Talk:Gaelic Athletic Association

Original research in "Foundation and aims" section

James Bracken was not a founder of the GAA. It was Joseph Kevin Bracken, the father of Brendan Bracken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.173.145.246 (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The opening paragraph is full of original research and needs to be removed or cite correctly the source used. Below is the paragraph in question, and the source.

The GAA had its genesis with Michael Cusack of County Clare. At the Civil Service Academy in Dublin, he established one of the first hurling clubs. Cusack, a native Irish speaker, was troubled by declining participation in traditional Irish sports. To remedy this situation and to re-establish hurling as the national pastime, Cusack met with several other enthusiasts with similar concerns, most notably Maurice Davin. Source used

1. . No mention of the GAA having its genesis with Cusack in the source cited.
2. . No mention of the club established in the Civil Service Academy being one of the "first" hurling clubs.
3. . No mention of Cusack being "troubled by declining participation in traditional Irish sports."
4. . No mention of Cusack attempting to "remedy this situation" or the "similar concerns" of others and no mention of the concerns "most notably" of Maurice Davin.

--Domer48_'fenian' 21:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I seem to remember reading this stuff elsewhere. I'll find a better source, lemme look ... --Eamonnca1 (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Eamonnca1, I'd like to offer some conflicting information to the paragraph above, but to do so it would help to have this information correctly cited, or removed. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 20:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What have you got? --Eamonnca1 (talk) 20:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources which show that the IRB initiated the establishment of the GAA, as opposed to the infiltration of it. So if you could cite a source, or correctly cite the source used it would be a great help. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 21:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Are they WP:RS sources? I had some wingnut call me up a few years ago giving out about the GAA's change of logo and the removal of the harp. He was on about how the IRB was responsible for everything and wanted to take credit on their behalf for everything from the invention of science and mathematics to the establishment of the GAA. He was a complete wacko. He's the only person I've ever heard express the view that it was the IRB's idea, all reliable sources I've ever read point to Michael Cusack, Maurice Davin et al as the initial founders and the IRB infiltration happened later.

Sources:

[1]

[2]

[3]

I'll go ahead and add those sources.

--Eamonnca1 (talk) 02:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that Eamonncal1, I'll put the sources together which challenges this text, and yes that are all RS sources. I hope you won't consider me a wacko, if I present sources which support the view of the wingnut re: the role of the IRB.--Domer48_'fenian' 14:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

"The first public meeting in Miss Hayes' billiard room marked the end of many years' secret planning and preparation. The success of their project was as good as assured before ever those seven men met, for the Irish Republican Brotherhood, who had willed the G.A.A. into existence,..." "...on a spring morning in 1879, we find Mr. Michael Cusack closeted with Mr. P. W. Nally from Balla, Co. Mayo, a gentleman strongly in favour of founding a national organisation and anxious to enlist Mr. Cusack's aid in launching such a project...The meeting was a success." "At a meeting of the Supreme Council, held in 1883, it was definitely decided to initiate an athletic movement which would attract the young manhood of Ireland. Later in the same year, a group, consisting of P. N. Fitzgerald, Pat Hoctor of Birr, John Menton and Jim Boland (father of the present Minister for Justice) of Dublin, met at a house in Blackrock as a sub-committee appointed to expedite the Supreme Council's decision." Patrick Purcell, The Secret Origin of the G.A.A., The Bell, June, 1946, Vol. XII No.3, pp. 217-29. See also, Owen McGee, The IRB: The Irish Republican Brotherhood from the Land League to Sinn Féin, Four Courts Press (2005), ISBN 978 1 84682 064 9, pp. 112-113, David Fitzpatrick, Harry Boland's Irish Revolution, Cork University Press (2003), ISBN 1 85918 386 7, pg. 19, and for a critical view see, Paul Rouse's, Gunfire in Hayes's Hotel: The IRB and the Founding of the GAA, in Fearghal McGarry & James McConnell, The Black Hand of Republicanism: Fenianism in Modern Ireland, Irish Academic Press (2009), ISBN 978 0 7165 3000 8, pp.72-85.--Domer48_'fenian' 21:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. However these accounts are contradicted by the Claire Courier source among others, and the 'GAA as an IRB conspiracy' theory is very much a WP:FRINGE view in my experience. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

