Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons

Flag icons for eSport players representative nationality WP:SPORTFLAG

Following Up: User_talk:Aspects#Why_do_nationality_flags_on_eSports_teams.27_pages_violate_WP:FLAGBIO.3F

Hi, editor of Team EnVyUs. Issue is what does "in a sporting sense" classify under for eSport players were there's no official national events. Basically, arguing the case to allow flag icons to be used under nationality for eSport team rosters.

From my understanding flag icons can currently be used to represent the nationality of a sportsperson, as long as it's in a sporting sense. So representative nationality, as opposed to legal nationality. My issue stems from the fact current guidelines are very traditional Sports oriented and the same criteria can't currently be applied to eSport players. As currently there's no sport governing body equivalent and in turn no "official" way to represent ones country.

However, I feel there's plenty of "unofficial" ways where players represent their national team at the highest level for their given eSport and in turn should pass the "in a sporting sense" guideline. Plus, in some cases like Call of Duty/Halo their participation in X Games already borders official representation.

Using Team EnVyUs as an example:

• Call of Duty: Players have participated in the X Games and were acknowledged under their respective country. Flag icons already used: X_Games_Austin_2014#MLG_X_Games_Invitational_COD:_Ghosts
• Counter-Strike: Players participate in World Electronic Sports Games and similar tournaments, which are strictly national team based tournaments à la world cup. Flag icons already used to represent team nationality: ELEAGUE
• Halo: Players have participated in the X Games and were acknowledged under their respective country. Flag icons should be used: Winter_X_Games_XX#Halo
• League of Legends: Players need to declare their (playing) nationality in order for import rules and regulations to be adhered to. These players are then continuously represented by said nationality whenever they play.
• Overwatch: Players participate in Overwatch World Cup 2016/2017, again players representing their national team at the highest level.
• StarCraft: Players participate in WESG, see Counter-Strike. Examples of current usage: example1/example2

So I would argue in Team EnVyUs case, 6 rosters have represented their countries in a sporting sense as far as eSports go. With League of Legends only lacking based on the fact no national team tournaments have currently occurred, however in the eventual scenario players nationalities are already determined. So as long as you view it from an eSports perspective, as it hasn't grown as far as traditional sports with officially recognised national teams, I feel the use of flag icons for eSport players representative nationality is justifiable. Wiki nV (talk) 03:13, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Flags against Football Clubs

Can I request clarification regarding Flags being associated with a football club name when playing football matches. My understanding is that if a flag is simply used to indicate the county they are based in would violate MOS Flag. Can I have clarification if this is correct and if the scenario would be different if they are representing their country. Blethering Scot 17:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Flags are not generally combined with club to denote their base location. They actually show the country they represent. For instance, in 2016–17 UEFA Champions League AS Monaco is paired with a French flag, despite being based in Monaco, because they represent the French football federation.Tvx1 11:49, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Representative nationality

If representative nationality means "the nation that a person represents at sport," then cases like the Olympics are easy. Other times are not so simple. Take Olaf Kölzig. He was born in South Africa. During the 1998 Winter Olympics he played for Germany. With fighters, "fighting out of" (meaning wherever they live now) is always first, then "by way of" (where they were born or raised or whatever makes them the hometown favorite, here there is no solid standard). So for fighters the tradition is that their current location is primary, and a secondary location only sometimes gets a side note. This creates a Naomi Watts situation. Depending upon context and point of view she could be said to be any or all of: British, English, Welsh, or Australian. She was born a British citizen in England, lived in Wales for a long time, then moved to Australia and became an Australian citizen. There is no single flag for that, and using all four flags will not be helpful. Flags get slapped into many tables having to do with fighter statistics, however something far less vague than "representative nationality" is needed for fighters who have ties to more than one country, which is more than a few fighters and probably other athletes that I did not immediately think of. Abel (talk) 20:25, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it's complex. But somebody can only represent one nation at once. GiantSnowman 06:58, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

