Talk:Jiddu Krishnamurti

Misc

This is the name the man was known by and published under all of his life. Arthur 01:57 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

I added the 1929 reference to the "Truth is a pathless land" quote, since the original statement is easily as worth reading (IMHO) as his later 1980 paraphrasing/analysis of it (which I think is the quote here). -- Ds13 08:10, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

I am adding a specific reference and link to David Bohm, and a brief mention of their series of conversations in the 1980s that resulted in the publication of The Ending of Time and The Future of Humanity. The geez 05:27, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know where the audiobooks and/or DVDs of the Krishnamurtu/Bohm conversations can be found? ThePeg 16:25 14 July 2006

General Comments and Proposals

Perhaps, it would be important to make sure k is mentioned and linked in the Wikipedia, where relevant. The links on the David Bohm and the Aldous Huxley pages are good. K had a lot of conversations, which is a good factual historical basis for making a link.

The more I look at the Huxley page, the more I think it is a good model for the k page. An organization of selected works of k would be nice, separating them into say, talks, prose, poetry, conversations, journals, with brief commentary.

I think the "See Also" section is a tad redundant. Annie Besant should be mentioned in context and then linked to.

Overall, this is a good start to the page and the selection of quotes is good. The geez 05:27, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There is a quote somewhere from Huxley where he said that after his house burnt down that the first books he bought to refill his library were that of K. Also, I beleive there is a connection with Alan Watts and K that could be researched and mentioned. I would like to see a more organized concept section, rather then just a few random quotes that have been put up. There were a number of concepts that were reoccurant in his lectures. I will try and work on this. Maybe some information should be put up about his home in California that is now a library, and the organization that now exists. These are as much notes for me as they are for you. A timeline would be nice showning major events in his life. A more complete list of people who have said they were influenced by K. I know Ken Wilber belongs on that list, and many more. Ken Wilber said that K was an early teacher who sparked his interest and got him thinking. Stevenwagner 00:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Blavatsky?

Should Madame Blavatsky not also be associated with K in this entry? Curious to get feedback on this.

I say no. There is the link to information on the Theosophical Society where they can go to find that information. Part of my reason for saying no is that Leadbeater is already mentioned, and ideologically Krishnamurti had completely devorced himself at an early age from the dogma that he was groomed into. It would be misleading to imply that there is a substantial link between K and Blavatsky. Also, I just noticed she is already mentioned at another place i the article! Stevenwagner 00:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

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Wave of Kindred Teachers?

J. Krishnamurti can be viewed as unique - but in much the same sense that each person is unique. And also in the sense that he was a distinctive teacher, writer, etc.

But I believe he can also be seen among a wave of teachers with cultural and ethnic roots in Asia who were interested in "breaking the mold" and reaching out beyond the limits of traditional identifications - at very least being involved in inter-personal dialogues in Western languages. Among others, starting their careers roughly at the same time, were Vivekananda (of India) and Soyen Shaku (of Japan). Others could be added to the list.

J.K.'spersonal limitations were explored to some degree by Radha Rajagopal Sloss (the daughter of J/K.'smistress of many years), but all men have limitations. So did the others who gained some prominence in the same years and since. But all seemed to be reasonably effective in helping other humans to go beyond the habits of hidebound religious views and ethnic diffidence.

There may be a historical aspect to all this, even if these men did not influence one another.

Chester

Extended Pathless land quote

This is from a post at a yahoogroup I subscribe to. I'm just putting it here for now because I'm short of time (need to log off and go to work). I'll come back to it later. Haven't tried to find a source for it yet, or looked at how it might fit in this article. PaulHammond 18:12, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

this reminds me of the story of Krishnamurti:

"The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members."

He did this because:

"I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. "

Neutrality

The article does not mention anything about the controversies regarding Krishnamurti's life. Sloss' book Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti is mentioned in the references, but the article itself does not mention anything about K's relationship with his secretary's wife, affair with Nandini Mehta, abortions, and other oddities not usually attributed to enlightened persons (bad expression).

A.

