Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Comparison to other accidents

I saw the "Accident Trivia" section on the old talk page. I respect everyone's opinion. But I feel that comparing this to other accidents IS important for various reasons: 1. Other articles do list the death toll and compare them to other aviation accidents, while this one doesn't list any except for MH370. 2. In a no survivors crash, the word "all" is usually typed up in parenthesis next to the # of fatalities, whic is to prevent confusion. I don't know why, but some poeple feel that the "all" is unnecessary, but I think with out it, it would be confusing, so therefore, it is necessary! Also I typed this into the article multiple times, but people kept removing it (no offense to them by the way):

"The 298 death toll also makes MH17 the deadliest accident in the history of Malaysia Airlines, the deadliest aviation accident to occur in Ukraine, the deadliest aviation accident involving the Boeing 777, and (as of March 2018) the deadliest aviation accident of the 21st century."

So what do you think. do you agree or disagree? Be honest!Tigerdude9 (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

No objection. But I realise some editors see it as a waste of effort. Perhaps it's best left to the List of Accidents (and other?) tables? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I disagree with addition of further trivia, as have other editors. There is already a trivia sentence in the lead: "The crash is the deadliest airliner shootdown, seventh-deadliest aviation disaster, and was Malaysia Airlines' second aircraft loss during 2014 after the disappearance of Flight 370 on 8 March.[5]". As for the "(all)" - there is already "survivors = 0" in the infobox. It is redundant to double it up. Stickee (talk) 22:56, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, you are right. the long part about MH17 being the deadliest of the 21st century is too much and should either: not be there at all and have the trivia remain the same, edited to be ample, or just put the whole thing on the bottom. of the top page. To be honest I think I'm just going to with the first option.

However, if I do make another edit about death tolls (which I probably won't), would the following be considered ample? "The crash is also the deadliest accident involving the Boeing 777." I noticed that for an article on the deadliest accident involving a certain type of aircraft the article usually says it is the deadliest involving said type of aircraft. But as I said earlier, I'm not trying to bloat up the trivia or cause further confusion. Thank you.Tigerdude9 (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's an opinionated mini-essay about what I would consider to be trivia, and what I wouldn't. What is trivia: Generally, trivia are factoids that may be true but whose truth value have no discernable consequence in the real world. One way to create trivia is the misuse of categorization to create a potentially unlimited number of meaningless comparisons. I don't consider it trivia to mention that Malaysia Airlines lost two airliners in 2014, because there were real-world (financial) consequences of that fact for the airline, and because it's likely that some readers may get these events confused. So for those reasons I wouldn't consider that factoid to be trivia, it's actually kind of useful because I consider these two MH accidents to be a natural category. I would consider "deadliest accident in an even-numbered year" to be trivia because it would be based on an artificial category. "Deadliest accident ever", if it were true, would be a natural category and therefore more likely to have meaning.

In practice, not all trivia is bad, but much of it is. Ultimately whether an item of trivia should be mentioned or not depends on whether sources are discussing it, and how much depth of coverage it gets. Usually, they don't tend to cover lists of deadliest accidents much. There are lots of sources talking about this incident, few if any are worried about where this ranks in terms of 777 accidents, so there's no strong reason to mention this. Yes, there are online databases for enthusiasts, where you can find this information if you seek it out. Those sites are potentially usable as sources, especially if you have a list article that is designed to rank things. But since few other sources care about these comparisons, it should generally be left out of the main article. "Deadliest Accident Ever" is something that sources will probably discuss widely, so that would be included. How widespread a factoid is being discussed in reliable sources is the most important thing in determining whether a factoid should be included in a Wikipedia article, the term for this principle is "Weight". In theory, this means that the decision about what is "important" or not is made by sources and not Wikipedia editors.

It's my personal opinion that an ideal article would cover everything that has sufficient weight, and no more. I believe that not all information is equally useful, and that useful facts are actually made less useful when they're buried in irrelevant ones--even if all the facts are verifiable and known to be true. Not everyone necessarily sees it that way. In practice, when using the Weight criterion, different editors disagree about what has Weight and what doesn't, and how much Weight things seem to have, and this often gives rise to debates until some kind of agreement (consensus) is reached between a majority of editors. The harder it was to get consensus on something, the less friendly and welcoming established editors will usually be towards anyone that tries to change it! Also the editors that wrote one article may have had nothing to do with another article, so expect some variation between articles. This subject matter has a lot of geopolitical overtones, so there may be less overlap between this particular group of editors and the ones that might be editing an article about some crash caused by pilot error than you might expect.