That is the problem, who picks the true nation? Is it their nation of citizenship or wherever some fan says is their "hometown?" Abel (talk) 12:22, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

It's complex but simple at the same time. We denote the nationality one official represents. In case of Kölzig that's German. Yes, he was born in South Africa but only because his parents lived there at the time. His parents are German and he himself is as well. He has been for all his life and he has always competed for the German national team in his sport. He has no legal ties with South Africa whatsoever. Nothing complex about it. In the Naomi Watts case it's even more simple. She shouldn't be tied with any flag anywhere. She does not compete for any national team and does not collect any trophy is for any countries in her professional occupation. She's notable for her acting not for her nationality. I even think that here nationality doesn't even need to be mentioned in the lead. It's nothing more than personal information in a case like hers. It's interesting British nationalities were mentioned here. We have clear rules for that as well. We use the flag of the whichever nation they represent (and only that nation). This means that sportspeople who represent the UK like for instance racing drivers (e.g. Jackie Stewart, John Watson) or tennis players (e.g. Andy Murray, Virginia Wade) are combined with the Union Jack in results tables whereas sportspeople who represent one of the home nations are combined with the flag of that home nation (e.g. Theo Walcott, James McFadden or Kyle Lafferty). Of course there are exceptions like Ryan Giggs who have represent both the UK and a home nation (Wales in this case) but these are rare. In cases where the subject has two or more legal nationalities we apply the exact same rule. Whichever of the nationalities they have opted to represent. That's why for instance we list Kevin-Prince Boateng with a Ghanian flag and his brother Jerome Boateng with a German one despite both of them having dual German-Ghanian nationality.Tvx1 11:48, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

"Whichever of the nationalities they have opted to represent" assumes that all athletes have at some point publicly declared that they represent a nation and have never changed their minds or made another contradictory public declaration, which is an obviously flawed assumption. Abel (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

In case an athlete changes the nation they have represented during their career, we reflect that. We explain in the article of the athlete which nations they represented and when. In the articles on the specific competitions we use the flags of the nation they represented in that competition. For instance Bart Veldkamp explains that he represented the Netherlands and Belgium in various parts of his career. Speed skating at the 1994 Winter Olympics – Men's 10,000 metres pairs him with a Dutch flag because that's the country he represented in that competition. Speed skating at the 1998 Winter Olympics – Men's 5000 metres pairs him with a Belgian flag because that's the nation he represented in that completion. Pure and simple. Every eventuality is taken into account. Nationality is not a question of making up your mind, it's a legal concept.Tvx1 13:37, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not about long explanations within articles, this is about flags in tables were there is no room for any explanation of any kind. Abel (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Which is the whole point of symbols - they represent something that isn't explained there and then so as to save space. GiantSnowman 17:45, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

When have I ever claimed it wasn't about flags in tables. The two articles on speed skating events I linked directly how flags in tables are dealt with. And it uses one flag per athlete. The flag of the country they represented in the event in question.Tvx1 17:54, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

"Nationality is not a question of making up your mind, it's a legal concept" directly conflicts with "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that they correspond to representative nationality, not legal nationality, if any confusion might arise." Abel (talk) 18:02, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

It appears I haven't explained myself properly. What I meant to say is that representing a nation isn't simply a case of making up your mind. All sports' governing bodies have strict conditions for representing a nation. Sometimes is tied to the laws, sometimes it isn't. Changing a nationality during one's career is also strictly governed. Generally, one can also only represent one nation at a time. For instance, every article on every olympic event we have on wikipedia combines athletes with the flag of the nation they represented in that event. There is no scope for confusion there. The reason this guideline contains the contested wording is that in some cases sportspeople can compete under a different nationality than their legal nationality/citizenship. For instance, Mark Williams (snooker player) competes for Wales and not for Great Britain. Hence in results tables we combine him with the Welsh flag on not with the British one. We thus display his representative nationality in the sport (Welsh) and not his legal nationality as shown on his passport (British).Tvx1 17:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