I'm glad you've identified a potential deficiency in this article; and better yet, you seem to write clearly and directly. So kindly take the next step and be bold in editing! --Ryanaxp 16:44, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I have read Krishnamurti talks and books for over 30 years and attended two of his talks. I could give a hoot about who what he has done or has been involved in. If some drunk lying in the street said something that caused me to examine my daily life that brought about a quiet space where I really saw what was real, I would sit next to him for awhile to see if there is more I should look at. TAllen,Hawaii 09/12/3005

Krishnamurti addressed these critcisms on his life, and though I don't have the direct quote, he said that it is not a man that people should be following but to look and see for himself if what he is saying makes sense regardless of who the speaker is. Another quote of K that I will not forget is "If the water is clean, drink it." regarding on if his teachings should be trusted.

Sam: What is your source of Krishnamurti's affair with Nandini Mehta? Further, what was the nature of the affair? Please provide more details, and your sources.

While fully realizing that it is easy to crticize, I will have to mention that I have noticed contradictions in his teaching: for example, into ripe old age, his talks mention at most places that any kind of discipline is futile. However, on desire, while expounding it, he mentions, again in one of his later talks, how seeing a car, but not letting the desire of riding that car, is the highest form of discipline. So, if he touched Nandini Mehta sexually, he let the discipline lapse, and I would assume, with full alertness.

Let's give the old man some credit for teaching a lot of right things, in a world gone mad. By the way, Jiddu Krishnamurti has asserted that looking at the beauty of a flower, enjoying a sunset, or enjoying the beauty of a woman passing by, is what makes life worth living.

I am a mundane individual, with a wife and a kid. I have no desire to start affairs, yet I enjoy and adore the beauty of other women. I hope that is not a crime. And I certainly hope that on rare occassions when I touch other women, it is not construed as an affair.

I don't understand why the attack on Jiddu Krishnamurti, when a lot of lesser mortals are passing off as religious gurus / priests / reverends, both here in US, as also in India, and also everywhere else. Some are also endorsing the bombing of Iraq, etc. Krishnamurti spoke against wars, against the brutal mayhem tha man unleashes on other man, all his life.

In rare occassions, when I go crazy in this seemingly irrational world, I frequently take recourse to Krishnamurti's mutterings. Krishnamurti was a master in what he did, let us not defacate on that beautiful flower. Sam mishra 22:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the proper format for discussion, but here is the gist

Speaking of JK being unique, would it be appropriate to mention something about the "other" Theosophical Society protege U.G. Krishnamurti, who ended up rejecting both TS and JK. I heard that one of the huncho's at Theosophical society said "we have bet on the wrong horse", referring to the JK - UG "rivalry". UG keeps blasting JK for being a fake and for wasting his time prior to his own "calamity". UG still speaks aggressively on the topic. I just thought since UG is considered by many to be ALL THAT, pardon the pun, and his own post-enlightnment(?) life is without blemish (much like Ramana Maharshi's) it would be worth mentioning him as an authority on the topic. Then again, UG blasted every teacher that came out to teach (including Buddha, Jesus, and the company) Mindgazer 17:01, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been interested in K's writing's and thought's for the last 30 years and I've seen and listened to him talk 6 times in the U.S. I've also known and talked with other people who have seen him. There are many contradictions in his Life and repetitive idea's in his talks. The contradictions in his personal life vs. his teachings are really thing's that most of us that did not know him personally are going to have to live with! To put it politely, it's really none of our fucking business nor should it be. If you really heard what K had been saying all those years, is he NEVER claimed to be anything other than what he was. A man who lived a truly mindfulness and meditative life and tried to transend things that really couldn't be transended thru words. It was a paradox he was totally aware of. His early life was quite different to say the least and without question was sexually abused and emotionally manipulated for years by the likes that most of us couldn't even imagine. He got thru that ( no small feat) and went on to live a life he truly believed in. As with Life itself,we give his teachings the same attention we give everything and move on!His true message and purpose in life was to make as many people aware of the nature of true awareness and living a life of mindfulness, the rest (whatever that might be) will follow. Simple yet difficult! One interesting thing that happened to me everytime I got physically close to him and has been reported by many people was the aura and utterly unbelieveable energy that was transmitted thru this man.He truly was a unique and powerful human being. Thanks for listening...Stephen S. 1/21/06

