Talk:İsmet İnönü

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Comment

"...İnönü served for ten years as leader of the opposition before returning to power after the coup of 1960."

He returned in what function and untill when?--Cigor 12:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Prime Minister. For 4 years, I believe, until 1965. Aaрон Кинни (t) 01:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Quoting: "According to Wikipedia in French, Inönü was responsible for a 1942 tax that especially hit Jews and Christians, refused to allow Rumanian Jews refuge in Turkey, put his face on coins and stamps, made the posting of his picture in schools and government offices obligatory, and enjoyed the official title of Milli Sef, i.e. boss of the nation." The part of the article which adds this information has been reduced to the phrase about 'Milli ,Sef' on Oct 7,08: I am not sure whether it should be restored or not since no reference to source is given apart from 'fr.wikipedia'Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Kurd or not?

Was İnönü Kurdish or not? Or was he just born in a Kurdish area? If either is the case, it needs to be recorded as a fact and not edited out. Folks at 137 11:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no clear argument which proves that Inonu was of Turkish or Kurdish ethnicity. But if you ask my opinion, he was a Turkish man. Kaygtr 00:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's good that we don't ask for your opinion. If anyone has a good source showing his ethnicity then please edit it here. Ozgur Gerilla 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, there is no source about Inonu's ethnicity. So the argument about his family should be deleted. --Kaygtr 17:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe some user can provide this source. But until then I think it will be right to delete the information about his ethnicity. Ozgur Gerilla 22:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Info about his ethnicity is deleted, since there's no evident information to prove the existence of his kurdish origins. Wikipedia is not the place to spread misinformation in order to push your political agenda. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 16:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well actually republican people love İsmet Pasha but mild natiolists think he was unseccessful and extreme nationalists think that he was both unsuccessful and unproper (because he had a mixed identity). I have extreme ideals too but we can't blame him because of his parents. On the other hand he was not a good commander and he was not a talented leader (of course he was more talented than Tayyip Erdoğan :)). Deliogul 21:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

At least there should be an ackowledgement that this point is in dispute. There is NO proof of Inonu's ethnicity. Some have attributed or made such claims without ANY proof. Such references are obviously bogus and not valid. Given the long-standing dispute here why is there an insistance in the article to remove even the word "claimed" which seemed like a reasonable compromise? Not to mention his mother or her family was from Bulgaria. The continuous reverts from one particular editor is looking like an edit war. There are ways to resolve it. Murat (talk) 18:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

İnönü's Kurdishness came from Kürümoğulları family of Bitlis. Takabeg (talk) 18:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

How? He has never written or spoken in Kurdish and never made any such claims as some others have done. These are claims at best. Is there a DNA test one takes for these? Highly disputed right here too, so even more inappropriate to present it as undisputed fact in the body of the article. Murat (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

You appear to have problem reading the English sources.

N. Pope, H. Pope, Turkey Unveiled: A History of Modern Turkey, Overlook Press, 1998, ISBN 1-58567-096-0, ISBN 978-1-58567-096-3, p.254 (... president of republic, including Ismet Inönü and Turgut Özal, had Kurdish blood. Several cabinet ministers in 1980s and 1990s had been Kurdish...

Romano, David, The Kurdish nationalist movement: opportunity, mobilization, and identity, (Cambridge University Press, 2006), 118; Despite his own Kurdish ancestry, Inonu had apparently embraced Ziya Gokalp's notions of Turkism, which allowed him to advance to the highest post of the new republic.

Erik Jan Zürcher, "The Young Turks – Children of the Borderlands?" (October 2002),"İsmet İnönü, was born in İzmir, but in a Kurdish family hailing from Malatya in Eastern Turkey..."

