Talk:Paul Denyer

Request to wear cosmetics in prison

Anyone know why he was denied to wear makeup? Also, who wrote this article? I looked for information on him no less than 4 weeks ago and there was no wikipedia article on him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.176.134 (talk • contribs)

I provided what's currently there, though the article is far from finished. The references section may give more information on the denial of his request for cosmetics in prison. I think I can work out why though. Killing three young women, then asking to become one (he also requested information on sex reassignment surgery), albeit whilst imprisoned in a maximum security prison, would pose some serious security risks I'd imagine. -- Longhair 15:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The guy says he kills women because he hates them and THEN wants to become one? If I were a judge, I would deny him the "privilege" of wearing cosmetics too. Come on... ANY decent judge would deny him to wear cosmetics after what he stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.60.53 (talk) 05:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Above post raises a great question... Anyway, this article is fairly light-weight for a serial killer thats well known in Melbourne, if not Australia. Beef it up, someone! (I cant) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.255.133 (talk) 06:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Additional information needed?

As mentioned above, this page seems rather short on some critical information. When was he arrested? When/where was the trial? The timeline information that is provided seems confusing without this information.G.turner (talk) 00:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Mr.Turner....

having been incarcerated with this animal at Port Phillip Prison, I looked on her at his fullish story. I did a bit of research. I don't know how to put the info you wanted to know in but here are a few things I found out. 

Not sure on date of 2nd murder. 1st Murder was 11 June 1993

Denyer was arrested on the 31 of July 1993. During his last murder, as he was slicing the woman open, he accidentally cut some skin from his finger which police took and got DNA from. After his arrest, police requested a DNA sample from him and it was a match to the skin from the crime scene. On 15th of December 1993, Paul Denyer pleaded guilty to ALL charges at the Supreme Court of Victoria (In Melbourne CBD, Australia)

On 14th of April 2012, Paul Denyer was questioned over an alleged rape of another male inmate. I have been incarcerated at Port Phillip in the same unit and I do know for a 100% fact that he smashed a guys head against his cell wall and raped him anally. The unit we were in was called Alexandra North at Port Phillip Prison and that was in 2004. This Denyer demanded that even other crims call him Paula. We used to have pool competitions in the unit and on the form it had it's name as Paula Denyer. If anyone (that knows how to add this) would like to add, you can because I don't have a clue on how to do it. Thank You

3rd Murder was 30th of July 1993. Barrakuta (talk) 10:16, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 03:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Deleted online letter auction section

I deleted the "Online letter auction" section because it was not encyclopedic. Serial killer merchandise is sold all the time. That doesn't make it appropriate for a Wiki article. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. --*momoricks* (talk) 12:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean?

"Denyer is a member of the first Australian-generation." He's a first generation Australian? So what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.35.144 (talk) 10:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's offensive to have him called "she" and Paula in this article

Paul Denyer hated women, he brutally murdered women and I object strongly to the use of female gender for him here, when prison officials have denied him gender reassignment and such. It's just a slap in the face to all the women he killed, and those he terrorized as well.

This is nothing to do with being politically correct, or gender issues in general. It's about not giving this murdering freak what he wants, and so I would like to see the gender stuff reverted to male. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ausgirl123 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The relevant Wikipedia Manual of Style guideline is MOS:GENDERID; it says "Give precedence to self-designation" - ie female in this case. The MOS guideline should take precedence over individual editors' personal opinions on the matter. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I think this is a special case and we should be guided by the sources. The sources referring to Denyer as "Paula Denyer" are a bunch of right-wing blogs and Wikipedia - the sources referring to Denyer as "Paul Denyer" is literally everything else about the person. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:45, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID - with my emphasis here - says "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." The Herald Sun in April 2013 published the letters in which Denyer self-identifies as Paula. Is there a more recent reliable source in which Denyer self-identifies as male? Mitch Ames (talk) 04:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Conversely, see Wikipedia:Original research. It isn't a matter of "most common in reliable sources": I literally cannot find one single reliable source anywhere (and there are a lot on Denyer) that primarily refers to them as "Paula Denyer". The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:23, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Is there some doubt about the authenticity of the letters published by the Herald Sun in which Denyer self-identifies as female? Do we not consider the Herald Sun's statement that "Denyer ... demands that he be called Paula" a reliable source that Denyer self-identifies as female? What about News Limited's statement that "Denyer ... calls himself Paula and has adopted a female persona"? Bear in mind that MOS doesn't say "give precedence to how the reliable sources refer to a person", it says "give precedence to self-designation as reported ...". I've just given you two sources that explicitly say that Denyer self-designates as female. Here's a couple more:

