Talk:Disneyland Railroad

Proposed merge with Primeval World

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article is unsourced, and a large portion of it violates WP:NOT. What little salvageable content there is should be merged with Disneyland Railroad and Western River Railroad pbp 18:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge The Primeval World retains its own notability and if sources are not in the article, they can be obtained very easily. JOJ ^Hutton 22:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll believe that when I see it. The onus is on you to find them; until you do, it fails GNG. And my comment about large portions of the article violating WP:NOT stands. Furthermore, failing GNG or not is irrelevant to a merge; articles that pass the GNG are not immune to merger pbp 23:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support The article is not notable enough to stand on its own, however could be merged into Disney Railroad if we could find some sources, if any. Zach Vega (talk to me) 00:24, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
• Reopened discussion it's not really appropriate for the person making the proposal to decide consensus. As far as sources are concerned I have found several. I just haven't had computer time to transfer them into the article. Will do so this weekend if the family doesn't dominate my computer. JOJ ^Hutton 19:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but the discussion has gone a week, and a majority of editors agree that, even if sources are added, the content should still be merged. As such, it was perfectly acceptable to be closed by anyone. You are alone in believing that, sources or no, it deserves its own article, and if you want to add sources, they'll have to be added here, because Primeval World is not going to be kept as an article. Please stop the disruptive stonewalling pbp 19:59, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lilly Belle tours restriction

I was told the new restrictions are to help preserve the carpet which is all that is left from Walt's apartment. It'll wear out anyway, but not as soon. Eeekster (talk) 02:41, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Attraction or Railroad infobox

Should there be an attraction or railroad infobox? The WDW Railroad has an attraction infobox. Hawkeye75 (talk) 23:06, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Fundamentally, the Disneyland Railroad is both a railroad and an attraction. Serious rail enthusiasts would probably see it first and foremost as a railroad, but I believe that a general audience would see it as an attraction. I would argue that an attraction infobox would be most appropriate. And like many of the other Disney railroad attractions, the railroad-specific attributes such as track length and guage, can be provided via custom values in the infobox.Scott Roy Atwood (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Support - The Railroad is an attraction in a theme park. Hawkeye75 (talk) 20:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

WP:OSE is not, on its own, a valid argument. To a 'general audience', it does not make a difference, as readers do not see the infobox name when viewing Wikipedia. Conversely, attraction-specific attributes can be provided via custom values in the railroad infobox. I see no reason to change the article as it stands. Regards, James (^talk/_contribs) 19:41, 29 August 2016 (UTC

The rail infobox does not have custom values in its syntax. Hawkeye75 (talk) 20:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

As a railroad, the Disneyland railroad is an extremely atypical example, as it doesn't really move goods or passengers around, except within the quite confined borders of the Disneyland theme park. As an attraction, it is quite typical, and the general audience is more likely to categorize it along with Big Thunder Mountain rather than Burlington Northern. Far more of the attraction infobox parameters are salient than rail infobox parameters. I would strongly support using the attraction Infobox rather than the rail infobox, and incorporate rail infobox specific parameters such as gauge and length as custom parameters. Scott Roy Atwood (talk) 04:50, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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whistles

Should the information regarding the whistles be kept or removed (in part or in whole if that is the case)? Because when I look at it, I feel that at least 1 point is more of an opinion than it is fact. Specifically, the point about fred gurley's whistle shrieking. Wouldn't some people consider it something other than a shriek? Plus NONE of the information stated there is cited so it's hard to tell whether or not the info given is accurate. Anybody could claim that the ward Kimball's whistle is a Crosby 3 chime when it is in fact a different whistle like a lunkenheimer 3 chime.71.201.71.151 (talk) 16:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

The number one consideration when determining whether content in an article should be removed is whether it has a healthy amount of inline citations backing it up, and the section on whistles has none. In my opinion, it should be removed along with all of the other long-winded and unreferenced sections of the article. Having this much unimportant information about a subject is akin to an article about a famous novel having the entire text of the novel included in it. Highlighting every nitty-gritty detail and sub-topic about the subject is not how Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written and if we want the Disneyland Railroad article to eventually be returned to Good Article status, the editors who added this unnecessary content need to accept that fact. Jackdude101 (Talk) 04:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Disneyland Railroad/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bob1960evens (talk · contribs) 11:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I will review. I will work through the article, making notes as I go, returning to the lead at the end. Please indicate when issues have been addressed with comments or possibly the {{Done}} template. I am not in favour of using strikethrough, as it makes the text difficult to read at a later date, and it is an important record of the GA process. Bob1960evens (talk) 11:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