Do you need this translated? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Merci, Bear. Murat, Zürcher öyle diyorsa öyledir artık. Takabeg (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I repeat: What exactly makes him Kurdish? His name is Turkish. He has never spoken or written a single word of Kurdish. He has never claimed or stated that he is Kurdish. No one from his family has. He has in fact put down Kurdish rebellions rather harshly. So, what makes anyone here more of an expert on who the man is than himself? None of these sources indicate WHY he is Kurdish? Which one actually goes beyond stating it? Any proof or evidence in the form I stated above? His father was from Malatya, not the other half. Not everyone from Malatya is Kurdish. People seem to extrapolate too easily. Most important indicator though is what people say who they are. Inonu never said he was a Kurd. That seems definitive to me. At best one can he may have Kurdish ancestary, and that is what I have done. What part of all this is not clear? Murat (talk) 00:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• About His name is Turkish. - "İsmet" is Arabic. "İnönü" is the name of place (maybe Turkish but I don't know the etymology of the word). Traditionally Arabic first names are also used in Turkey. According to Surname Law of 1934, family names must in Turkish language. "Abdullah" is Arabic, "Öcalan" is Turkish. "Recep" and "Tayyip" is Arabic, "Erdoğan" is Turkish. There is no direct relationship between names and ethnicities in Turkey.

So his name is not Kurdish

• About He has never spoken or written a single word of Kurdish. - We cannot know whether he spoke or wrote a single word of Kurdish Kurdish or not ?

So we have no proof he has ever uttered a single word or written one in Kurdish as far as we know

• About He has never claimed or stated that he is Kurdish. No one from his family has. - It's nessesary for him to claim. Kâmran İnan is also Kurdish descent, but I have never heard his claim. I think it's easy for us to find claims that "Kürümoğulları is ethnic Turkish descent." Because the Kurdishness was a kind of tabu in modern history of Turkey. On 8 December 1925. the Ministry of Education issued a circular banning the use of such divisive terms as Kurd, Circassian and Laz, Kurdistan and Lazistan. (Andrew Mango, "Atatürk and the Kurds", p. 20.) The regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état officially defined Kurdish as "Mountain Turkish".

So he has never ever identified himself as a Kurd, nor practiced any such culture as far as we know

• About None of these sources indicate WHY he is Kurdish? - We don't have any sources indicate why Tevfik Fikret is ethnic Turkish ?

So ALL sources cited do not go beyond simple claims. Irrespective of Tevfik Fikret's ethnic identity, we know he was a Turkish poet, and he never claimed to be an Eskiomo or an Indian for example or displayed any other traits than being Turkish.

• About His father was from Malatya, not the other half. Not everyone from Malatya is Kurdish. - Nobody said that those who came from Malatya are Kurdish.

So we know his father is from malatya, but he may not even be a Kurd himself

• About Inonu never said he was a Kurd. - Most of Kurds never said they were Kurd to the public, until the Kürt Açılımı (Kurdish overture, Kurdish opening, Kurdish initiative).

Anyway, our duty is neither to prove anything nor to deny anything, but to transfer information based on Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 02:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Our duty is to note that "some have claimed Kurdish ancestary". That is ALL we can really say. Dont you agree? Murat (talk) 03:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Murats post is a clear example of cherry picking. A clear indication of POV pushing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Well said, Takabeg. Here is another reference;

The Kurdish Mosaic of Discord, Nader Entessar, Third World Quarterly, Vol. 11, No. 4, Ethnicity in World Politics (Oct., 1989), pp. 93; "Even Ismet Inonu, Ataturk's long time ally and successor, was discouraged from revealing his Kurdish heritage.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Turkish and Kurdish or Kurdish and Turkish :)