This article is not about his philosophy however. It is about him. Thus, every thing about him is relevant and should be included. His affairs, his in-grown toenails, whatever. Anything of interest that is. You are free to start a new article *only* about his philosophy. Wjhonson 22:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Im a student at Brockwood Park School, one of K's schools, and as far as the first comment goes, I find it a bit arrogant. K never assumed to be "enlightened", and even so, I doubt there is a clear rulebook "enlightened" ones follow. If you take the time to look at his work, you'll see he was actually quite clear on what he was talking about. In his case it's more a case of following the spirit of the law, rather than the letter. But sure, if you feel the need to show that he too made mistakes and therefore cannot really be taken seriously as a teacher, go ahead. If your interested in him, and want to give information whilst not passing, i think, naive judgement, then that would be wiser. Felix

Why is the neutrality of this article questioned??? Why don't people just add the omitted info?? There doesn't seem to be a serious problem here.--Jack Upland 06:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

POV and Defensive Content in "Criticism" Section

The "Criticism" section was originally added because the article was a bit of a hagiography and did not look at J. Krishnamurti "in the round," so to speak.

This "rounding out" was important, because Krishnamurti always said he was concerned with life as it is lived, with the proper end of Man's life (freedom, love, compassion), with human relations; not only that, but despite K's protests about being taken as a guru, many of his followers continued to look at him as an examplar and a sort of "guru" for at least five decades. K. was an educator, and he claimed a certain achievement of clarity, balance,and wholeness was achieveable in modern circumstances. In this regard, his audiences believed he himself had achieved these things (which he very well may have,in some degree).

Someone has added a couple of paragraphs in this section reading:

"Krishnamurti had in his life occasionaly commented on the apparent contradictions and paradoxes in his life. As to his singulary unique upbringing: the followers, the hangers on, the Theosophical heirarchies, the apostles and the sense of spiritual expectation that surrounded him, he would assert that it had never left an impression on him, that it left no mark on his mind.

"Regarding his unique position, he would use a metaphor of Thomas Edison. He would argue that we do not all have to possess the genius and learning of an Edison to benefit from the lightbulb, but that our task was to simply learn how to switch the light on."

These paragraphs are defense, and thus do not belong in the section on criticism. Otherwise, the bio tends to return to hagiography. Wikipedia is committed to "neutral point of view," as befits an encyclopedia. This is a site whose articles let readers make up their own minds.

Criticisms from earlier versions of this "criticism" section have been gutted to some extent. Criticism of other philosophers, psychologists, teachers and the like in Wikipedia is usually allowed to stand, undiminished, so long as there is reason in the criticism and the expression is civil. But the situation in this article is different, as the "worshipful" have attempted to shelter the man's memory.

If Krishnamurti is great, if his insights are important, they will stand a bit of criticism.

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Understanding Krishnamurti's ideas and teachings

It would seem to me that criticism of Krishnamurti's personal life in relation to his teachings is somewhat missing the point. His body of work relates to ending conflict through 'self-awareness.' The fact that in his personal life he, like anyone else, was continually discovering reality and his relationship to it has little bearing on the value of ideas he propounded from which others could aquire self-knowledge for themselves.

The suggestion seems to be that if Krishnamurti failed in his personal life due to lack of self-knowledge, then his ideas are seen to have failed and be of little value to anyone else in attaining self-knowledge. The thinking behind this seems to be that if the 'guru' couldn't do it, then neither can anyone else. One cannot learn about oneself from another, which Krishnamurti made clear.

Life, and our relationship to it and to ideas are a continuous, dynamic process - as is the accumulation of self-knowledge. To critcise Krishnamurti's ideas for his living and learning process seems to me a complete failure to comprehend the ideas that he propounded. Peter Fainton 26.11.05.