"... he had felt like a female from birth... underwent a medial assessment ... after apply for a sex change"

"Denyer signed the letter as Paula, the name he has used since he began his bid for a sex change"

Mitch Ames (talk) 05:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree with User:Mitch Ames here. Denyer is a piece of shit, but the MOS is pretty clear on this. Start making exceptions for cases like this and you open the door for exceptions on others as well. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 06:02, 12 November 2017 (UTC).

As a side note, in Victoria you haven't been able to change your name by deed poll since 1986. (See Births, Deaths and Marriages Victoria.) The reference to the refusal to let Denyer "formally alter her name by deed poll" is incorrect. Kb.au (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The reference says "In recent years, Denyer - previously incarcerated at Barwon Prison - has been unsuccessful in bids to wear make-up in jail, have a taxpayer-funded sex change and formally alter his name by deed poll to Paula." so "deed poll" should remain in the article unless an alternative source is found. The reference does not say why he was unsuccessful - perhaps it was because that has not been the process since 1986. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Or more likely the reporter just used the phrase deed poll when they really meant "formally alter her legal name".Kb.au (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The MoS is broken on this issue. It should really be the same as WP:NAMECHANGES. Jenks24 (talk) 09:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I disagree (MOS:GENDERID is about reference to the person, whereas WP:NAMECHANGES is more about the article title), but feel free to propose a change to MOS:GENDERID at WT:MOS. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I understand the distinction. I'm saying that GENDERID should be the same as NAMECHANGES – ie, use the most common name/gender/etc in reliable sources since the 'change' – rather than the current stance of use whatever the subject chooses, which is contrary to every other policy or guideline we have. Jenks24 (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On the broader issue of gendered nouns and pronouns in this article, what is wrong with describing the crimes and court proceedings using masculine nouns and pronouns, as that was the appropriate gender identity at the time, then describing the gender identity change in prison? The last sentence in the victims section This made Denyer angry, and she slashed at her head and neck. is hard to read. The assailant was a male and identified as such. Calling the attacker "she" in Wikipedia is inconsistent with the sources at the time. She was arrested and tried as a male, and some time later has attempted to change identity. This person would not be notable if they had not committed those crimes, and quietly went about their life in the community, with either gender. Does Port Phillip Prison accommodate female prisoners, or only males? Is Denyer in a female or male section? This could need explanation if the prison article answered that question as male-only. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Denyer, as recent as 2012, was housed within Port Phillip Prison [1] inside a protection unit. Port Phillip Prison is a male only prison environment. Female prisoners are housed just down the road at Dame Phyllis Frost Centre which is another separate facility entirely and in no way forms part of the Port Phillip Prison complex. The request for gender reassignment was refused by a court based on meetings with Human Services who found that the prisoner had not spent sufficient time in the community living as his preferred gender... I'll try source a reference for that, but that's what I recall off the top of my head until I get my hands on something more reliable than my own memory. -- Longhair\^talk 11:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

This reference appears to be no longer available online. but it's the best I can source for now...

Serial murderer's sex change rejected

By Geoff Wilkinson and AAP

June 28, 2004

TRIPLE murderer Paul Denyer's bid to become a woman has been rejected with a medical assessment finding him unsuitable for a sex change.

Denyer, 31, was branded one of Victoria's most dangerous criminals after stabbing and strangling Elizabeth Stevens, 18, Debbie Fream, 22, and Natalie Russell, 17 in bayside Frankston over a seven-week period in 1993.

He pleaded guilty to the murders and was sentenced to life in jail with no parole, adjusted to a non-parole period of 30 years following an appeal.

Denyer, an inmate of Barwon Prison, made headlines again earlier this year when he sought detailed information via Freedom of Information about government policy regarding sex swaps for prisoners and the steps required to undertake the process.

Corrections Victoria Commissioner Kelvin Anderson today confirmed the 120kg inmate had undergone a medical assessment by the Department of Human Services director of mental health Dr Ruth Vine after applying for a sex change.

