Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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Ezidkhan

Ezidkhan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was up to July this year an article mainly about a historical region.[1] Since then Niele~enwiki (talk · contribs) has turned it into an article about " unrecognised de facto autonomous area established in the western part of the Iraqi Sinjar region.[verification needed]".(tag added in September by User:Ahmedo Semsurî. According to the infobox it has its own official language, a government which is a Democratic confederalism and Direct democracy and a Supreme Spiritual Council. Only the last has any sources, [2] which cites the second source[3].

Very little of the article is sourced. Much is about various takeovers and various security forces. This isn't the place to argue about the reliability of the sources, although I'm dubious about the two above. My point is that I can find no reliable sources justifying the claim in the introduction and the infobox, as well as elsewhere, that this is any form of government. If the claim by this source[4] is true, that there is an "Ezidixan autonomy commission under the auspices of the United Nations," - or if any of the basic thesis is true, why can't I find more clearly reliable sources? Doug Weller talk 12:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

See this - [5] (Yazidi autonomy (or various Yazidi + something) are probably better search words). The article does however seem to take things a bit, umm, too far - though some mention probably is in order.Icewhiz (talk) 12:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) Addendum - there has also been some recent (counter-Yazidi I believe) developments on the ground - [6].Icewhiz (talk) 12:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I wich way does the article takes anything to far? I do not understand why you downplay the reality of this fully autonomous region and on wich basis do you make those claims?.

East-Sinjar has already 3 years governed by autonomous Yezidi council control. With no Bagdad officials or KRG official allowed to enter the region during this whole period.

It officially declared autonomy and has set up own institutions, policeforce, military,...

It is indeed sad that it isn't covered by media more otherwise I would have added a lot extra sourcing.

Many larger media outlets just ignore the region, recklessly putting it falsely under KRG or Bhagdads government control depending the mediaoutlet loyalities or loyalities of their article sources. While non of these 2 have any control over this area the past 3 years.

At this time it's autonomy is even better established than that of the problem-plagued KRG.

But the sourcing on the page is very clear, explains the declaration of autonomy. It also neutral as also statements of the autonomous region opponents are added in the article. Framing the Syrian-YPG introduced region in Iraq as 'PKK'.

For sure is an area that is governed completely autonomous for now already 3 years very Encyclopia and wikipedia-worthy.

Any help in extra sourcing the article, of an autonomous region that is ignored by a lot of press is very helpfull.--Niele~enwiki (talk) 13:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

More reliable sources are required. And clearly this claim is contested - by ISIS, the KRG, Shia Iraq, and Turkey. De-facto control of the ground in western Sinjar throughout the three years has not be totally continuous I believe. We have other corners of Iraq and Syria which have been under the De-facto control of various groups - e.g. Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade control a piece of south-western Syria rather continuously since 2013 or so. We haven't modified Quneitra Governorate. We need to be very careful not to support the sectarian claims of various factions beyond the level evident in the sources (Which in this case, the KRG and YPG might want to show as part of a continuous Kurdish region - linking Iraq and Syria).Icewhiz (talk) 13:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

The sources for the existence of an autonomous region are partisan - if this was clearly true, I'm sure there would be better sources, and the defense that other media are telling porkies isn't going to hold water. There are no sources for the form of government, the languages, and much else. I'm not sure that the editor adding all of this is really clear about what we mean by no original research. Doug Weller talk 14:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Beshogur (talk) 14:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can see there is no evidence of recognition either of autonomy, or of any process to consider it. The proclamation of autonomy should certainly be mentioned, but to present it as established is misleading. Significant clean-up is required, but simple Burden can justify removal much of the problematic text. Batternut (talk) 10:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Is there consensus to clean this up? Doug Weller talk 18:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Scrub away, I say. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:13, November 8, 2017 (UTC)

Spectral Estimation of NMR Relaxation

• Spectral Estimation of NMR Relaxation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is a presentation of the work of Dr. Naugler, by a user with no other contributions, relguan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Naugler backwards. I removed some cites to OMICS, I am pretty confident this is not a policy-compliant article.

List of rampage killers

The page List of rampage killers clearly meets WP:SAL standards, but I feel there are multiple content issues on the page and on sub-pages. I'm not sure what should be done here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Is it original research to call an orbit a "trajectory"?

Earlier this year, the Orbit page redefined an orbit from a "path" to a "trajectory". The justification for this change is unclear, since all cited sources explicitly use the word "path". No reason was given for the change at the time, but recent editors are backing the use of "trajectory", asserting that "Trajectory is more accurate" and "path seems unnecessarily less specific". Are they violating Wikipedia's prohibition on original research?

