Talk:Croissant

Viennese?

Not French, Austrian/Hungarian. ((unsigned, undated))

Well, the other story I heard was that it was created during a siege of Vienna by Ottomans but it would have been way posterior to the French invention... JidGom 11:41 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

"The Croissant is french"

The croissant is not french or hungarian. The original ``croissant`` was made in Romania and they named it ``chifla``. To quote wikipedia: "Alan Davidson, editor of the Oxford Companion to Food states that no printed recipe for the present-day croissant appears in any French recipe book before the early 20th century; the earliest French reference to a croissant he found was among the "fantasy or luxury breads" in Payen's Des substances alimentaires, 1853." ((unsigned, undated))

If this is the case, why is the croissant labelled on the page as "French", and its Vienna origins filed under "Legends"? Shall I fix? ((unsigned, undated))

Do you have evidence that the croissant is Viennese? --Macrakis 16:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Well living in Vienna that is certainly the story one hears. Having discussed the concept with a French friend he pointed out that the french word for pastry is Viennoiserie. The word having an obvious relationship with Vienna. ((unsigned, undated))

Not exactly. The French word for pastry is pâtisserie. Viennoiserie designates more specifically the kind of things, such as croissants, that are done in puff pastry, and possibly some other pastries such as brioche. David.Monniaux 13:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Viennoiserie" denotes bread-like products which are richer and sweeter because they include eggs, butter, milk, cream, sugar, etc. (see French wikipedia), unlike normal French bread (in fact, the unqualified word "pain" is legally restricted to bread made with flour, water, yeast, and salt -- no sugar, no milk, etc.). They are yeast-based and often flaky. They include croissant, brioche, pain au chocolat (called chocolat croissant in America), raisin bread, etc. As always, just because they're called "Viennoiserie" doesn't mean that any of them or all of them come from Vienna -- they may have been thought of as Viennese, or inspired by Viennese foods, or simply associated with Viennese style. Compare champignons à la grecque, oeufs florentins, macedoine de fruits, homard a l'americaine, etc. --Macrakis 16:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

So the question is now - where is the evidence that the croissant is French?

There is a story in Romania that the croissant was invented in Bucharest because the romanian bakers wanted to make bread,so they spreaded the dough.Someone came in and shouted "the turks are coming!" so they packed it again.The second day the same.And the other day the same. That is how the croissant was invented. [UNSIGNED POST?]

To the degree that evidence exists, the first documented period references seem to be in France (c. 1850). Legends appear to exist in other countries, but without period evidence that's all they are: legends. But this does not definitively mean the food was invented in France, only that enough research has focused on that country to tease out what evidence does exist. Now that Europeana is up, maybe readers of other national languages will start to find other evidence?69.237.239.246 (talk) 17:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Puff pastry?

I actually believe that the Croissant is not made of puff pastry. The difference is that puff pastry uses only butter layers to generate lift, while Croissants layer the butter into a yeast dough. Again, this is not to be confused with a Brioche which has a high content of butter within a yeast/bread dough, but not incorporated through layering. ((unsigned, undated))

Article corrected in June to mention that it is similar to puff pastry, but with a yeast dough. --Macrakis 16:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

"Chifla", this word mean in romanian, "little bread", that is not always too little or not like bread at the taste. So, "chifla" can be: a little bread, a little thing that looks like a little bread but have a sweet taste... just lika a croissant.

Explanation

Am I the only one who thinks this sentence doesn't make sense? Can someone clarify? ... it was invented in Vienna in 1683 to celebrate the defeat of the Turkish siege of the city, as a reference to the crescents on the Turkish flags, when bakers staying up all night heard the tunneling operation and gave the alarm.

No, you aren't. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.239.90 (talk) 06:57, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The Croissant is far older than the Siege of Vienna!