I don't know why so many crash articles have "(all)" mentioned when it isn't necessary for encyclopedic prose. A plausible hypothesis is that the editors who write aviation articles may be more likely than others to be culturally/habitually attuned to the importance of redundancy in mission critical checklists. I don't see how that would confuse anyone, but if this weren't a Wikipedia article and actual lives were depending on all the numbers tallying, then I would feel differently about it. Geogene (talk) 20:16, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Keep in mind that MH17 was not an accident, it was shot down, so any comparisons to aviation accidents is not really relevant. Also we have a consensus to not write "all" and "survivors = 0", as it is redundant. - Ahunt (talk) 20:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I concur, although I'm not convinced it was actually fully intended to shoot down a passenger airliner. We don't tend to compare civil disasters with wartime ones. In the UK maritime world RMS Titanic and RMS Lusitania are not really usefully compared, are they? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Capitalization

Is "Russian Government" a proper noun as a whole? Or is "Russian" an adjective and "government" a noun? It matters for capitalization. The article is presently at variance with itself. Heptor (talk) 23:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Googling site:en.wikipedia.org "russian government" reveals that most don't capitalise the word "government". Stickee (talk) 07:43, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Since Russian is derived from the proper noun Russia, I'd think it will always have a capital letter. In British English you'll often find Government with a capital g. But Wikipedia likes to have special rules on capitalisation. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I googled a bit more. It seems like in many cases the word "Government" is capitalized when the writer is within the jurisdiction of that government. In other words, when the writer feels like it's his or her own Government it feels more natural to write it with a capital G, but when it's somebody else's government, the proper adjective[1] is often used to clarify which government the writer has in mind. Based on that I'd argue that Wikipedia should never capitalize the G for any government, since Wikipedia aims to be WP:Global. Heptor (talk) 00:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Intercepts

Regarding the two (currently last) sentences in the lead: "In late July 2014, communications intercepts were made public in which, it is claimed, separatists are heard discussing an aircraft that they had downed.[21][22][23][24] A video from the crash site, recorded by the rebels and obtained by the News Corp Australia, shows the first rebel soldiers to arrive at the crash site. At first they assumed that the downed aircraft was a Ukrainian military jet, and were dismayed when they started to realise that it was a civilian airliner. [25]". I suspect that the intercepts and the video of the crash published by the rebels are the same. Heptor (talk) 09:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

They're different. Follow the links and you can listen to the intercept and watch the video. Stickee (talk) 07:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Heptor (talk) 00:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Last paragraph

I think the last paragraph [Ed: in the lead] should be moved to the "Aftermath" section. The lead is definitely longer than four well-formed paragraphs. Also, as written, the lead seems to go out of its way to mention the word "Russia" as many times as possible, so it kindof reads like propaganda. There were a few other propagandist devices that I cleaned up recently, essentially using guilt-by-association: [2], [3]. I'm very concerned that it stayed in the articles for so long. Heptor (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I removed most of the excessive use of "Russia"[4], so it doesn't look too bad now in that sense. Still too long though. Heptor (talk) 11:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I now moved the paragraph to the "Aftermath" section as "discussed" above. We should be extra careful about giving descriptions like this undue weight, since it vaguely insinuates guilt. As per above, a Wikipedia article shouldn't read like propaganda for either side. Heptor (talk) 10:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: These changes were surely "proposed", but not actually "discussed", as far I was able to find. (Personally I've noticed some changes made earlier, but haven't really noticed all what was going on in the article in the last few days.) As for the what's due and what's undue, it can work both ways: move of the Malaysian UNSC proposal (vetoed by Russia) from intro to "Aftermath": it seemed to me to be a pretty notable event in the context of the whole incident, so moving it into the section "Aftermath", without prior establishing general consensus, and under pretense of copy-editing, seems to me to be a rather large change. And attempts to remove allegedly "excessive" use of words "Russia/Russian" can also be seen in another way - Russian connection was usually pretty well supported by sources quoted (as I skimmed the changes), and it usually served to make more clear what forces were meant in the given context - so their removal can be also seen as an attempt to tone down the Russian involvement, which could be a case of wp:FALSEBALANCE. Not that I'm going to revert the changes, but I'd not going to oppose anyone who would like to review them in greater detail.-ז62 (talk) 20:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi ז62. Thank you for your comment. I wrote "discussed" in quotations marks somewhat ironically since I didn't get any responses to my post. I don't mind to re-open the topic, which of course deserves a thorough debate. That being said, I think the lead is reasonably balanced as it stands now: the Russian involvement is mentioned and thoroughly discussed, it's just that the word "Russia" isn't mentioned twice in every sentence as you can find in some Ukrainian sources, e.g. the public announcement by Yatsenyuk that is quoted in the article. Copy-editing is a valid supplementary argument, not a pretense: the lead was (still is) too long by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section. My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident. This is at best an oversimplification: the DPR allowed observers unrestricted access to the crash site and also collaborated with the investigation in other manners. So this paragraph, when standing by itself and given a lot of weight, seems to create a one-sided impression of the situation to a less than fully diligent reader, thus violating WP:NPOV. Heptor (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not about your opinion of balance, it's about whether the article's balance matches that of reliable sources. Stickee (talk) 10:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

