Talk:Justice Party (South Korea)

Social democracy dispute in artcle Justice Party

See the history in my talk page. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 03:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I can't see what the issue is here. The party calls itself a social democratic party. Your whole spiel about "Social democracy of Korean style (한국형 사민주의) is not Social democracy" is unconvincing. Indeed, Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought it is not for you to decide whether "Social democracy of Korean style (한국형 사민주의) is not Social democracy". I read the articles you linked - my Korean is mediocre, so bare with me- and it seems like some of them are arguing that the party is Marxist-Leninist? “지금은 사라진 구 통합진보당은 아예 사민주의랑은 거리가 있고, 정의당은 사민주의를 포기한 사람들이다. 통진당은 주체사상이고, 정의당은 마르크스-레닌주의라는 차이가 있을 뿐이다.”[1] My problem with using "Reformism" in describing political parties ideology is that it barely means anything in political context. It doesn't really matter what it means in South Korean terminology, you can edit Korean Wikipedia if you so wish. It is Wikipedia's function to convey information and "Reformism" barely has any meaning, so is "Progressivism" btw, unless you are describing political party from 19th century, those words do not really convey any information. I'm honestly baffled by this apparent extreme adherence to social democratic ideology you are showing at the latter part of the talk page. Seems like you are the one who keeps changing people's edit to fit within your own conception of how the page should be. Almost every other Wikipedia page of the party describes it as "Social Democratic". Sadfccolmalme (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

See the User talk:Garam#Justice Party (South Korea). Thanks. --Garam (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

A) So-called reformism was a label used by the revolutionary marxists during the Second International to denigrate social democratic currents headed by Bernstein in SPD. Usage of "Reformism" as a distinct ideology from the social democratic position; especially in left-wing context, is simply not done. It's like putting "tankie" instead of Marxist-Leninism or "trot" instead of Trotskyism when describing revolutionary left ideologies.

B) My Korean is not perfect but the article cited to support the existence of an internal faction that supports Democratic Socialism clearly states that this "Progressive Left" group calls for Democratic Socialist platform several times in the article. You literally read only the headline. From the article: "‘진보좌파’는 창립선언문에서 민주적 사회주의 노선을 견지하면서 정의당이 진보 시민과 노동을 결합하여 노동 중심의 진보좌파 정당으로 정의당이 발전할 수 있도록 노력하겠다고 밝히고 있다." "하나, 우리 모임은 대한민국을 헬조선으로 만들고 있는 시장 만능의 신자유주의를 극복하고 노동 중심의 민주주의와 다양한 소수자의 권리를 구현하는 연대적 평등사회 건설을 지향하는 ‘민주적 사회주의’ 노선을 견지할 것입니다." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.232.11 (talk) 03:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

@172.58.232.11: I think, you still have not read previous talk. Already I said in previous talk, the opinions like "A)" in your opinion (e.g. Usage of "Reformism" as a distinct ideology from the social democratic position in South Korea) is original research. And I also said in previous talk,

Finally, "Reformism" means "사회개량주의", and "개혁주의" in South Korea. I don't know why do you think ill of "Reformism" (as "사회개량주의"). And the ideology of Justice Party is surely 'reformism' and "progressivism" in their platform (Please, search the "개혁" & "진보", "혁신" in the link).
— the previous talk in my talk page

For "B)" in your opinion, Justice Party have so many opinion groups and internal factions. But according to Redian, "Jinbojwapa" (lit. Progressive Left; 진보좌파) is opinion group, not internal faction. So, we cannot add the "Jinbojwapa"'s ideology.

For this reasons, I was revert your edits. Please do not revert it before this talk has finished. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

LOL Just read the entirety of the debate - that you've deleted- and I'm not even doing that. This is the worst case of railroading and goal-post moving that I've ever seen.I don't know what kind of obsession you have with this party, but not a good look, mate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1382:8A:18F1:FE4B:DD16:A787 (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I think, it is prejudice for me. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Spring3390: Do you remember this? Then, please don't revert my edits. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 19:04, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that a lot more references has been presented- including third-party academic literature- and you've been simply rejecting them and enforcing quite narrow deifinition that only you seem to approve atm. Also, seeing that the page has "Expand Korean" tag, I tried to translate the Korean article. It seems like there has been a long concensus in including Social Democracy among the party's ideology in the Korean page. Seeing the Korean page would have higher scrutiny for their own page for the "Justice Party" than english stub article, it seems more prudent to defer judgement on the Korean editors. Spring3390 (talk) 19:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Spring3390: Where is "academic literature" for "Justice Party", not some people in that party? I asked all the time, "where is source?". And Korean wikipedia cannot do as source. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

January, 2018

Read the talk page, article cited clearly describes Justice Party as "social-democratic", That said, the current incarnation of South Korea’s social-democratic party, the Justice Party, the article is written by Owen Miller, Korean History Professor at SOAS with focus on social and economic history of 19th and 20th century Korea; urban history; Korean nationalist and Marxist historiographies; the economic history of North Korea; and state formation in Northeast Asia. Jacobin is a widely respected American left-wing magazine. The cited article is sound. I believe this settles the controversy around "social democratic" designation of this party unless Garam can come up with an at least equally authoritative source that argues against it.