One could say that these academic sources contradict the Claire Courier, and that the suggestion that the IRB were not involved in the establishment of the GAA is a WP:FRINGE view. Anyhow, this information is based on RS sources and needs to be included. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Theres evidence that in its first few years that it was infiltrated by the IRB and at one stage they held control of its Central Executive, but i haven't seen much stating that they were involved in its actual establishment. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Now we have four academic sources which say they did. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

It should be made clear in the article that there is conflicting evidence on their role in its foundation. [4] is also a reliable academic source by a PhD in Irish History so shouldn't be so easily batted away. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:38, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

All views based on RS sources should be included, that goes without saying. As to your source cited, dose it actually conflict with the view that the IRB were involved? That the information is omitted from a source, dose not in itself lead to the conclusion that it is not correct.--Domer48_'fenian' 12:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't conflict that they were involved, but it does conflict with the statement that they helped establish the organisation. That source doesn't state that they did help establish it - but that they infiltrated it - you can't infiltrate something that hasn't been established yet. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Not seeing the conflict, it mentions that they "began to infiltrate the association" that does not constitute a conflict. For example the source does not mention that the IRB were already on the Executive, that they were present when it was founded, that the supreme council discussed its establishment in 1883 etc etc. That this information is not in the source cited, dose not mean that it is not correct. I could cite a vast amount on information from a number of books, that is not in the source you cited, so please find a source that conflicts with the sources I have cited.--Domer48_'fenian' 11:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm only pointing out that one academic source didn't expliticly mention that the IRB founded the GAA. DO whatever you want with it, no real big tickle to me. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The idea that the GAA was set up at the behest of IRB is revisionist nonsense and poor scholarship which is contradicted by that Clare Courier source as well as any other source which refers to the GAA being infiltrated by the IRB after it was established. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The Clare Courier has been contradicted by four academic sources who are not noted for poor scholarship. Now if you could provide "other source which refers to the GAA being infiltrated by the IRB after it was established" we can then present the conflicting information in a more informed and balanced manner. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 19:30, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I've added text which is well referenced using reliable sources and satisfy our criteria Re:the Burden of evidence. Sources which challenge of dispute this text must follow the same criteria. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and referenced the two remaining sections, adding additional details. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Recent changes

Broadly content with most of the rework by Eamonn and Mabuska, although I have made some edits to improve it and restore some notable information that has been lost. The main concern, however, was the loss of the logic that linked the "notable rules" with the GAA's nationalism, so I have restructured to the status quo ante. For ease of reference, these are the sources that say the rules in question were motivated by nationalism:

• "From a sporting perspective the most important aspect of this was undoubtedly the formation of the Gaelic Athletics Association (GAA) in 1884. It brought together several strands of the nationalist movement which sought to promote Gaelic sport as a means of resisting British cultural influences. The GAA’s first charter included regulations which banned members from taking part in or watching games not deemed to be ethnically Irish or organised by the GAA and effectively barred members of the security forces from joining."(Sugden and Harvie, 1995)
• "The GAA had succeeded in uniting its membership around a shared love of Gaelic games and a general acceptance of what was involved in being an Irish nationalist. In order to do so, as we shall see, it had enforced fairly exclusivist rules, including a ban on playing and watching foreign games and a rule that stipulated that members of the crown (British) security forces could not join the GAA. Although these restrictions clearly had the effect of driving away most of the already small numbers of Protestant supporters of Gaelic games, they may well have helped to forge a sense of national affiliation that was able to transcend power struggles within the association and serious political schism beyond." (Alan Bairner (2001) Sport, Nationalism and Globalization (p.78). Albany: State University of New York Press.)