"Russia" and "Russian" served to identify clearly what side/forces etc. were meant (for the same purpose as "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian" are used there), in a quite complicated structure of sentences, depicting quite convoluted sequence of events, with involvement of forces of Ukraine, Russia and "pro-Russian-though-officially-not-supported insurgents" - not to assign any sort of blame on Russia as you for some reason imagined, in an undoubtedly well intentioned, but not quite so well thought through attempt at the article improvement.

What I mean - one-sided removal of words "Russia"/"Russian" do not improve readability of the intro, and their retaining would do not compromise balance of the intro in any way, as they serve merely to clarify/clearly identify what side/forces were meant, as supported by references.

Your mention of Ukrainian sources does not seem to be related to the copyediting of the English Wikipedia at all. Can you please clarify why you mentioned them?

'My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident.

No, it clearly states that the Russian government vetoed the 2015 proposal to prosecute those deemed responsible. Your concerns about possible misinterpretation seem to be a bit overreaacting and what disturbs me is your barely hidden intent to protect Russian government against even such a far-fetched possibility you somehow imagined.

You should also perhaps re-consider if the word re-open [the topic] is really appropriate here, as so far it hasn't been closed, and it would be pointless to think othwerwise.--ז62 (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello ז62. I agree that this topic needs to be debated I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed. The MH17 shoot-down happened in a war zone; the organizations connected to the crash put a great effort to avoid blame and shift it to others. At the risk of assuming a POV not everyone will agree with, I think there is plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of ways to present it. This would include at least the following parties:

• The DPR separatists. One can frame their actions as wilful targeting of civilians, as negligent use of advanced weaponry, or as an accident despite reasonable efforts under difficult conditions.
• Russian government. They provided the weapon that was used; some will also dispute that DPR is a separate entity from the Russian government.
• Ukrainian government. They directed civilian airliners into a war zone when there was very little practical need to do it; this can be viewed as an error perhaps by some official in the air traffic control, or it can be as wilful and malicious attempt to protect the Ukrainian Air Force by mixing it with the civilian traffic.
• Malaysian airlines. They flew an airliner into a zone of (aerial) combat, when there was little practical need to do so.

If you may pardon the apparent grandiloquence of the following, I am of course concerned about protecting the Russian government from undue blame as much as I am concerned about protecting everyone else. Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened. This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge. Heptor (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Shame that the Russian government doesn't share your wish not to create a 'false impression' isn't it. Keep up the good work seeking not to expose the Russian government to undue blame, it seems hard to believe that Putin, Lavrov et al aren't being as honest as possible. Ha, ha. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)a short history of mh 17 on wikipedia and elsewhere [5]

@Heptor:

I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed

Then perhaps you should check a dictionary. It would also possibly help you with any legitimate copyediting work you'd attempt to undertake, on this article or elsewhere.

I would not comment at great length on all you wrote above (as it would be straying from the original issue - i.e. your excessive removal of the words "Russia/Russian" while claiming only copyediting concerns - to the events themselves), but my original point remains - you seem to be rather disturbingly concerned with protecting the Russian government ("and any other", except that you only removed mentions of "Russia/Russian" you didn't like/deemed "excessive").

Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened.