History

Attraction concept origins

• As a young boy, he began to have the desire to become a train engineer... This sounds cumbersome. Suggest "... he had a desire..." Done
• Starting in late 1947, he began to develop an interest in model trains... Same issue. Suggest "...he developed an interest..." To avoid too many "developed"s, it might be better to change "he developed an interest in playing polo" in the previous sentence to "he started playing polo". Done
• By 1948, Walt Disney's interest in model trains began to evolve... "Began" does not work with "By". Suggest "By 1948, Walt Disney's interest in model trains was evolving..." Done
• was based directly off of copies of the blueprints for the Central Pacific No. 173 "off of" is poor grammar. Suggest "was based on blueprints..." Done
• Prior to the incident that closed the Carolwood Pacific Railroad, Walt Disney... I am not convinced that we need the full name again. Suggest "Prior to the incident that closed his railroad, Walt Disney..." Done
• ...in a potential backlot tour... Backlot is not a common term, and needs a little explanation here. It could also be linked to the article Backlot. Done
• the idea of an amusement park across the street from the studio named Disneyland This reads as if the studio was named Disneyland, but I presume it was the amusement park. If so, suggest "the idea of an amusement park named Disneyland across the street from the studio" Done
• During this time, Disney proposed that the narrow gauge Crystal Springs... This sentence is very long, with insufficent punctuation. (Try reading it, and only breathing where the punctuation is.) Suggest "During this time, Disney proposed that the narrow gauge Crystal Springs & Southwestern Railroad, which the nearby Travel Town Museum in Griffith Park were planning to build, be extended to run through Disneyland; however, due to the impending construction of the Ventura Freeway between the two sites, and the Burbank City Council..." or somesuch. Done

Planning and construction

• a sponsorship deal was arranged with the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (AT&SF) Suggest wikilinking the Santa Fe. Done
• The abbreviation DDR starts to be used without any proper introduction. It should be introduced on first occurrence, so "the triangular route for the future Disneyland Railroad (DDR)" and then you can use DDR subsequently. Done
• nearly identical proportions as those of a conventional 4 ft 8 1⁄2 in (1,435 mm) standard gauge railroad Suggest removing "4 ft 8 1⁄2 in (1,435 mm)" as we already know that standard gauge is this size, because it was introduced in the previous sentence. Done

Additions in the late 1950s

• when the It's a Small World attraction Suggest quotes or italics for "It's a Small World" or it reads awkwardly. Done
• Joining the No. 3 locomotive when it went into service in early 1958 were... We know it went into service in early 1958 from the previous sentence. Suggest "The No. 3 locomotive ran with five new open-air Narragansett-style excursion cars, with front-facing bench seating," and joining the sentence to the previous paragraph, as it is currently a single sentence paragraph. Done
• On March 31, 1958, the No. 3 locomotive participated in the inauguration ceremony ... This sentence is much too long. Suggest splitting and adding some punctuation. Done
• allowing for superior views Sounds like real-estate speak. Suggest "better views" Done

Changes from the 1960s to present

• The Lilly Belle was given a new exterior paint job... Suggest "new exterior livery" or "paint scheme", rather than "job". Done
• In 1999, after Norred died the previous year, his family sold... This reads awkwardly. Suggest "Norred died two years later, and in 1999 his family sold..." Done
• In spring 1966, a five-gondola train set with green-and-white-striped awnings... Another single sentence paragraph. Suggest joining to the following paragraph. Done
• By the time ... the DRR's original roundhouse ... was replaced... Cannot use "was" with "By the time". Replace with "had been replaced". Done
• It was then sent to the Walt Disney World Railroad... This sentence needs splitting into two, and the grammar improving. Have a go at reworking it. Done
• to give Johnston, his mentor, an opportunity with which to reunite and drive his former locomotive. This doesn;t make sense. Suggest "...an opportunity to reunite with and drive..." or somesuch. Done

Ride experience

• on the opposite side of the track from the station's depot building Should be "on the opposite side of the track to the station's depot building" Done
• The DRR's otherwise-restricted roundhouse can be viewed by participants of specific runDisney events where the race course organized for the runners goes past the facility. This is a single sentence paragraph. What does "otherwise-restricted" mean? That you cannot go there, cannot enter it, or cannot see it? Suggest clarifying, adding a brief explanation of runDisney, and splitting into at least two sentences, with some punctuation. Done
• Its a Small World is wikilinked here, but not in the history section. Should be wikilinked on first occurrence. Done

• That is the text reviewed. Most of the issues are fairly trivial. There are a number of long, extended sentences, which would benefit from the addition of some more punctuation. You might like to address this in due course, or get a copy editor to do so, although they will not result in the article failing its GA assessment. I will move on to checking the references next. Back soon. Bob1960evens (talk) 13:31, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

References

• It has not been possible to check all of the references, as many of them are from books, which are not available online, and to which the reviewer has no access. However, all of the refs which can be checked have been used accurately to support the text as written. I have found no issues with any of them.