Another issue Garam seems to have is an assertion that "Opinion Group is not a faction"? Not sure what this means. Is this an original research? 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 07:26, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

First, your link is broken. Second, where is source about "Opinion Group is a faction"? And please see above the talk. Already I said. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 07:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Link: https://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff31439.php Well, where is the source for Garam to claim that "Opinion Group is not a faction" in a flippant undoing of edit done by HapHaxion? You have not adressed single issues raised by my comment. Talks above were meaningless semantic fights based on various different Korean sources. Directly rebut the authority of this source- the Jacobin article- if you want to create a concesus for this page. You are simply unwilling to engage in the debate. Read the talk page guideline before answering like that. 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 07:47, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And about your edits; nowhere can I find any data to "social democracy" in link 2. And JACOBIN (part "Left Prospects" of [2]) said, "That said, the current incarnation of South Korea’s social-democratic party, the Justice Party, had the best showing of any left-wing party in the recent elections." only. This also now nowhere can I find any data to "why Justice Party is social-democratic party". Also, if you think that "opinion group = faction", please give sources for your opinion at the first. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 07:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

And see WP:3RR. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 07:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Stop moving the goal post here, since it seems like your original objection against the link 2 seems to be that the "Social Democracy in Korean context" is not a "Social Democracy" which is on its own your original research. However, we can disregard the link 2 if you like. However, please do show me any rules on the Wikipedia edit that says the article has to show "why Justice Party is social-democratic party". Because what I see is an a Reliable Source that describes the party as the "social-democratic" party. Why does the source have to mention why it is a social democratic party? The source on its own stands itself. 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 08:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Edited to reflect Garam and my point. Is current page enough to achieve the concensus? 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 08:17, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think, you still have not read above the talk. At first, please see above the talk (with link of user talk page). Thanks. --Garam (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

And this edit is over 3RR. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 08:20, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I've read the talk multiple times. The preceding talk is irrelevant, because we are not talking about the definition or semantics of Social democracy in Korea. This is a new, authorative, english source [3] that clearly states that the Justice Party is the "social-democratic" party. Either rebut the claim, using your own authorative source, or dispute the authority of the writer or the publication. Any other discussion is uncessary and irrelevant. 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 08:30, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I said to you, where can I find link between "Social democracy" and "Justice Party" in JACOBIN. This does not mean JACOBIN does not report "South Korea’s social-democratic party, the Justice Party". Do you understand my point? Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:27, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

And "의견 그룹" (opinion group) is a level lower than "정파" (faction) in Korean politics. See #1 and #2. Also, you can search for these differences in Google. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:46, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Wha....What? the link between Social democracy and Justice Party in the Jacobin article is rather self-evident, no? It's a basic grammer. The author wrote "South Korea's social-democratic party" to describe the Justice Party. Social-democratic party usually means that the party adheres to the principles of Social Democracy, like how "conservative party" adheres to the idea of conservatism, and how "liberal party" adheres to the idea of liberalism. If you are somehow saying that calling a party "social-democartic party" doesn't mean that the party's politcal position could be described as "social democracy", than I'm afraid that is an uterrly meaningless semantic.

On the second point, I have no quibble with the statement, I'm sure you know more about the structure of the Korean political party than me. Unless @HapHaxion wants to contest that point, I'll consider that matter closed. Thanks 2604:2000:1382:8A:2DB9:4B3E:7258:9E0 (talk) 14:26, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that well sourced material shouldn't be reverted without a majority consensus. May seek dispute resolution/mediation/community input judging by prior discussions. HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 16:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Questions 1) Should social democracy be added as one of the party's ideologies in the infobox with sources as presented above (on the talk page)/in reverted edits and in a previous discussion on Garam's talk page?

2)Should the democratic socialist "opinion group" within the party be considered a faction and have it's ideology described as such in the infobox as well?

HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 19:04, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

1) I've engaged with Garam previously on this precise subject. In my opinion, further sources - including the Jacobin article- puts the discussion on the social democratic nature of the Justice party to the rest. Furthermore, party constitution/ manifesto that I've partially translated for the page - under "ideology" - shows clear social democratic/ democratic socialist polcies being advocated, including "democratic control of the capitalistic excess through the implementation of economic democracy and public ownership of basic utilities" and advocation of creation of a welfare state.

2) I'm less sure on. The assertion by Garam that there is some kind of strict hirearchy between "faction" and "opinion group" is patently ridiculous, however, I'm not sure if the "Progressive Left" group has enough of a claut within the party to be considered as a significant faction. The Korean wikipedia article does shows that a motion to rename the party to "Democratic Socialist Party" was defeated by 69-31 in 2016.

Spring3390 (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2018 (UTC)