Exactly my point - except that your excessive removals of words "Russia/Russian" can be easily interpreted in this, as these mostly served there to identify what side/forces were meant, not your imagined attempts to assign some undue blame. I would not say your edits were trying to obscure what happened, as I assume you meant quite well, but I can't see why you think they improved the article.

This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge.

Well, for some reasons you're still avoiding some of the questions I've raised above. I mean, you can not seriously think that even the most superficially reading can mistake the 2015 UNSC resolution proposal for 2014 investigation - as you seem to believe? Please also read what Stickee wrote above. --ז62 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247

I assume your good faith, but I think you're not really helping here as much as you'd perhaps believe. (You should perhaps also consider registering.)-ז62 (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@62 - not trying to help at all, it was just like an exasperated comment. Is that o.k.? 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I certainly understand your position (and what could possibly lead it, given the whole history of attempts of the Russian government to distance itself from the event, at least verbally), yet not still completely appreciating overall effect of your contributions on the discussion here.-ז62 (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

What is your objection exactly? The word "Russia/Russian" is currently the fourth most frequently used word in the lead, right after the, that, and in (when "Russia" and "Russian" are counted together as one word). For comparison, "Ukraine/Ukrainian" is the eighth most frequent word (similarly counted), and the word "aircraft" comes in eleventh. So "Russia/Russian" is not exactly under-utilized, maybe still a bit on the heavy side. Heptor (talk) 21:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia was heavily involved. According to very RS. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as is duly mentioned. However, the Donetsk People's republic was at least as involved, and they are only mentioned once. This seems rather artificial. We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Heptor (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Ultimately it all depends on what the sources say, not what is - according to your subjective opinion - "balanced". "Donetsk People's Republic" is an entity mentioned (due to its rather uncertain/internationally not widely recognised status) only sparsely by reliable sources given in the intro, so it's completely OK to mention the name only when given by sources.

We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory".

This would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity. Please also read what I wrote on false balance, at least.-ז62 (talk) 22:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor: If you have any difficulties to find what my objection was, I'd recommend you to read what I wrote above. I surely do not object to use of words "Ukraine/Ukrainian" or "aircraft" (neither do I share your - so far unexplained - fears that the correct identification of sides/parties/forces would somehow lead to somewhat assign an "undue blame" on anyone - to the contrary, it could constitute a wp:FALSEBALANCE of kind. The problem here is not "excessive/not-excessive use of word Russia/Russian", the problem here is whether the forces/sides - as given by RS - are identified clearly in the text). Also you still haven't addressed the issue with the 2015 UNSCR proposal only you seem to believe to be prone to misidentification/misattributtion.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247: Yes, that's what everyone knows, and only Heptor seem to be thinking that mentioning/or not mentioning these reliably sourced facts would somehow change the situation as a whole.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little? Heptor (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties? When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"? Is the problem suddenly not the excessive/not-excessive use of "Russia/Russian"? Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties? Heptor (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little?

You're the only one here thinking alone lines "X/Y" mentioned "too much/too little". Please read what I actually objected to, your fight against straw makes you lose last of your credibility.

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties?

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced facts, that the sources given just identified forces/sides as such.

When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"?

You hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality".-ז62 (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced fact, that the sourcesgiven identified forces/sides as such.

Can you please point out to which of my recent edits you believe impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations? Heptor (talk) 22:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

[which of Heptor's recent edits] impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations

Have you meant your removals in the intro or your proposals/recent edits in the discussion? Because in the discussion you started here (removing "excessive" use of Russia) and , so far, finished there (suggesting to use "Donetsk People's Republic" as "correct"). You started with pretensions at copy-editing, yet your attempts are somewhat unbalanced, so as to say.--ז62 (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

:::::Do you object to any actual edits or edit suggestions that I have made? Heptor (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC) Retracted

I certainly did - please do carefully read my comments again, if you've failed to notice so far. It's quite unconvenient if you're somewhat unable to focus properly on what's discussed here. Also it's not entirely convincing when someone who attempts copyediting an article fails at basic reading comprehension. --ז62 (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You write a lot, not all of it relevant to the discussion. Great many accusations, discussion of irrelevant semantics, condescending offers of assistance. Just a point to the case, you wrote your comment above three minutes after I retracted the post it was responding to. Why? Heptor (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, chiefly because any earlier response was impossible, due to numerous edit conflicts, your "retraction" nothwistanding. (Not to mention that you actually still do not seem to be really understanding what my objections were aimed at.)--ז62 (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