"The answer's no," he said.

"It simply is that he is not a suitable person for such an operation and it will not proceed."

Mr Anderson said he was not privy to the "medical reasons" for Denyer's unsuitability.

"But clearly one of the difficulties that an applicant would have is, I believe, that they have to display a period of time of having lived in the community in this sort of situation," he said.

"Clearly someone in jail would have difficulty showing that."

He said he was unaware of any avenues of appeal available for Denyer to overturn the decision.

Denyer's case to wear make-up in jail will again be heard by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) next month.

Denyer and the State of Victoria have been involved in mediation since January, after the inmate attempted to use anti-discrimination laws to appeal against prison authorities' refusal to let him buy and wear make-up.

Prison photographs and letters obtained by the Herald Sun provide chilling evidence of Denyer's continuing bid to be treated as a woman.

He has received official assistance - despite a Victorian State Government vow to stop him.

Denyer, who stabbed and strangled three young women, now calls himself Paula and has begun moves to change his name by deed poll.

The triple murderer describes himself on the back of one prison photograph as "Miss Tickle Morticia".

A transsexual prisoner just released from the maximum security Barwon jail for men said yesterday Denyer had used prison sewing machines to alter some of his clothing in an attempt to look more feminine.

She said Denyer had continued his sex swap campaign despite State Government assurances last year that his legal action to win the right to wear make-up in jail would fail.

The Human Services Department's director of mental health, Dr Ruth Vine, visited Denyer at Barwon last month in her capacity as principal medical officer for prisons.

Denyer later wrote on May 19 that Dr Vine's report on him suggested a referral to the Monash Medical Centre's gender dysphoria unit "should be held back pending further psychological attention".

Prison sources said yesterday Denyer was receiving counselling on gender identity issues from prison psychologists.

Jayne, a transsexual prisoner released from Barwon a week ago, said Denyer had "changed his appearance, but can't change the evil in his eyes".

She dismissed Denyer's behaviour as "sick, twisted attention-seeking".

Jayne said other prisoners and prison staff regarded Denyer's claims to be a woman after killing three women as a macabre joke.

"First, he was into bodybuilding, then he decided he wanted to be a devout Christian, then he decided he was a Muslim and now - in his 30s - he says he wants to be a woman," Jayne said.

"The way he's carrying on is an insult to all women and transsexuals and the families of his victims."

Jayne received 17 letters from Denyer while they were in different units at Barwon over the past year.

For two months they were housed in Hoya, a protection unit holding about 50 prisoners, including notorious killers Raymond Edmunds and Lindsay Beckett.

Jayne said the photographs of Denyer were taken by a prison recreation officer.

Denyer poses in one, hand outstretched, and wrote on the back: "All this can be yours if the price is right. A bit more practice and I should have a career in it."

Denyer, 32, stabbed and strangled three young women during a seven-week killing frenzy in bayside suburbs in 1993.

His victims were Elizabeth Stevens, 18, Debbie Fream, who was 22 and the mother of a 12-day-old baby, and Natalie Russell, 17.

Denyer told homicide squad detectives, who interviewed him after his arrest,that since he was 14 he had "always wanted to kill".

When asked why his victims were women, he said: "Just hate 'em".

Denyer was described in court as a narcissistic sadist who was a danger to all women.

He was sentenced to life in jail without parole, but appealed successfully to the Full Court, which set a non-parole period of 30 years.

Denyer has served 11 years and will be eligible for parole in 2023 when he will be 51.

Natalie Russell's parents were "absolutely shocked" when told by the Herald Sun yesterday of his latest stunt.

Carmel Russell said she and her husband Brian wondered whether Denyer's antics would ever end, but thought it important the public was reminded of what he'd done and his subsequent behaviour.

Herald Sun -- Longhair\^talk 12:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

And this is exactly why I said it's an exceptional case. There is a reason all reliable sources addressed this issue in the way they did, and it's not hard from the above to see why. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Category "Female Serial Killers"

Since she was male at the time of committing the killings, conviction, sentencing and imprisonment, She shouldn't fall under the category of Female Serial Killers. An egg hatches into a chicken, but you wouldn't file an egg under the category of "Chicken Wings"