Yes they are according to NASA Darkness Shines (talk) 15:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

It's probably word preciseness and less an OR piece. As that NASA page states, an orbit is usually endless , while a trajectory describes a finite path. Both are "paths" of how a body moves around another, but in terms of WP and english, the terms seem otherwise interchangeable and not an OR issue. --MASEM (t) 15:30, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Novel interpretation and analysis at Rape myths

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Rape myth#Improper tone and approach and the three short threads immediately below it (including a big deletion spree in the article); some additional editorial input (especially from NORN regulars) would be of value, since the discussion has turned circular and only involves three editors, but is rather important for this article. The first of these threads mostly focuses on NPOV concerns, but introduced the NOR one, which has developed in the threads after it. This is an old and kind of languishing article that recently got a lot of focused attention, but from too few parties.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  18:25, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Fox McCloud's legs - were they amputated?

@Idazmi:

The question is whether you can use artwork alone to argue whether a fictional character (Fox McCloud) had his legs removed despite statements from the Star Fox's programmer (Dylan Cuthbert) and the game's main producer (Shigeru Miyamoto) saying the legs were not amputated. Please see the thread at: Talk:Fox_McCloud#Legs_not_prosthetic WhisperToMe (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Nope, interpreting images to reach a contentious conclusion is definitely SYNTH. There are some clearly obvious things you can pull (he's a fox, he's orange-colored) but to try to argue his size on a box cover is due to amputation is waaaaay out of line. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Completely agree with Masem. Sergecross73 msg me 14:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Masem. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

A Wikipedia editor making this call would be OR (though perhaps stating they are metallic looking would be stating the obvious?). Relying on sources that make this call, possibly qualifying this (e.g. according to...), e.g. - [7] [8] [9] would not be OR.Icewhiz (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Ignoring the RS-ness of those sources, we'd first would have to state that "According to so-and-so, Fox's legs appear amputated..." with those sources. But let's add the fact that two of the people directly involved with the game's development have said otherwise - even if their statements come from over Twitter or other unreliable sources. It's the type of case that this shouldn't even be included unless a lot of RS carried the misinformation and we wanted to use the involved people's statements to dismiss that misinformation. But that's just not what's happening here, its a silly fringe theory that we don't need to give credence to. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

It's beyond a FRINGE theory - from a brief look here it seems this theory is all over the place - including a hip-hop artist who lost his foot referring to this. RSness for video games is an issue in general, and I agree that editors should be interpreting images by themselves, however this is a fan (and possibly Nintendo originally back in the 90s) theory of some weight.Icewhiz (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Having looked, I found [10] which is an RS for us and sufficient to mention the amputation being a fan theory that (as of 2013) never was commented on by Nintendo, but since debunked by the creators over Twitter. --MASEM (t) 16:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't use debunk to describe fictional to begin with - it is difficult to debunk a fictional detail - however other than that we're agreed.Icewhiz (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Constructal law

• • Constructal law (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article looks to me to be arguing a case entirely from primary sources, largely by the person who coined the term (around 2/3 or more of the references). Incidentally, I think Mre env (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is almost certainly closely associated with Adrian Bejan, or at least a massive fan, because that is his sole topic of interest. Guy (Help!) 22:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Is calculating a published percentage of a published number original research?

Query for deleted entry in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

The final 2 sentences of the following quote were deleted. The editor said it contained original research. The 3% and 12% figures were from a cited document and in line with other estimates from other sources cited in the article. The 13,774 figure is from government reports (which perhaps I should have cited). I made a simple arithmetic calculation of these 2 non-controvertial numbers to estimate actual numbers of incidences per year. Is this really Original Research?

"They found that 12% of rape allegations fell into the broader definition of false accusations and that 3% of the false rape allegations were identified as malicious. There were 13,774 reported rapes in 2008, suggesting 413 instances of malicious false accusations of rape with a possibility of a further 1,240 instances falling in the "questionable" range determined from the 12% bracket. The authorities convict about 20 false accusers per year.[10]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.172.136.72 (talk) 11:47, 21 November 2017

• I'd say yes, it is original research. First, you're combining numbers from two different sources and they may be using different underlying methods for estimation. Second, even if it were the same source, you don't know the accuracy of the percentages (3% or 3.5% rounded down or 2.51% rounded up or something in between). To use these percentages to back into numbers is dubious and the resulting 413, for e.g., gives a false sense of accuracy. --regentspark (comment) 14:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
• Per both RegentsPark's points, obvious original research and synthesis. —DIYeditor (talk) 16:10, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Disney XD (Europe, Middle East and Africa) (2nd nomination)