That's great !!! Of course, we should be a bit patriarchal. Father comes first ! Meanwhile, my granduncle is an acquaintance of Erdal Inonu and they live in the same neighborhood. So, it's time to pay a visit to my granduncle.. :) So far as I know, Erdal Inonu is suffering from an illness, but if I will be able to have the opportunity to have conversation with him, I will ask some questions regarding our issue. About his father's native language and ethnic origins etc. Whenever I will get new information, I will share it here, but that can take a couple of weeks. Kizzuwatna 03:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe, I couldn't help myself. ;-) I would love to hear what he says, please keep us updated! —Khoikhoi 03:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Note: I actually reverted myself. —Khoikhoi 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That's quite true. Otherwise, everyone would understand vice versa. Anyhow, changing the sequence will not make him more Turkish or Kurdish. --Kizzuwatna 03:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course. —Khoikhoi 03:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand this effort to assign Kurdish blood to him. A statement that can be made for many Turks probably but what does it mean? The references given, three of them, make no such mention. Not surprising, since there is no official or technical definition of "being a Kurd". Mixed blood? How? Who and when? There is absolutlely no such information or any such statement form Inonu himself or his family. Who is pushing this and why? The fact that references are bogus seem to indicate a lack of good will.--Murat (talk) 02:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I have been in touch (indirectly) with members of the family. No one ever recalls any member of the Inonu family identifying themselves as "Kurdish", there is no such record or proof other than speculation due to one side of the family coming through Malatya. Now some here will claim to better than the family I am sure:)--Murat (talk) 13:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a 3rd party published source from you, just your personal opinion, again. Yet I see two references with quotes in the article, which you've continued to try to either remove[1] or weasel word[2] around. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

See the discussions above. All of it. No one was able to produce a reliable and reasonable proof of his ethnicity. No member of his family, including himself has ever made any such claim (unlike Ozal). People in touch with them, and I am not the only one, have already been told that there is no basis for such a claim. The article already explains that his mother was from Bulgaria, and thus it is already technically wrong to call him Kurdish. NONE of the references included offer ANY PROOF of his ethnicity, but only statements, as such they seem to be irrelevant. It is hard to understand the motivation for these racist arguments and fabrications, but then again, some are in the habit. Until someone brings up a real proof, such statements and claims do not belong here.--Murat (talk) 13:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems silly that the article says outright that he is of Kurdish descent when there is such flimsy proof for it. I agree that it should be removed or at the very least presented as a claim; a claim not given much seriousness in academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ortauygun (talk • contribs) 17:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Some of the article doesn't make a great deal of sense in English

I've edited it to be a little clearer where I understood what the article was trying to say. In other places I've had to leave it as it was, even though I don't think it makes sense, because I'm not sure what the article is trying to say. Notably:

"After World War I he passed the Anatolia to join the Turkish nationalist movement. After the default of Ali Fuat Cebesoy to organize the local Turkish rebellious troops, he became the general commander of the western Turkish army and remained in this position during the War of Independence."

I don't know what 'passed the Anatolia' means. Does it mean he travelled through the region of Anatolia?

"the default of Ali Fuat Cebesoy to organize the local Turkish rebellious troops" doesn't make sense to me either. Does it mean that Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to organize the local Turkish troops, so İnönü did it instead? Or what? In English, default usually means either an obligation which is unfulfilled, e.g. "to default on a loan", or something which happens because of inaction, e.g. "the default option". I've never seen "default" used in the way it is in this article, you can't have a default of a person; a person has to do the defaulting.

You could perhaps say Ali "defaulted on his obligation to organise the local Turkish troops", but I still don't think it's very good English. I think the article means something like: "after Ali failed to organise the local Turkish Turkish troops". Or perhaps, "When Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to rise to the challenge of organising the rebellious local troops, İnönü took the task on himself, and became the general commander of the western Turkish army, a position he remained in during the War of Independence." But it could also mean something like "After Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to control the local Turkish rebellious troops, İnönü became the general commander..." It depends on whether Ali Fuat Cebesoy was a rebel himself who just wasn't very good at organising, or whether he was actually trying to stop the rebellion.

Not knowing enough about the subject, I'm asking someone who does know more about it to tidy up these sentences, please.

Thanks,

--Merlinme 16:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether Hamid ed-Din was leader of Rumelia or Yemen in the following sentence is unclear: “He won his first military victories by suppressing two major revolts against the struggling Ottoman Empire, first in Rumelia and later in Yemen, whose leader was Yahya Muhammad Hamid ed-Din.” Also, this sentence is a bit awkward: "He thus took over numerous private property under government control." Is it intended to state that "Thus, under his leadership, large amounts of private property was nationalized."? Pebblicious (talk) 01:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Negative points

According to Wikipedia in French, Inönü was responsible for a 1942 tax that especially hit Jews and Christians, refused to allow Rumanian Jews refuge in Turkey, put his face on coins and stamps, made the posting of his picture in schools and government offices obligatory, and enjoyed the official title of Milli Sef, i.e. boss of the nation.