The Olympics, FIFA, and a few others have strict conditions for representing a nation, other organizations have little or no conditions whatsoever. Abel (talk) 18:09, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

No they all have these conditions. World Rugby, IBA, ICC, UCI, FIA, FIM, FIS, FINA, ITF. You name them, they all have strict conditions.Tvx1 18:51, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Legacy Fighting Championship, Tachi Palace Fights, Resurrection Fighting Alliance, Jungle Fight, ... Abel (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

This discussion has made it abundantly clear that the phrase representative nationality means nothing. Abel (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

No it hasn't. In fact nobody has thus far agreed with your claims or objections. Your making a problem out of something that is not a problem at all.Tvx1 17:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

No one has been able to define representative nationality. Without a definition representative nationality means nothing. Abel (talk) 17:42, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I have explained the definition above. In some sports players represent another nationality than the one of their passport and in that case the former is their representative nationality. In the case of someone like Gareth Bale his legal nationality is British, whereas his representative nationality in competitions like the FIFA World Cup and the UEFA European Championships is Welsh. I had already explained that very clearly.Tvx1 18:51, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

No one disagreed with any of that. However, that still fails to address the numerous problems with the still undefined concept of “representative nationality” listed above. Abel (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

@Id4abel: You appear to have a problem with WP:NOTGETTINGIT when it has been explained to you with great patience, and no other editors consider the current version as being problematic. I will offer you a good faith suggestion: please drop it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I absolutely understand the arguments. Abel (talk) 22:32, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Then maybe we're not understanding what you're trying to communicate to us – perhaps you could give us an example of an article where the use of representative nationality is confusing to you. Mojoworker (talk) 23:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

... and please explain why you are continuing to edit war the content despite the fact that more and more editors don't understand what you think the issue is and are reverting you. Please stop edit warring. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Representative nationality confuses no one, the phrase has no definition so each person’s different definition is just as valid as anyone else’s definition. Abel (talk) 23:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

How do you come to the conclusion that "the phrase has no definition"? Representative nationality isn't a term of art, it is simply the nation represented by an athlete in an international sporting event. You've been given a number of examples. As a counterexample, when Olaf Kölzig played an NHL game, neither he, his teammates, nor his opponents were representing any nation in an international sporting event (even when playing against a Canadian team), so use of a flag icon is prohibited in that circumstance. Neither do the Capitals have a US flag icon, nor the Winnipeg Jets have a Canadian flag icon, since they are not representing nations in international competition. For your examples of "Legacy Fighting Championship, Tachi Palace Fights, Resurrection Fighting Alliance, Jungle Fight, ...", it's likely the participants are simply individuals competing and are not representing any nation (nor sanctioned by any nation) in an international sporting event, so no flag icon would be appropriate in that circumstance. Mojoworker (talk) 06:26, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Someone is born in Curitiba. They train in Montréal. They live in Las Vegas. They could be announced as fighting out of Montréal by way of Curitiba. Does the Canadian flag go first and the Brazilian flag second? Throw in the US flag for citizenship third, just for good measure. The olympics has a rule for this, but there are lots of athletic organizations that have no rule whatsoever. MOS:SPORTFLAGS could adopt an existing definition of representative nationality from the olympics, FIFA, or whoever when an athletic organization has no clear rule about representative nationality, but today that is not the case. The phrase representative nationality means whatever anyone says that it means and no person’s definition is any less valid than anyone else’s definition. Person one could claim that someone should have a Brazilian flag because of birth. Person two could claim that someone should have a Canadian flag because of team affiliation. Person three could claim that someone should have a American flag because of citizenship. All three are right. Abel (talk) 10:48, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

No, there wouldn't be any flag at all – it's just some random dude from Las Vegas fighting as an individual. If he happens to be on the national team, but it's not an international competition (an official competition between two or more nations) then he isn't representing any nation, he's still just an individual representing only himself, so no flag icon. The only time that a flag icon is appropriate is when the athlete is officially representing the country in a competition between nations (an international competition) and has official sanctioning (from something like USA Boxing or Sport Canada) to represent that one specific nation. And he likely trains with that national team, etc. Mojoworker (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