The discussion about deletion of Disney XD (Europe, Middle East and Africa) partly revolves around whether or not the channel is made up/synthesized. Given that this is a deletion discussion please post there. Spshu (talk) 22:50, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

information in source cited is an image

I've run into a situation where a source is cited, but the information cited is not in the text of the source, it is derived from observing a photograph in the article. Would this qualify as original research? One issue that springs to mind immediately is the fact that the image could be mirrored. Gabriel syme (talk) 22:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely. As noted above for Starfox, only the most obvious details can be taken from a picture, but anything else would be original research. --MASEM (t) 23:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I was leaning that way but just wanted to check. Gabriel syme (talk) 23:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

polyandry in Islam

On page of polyandry, original research is used which is not contained in the source. The source does not state that a woman can hove more than one husband at the same time, as per the definition of polyandry. But state that after dissolution of marriage and after ensuring that she is not pregnant she can marry. I have also explained on the talk page of polyandry but an editor idunious refuses to listen. Please help.for further discussion xplaination see talk page of polyand y. Source is online, anyone can see. Smatrah (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Ignore him, see when readers disagree they will check the talkpage and see that this is a name-fed claim (someones position which can't be backed). If you continue to revert him, you will be punished for nothing. Does not worth it really, main-pages change regularly, the important is that you showed the claim does not stand in talkpage (where no one will revert you). Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Both editors have probably crossed the line in to edit-warring, but I agree that this looks like original research. I have no idea about the overall quality of the translation being cited, but the quote looks pretty inscrutable to me. Regardless, this is a primary source, and it's not obvious from reading it that it is an endorsement of polyandry. Editors would need a good quality secondary source to support a claim about the practice of polyandry and/or to make anything more than a patently obvious interpretation of a text. Nblund ^talk 00:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I believe you have gotten users mixed up. Strange that all three of you seem to have made that mistake. First of all, it is not a primary source. The paragraph does not cite the original source, but the interpretation by the scholar. Besides, I have now added a source to verify the matter, which seems to resolve the issue. Gammalflamma (talk) 06:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't resolve the issue, really. I agree that this probably refers to marriage, but (as other editors have noted) its not clear whether this would qualify as polyandry or if it would be something closer to annulling a previous marriage. I can't find any source that says that this passage endorses polyandry. You need to find a reliable source for that interpretation. Nblund ^talk 14:16, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

[11]

Here is a source that is extremely clear on the issue. It says that the meaning is, you are allowed to marry women who are already married, just as stated in the paragraph. It also clearly states that it is an exception to the rule forbidding marriage to married women. It also clearly states that it is about marriage - not about carnal knowledge. [12] I do understand that this issue is a difficult one to deal with. Not liking a fact is however not a valid reason to exclude it from Wikipedia. Gammalflamma (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

""Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess"

· From this verse, it is clear that one can marry women who are already married if they constitute those from what your right hands possess (taken captive). Again, focus is on marriage, not sex for lust and they have to believing captives (Not pagans). See 4.25 above.

(Continued 004.024) "...Thus has God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers as prescribed (Arabic: faatuhunna ujurahunna faridatan); but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree mutually, there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise"

This verse makes it clear that all married women are forbidden apart from a specific exception.

Exception:

Those women who are married but have come to be captured or possessed (Ma Malakat Amanakum) are lawful are in marriage. Note this exception. But the question still remains - lawful to one in what way?

The rest of the verse clearly states that all women (including the exception - Right hands possess) have to be married (in wedlock). The legality being wedlock. Note the Arabic term: faatuhunna ujurahunna faridatan (give them their bridal due as obligation).

It is clear therefore that the intention is of wedlock not of fornication, or lust.

This seals the fate of sex with women from the category of 'right hands possess' outside marriage. These women are only lawful to one in marriage."Gammalflamma (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

National trauma

The article National trauma has no references, and I can't find any that define the term "national trauma". power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

While the concept of national trauma is a recognized concept in scholarship (see, for example, [13], [14], [15], etc.), the list of examples should be removed completely. Looking through the history, all of these examples appear to have been added by individual editors based solely on their own appreciation of the term and show a heavy WP:RECENTISM bias. Such examples as November 2015 Paris attacks for France, every example listed for India, Assassination of Pim Fortuyn and Assassination of Theo van Gogh for Netherlands, etc. etc. appear to meet no definition beyond, "somebody died and it was in the news a lot." Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Fully agree and I've removed them. Doug Weller talk 18:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I've re-written the page completely. It is now fully-cited and the list of examples has been trimmed to a citeable selection. Since this term seems most prominent in U.S. scholarship, there is a bias of the list to US-centric traumas. Any sourcable additions for other nations are invited and encouraged. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:57, 1 December 2017 (UTC)