The tradition of making bakery shaped like the croissant goes further back than the 1600s here in Europe: especially in monestairies in the cities of Europe, monks and nuns has had traditions of making rolls with shapes of animals and symbols to be handed out to the poor and needing. The most well known is the shape today known as the symbol of bakers world wide derived from the way the nuns cross their hands while praying. The croissant is called 'cornetti' in italian, as it is the shape of horns of domestic animals , and as such it is known in northern europe, as symbol of a goat, and then also as the horned devil himself. The shape of the croissant is thus known several centuries before the Siege of Vienna, but the name indicating a crescent moon may have a 'newer' history...

real croissant

That croissant looks like an American croissant, not a real European one. Does someone have a better picture? loulou 15:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

all it claims to be is "a croissant." Therefore i would say it's a fine picture. Philmcl 17:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Polish invention to commemorate an AD732 victory at Tours?

Hardly. I can tell that Poles had not heard of any Muslim defeat of 732 until some 2 centuries later. There were no Poles at that time (nor Poland for that matter), only a bunch of Slavic tribes ruled by local chieftains, that became gradually incorporated into the political organism ruled by Mieszko I, who was baptized with his court in AD966, bringing his land and people into West European circles. Before that the only tangible knowledge of the West for Poles was a taste of German steel. In contrast, it is conceivable that they invented croissants to commemorate a Vienna victory, as it was Polish army led by King Sobieski who expelled Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.158.7.12 (talk • contribs)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

romanian?

if you ever watched movie "The Terminal" you could see story about Croissant "from romania". what's about that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.17.177 (talk) 12:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Relation to Ben Franklin

I was doing some research a few weeks back, and the article said the croissant like Americans think of it was the invention of Ben Franklin...I think he modified a French pastry, or something to that extent. Was this claim bogus because it has been removed from the article. (unsigned comment)

Seems like a bizarre claim, especially since the croissant isn't documented from before the late 19th century in either the US or France! --Macrakis (talk) 00:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Rosemary: A Christmas Story

In no way talks about a woman named Sir Lady Consula Alana Dingo Fox Trot Cornwall... Nor does it allude that the Croissant was named after her... Surely this is bogus wiki information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.137.224 (talk) 10:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Removed "named for the famous culinary artist K. Noelle Croissant" as it was unsourced. Rojomoke (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Kipfel should have its own section, not be a redirect

The croissant originated from the kipfel, but they went their own ways long ago. The kipfel can be dipped in nuts, stuffed, etc. in a way that has only recently happened with the croissant. And I believe it is NOT made from puff pastry. On top of which, there's an article for the HUNGARIAN version of the kipfel (itself based on the Austrian version) and if anything "kipfel" should redirect to that. But really it should be the reverse. 69.237.237.62 (talk) 16:39, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Update the German Wikipedia?

The German Wikipedia has what seems to be a translation of an old version of this entry. Which is something of a shame, since subsequent changes highlight the Austrian role in all this. Anyone fluent enough to fix it? 69.237.236.127 (talk) 21:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

CROISSANT MYTHS

The origin of the croissant is one of the great food legends of all time.

Many people have heard that the croissant was created in 1686 in Budapest, Hungary by a courageous and watchful baker, at a time when the city was being attacked by the Turks. Working late one night, he heard odd rumbling noises and alerted the city's military leaders. They found that the Turks were trying to get into the city by tunnelling under the city's walls. The tunnel was destroyed and the baker was a hero, but a humble hero — all he wanted in reward was the sole right to bake a special pastry commemorating the fight. The pastry was shaped like a crescent, the symbol of Islam, and presumably meant that the Hungarians had eaten the Turks for lunch.

The problem with this story is that it's all made up.