Mooretwin (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The rewrite as far as i was aware stated that some rules aided the alienation or exclusion of Protestants/unionists. We don't have to go into exact detail on the rules in that section when we can detail them in their own section. We could state which rules aided it in the section and leave the full detailing of them in their own section? Mabuska ^(talk) 18:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Possibly, although what's wrong with the status quo ante? Mooretwin (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Aesthetically its terrible. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:00, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Better now? Mooretwin (talk) 22:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The entire sections on nationalism and unionist alienation etc appear to have been removed from this section without any discussion, leaving only the cross-community outreach sections. I have restored. Mooretwin (talk) 08:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Inappropriate or misinterpreted citations

This source here is being used to reference most of this article section. However, the source in no way reflects the text in the section.--Domer48_'fenian' 19:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Probably because someone changed the source that was used, because that is not the source i used for some of those statements. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually i think it may have been my fault. Attributed the name parameter to the wrong source when i first declared the source, i.e. at the bit about saving from extinction. Put it onto the link beside it. Ameding now. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:23, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Having sorted out the problem with the source referenced, the following issues need to be addressed:

1. The GAA's nationalist aspect was further enhanced upon its creation with the appointment of Charles Stewart Parnell, leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, and Michael Davitt, head of the Land League, to become patrons of the association.
2. In its early years the association was infiltrated by the Irish Republican Brotherhood, whose members rose to prominent positions such as president and chairman, with them eventually gaining control of the associations central executive in 1887.
3. Divisions between constitutional and revolutionary nationalism came to the fore in the association and the politicisation of the GAA was reflected in the naming of clubs indicating support for either the Irish Parliamentary Party or the Fenians, for example: the Parnells, the Davitts, the Ballina Stephenites, and the Kickhams.
4. However, IRB dominance within the GAA central executive came to an end on 4 January 1888, when they were outnumbered and ousted from the organisation, and saw them going underground.

1. Were in the source does it say that The GAA's nationalist aspect was further enhanced?
2. Should this not be reworded to reflect the fact that the IRB were in fact present at the founding of the GAA, and from the very beginning were present on the ruling council.
3. Were in the source are these two sentences linked: Divisions between constitutional and revoluntionary nationalism came to the fore in the association and the politicisation of the GAA was reflected in the naming of clubs indicating support for either the Irish Parliamentary Party or the Fenians?
4. This section is challenged by both de Búrca, 42-43 and Mandle, 72. The IRB were still present on the council in 1888, and were in complete control in 1889.--Domer48_'fenian' 20:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

On point 1, I could re-word it and give it a citation that would support the text if that is ok?--Domer48_'fenian' 20:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Why are you asking if its okay? This is Wikipedia, if you can help improve it then please do so. I do however think the "not in citation given" tags aren't needed and are false as the information is in the source even if not worded the exact same, and we do need to paraphrase from the sources as we just can't copy-vio the thing. If you can improve then please do so. On the IRB bit, i tried to keep it as simple as possible - Eamonnca1 thinks its too long as it is somehow. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:22, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I only have a limited interest in editing, and would rather offer support on the article than getting into long winded discussions. The tags are there for a reason, to prompt discussion. The information I've tagged is not supported by the source. However, if you want to put direct quotes from the source here, and explain how they support the text, please do so. Even allowing for paraphrasing the text is in my opinion synthesisof the source material. This is the issue with points 1 and 3 above. If the information is plain wrong, as in point 4, it should be removed, and as in the case of point 2 were it lacks basic information it should be addressed. How much weight we give to a source which gives a very basic overview, compared to two detailed histories should not in my opinion need much discussion.--Domer48_'fenian' 21:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I no longer care. Do whatever you want. Synthesis or not, the stuff is in there paraphrased or whatever you want to call it. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Minor championships and leagues

It seems strange, when the All-Ireland Minor Finals are held every year on All-Ireland Final day, watched by tens of thousands and televised live, that the Minor championsips don't get a single mention in this article, or in the the List of Gaelic Athletic Association Competitions either. Especially considering that All-Ireland Minor championships, provincial Minor championships and some county Minor championships have their own articles, and that Minor championships feature on the GAA in Ireland template. I don't have the knowledge to add the content (that's why I looked it up here), but I do think it's a gap that ought to be filled. Scolaire (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Stranger still, searching for "league" finds two references to the Australian Football League and one each to the League of Ireland and the Land League, and not a single mention of the National Football League or National Hurling League! Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't it be good if an article about a sporting association told the reader about the important competitions that the association runs? Scolaire (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Modern Challenges again

