Talk:Grace O'Malley

I have attempted to add more detail from the Dictionary of Irish biography entry.

Untitled

This article needs to be expanded. There is considerable information about Granuaile in public records and in books that is not mentioned in this article. Her privateering and political maneuvering are barely mentioned at all. Also, sources need to be cited. I'm beginning to add cites to Anne Chambers' books, and will continue to expand the information over time. Aramink 22:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I am the author of the web page linked to externally. It's my own research and my own words. If someone wants to edit it into this wikipedia entry they have my full permission. (The poem is not mine though.) --jaymin 13:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Great work J. My only crib is that her name was'nt Grace, it was Grainne. Any chance of at least calling her that in the article? Fergananim

Checking references in Anne Chamber's book titled Graunuaile, p. 147 an engraving dated 1793 calls her "Grana Uile". Bingham refers to her as "Grainy O'Maly" (p. 141), "Mother Grany" (p. 121). Walsingham as "Grayn Ny Mayle", p. 100. Dury as "Granie ny Maille" (p. 88) and "Grany O'Mayle" (p. 87). Sidney as "Grany Imallye", p. 85. In her petition to Elizabeth in 1593 she calls herself "Grany ny Mally".

Historically there is no "right name". I think the English speaking audience is most familar with her as "Grace O'Malley" so, for clairity, I would suggest this is the appropriate nominative to use for this article.

--jaymin 20:45, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aye, but all those people were English! And if you look at what they've written, its the phonetic reproduction of Grainne, not Grace. Which she does - above - herself too!

"Historically there is no "right name"." I must beg to differ! She was Gráinne ní Owen Dubhdara O Mháille. Grace O Malley is the English version of her proper name! In your introduction you introduce her as "Grace O' Malley (Irish Gráinne Ní Mháille, also known as Granuaile or Gráinne Mhaol)" when it should be the other way around. (i.e., "Gráinne Ní Mháille, also known as Granuaile or Gráinne Mhaol (English: Grace O Malley)."

In all honesty, I accecpt your nameing the article by her English name, but don't you think there is a case for changeing the first few sentences the way I outlined? Saying stuff like Historically there is no "right name" is something I would have expected from a 19th centuary English person; it sounds very ignoble in this day and age. Fergananim P.S: Happy birthday!

Just a note that as an English-speaking Canadian, I knew her as Gráinne ní Mháille, although there is also a chain of pubs named after her in Ontario. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (bounties)} 01:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I am irish and before reading this article i had never heard her referd to as "Grace O'Malley" only Gráinne Mhaol. Grace O'Malley leaves a sour tast in my mouth. i strongly suggest that the article title be changed to Gráinne Mhaol. would you change Attila the Hun to 'Timmy' because it is more familiar.

If it were more familiar to English speakers, then yes. Wikipedia has some established guidelines which apply here: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) are both relevant. My reading of these says that since "Grace O'Malley" is more familiar to English speakers, that's where the article should be. It's no different from having the article on Charlemagne at Charlemagne rather than the more accurate Carolus Magnus. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Gráinne Ní Mhaile was her name in many accounts I've come across, though the most common reference I've seen is Gráinne Mhaol or the corruption/contraction Granuaile. You may argue that the name Grace O'Malley might be easier for some english speakers. Perhaps move the article to Gráinne Mhaol or Granuaile with Grace O'Malley redirecting? I think notability and distinctiveness plays a part in this too. Grace O'Malley is still a popular and likely name in this day and age in both Ireland and the USA but there is certainly only one Granuaile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

On the matter of the name, it is "Ní Mháille" when naming a woman, "Ó Máille" when naming a man, or the family in general. The prefix "Ní" ("daughter of") causes lenition (the "h" following the initial consonant) of the name following it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.226.230.36 (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Many Wrong Things

This article doesn't seem so accurate--at least, to me. I believe Grace O'Malley was three years older then Elizabeth I of England, but in "Later Life" it says they are approximately the same age. Interestingly, this same article lists Grace's birth year as 1530, and Elizabeth was born in 1533. It also says that Grace refused to bow to Elizabeth because Grace herself was a Queen (of WHAT? I've never heard of this, now!). I believe the actual reason was because Grace didn't recognize Elizabeth as her own Queen, and wished to show Elizabeth this. I also believe that, in the section where it speaks of her marriage to Donal O'Flaherty, it should list her daughter and two sons that resulted from this marriage (Margaret, Owen, and Murrough). I also believe it should be noted that she supported many Irish rebellions against the English, and, therefore, was known as 'The Mother of All Rebellions'.

Since there were no further comments I've corrected/added/deleted the article to fit the above statement.