The story first showed up in the first version of the great French food reference Larousse Gastronmique, in 1938. Later on, the story switched locations to Vienna, during the Turkish siege there in 1863, but that was also a fabrication

The truth about croissant

The sad thing is, the truth of croissant in this case is not nearly as interesting as the myth. No one knows when or where the first croissant was baked, but it was definitely in France and certainly not before 1850. The word was first used in the great Littre dictionary (1863). The first croissant recipe was published in 1891, but it wasn't the same kind of croissant we are familiar with today, described as an oriental pastry made of pounded almonds and sugar. The first recipe that would produce what we consider to be a croissant wasn't published until 1905 in, Colombie's Nouvelle Encyclopedie culinaire, and again, it was in France. The development croissant into a national symbol of France, is a 20th-century history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel.pichler (talk • contribs) 02:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The existing article already debunks the Budapest story. As for the other claims, do you have reliable sources for them? --Macrakis (talk) 13:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I just reverted an edit that changed the place of origin from France to Austria, but now I'm second guessing myself. After looking at this talk page and googling a bit, I'm now wondering if place of origin should be removed from the infobox altogether, since there will never be a consensus on the question. Leschnei (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The problem I'm having with the French origin question is that people are specifically looking for the word "crescent" or "croissant" in history which can mislead the researcher. Just because one can't find a reference to the word "croissant" tied to pastries until 1863 in a dictionary, or actually find any recipe tied to the word croissant until 1905 doesn't mean the pastry itself did not exist outside of France or under another name (French or not). 1905 seems too late, considering other similar puff pastries in the 19th. century. Unless you want to claim that puff pastries can only be French 2605:6000:EF4D:2100:8B6:BD62:A4A:D8F3 (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Croissant form

Missing a topic about the form of the croissant. The first picture for the "supposed" french croissant is leading to confusion as it is not the best representative form of a "croissant", the "Lye croissants in Southern Germany" is more representative of the form of the "french" croissant (croissant de lune for a poetic image).

Minor, but well everything is about form and taste .... especially when you dip your croissant in a coffee :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.80.101.137 (talk) 02:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Subtitle "Spread of the croissant"

The subtitle "spread of the croissant" is ambiguous, because it could be taken to be a reference to the spread one should put on a croissant. Perhaps this article should point out that there is no need to spread croissants with butter, as they contain butter in any case. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

crescent was not used before Ottoman empire

crescent is not used by Omayyad and Abbasid empires in first 900 years of Islam,so there are no crescent symbol when Muslims reach France.

Article vandalism

This article is being constantly vandalised! Should it be locked? True bugman (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

History

The History section needs to be rewritten. Using the Food Timeline is fine as a way of finding sources is fine, but using it as a source when all it is doing is quoting other, better, authors is poor practice. Attributing the OCF's conclusions about croissants to Alan Davidson, its editor, is also wrong. The 'croissant' article in the OCF is in fact signed HY = Philip and Mary Hyman, not by Davidson. The history section mixes up incompatible stories as though they were all one story. Unless someone gets to it first, I'll re-edit this when I have some time.... --Macrakis (talk) 03:05, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Croissant/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Good start so far, but needs refs as far as I'm concerned. Hard choice between Start and B Class though. -- Warfreak 09:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC) The 30-40% figure for "industrially-made" croissants is massively underestimated in my view. It's extremely difficult now in Paris to find a croissant that is NOT industrial. I would put the figure up closer to 85%-90%. It's painful to try a new bakery only to discover that once again, you're basically eating something that is mass produced! Tob (talk) 13:24, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:24, 6 September 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 12:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Croissant Physical Properties

This article could use a section on how a croissant is made. Someone could add an ingredient list and then describe what each ingredient does. How a croissant is baked can be included as well as what happens during baking. Julia033 (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Origin, yet again

I just reverted an edit that changed the place of origin from France to Austria, but now I'm second guessing myself. After looking at this talk page and googling a bit, I'm now wondering if place of origin should be removed from the infobox altogether, since there will never be a consensus on the question. Leschnei (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Read my comments on the "CROISSANT MYTHS" section, and in the "Croissant in Mexico?" sections. Note I wrote on the possibility that the Croissant arrived in Mexico in the 1860s (under a different name perhaps). The lack of consensus is because sources are extremely scarce and people are very possessive about the origin of the pastry, with all deference to out French friends. Looking for a very specific name (crescent) is deceptive when the pastry could have had any name under the sun outside of France.