Maybe this stuff should go into the English article.

We can even call him a dictator. You know, he didn't do anything to promote democracy (at least Atatürk tried it in even harder times of the country) and worse than all, he directly claimed to be the successor of Atatürk. He built a personality cult around Atatürk to stay in power and he was buried next to Atatürk in Anıtkabir (where he ordered the construction of... interesting detail). Then he waged war against Pan-Turkism in 1944. He was using Nazi Germany's torture devices on those people while he was discussing the position of Turkey with the Allies. It is disgusting but sadly similar to what had happened after Lenin's death. Stalin jumps on the memory of Lenin, he builds a temple to put Lenin's death body in, he creates photos to show the connection between him and Lenin and then finally he eliminates the people who are against him by showing the ideals of the country as the reason... Of course İnönü was much softer and silent than Stalin but their tricks are the same. See you, Deliogul 15:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

All this seems to be a lot of judging, subjective interperetation and analysis. He did not for example put his his face on money, treasury department did. He should be given a little more credit for keeping Turkey out of WWI (here it is told as if he did a terrible misdeed!), he should be given a bit more credit for ushering the multi-party rule and a little more credit for building the country and infrastructure. Maybe the axes should be ground somewhere else, even on the discussion page here, but let's keep the body of the article clean and objective.--Murat (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As to İsmet İnönü, there are approachs to define the İnönü period (Millî Şef dönemi ) as a dictatorship. On the other hand, The question whether Atatürk was a dictator was always a sensitive one in Kemalist Turkey.

cf. Censorship in Turkey, tr.wikipedia de.wikipedia (the Law on Crimes against Atatürk)

Category

User:Hudavendigar claimed rv to proper terminology and common use.. But this isn't issue on terminology. Category:Turkish military personnel of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922 is one of the subcategories of Category:Turkish military personnel of the Turkish War of Independence. As long as I know, İsmet Bey/Pasha participated in the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) as "military personnel". I can say İsmet that participated in whole of Turkish War of Independence as minister. When you find sources for proving Category:Turkish military personnel of the Turkish War of Independence, you (everyone) can put this category. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Kürümoğulları

His grandfather was Abdülfettah Efendi, and father was Reşit Efendi. They were members of Kürümoğulları family of Bitlis. His mother was Cevriye Hanım who was a member of a Turkish family of Razgrad.

According to Retired Tankist Senior Colonel Mehmet Atilla Kürümoğlu, who claimed that their family is Turkish in 2010, Kürümoğulları might come from Central Asia to the village of Kürüm of the district of Bağışlı in the Hakkâri Province. Semra Sezer, who is the former first rady (Ahmet Necdet's wife), is also a member of this family.

I think "from Central Asia to..." is fiction. Just like, the Balkan Turks' claims that they are Turkomans who came from Konya. According to İsmail Hami Danişmend, this was a traditional claim amang Balkan Turks.

İsmet Paşa Kürt mü? “Çok geçmişe gidilirse ne çıkacağını bilmiyorum. Babamın babası, Kürümoğullarından... Onlar da Kürt olduklarını söylemiyorlar. Ama Bitlisliler... Bitlis’te de tüm Kürtler birlikte yaşıyorlar. Dolayısıyla çok geriye gidilirse belki ortak cet ortaya çıkar. Ama babam da bu soruna yumuşak yaklaşırdı. Tabii isyan kabul etmezdi, ama herkesi 1. sınıf insan olarak görürdü.” In this interview, Erdal İnönü didn't say whether Kürümoğulları is Kurd or not ? His fathers didn't say that they are Kurdish. And Erdal İnönü mentioned to the possibility of common ancestor with Kurds in the past. Takabeg (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyway as to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, İsmet was a Kurdish descent. Because secondary sources says so.