Nevertheless, what is with this language? :

"Notwithstanding his insights and the clarity with which he usually expressed them, Krishnamurti has been criticized"

That, as just one example, is definately not per NPOV policy. Regardless of anyone's respective views, this is an ecyclopædia and the wording could at the very least be more subtle. Also, out of curiousity, can anyone put his name in Telugu? I don't think जिद्दू कृष्णमूिर्त is appropriate here and I'm not even sure on that spelling anyway! Did link up Madanapalle. Khirad^talk 09:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I have put Jiddu Krishnamurti's name in his mother tongue, Telugu.

But the article is not about "the value of his ideas", its about all of him, his ups and downs, his goods and bads. Peter you could start a new page just on his philosophy and link it to this one, but you'd still have to allow that there would be criticism. Wjhonson 10:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Journal and notebook: which is which?

The articles linked from the booklist about Krishnamurti's Journal and Krishnamurti's Notebook contained no publication data when I ran across them. The ISBN listed in the booklist's description of the Notebook was actually for the Journal. I fixed this, and placed the proper publication data into the linked articles for Journal and Notebook, but a problem remains. Since I don't have access to either book, I cannot determine whether the present content description of them is correct. Thanks in advance if you can verify the descriptions. --Blainster 22:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all let me thank you for your additions and for cleaning up the article. The content description of these two book is correct. (I haven't read these two books completely, so my opinion is based upon Mary Lutyen's biography, which has a whole chapter about Krishnamurti's Notebook.) --Mallarme 12:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The Last Talks

The article contains several quotations from a book titled The Last Talks. Although the booklist does not contain a book with this exact title, there are two possible candidates: Last Talks at Saanen, 1985, and The Future Is Now: Last Talks in India. We need an editor to determine which citation is the right one, and correct the text. --Blainster 02:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The first quotation was from "The Future Is Now: Last Talks in India". I cannot find the second "last talks" quotation of section [1]. --Mallarme 12:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Links to non-English language sites

I removed a link to a Portuguese (language) site for K. ebooks, because it is not useful to those who are unilingual. There are two acceptable options in my opinion. The best would be to provide a link here to the appropriate Portuguese Wiki about Krishnamurti, and place the K. ebook link there. In addition, if the Krishnamurti ebooks themselves are available in English, then there should be an English language site we could find to link to. The appropriate WP Manual of Style guidline about foreign language links is here. --Blainster 16:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Krishnamurti's education books

I have completed my additions to the booklist for now, primarily adding pub. data for books already listed, and adding a list of his Collected Works. The books are now ordered by date of first publication, with added ISBNs for current editions. It appears that The First and Last Freedom may not have been K.'s first or second book. The 1953 date of Education and the Significance of Life is the copyright date appearing in the 1981 edition. The 1912 Gutenberg text of Education as Service is another early publication. Is it possible that Education as Service is reprinted as Education and the Significance of Life or Krishnamurti on Education? --Blainster 18:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

According to Mary Lutyens Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment The First and Last Freedom is K's second book and Education and the Significance of Life is his first book:

"1953 saw the publication of K's first book brought out by a commercial publisher, Harper & Row in America and Gollancz in England... Called Education and the Significance of Life.... (p 81)

"In May 1954 K's second book was published by Gollancz (it had appeared earlier that year in America) - The First and Last Freedom..." (p 86)

Of course some would consider At the Feet of the Master to be his first book, which is a debatable point. --Mallarme 22:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, but what about the 1912 text Education as Service? It's introduction is by Annie Besant. According to the title page it was published in 1912 (two years after At the Feet of the Master) by Rajput Press in Chicago. Here is K's description: I will take the four Qualifications which have been given in At the Feet of the Master, and will try to show how they can be applied to the life of the teacher and of the students, and to the relations which should exist between them. (After looking at the other two "Education" texts I can see it is different from them.) --Blainster 05:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I finally found a reference about "Education as Service" in Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening on page 63. It says that Lady Emily stated that this book was "obviously the work of George Arundale". But Mary Lutyens thinks: "In view of Krishna's letter saying he had written it, Lady Emily seems to have overstated George's part in its composition. No doubt George helped him and did some editing, and Krishna's style would almost certainly have been influenced by George...." Education as Service (TPH, London, October 1912).