No, that would be wrong in interpreting what's appropriate for flag icons and what is an international competition. Events like Wimbledon are also an international competition and the tennis tournaments themselves show flags and remind us what nation the player represents. They do this on a regular basis. The player doesn't have to be a citizen from the country they represent, but they also just can't say they are from Tanganyika... the country must accept them. Then the player must register with the International Tennis Federation as playing under that country's banner. No registration or no country, then no playing in pro tennis. It is why we use a player's representative nationality and the appropriate flag icon on all tennis articles. We do not use the icon to show citizenship or birthplace. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

True, there was consensus for explicitly allowing the use of flag icons in Tennis and Auto Racing, since, as you said, they do have explicitly registered representative nationality. The ("Appropriate Use" section says "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams. In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when such representation of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." So, Abel, does the subject actually represents that country or nationality in Legacy Fighting Championship, Tachi Palace Fights, Resurrection Fighting Alliance, Jungle Fight? If not, then no flag icon. And the Sportspersons section says "flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality." If there is no representative nationality, there should be no flag icon (as in the NHL example). Also, just for fun, the definition of International: adjective – existing, occurring, or carried on between two or more nations. noun – a game or contest between teams representing different countries in a sport. Mojoworker (talk) 22:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I've been reading the discussion for a few days, but now I'm getting very interested. I'm hoping something may come out of this that would later change the WP:NOCONSENSUS which arose at WikiProject Boxing in 2015, regarding flagicons in professional boxing record tables. Bearing in mind, professional boxers do not truly represent nations in an official sense (often born in one country; represent another; licenced in another, etc.), unlike amateur boxers competing in international sporting events where nations are explicitly represented, Olympics, Worlds, European, Commonwealth Games, etc. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

We didn't talk about Boxing when icon consensus was reached for Auto Racing and Tennis awhile ago. Boxing is probably a lot different. Good luck on that front. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not optimistic about it, but will still try as it's been almost two years and continues to be a sticking point across boxing articles. Again, where professional (not amateur) boxing differs from motorsports and tennis is that athletes in the latter two compete explicitly for a nation, and (outside of WP) a flag will be prominently displayed under their statistics. With professional boxers, there are constantly situations where one is born in a country; moves to another, gains dual citizenship, considers it their second home; hops over to yet another country and gets licenced; starts "feeling in their heart" the countries of their parents; yada yada yada. All this then encourages WP editors to take liberties when it comes to flagicons—edit wars aplenty.

This is why I still hold out hope that some wider-ranging MOS(es) could see an end to flagicons in professional boxing fight record tables, although the aforementioned WP:NOCONSENSUS has thankfully forced some exceptions. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:24, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Then practically every boxing, kickboxing, mixed martial artists, and plenty of other athletics articles are inappropriately using flags as all those athletes represent only themselves and have no official connection to any country whatsoever. Abel (talk) 05:53, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

No, with boxing we use the exact same approach as with other sports. We look at whatever nationality the relevant governing bodies associate the competitors with and use the corresponding flag here. For instance here the IBO lists their current champions and their nationalities.Tvx1 09:18, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Mixed martial arts record tables have actually done away with flagicons since 2011, after a very messy discussion for which I wasn't around, but have since read extensively. Consensus looked near-impossible at one point, but they got there in the end. Mainly it was the "But they look nice! The itty bitty icons are essential information!" crowd that dug their heels in. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

If only "done away with flagicons since 2011" were true. Plenty of articles ignore that directive wholesale. [1] and [2] are just two that I can instantly think of, out of an ocean of examples. Abel (talk) 07:55, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

In case of the former example, the governing body does not seem to give much importance to nationality, so there is a case for removing the flags. However in the second cass the governing body does list a nation for all the champions, so I don't see a problem with the flags there as long as they match the source.Tvx1 13:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

