newspaper or tabloid cover title. CentreLeftRight ✉ 06:41, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - this proposal is long overdue, with merger tags already removed from the articles a couple of months ago.GreyShark (dibra) 06:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Terrorism in Europe (2014–present). (non-admin closure) SSTflyer 04:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

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Wave of Terror in Europe → European terrorism wave (2014–present) – More encyclopedic title. Ugly Ketchup (talk) 01:48, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support, alt title European terrorism outbreak (2014–present). A wave has periodic reoccurrence. Like crime waves. A European terrorism wave, have there been others in the past? An outbreak is outside the background norm, out of the ordinary. How long it lasts no one knows, and if it will happen again is not implicit. -- GreenC 16:48, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support Current title appears to be a Wikipedia creation of a proper noun from a description in the sources. Change to Terrorism in the European Union (2015-6) or something similar. There is no need to qualify it as a: wave, outbreak, phenomenon, crisis... or any other such editorialized description. TimothyJosephWood 20:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

European countries exist outside the union. The date should be open ended to "-present" since its ongoing and 2017 is about to start. I could support Terrorism in Europe 2014-present in addition to my alt choice using "outbreak". It's not editorialized if the sources support the title (which I have not looked closely at). -- GreenC 05:05, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Whatever the title is, it should be about the whole of Europe, not just the EU. Jim Michael (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - i agree years should be added in brackets, but the proposed title might imply the wave of terror is created by Europe ("European"), rather than taking place in Europe ("in Europe"). Therefore, i'm tending towards Wave of Terror in Europe (2014–present).GreyShark (dibra) 06:48, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support moving away from "Wave of..." editorialising. Terrorism in Europe 2014-present or Terrorism in the European Union (2015-6) would be much better. The title can be about the EU or about Europe: I don't mind, as long as the content matches. Bondegezou (talk) 10:25, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, title... but agree moving away from "wave" to a list article with inclusion criteria, titles similar to Bondegezou ... we have titles like List of terrorist incidents in Great Britain, so "List of..." ... List of terrorist incidents in Europe 2014-present , List of terrorism in Europe 2014-present and a decision to include foiled plots or not. Widefox; talk 11:40, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Suggest merge (of this WP:POVFORK) to Terrorism in Europe. Widefox; talk 23:23, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Present title is awful for reasons given in the merge discussion above. Currently the list and text is solely Islamic terrorism. Is that a conscious choice? If so the title should reflect that. Are 'suspected/foiled' plots a proper inclusion? Even 'minor' arrests on suspicion? The lead text should set out clearly what the criteria for inclusion are, rather than or before discussing current (mainly ISIS?) threat. I spent several hours recently removing 'allegiance' labels (usually Islamic State), where neither the source nor the linked article even mentioned ISIS/ISIL/IS. I left it whenever one of these three was mentioned as a possible allegiance and/or possible inspiration. I also changed prev. column heading 'perpetrators' to current 'allegiance', since in most cases the orgs seem to be inspiration for, rather than active participants in the acts/plots. Therefore the current 'Allegiance' column is more properly 'Alleged/possible allegiance' rather than an established fact. I got bored checking sources and linked articles half-way down the list, but at present this list appears to be a magnet for guesswork/synth and over-simplification of what is known. I've also removed several incidents in which 'terrorism' is not even mentioned in the source or linked article, though left some where the 'official' position is that the incident was simply a standard crime, but terrorism is speculated about in sources, but again got bored. I have no strong feeling as to what the criteria for inclusion should be, except criteria should be clear and text clear as to whether an incident is confirmed as a terrorist act or simply speculated as possibly such. Pincrete (talk) 21:21, 22 December 2016 (UTC) ..... Addendum:According to The Guardian, eight attacks occurred in France within "eighteen months of terror" from January 2015 to July 2016 is in the lead, we currently have 15 in France in the same period. WP editors clearly know something the Gdn doesn't, and at the moment most are written in WP:Voice, not as attributed 'possibles'.Pincrete (talk) 12:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support moving away from "Wave of..." editorialising. Terrorism in Europe 2014-present. --John (talk) 12:29, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support a move to Terrorism in Europe 2014-present. "Wave" is unnecessary editorialising. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support a move to Terrorism in Europe 2014-present to avoid dramatisation of the article title. Even at that, the title may imply that there was no terrorism in Europe before 2014. st170e^talk 20:54, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Secondary move

User:SSTflyer This is by way of a courtesy message since you closed the recent move discussion. I ameded the lead to match the title, User:Asarlaí, partially reinstated, under the quite reasonable logic that all the content concerns Islamist terrorism. Therefore I moved the page to make title and content 'tally'. i trust the move is not controversial to either of you. Pincrete (talk) 02:11, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Its still not perfect. There has been quiet some islamic terrorism in Europe before 2014 (mainly Al Quaida) and limiting this here to >2014 seems rather artificial. So it would make sense to either limit this to ISIS terrorism or include it into a more general European islamic terrorism article. The whole article, however, is really poor quality and i am doubtful that this list of terror incidents ever evolves into something with encyclopedic value. I have no motivation to put too much work into this, my concern was just to delete all these incorrect OR terror attributions to non terror events but in my eyes this list has a long way to go to evolve into something like a decent article. LucLeTruc (talk) 02:28, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

There actually is a merge block in Terrorism in Europe regarding this. And a nearly identical list here Terrorism in Germany (with regards to Germany). There seem to be quiet some friends of lists around. All of these articles are in serios need for factual content other than just lists.LucLeTruc (talk) 02:39, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

LucLeTruc, there are various merge possibilities discussed above, but discussion seems to have stalled. Pincrete (talk) 02:42, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

You are right. I am out of this mess however. Easiest solution would be to rename to "ISIS inspired terrorism in Europe". The style of attacks is quiet different to the former Al Quaida terrorism. I personally see not too much value in these lists, so the biggest shortcoming of this article is the serious lack of content and background. LucLeTruc (talk) 03:20, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

'ISIS inspired' wouldn't work, as some incidents have other, or no known affiliations. Yes, it's very boring clearing up very tenuous (or no), connection to terrorism or Islamism. I have no fixed opinion other than that the text and lead should state clearly what the claimed connection is and who made the claim. I supported a merge, but others want the article to stand alone (sigh). Pincrete (talk) 17:22, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Original research and lots of factual errors

Folks, this article is heavily OR. I just went through the German cases and removed those where investigators ruled out terrorism and removed them from the list. Terrorism is a well defined concept and you can not link any knife attack by a mentally unstable person to terrorism (even if the shout Allahu Akbar). Especially if investigators rule this out. While doing this, i corrected quiet a bunch of factual errors. I got tired of this but could imagine that the non German cases are as speculative an erronous as the German ones. LucLeTruc (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:32, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

LucLeTruc, see my comment in 'move discussion above. Pincrete (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

This really seems like a proper Don Quichote crusade ;-). LucLeTruc (talk) 02:29, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Some incidents are put up here without any confirmation or hint by the investigators of motive. That is against the rules and purely OR. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 20:26, 30 March 2017 (UTC)