This seems to be a case similar to At the Feet of the Master, although less debatable. --Mallarme 14:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this. --Blainster 15:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, many Krishnamurti books were published before Education and the Significance of Life or The First and Last Freedom. To be fair, Mary Lutyens merely claims that Education and the Significance of Life was his first book "brought out by a commercial publisher", but she is also incorrect about that.

The Immortal Friend was published in 1928 by Boni and Liveright. It lists the following other books by Krishnamurti: At the Feet of the Master, By What Authority, The Kingdom of Happiness, The Path, The Pool of Wisdom, Self-Preparation, The Search, Temple Talks, and Who Brings the Truth. This list is probably not complete, as it doesn't list Life in Freedom, also published in 1928. (Of course, that could have been published later in 1928 than The Immortal Friend.) The Immortal Friend is a collection of Krishnamurti's poetry, so it could have been omitted for that reason, but the titles suggest that some of these other books are not poetry.

I'm not otherwise familiar with Boni and Liveright, but The Immortal Friend is a hardcover which by outward appearances is a "commercial" book. A quick Google search yields tens of thousands of references to Boni and Liveright, including this one: "by 1925 Hemingway was published by a major US publisher, Boni and Liveright":

http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=2077

so clearly Boni and Liveright was a "commercial" publisher.

There are also the numerous items in the Authentic Reports series, which started in 1933. These were paperbound, often thin, sometimes perfect bound rather than squarebound, so they're more "booklets" than "books". They were published by The Star Publishing Trust, or Krishnamurti Writings Inc., so they were not "commercially" published. (The 17 volume Collected Works is basically a corrected reprint of the Authentic Reports.)

Perhaps Mary Lutyens meant to say that Education and the Significance of Life was Krishnamurti's first book published by a commercial publisher after the dissolution of the Order of the Star. --Wayne Vucenic 17:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Defense of Krishnamurti"

Krishnamurti had in his life occasionaly commented on the apparent contradictions and paradoxes in his life. As to his singulary unique upbringing: the followers, the hangers on, the Theosophical heirarchies, the apostles and the sense of spiritual expectation that surrounded him, he would assert that it had never left an impression on him, that it left no mark on his mind.

This section has been removed from the article for two reasons: It carries no source citation, and it was entered as a separate section in debate style. It could be added back in an appropriate place if properly referenced. --Blainster 15:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

what's important

i'm not sure i understand the discussion about the personal details of his life being relevant. you say the page is about him and everything about him, ups and downs and technically you're right. but when you're being technical you make a division between what's really important and what's important in this isolated little web encyclopedia world, exactly the sort of separatist attitude that got us into trouble in the first place. what's important about krishnamurti is his ideas. it's easy to say, well if he's the master and he can't perfect his own methods then where's the proof, but krishnamurti always made it clear that we were all in this together, and you can't be a perfect ten buddha in a society of minus threes. we all have to evolve together. that krishnamurti could see this from six feet under is part of his greatness.

That sounds like your opinion to me. What's important to me about Krishna is who influenced him and who he influenced. His ideas to me are secondary. I'm far more interested in his personal life. Any biography of a person, does not tend to expound only their ideas, but rather all of them. This is a biography, it's not a thesis on how wonderful his mind was. Wjhonson 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Link to U.G. Krishnamurti removed

I hope no one objects to my removing the link to U.G. Krishnamurti's Wikipedia entry under "See Also". There are only three other links there: Bohm, Huxley and Besant, so a link to U.G. Krishnamurti is quite random. My view is that despite that they met, the main reason the two men are associated is their shared surname, which sounds unscientific, but Krishnamurti met U.G. no more often than others who's names do not appear in the section. Krishnamurti met very many people in his lifetime who went on to become writers, philosophers, teachers etc. Their disagreement may have been somewhat formative of U.G.'s view of the world, but really it is only relevant within that context and had very little to do with the life of J. Krishnamurti. Comparing them might be interesting but we can compare anyone's ideas with anyone else's. There remains a link to U.G.'s entry under "Criticism of Krishnamurti" (where I notice the use of the word "indulgence" is somewhat misplaced). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.69.21.243 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The interesting thing about the two Krishnamurtis is its like they were brought together to fight. Me, I'm with Jiddu - but its always fascinating when every action generates its own equal reaction. ThePeg 14.6.06