Not really. He clearly does not say he is Kurdish. Leaves the possibility open. There is clearly no basis for the definitive statement "he is Kurdish". One can only point at the possibility. No need for secondary or other references once the man himslef has spoken about it.Murat (talk) 01:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In short, Identifying reliable sources >>> are much more important >>> than my/your/his/her/our/their POV. I think if you want, you can add infromation above. But Colonel Kürümoğlu cannot be regarded as third parties. Takabeg (talk) 02:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Then why not say "his father was claimed to be of Kurdish descent", or he was of Kurdish descent? This is very different than "he is Kurdish". For a man who has not spoken or written a single word of Kurdish and has never made any such claims? Murat (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Most of souces don't say "He was Kurdish". Sources say "He was Kurdish descent".

• N. Pope, H. Pope, Turkey Unveiled: A History of Modern Turkey, Overlook Press, 1998, ISBN 1-58567-096-0, ISBN 978-1-58567-096-3, p.254 (... president of republic, including Ismet Inönü and Turgut Özal, had Kurdish blood. Several cabinet ministers in 1980s and 1990s had been Kurdish...) - reference found in Turkish Wikipedia article]
• Romano, David, The Kurdish nationalist movement: opportunity, mobilization, and identity, (Cambridge University Press, 2006), 118; Despite his own Kurdish ancestry, Inonu had apparently embraced Ziya Gokalp's notions of Turkism, which allowed him to advance to the highest post of the new republic.
• Erik Jan Zürcher, "The Young Turks – Children of the Borderlands?" (October 2002)
• "Demek İsmet Kürttür. Hem de koyu Kürt! Biz bu heyetin başından Abaza diye Rauf’u attırdık. Türk diye bir halis Kürt getirmişiz, vah yazık!", Rıza Nur, Hayat ve Hatıratım: Rıza Nur-İnönü kavgası, Lozan ve ötesi, İşaret Yayınları, 1992, p. 235.
• "Even Ismet Inonu, Ataturk's long time ally and successor, was discouraged from revealing his Kurdish heritage.", Nader Entessar, "The Kurdish Mosaic of Discord", Third World Foundation, Third World Quarterly, Vol. 11, No. 4, Ethnicity in World Politics (Oct., 1989), Carfax Publishing Co., 1989, p. 93.

On 8 December 1925. the Ministry of Education issued a circular banning the use of such divisive terms as Kurd, Circassian and Laz, Kurdistan and Lazistan. The Turkish government traditionally followed the assimilation policy and regarded ethnic minorities in Turkey as Turks. Especially the regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état followed strict policies in favor of creating order inside of country. The regime of this coup d'état officially defined Kurdish people as the "Mountain Turkish".

So we can find many Turkish sources that refer Kurds as Turks. Even about Saladin.

Ismet Bey?

Is/was he also known as "Ismet Bey"?
From article: "When the 1934 Surname Law was adopted, Mustafa Kemal gave him a surname delivered from İnönü" -- and since he was [1884] "born to Reshid (Hacı Reşit Bey) and Djevriye (Cevrye Temelli Hanım)..."
Would this be the same person described in the Battle_of_El_Buggar_Ridge article: ..Ottoman forces at Beersheba under the command of Ismet Bey...

This appears to be so, according to this article: Turkey in the First World War / Who's who: Ismet -- However, this article is somewhat confusing, since it alternately refers to "Mustafa İsmet", "İsmet Bey", "İsmet Paşa (İnönü)", "İsmet Paşa", and "İsmet İnönü" -- All of which seem to be talking about the same person. If anybody understands this name-changing, please explain it in the article, and provide appropriate redirects and wikilinks to him from articles such as Battle_of_El_Buggar_Ridge. Thanks, ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 08:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Partly done: the links from (above) article are done, but redirects, etc. still need attention. ~Eric F 21:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 22:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Somebody who knows the subject should add something similar to:

His name at birth was Mustafa İsmet, and he was later known by the following titles:

• İsmet Bey (from / to dates + description)
• İsmet Paşa (from / to dates + description)
• İsmet İnönü (from / to dates + description)
  

~Thanks, Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)