This section could use a bit of an update. The article says that the association outside of Ireland has been affected by a decline in emigration from Ireland, and this was true during the Celtic Tiger years, but it has reverted back to the old pattern since the financial crisis. This is worth updating as long as it's sourced and kept in the historical context of the association's history of expanding and contracting along with trends in Irish emigration. --Eamonnca1 ^TALK 18:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This section seems to suffer from WP:RECENTISM. Quoting an article which appear to be written based on anecdotal selected quotes from members of clubs scattered throughout the USA is really no basis for making any point in this article - none of these are delivering quoted in an official capacity for the GAA organization. Likewise, the Tyrone chairman is delivering his opinion, not the official view of the organization. In my opinion, this section should be scrapped unless there are references dealing directly with the issue of "Modern Challenges" rather than editors selecting quotes to make a point. --HighKing (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Well the section is about modern challenges and is called "Modern challenges" so it's probably inevitable that it's going to be talking about more recent events. If anything it should go into the history section where it'll appear in its historic context. As for the reliability of the articles, do they violate WP:RS? --Eamonnca1 ^TALK 21:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

For me, the assertions made in the article are unsupported by the references provided. Both articles report an opinion, nothing more. What to others think? --HighKing (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with HighKing. Although there are ten or so inline citations in the section, virtually all of them relate to specific facts or quotations. The topic itself - "modern challenges" - is almost entirely original research and/or commentary. The whole thing could safely be deleted, with important and verifiable facts being moved to more appropriate sections, such as History. Scolaire (talk) 08:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Well as long as sourced material is retained somewhere else then I don't have a problem with deleting the section --Eamonnca1 ^TALK 20:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Kevin Lynch and alienation

In the section entitled "Protestant and unionist alienation in Northern Ireland", it used to specify that Kevin Lynch (in honour of whom a GAA club is named) was a convicted member of the INLA who died on hunger strike. This information was removed. I restored it twice but it has been removed again twice with the curious explanation "inconsistent". Surely it is important to note Lynch's involvement in nationalist terrorism, as this is the reason why his honouring by the GAA is alienating to unionists and Protestants? Mooretwin (talk) 11:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The labelling is inconsistent with the rest of the sentence. Mo ainm~Talk 11:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

So what? Kevin Lynch is a different class of nationalist to the others, and all the more alienating for it. Mooretwin (talk) 12:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Says who? Mo ainm~Talk 17:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Unionists. Mooretwin (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

seems common sense to include this. No point hiding facts.Wp aide (talk) 11:25, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it worth noting in the section on naming clubs that Wolfe Tone, Maguire and Mitchel were Protestant and Presbyterian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.152.2 (talk) 17:05, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Steven Moore

Either this complaint is a serious matter, in which case the other opinions of the man are entirely irrelevant to the article, or it is trivial, in which case it needs not appear in the article at all.

I can understand entirely why people would like to paint the guy in a poor light, but under neither of the above circumstances should we try to direct the reader to make conclusions about Moore's political credibility. The requirement on Wikipedia to maintain a neutral POV applies not only to the main subject of an article, but also to "other encyclopedic content...This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it."

I would favour the removal of the note of the letter of complaint. If the complaint is upheld by the Equality Commission it will probably be worth recording. Kevin McE (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The complaint is indeed a serious matter. The GAA, which has a public commitment to promoting equality and respect, has been publicly accused by the chief Northern Ireland spokesman of a political party of breaching the Fair Employment and Treatment Order, the key piece of anti-discrimination legislation in that part of Ireland. The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland is under a statutory obligation to consider this complaint. It is important to record the fact of the complaint, and important also to put it in context by providing sourced reference to the past utterances of the spokesman on matters related to equality. If and when the ECNI takes a position on the complaint that should also be recorded. Brocach (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

If that is the consensus, then it is not for Wikipedia to undermine said "chief Northern Ireland spokesman of a political party" by a blatantly selective approach to quoting his comments on other issues, no matter how repugnant we might find them. No neutral reader could consider the current text to be an even handed treatment of Moore. However, I wonder what proportion of complaints to the Equality Commission get mentioned in the relevant wiki article at the stage when it is only a complaint. The EC will indeed consider it, but if they do not consider it worthy of action, why should we consider it worthy of mention? Kevin McE (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

There is no need for all of the mini Steven Moore Bio in the GAA pages. Move all of this to the Steven Moore page. Should probably just delete and remove the complaint from Steven Moore unless it is upheld then can add again to GAA pages. Otherwise this ramble is not noteworthy at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.31.1 (talk) 13:32, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

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