Article improvement

There is lots of information here, but none of it is referenced to sources. Let's try to improve the article by adding citations to the text, and referencing them in a "notes" section. This is particularly needed in the criticism section, which reads like editor's personal animosity without references to published work. --Blainster 01:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

As a starter, what is the source of The Core of the Teachings? The article says it was written in 1980 (prior to K's death) yet the "Core" refers to him in the third person. So who is the author? --Blainster 19:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

As I recall, when Mary Lutyens was working on her biography of Krishnamurti, she wrote a short statement called "The Core of the Teachings" and asked him to review it. As she had hoped, he instead re-wrote it. I have a very small pamphlet (actually just one folded piece of paper) published by the Krishnamurti Foundation of America titled "The Core of Krishnamurti's Teaching" which says at the end, "This statement was originally written by Krishnamurti himself on October 21, 1980 for 'Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment' by Mary Lutyens, the second volume of his biography, published by Farrar, Straus & Giroux in 1983. (c) Mary Lutyens. On re-reading it Krishnamurti added a few sentences." It's in the third person because he often referred to himself in the third person. --Wayne Vucenic 06:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Krishnamurti's youth and his relations with H.P. Blavatsky's movement

I think that a few words about the controversies related to the "discovery" of Krishnamurti by Leadbeater should be appropriate in this Wikipedia article. Leadbeater has been suited in court for his pedophilic tendencies, and for having very special conceptions on the sexual education of young boys. All of this is well known now, and fully documented. It sheds new light on the "discovery" of Krishnamurti by Leadbeater on a beach in South India. Also, it would be quite informative to get accounts on what happened to Krishnamurti when he was "invited" in California for the first time, and all the strange events that appeared there at the same time. Also, Krishnamurti had an open break with the Theosophical Society. TwoHorned 11:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying you'd like *more* words? Or *less* words? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're asking for. Wjhonson 15:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I meant more words: the article is too elusive about that. No ? TwoHorned 19:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you mean to say "a few words about ..."? That has quite a different implications than "few words about ...".—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I meant to say "a few words about ..." TwoHorned 19:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm re-reading the first three chapters of Mary Lutyens "The years of awakening" so I'll add a few quotes etc with citations. Wjhonson 21:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The following reference: "Theosophy, history of a pseudo-religion" by Rene Guenon is another acknowledged serious reference, and it is recognized as one of the best on these subjects. It has a special chapter on Krishnamurti and contains the detailed references and citations on Leadbeater's behaviour. TwoHorned 10:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a description of Leadbeater's discovery of K in the article , I think It is remarkable if you consider it ,was K "made" or "found' , a genius walking on a beach ( from memory ) by leadbeater ( this has often puzzled me ) men of extrodinary intellect and insight are very rare ( at least I think ) has something of a great novel about it perhaps --Scribe5 23:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Middle life

I'd like to see someone expand on his biography from the years 1930 to 1980. That section is just addressed by a few sentences. It would be nice to see something more detailed like we have for the early years. Wjhonson 23:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

'Theosophy' Category Box deleted

I have deleted the category box - 'Theosophy' with the occult pictogram. There is an historical connection to the Theosophical Society but Krishnamurti was not a Theosophist and did not practice or expound Theosophy.