Lead

• The lead should introduce and summarise the main points of the article. As such, it is a little short. I would expect three or four good sized paragraphs for an article of this length. The final paragraph at the moment is a single sentence, and should be merged with the previous paragraph. Perhaps something on Disney's inspiration for the line, expansion from the two original stations, disposal of the original cars, bio-fuel, and maybe the 2005 event for Johnston would be appropriate. Done

The formal bit

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   See comments above

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• I have now completed the review. Overall, a well-written article, with just a few minor tweaks, largely to improve the grammar. It is a while since I have reviewed an article where there were no issues with the references, so well done on that front. I will put the article on hold. If there is anything that is not clear, do let me know. Bob1960evens (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Thank you for taking the time to review this article! I will go through and address all of the points above within the next 24 hours. Jackdude101 (Talk) 11:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
  • All recommendations below the lead section have been implemented. THe lead section will be tackled next. Jackdude101 (Talk) 02:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
  • The lead section has been expanded. Let me know if this is sufficient. Jackdude101 (Talk) 04:30, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, the lead now serves its purpose of summarising the main points of the article. I agree that all of the issues raised have been addressed, and am pleased to be able to award the article GA status. Congratulations, and keep up the good work! Bob1960evens (talk) 09:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

News butcher?

"The combine car from the Disneyland Railroad's former Retlaw 1 passenger train, one of the DRR's two original train sets, was Walt Disney's favorite train car on the railroad, as it brought back memories from his youth working as a news butcher on the Missouri Pacific Railway."

What does "news butcher" mean? If it's a real term and not vandalism it should be explained.--agr (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)  Done

@ArnoldReinhold: Yes, "news butcher" is a real term. It was a job that involved selling newspapers, candy, cigars, and other products to passengers onboard trains. It was actually a pretty common job for young boys a century ago. Thomas Edison was a news butcher when he was a kid, also, but he lost that job after he set a combine car on fire due to white phosphorus igniting in a chemistry set he had onboard. The term is not used in modern times, which explains why there is no Wikipedia article about it. This same issue came up during its featured article review and was removed elsewhere in the article as a result, but it looks like we overlooked this mention of it. I just corrected that in the article. Jackdude101 ^{talk cont} 14:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@Jackdude101: Thanks for the info. I'd be inclined to add a section to Newspaper hawker on the railroad jobs, with a redirect from News butcher, and put the term back. Do you have any good sources?--agr (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@ArnoldReinhold: Yes, two of the books used as sources in the article mention the term and describe it in detail, including the Edison bit I mentioned above. Jackdude101 ^{talk cont} 15:07, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@Jackdude101: I see the Broggie (2014) p.36 reference, what is the other book ref? If I add something to the Newspaper hawker could you check that the references support what I wrote? I'm thinking about adapting the words you used above, something like "It was also common in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries for young boys to work as "news butchers", selling newspapers, candy, cigars, and other products to passengers onboard trains. Thomas Edison was a news butcher in his youth, also, but he lost that job after he set a combine car on fire due to white phosphorus igniting in a chemistry set he had onboard. Walt Disney worked as news butcher on the Missouri Pacific Railway as a teenager, and his memories of that experience influenced his design of the Disneyland Railroad." --agr (talk) 15:26, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@ArnoldReinhold: The other source is the Amendola (2015) book. It was not used to reference the term in the article, but that's the one where the Edison info is located. I can get the related page numbers for you and review things later today. Jackdude101 ^{talk cont} 15:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks.--agr (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@ArnoldReinhold: Most of the news butcher info in the Broggie book is from pages 35 to 40 (the mention about the combine coach being Disney's favorite and how it reminded him of his youth is on page 222); the Edison info in the Amendola book is on page 22. Also, FYI, the "It was also common in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries" info is implied by the source material, but it doesn't state it outright. Jackdude101 ^{talk cont} 23:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)