What if it came to France later in the 19th. C? What is the proof that it did not exist outside of France? Read my "Croissant in Mexico" comment to see why. What if by some weird chance I find a similar recipe on the menu for Emperor Maximilian and Empress Carlota's table in Mexico before 1867? What then? Is it the Austrian Kipfrl? A Belgian version perhaps? Or a French Croissant? Sounds crazy, but's not an entirely outlandish idea. There's so little data on the web, that I'm currently looking at historical records from the Mexican national university (UNAM) to see if I find which kinds of pastries were imported and served at the royal table table in 1867. I know puff pastry was definitely known by then.

It's likely that claiming a particular national origin for the Croissant may be impossible in this case.

I would refrain from claiming it as having a very specific national origin without actual scholarly references (and even those are in question). I for one, wouldn't write anything about Mexico until I find some proof - though perhaps I could just state that the Croissant is a "well known" pastry in Mexico and has an unknown date of import from an unknown Austrian/French/Belgian source sometime during the 19th. C. 2605:6000:EF4D:2100:8B6:BD62:A4A:D8F3 (talk) 11:07, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Why removed from the icon picture

I don't know why you remove the picture of crossiant and coffee , because this picture is have the crossiant Geoffreyrabbit (talk) 13:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

No mention of the Croissant in Mexico?

I was reading the article and I'm a bit saddened by the complete lack of mention of the Mexican version of the Croissant. Zero. Zip. I was wondering if any of the people who wrote here have stumbled on anything about Mexico and Croissants in their research. There is more history on the Croissant out there, and it likely happens around the 1860s (same time period as US Civil War).

I was raised in Mexico and knew (as common knowledge) that the sugar-glazed version of the Croissant is part of a repertoire of pastries imported into Mexican cuisine, likely between the two French Interventions (invasions) in the 19th. C (both happening after Mexico's independence from Spain in 1821). Other pastry examples which were imported and adapted to Mexican cuisine are the Vol-au-vent (known as "Bolovan" in Mexico), and the Palmieres (known as "Orejas"), both involving puff pastry. According to the very few foodie websites (mostly Mexican) that I've seen talk about it, these pastries were definitely present in Mexico before 1870 if not earlier. By the way, since you mention it, "Continental Breakfast" is also considered typical-Mexican and similarly attributed to be a French cultural import.

The "Cuernos" (horns) as the Mexicans call the Croissant, is popularly assumed to have been brought by Prince Maximilian of Austria a/k/a Emperor Maximilian I and his wife Carlota of Austria during the 2nd French Intervention in Mexico of 1861-67 (multiple articles for all of these subjects are found in Wiki). Whether French or Austrian in origin, I guess it probably doesn't matter, because Emperor Maximilian was Austrian, Carlota was Belgian, plus the invading force was French - so you have three "vectors" for the pastry to come into Mexico, so to speak. Most importantly, Empress Carlota was famous for bringing in teams of French chefs to "modernize" Mexican cuisine at the time - this is the part of French food legacy in Mexico that is actually written in history text books you study at school.

According to at least one website, it's also possible these pastries came during peacetime sometime between 1821 and 1867, just like pancake Crepes did ("Crepas"), as a wave of Europeans - mostly Italians (pastries) and French plus a few Germans (beer)- immigrated to Mexico looking to establish business ventures and new fortunes.

Unfortunately, finding sources for this material, while not impossible, is a bit hard, because the sources on the period tend to be written in Mexican foodie websites (i.e. non-academic), and usually history text books (the easy sources you can find) don't talk about specific food dishes, so before I could even dare to write anything concrete on French-Mex puff pastries, I have to go out and hunt for my sources to back up the information I've known since I was a child. Perhaps find some Mexican cookbooks of the period?

Hence I'm just writing this entry to raise awareness of the issue, and to perhaps see if any one here wants to contribute and pick on the subject (some erudite foodie history buff out there among you?).

Thanks in advance,

JW

2605:6000:EF4D:2100:8B6:BD62:A4A:D8F3 (talk) 09:10, 3 January 2018 (UTC)