Krishnamurti talking to a questionner in 1972:

K: ... there is the whole Theosophical thing, and they are becoming most verbal for various reasons, and they want to use this teaching and say, "This is Theosophy, this is partly true, truth has different facets" which is all such abomination. Truth hasn't got different facets; truth is truth. "We are all working together." That's all silly nonsense. And they are going to do all this. The more the other becomes real, the more they will exploit this. ... First of all, I never belonged to Theosophy. Never been a Theosophist. I grew up in it. Grew up in it to be exact from 1909 or 10 till 1913 or 1914. Five years, or less than that even. After that, they [he and his brother] were taken to Europe; and let loose. And there was the Order of the Star in the East, of which he was the head and didn't know what it was all about. He was there. He didn't fight it, he didn't say "Oh my God what am I doing with this?" or "why am I put in this position, how terrible what shall I do?" None of those questions arose. There was no battle in myself whether I should be or not be. And when Dr Besant died, they pushed me out. And that was the end of that. And people said, "Come back. After all we brought you up. You are ungrateful." But I said, look, Dr. Besant never said I was ungrateful; you are saying it. She brought me up, not you." She never said to me, "you are an ungrateful man," because she wouldn't. So you see what is difficult in this: the Theosophists, the present-day Theosophists - even Leadbeater and the rest of that group - for them the structure was very real, real in the sense that they believed in it. To them that was so. When I began talking, Dr Besant said, "If you want me to I will leave Theosophy, I'll resign. I would follow you all over the world, but I can't now I'm getting old." So she had already a breakaway. This is not my invention. This is...

Q: Her senility prevented her action, perhaps?

K: And all the rest of it. So you have this problem of a group of people throughout the world, a minor, very small group, saying, "You are part of us, we brought you up, you belong to us, you are saying the truth which we also accept." And he says, "No. Sorry. We parted company long ago." When Wedgewood came to Eerde and said, "But we can all work together can't we? We can all be together in this work." I said, "No, sir, you are going North, we are going South or East; the two can't meet." But they want us to meet, because many of them feel what is being said is true. And they can't let their position, all that let go and say for God's sake, drop all this. They can't so they have to justify their position. Therefore, they say we are both the same. And the man is saying we're not.

Q: But I feel... that as long as there is this danger at your death of the Theosophists putting you back in their pockets, distorting, and making you into a provincial...

K: But, sir, there it is. What can you do? We have done it. I have said it. In the old days I said, "Look. Truth is not yours or mine. Because you are Theosophists it doesn't mean you own truth etc. It has no country, no race, it has no people, it has no belief, no dogma, it doesn't etc. etc." I have repeated this ad nauseam. But the difficulty is - I see the difficulty - because their fountain is dead, dried up, and somebody's water is flowing freely. Please let me have a cup, only they want it in their terms. That's all.

It must be clearly understood that there is not any kind of antagonism, or anger or disappointment or bitterness about those who were then working with Dr. Besant - or at least supposed to be working with Dr. Besant - like Leadbeater, Jinarajadasa, Arundale and so on. I really had no contact with them after Dr. Besant's death in 1933, or even before that. I met them occasionally but there was never any serious conversation or a rapprochement, or physical or intellectual communication with them. So when I refer to these people it is not out of any sense of antagonism. I have only related facts as they were, not invented by me or thought up, or imagined, but merely stating things as they actually were. I think that's enough, isn't it?

That is not correct. Krishnamurti was the leader of Theosophy until he was about 30. He was a Thesophist like his father, almost from his birth. What he said in 1972 is not relevant. What he said in 1930 is. Wjhonson 05:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I hope we agree that the facts should be able to speak for themselves: so please go into what isn't correct, and we can try to verify the facts. I have some questions: How can someone be a Theosophist from birth? - Krishnamurti was 14 when Leadbeater took him, and really too blank at that age to be described as thoughtful, let alone as a Theosophist - he was being hit regularly by his school teacher for not learning anything. Was he really a Theosophist then? Rather moronic with his feet in the river and fleas in his eyebrows? So what does being a Theosophist mean? What are the criteria? He wouldn't conform, and they had a big problem. Also, his father left the society and took them to court for kidnapping. Futhermore how can Theosophy, a school of thought, have a leader? Do you mean leader of the Theosophical Society - the organisation? Krishnamurti was placed at the head of a particular order, not of the Society. Please quote what he said in 1930 that you mention. The article itself quotes something in 1929 when he said that truth doesn't belong to anyone.