It did say "approximately". 3 years isn't a big difference in one's early sixties.

She was queen of Mac William Íochtar Sheila1988 (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Editing

Because of a recent editor, I've re-written a paragraph so that it makes better sense, and am going to add an entire section about Grace's meeting with Elizabeth, since that was a very important part of her life.(This added by User:KEB on 15:21, 10 July 2006--File Éireann 19:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

- Being a novice of privateer, buccaneer and pirate history I turned to friends in the historic reenacting field for information. I'm surprised to find out through their research that Grainne (Grace) was less of a traditional pirate and more of a Mata Hari figure in her time and place. She bedded many a man in order to obtain information she could use for personal gain. It is too bad this information isn't widely available to readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.172.36 (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

So, where did your reenacting chums get their info? Beastiepaws (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Jan Rogozinski

Since Rogozinski's Pirates! is so popular and so widely plagiarised by people running pirate sites, lots of people have picked up on his mistaken belief that Grainne was fictional. Should we perhaps, to avoid confusion, add a section mentioning this mistake and the likely reasons why Rogozinski made it?

Shaun Davey

There's no reference to the Grainuaile suite! I don't have the references to hand, so anybody in the meantime?--Shtove 22:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Early Life

The introduction lists her birth as "c.1530" whereas her birth year is affirmatively stated in this paragraph. I'm correcting it, since there are no sources listing a specific birth year for Grainne Ni Maille in anything I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please change it back, and include a reference for the date. Aramink 14:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations

This article relies too heavily upon Ireland's Pirate Queen: The True Story of Grace O'Malley. This article should incorporate several other sources for more accuracy and a more balanced picture of Grace O'Malley.--Redroven (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Oró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile

'Oró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile' - the version you refer to is not, strictly speaking, a traditional song but is an existing pro-Jacobite melody/song from the 18th century with new words written by Padraig Pearse (poet - executed for his part in the 1916 rebellion). Gráinne Mhaol is mentioned in 2 verses but the bereaved widow/imprisoned lady you cite is possibly just a general symbol for Ireland. You can check this through discussions on the Mudcat folk music site. Seán Báite (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The song is an example of aisling. It was used to stir up rebellion. I think the comment about it should be clarified, correlated, and moved furthur down, since it has little to no significance to Grace O'Malley's actual biography. 74.166.44.177 (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)Aidget

For some reason, all mention of this song has been removed. I've added a brief mention under cultural impact, where I believe it belongs. --MadaRuadh (talk) 13:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

could whoever messed up the infobox please fix it. Adaircairell (talk) 14:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Descendants

Does Grainne have any confirmed descendants alive today?The article doesn't say whether she does or not.13:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)

Primary vs. Secondary sources

I am concerned that, while Anne Chambers' book is no doubt a valuable source of information, it is nonetheless a secondary source. Out of 29 citations in the article, only four are from primary sources: that is, from papers from the time of Grace O'Malley or scholarly examinations of those papers. I presume Ms. Chambers' book has a bibliography and/or source information included; perhaps those should be referenced in the Grace O'Malley article.

Contradiction?

At the top of the article it seems to say Grainne was executed because she talked to QEI in latin. Then later on it says that when Grainne met QEI they had to talk in latin because Grainne couldnt speak english and QEI couldnt speak gaelige? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.206.1.17 (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

name spelling

could we please be consistent with the spelling of her last name, being a relative of hers living in Australia iv had my name spelt many many ways. the article says Mháille so i take it that is the proper spelling... o'malley would be best to use since it is most known, then again that may be wrong to use since it is the American version of the spelling. i just think we need to keep the name the same though out the entire article Jalex3 (talk) 01:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Ní Mháille = daughter of; Ó Máille = son of. It would be silly to put an Ó (never mind the non-existent in her day English 'O'Malley') after her name given the circumstances. This explains why she is know as Gráinne Ní Mháille to anybody who knows the cultural world from which she came. 109.76.243.175 (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Grace O'Malley which just happens to be the first name for this article when it was started in 2002. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Gráinne Ní Mháille → Granuaile — Common name per the naming convention. --RA (talk) 17:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

• Well, WP:Use Common Names and WP:Use English (but not WP:ENGVAR) would call for a move to Grace O'Malley. However, the proposed move is still an improvement. Support. — AjaxSmack 00:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

• AjaxSmack is right, I think, to propose a move to 'Grace O'Malley' instead. Although anglicisation does not necessarily make a word or name more common in English-language sources (a stubborn misconception on Wikipedia, but that's for another discussion), I've got the impression that Grace O'Malley is more common than either 'Granuaile' or 'Gráinne Ní Mháille', or 'Gráinne O'Malley' (Mary O'Dowd's article in the ODNB). Cavila (talk) 09:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