So whatever some organization decides is more marketable is that persons nationality, cute. Abel (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

You act like all sportspeople have five or more nationalities one of which needs to be cherry-picked by their sport's governing body. That's just not true. The vast majority of them have exactly one nationality during their entire life and thus nearly all the time there is just no need to even consider what's "more marketable.Tvx1 14:37, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

All people who do not hold dual citizenship have one nationality. Your version of representative nationality gives people whatever nationality you think is most appropriate for them based on your mystery criteria. Abel (talk) 14:56, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

In the sport of tennis, that is 100% false! Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:09, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

It isn't true of dual citizenship for people in any field (sports, academic, etc.). I think Abel is conflating the concept of ethnicity with nationality big time. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:54, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

na·tion·al·i·ty noun the status of belonging to a particular nation. Abel (talk) 04:12, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

A nation, not nations. Abel (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Please stop bludgeoning the process. Surely it has become abundantly clear that no other editors actually understand the point you're trying to make. Going on and on about it is obviously not clarifying your perceived problem, so it's best that you drop it unless you can formulate a comprehensible argument. This has just become a time and energy sinkhole for numerous editors who'd use their editing abilities for constructive work on the project. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:36, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Mojoworker is the only person to bother to attempt to define representative nationality as, "The only time that a flag icon is appropriate for an athlete is when the athlete is officially representing the country in a competition between nations that has official sanctioning like USA Boxing or Sport Canada to represent that one specific nation, unless the sport is Tennis or Auto Racing." Tvx1 claims that Mojoworker's definition lacks consensus. Nothing has changed, representative nationality means whatever anyone says that it means and no definition is any less valid than any other. Abel (talk) 15:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not really concerned with who's bludgeoning whom, or what, but is there a way we could now go forward on this—even just a small step? It'd be good to have some setup here for the purposes of another RfC (a rematch, if you will) at WikiProject Boxing regarding flagicon use, and hopefully zapping them this time. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I would like to see a definition of representative nationality. I do not care what that definition is. The definition can be completely ridiculous. Any definition is better than no definition. Abel (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I have given you the definition about five times and given some examples as well. You just refuse to acknowledge that for some reason. Which flags appear in the wikipedia article are not decided by person one or person two or person three. It's dictated to us by the sources. And while other users have pointed out that Mojoworker's definition was to restrictive, I wasn't one of them and I would prefer I you'd strike that claim. Also the aforementioned discussion didn't deal with some sport called "Auto Racing" but with motorsports in general, whether that's on two or four wheels. I will also contest that tennis and motorsports have some special status within this guideline. Mac Dreamstate, if you are seeking for the MOS to dictate whether or not nationality is relevant enough in a particular sport (i.e. boxing) for the articles on it to use flagicons, we can't help you. MOS can only set out conditions and is moreover merely a guideline and not a low. It is then up to the WikiProject dealing with that particular sport whether or not nationality is important in that sport, preferably through assessing reliable sources covering the sport.Tvx1 22:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

What happened to highway signs?

We used to cover those in here. Where'd that go? We've historically had a serious problem with people using them in running sentences. Do not want to see a return to that.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:54, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Falls under WP:NOICONS, I'd think? --MASEM (t) 13:50, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Futureproofing

Is there a guideline that recommends to use era-specific flags (e.g., {{flagicon|US|1960}} or {{flagicon|UK|1960}}) in contemporary situations so as to prevent them from becoming outdated? Obviously I can see the reason for their varied use at historical and war-related articles, but how about a professional boxing record for a contemporary athlete who is only 26 years old, and who's era has seen no changes of flag? Seems like overkill to me, but then I hate those damn itty-bitty icons being there in the first place—professional boxing isn't the Olympics. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:44, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

The section Use historical flags in contexts where the difference matters has the ridiculously vague guidance of, “Use a historical flag and associated country name when they have at least a semi-officially applicable rationale to use them." People can do wheatever they like with historical flags. Abel (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)