• Agree with the others - move to the commonest name in English which is Grace O'Malley.--Kotniski (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Protest

Her name was not "Grace". -- Evertype·✆ 08:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Nor was Jesus' name "Jesus". But we title articles according to what their subjects are called in English nowadays.--Kotniski (talk) 11:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Not here on Clew Bay in Co. Mayo where Gráinne actually lived. Today, in English, she's called Gráinne. -- Evertype·✆ 12:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Including in major references like the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. The article should be at Gráinne O'Malley to reflect modern use. -- Evertype·✆ 12:28, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Looking at Google Books, I'm getting less than 50 hits for "Grainne O'Malley" pirate published since 1990, compared with over 2,000 hits if I change the first name to "Grace". --Kotniski (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Looking at Google Books as evidence is a dubious exercise. Google are good at many things, but producing good OCR of anything non-English they are not. So any searches you do have an inherent English bias. A reasonable consideration of reliable sources would be a better guide. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia. I don't think "an inherent English bias" is a bad thing. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

That is the effect of one populist writer's work, and a recent musical. This person is correctly names in the Oxfrord Dictionary of National Biography. "Grace" is a laziness. Grace doesn't correspond to Gráinne as a name, either (as Séamas and James do). You will find more hits on "grandfather clock" than "longcase clock" too but the article is correctly named. Google (and google books) is NOT the main authority. The move from Ní Mháille to O'Malley was fine, but the move from Gráinne to Grace is not. If this does not satisfy you, then we need a proper review. I certainly do not think that four comments made above constitute broad consensus. I am opposed to keeping it at Grace O'Malley and dismayed that you moved it back, in fact. -- Evertype·✆ 21:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, the four comments are all the consensus we have - they certainly carry more weight than your one voice of opposition. Similarly all the many sources that call her Grace carry more weight than your cherry-picked single source (and a few others) that call her Grainne. But you're free to make a new proposal (WP:RM) if you're not satisfied with the current title. --Kotniski (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I think it might be helpful if someone could please add the phonetic pronunciation for the name "Grainne". Go raibh maith agaibh.Mannanan51 (talk) 04:33, 11 September 2012 (UTC)mannanan51

Larry Allen is hyperlinked to the wrong wikipedia article.

Under Cultural Impacts, in reference to the 1989 musical production by Tom Powers and Larry Allen, the Larry Allen you link to is the wrong Larry Allen. The Larry Allen who did the music for this production was not a star football player. 67.253.18.84 (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Granuaile daughter Margaret/Murrought

I have found some information in the Wexford Gentry Vol. 1 (Art Kavanagh and Rory Murphy) concerning Granuaile's daughter Margaret. According to Kavanagh and Murphy, Margaret (named Murrought here) married Sir Lawrence Esmonde, of Ballynastragh County Wexford. They had one son, named Thomas. Sir Lawrence met Murrought in the course of his service in the army in Connaught.

However I notice on the wiki page for Sir Lawrence, it is written that he is married to Morrough, who is named here as the son of Granuaile and Donal. Can someone clean up the naming conventions here?

Backbeatlistener (talk) 14:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference needed for her wealth?

The lede section currently says: "O'Malley was very wealthy (reportedly owning as much as 1,000 head of cattle and horses[citation needed])." Later in the body this statement is repeated, this time with a reference: "Around the time of her meeting with Queen Elizabeth I of England, she owned herds of cattle and horses that numbered at least one thousand, comprising great riches by the standards of the time.[28]"

MOS:LEDECITE says: Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.

It seems obvious to me that the number of O'Malley's livestock is not at all likely to be controversial, and therefore does not require a source in the lede. Any reader curious to know where the figure came from can find it in the body and see the reference. Therefore I removed it, explaining why in the edit summary. User:JesseRafe seems to think otherwise, but rather than explain why he has engaged on a campaign of reverting my edits, simply asserting that a source is needed without explaining why. He then accuses me of edit warring. I call on him to explain here why he thinks the sources is needed, or to acknowledge that it isn't, in keeping with the MOS. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Agreed we don't need citations in the lead if they're repeated later in the body. — Jon C.^ॐ 11:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

PS: Just to be clear, I didn't remove the reference, I removed the Template:cn demanding a reference. That is what got certain editors' panties in a knot. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

There being no objection, I'm now going to re-remove the CN tag. Anyone who has an argument to make in favor of restoring it should make it here first. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Sigh. User:JesseRafe is at it again. "nor any explanation given why this CN is unneeded here" is a blatant lie. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 14:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)