You are hardly one who'd be able to judge it all neutrally, are you? I just repeatedly pointed that your attempts to "remove excessive use of words Russia/Russian", and other changes you made under (initial) pretensions at copyediting/improving neutrality, are not actually improving the readability of article and seem to be rather suspicious. I'm sorry you failed to address these points and instead moved onto further defence of the Russian government and its allies. (I'm not a copyeditor myself, but I'd certainly not dismiss any discussion on semantics as irrelevant).--ז62 (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So you object to my suggestion to replace the "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Anything else? Heptor (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Please do read rather carefully what I wrote here - my objections are more aimed against your persistent unreferenced attempts to push the terminology you personally prefer - for the sake of "neutrality" (as you subjectively see it) - instead of using correct descriptions as referenced by the sources given. I also quite of resent your attempts to dodge questions you've found inconvenient to deal with. --ז62 (talk) 23:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

When you write comments like you hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality", I really don't know how to respond to that so I don't. Heptor (talk) 23:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I write comments as I do, and I believe it's clearly not my problem if you've failed to fully comprehend them. Certainly I can not understand why you've gained some of your incorrect impressions. If I had not assumed your good faith, it would perhaps can be seem as what is sometimes called "begging the question", on your part. --ז62 (talk) 23:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties?

I certainly didn't - if identified as such by the sources given, then why not? My point, from the very beginning I got involved in this section, is that the sides/forces should be clearly and inambiguously identified - as given by the reliable neutral sources - not as you'd personally fancy it, and certainly not in accord with your rather openly stated agenda to "not mention Russia excessively".--ז62 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

ז62 I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively. Obviously there were attempts by the Russian government to manipulate the facts, and we should be careful to keep this out of the article. But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative. You wrote that "[Using the phrase 'DPR-controlled territory'] would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity". I can't agree with that. Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources. It's a somewhat weird that the article tries to avoid mentioning them.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content. But those two are related. Forcing the English language to serve a prearranged narrative usually involves bending and twisting it into shapes it doesn't want to be in. In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing. Using synonymous expressions for "pro-Russian separatist-controlled" would be a stylistic improvement. It would increase the variety of the language, and in addition "DPR-controlled" is both shorter and more precise.

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead. The content argument is that the Russian veto is given too much weight, and the stylistic argument is that the lead is already too long as it is. Heptor (talk) 10:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The sources I've seen don't refer to any "Donetsk Peoples Republic". They refer to "pro-Russian separatists" [6] and "Russian-backed rebels" [7]. The Donetsk Peoples Republic is a geopolitical euphemism promulgated by the Kremlin, and to call them that in Wikipedia's voice is POV. If the term must be used, it should be prefaced with "self-proclaimed". Geogene (talk) 16:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

OK.. May I ask you to please see the following sources that refer "Donetsk Peoples Republic":

• Kuzio, Taras (2015). "Competing Nationalisms, Euromaidan, and the Russian-Ukrainian Conflict". Studies in Ethnicity and Nationalism. 15 (1): 157–169. doi:10.1111/sena.12137. ISSN 1473-8481.
• Pettersson, Therése; Wallensteen, Peter (2015). "Armed conflicts, 1946–2014". Journal of Peace Research. 52 (4): 536–550. doi:10.1177/0022343315595927. ISSN 0022-3433.
• Laruelle, Marlene (2015). "The three colors of Novorossiya, or the Russian nationalist mythmaking of the Ukrainian crisis". Post-Soviet Affairs. 32 (1): 55–74. doi:10.1080/1060586X.2015.1023004. ISSN 1060-586X.
• Stebelsky, Ihor (2018). "A tale of two regions: geopolitics, identities, narratives, and conflict in Kharkiv and the Donbas". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–23. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1428904. ISSN 1538-7216.

These are all journals with at least some academic merit, I did not even bother checking the mass media sources. Heptor (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources that cover MH17 don't. Therefore, this article shouldn't. Geogene (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I found the sources above with a Google Scholar search for "Donetsk People Republic". Some sources use "self-proclaimed", others don't. Those who don't seem to be in a small majority. A Google Scholar search for "Donetsk, War" since 2018, revealed similar results. Here is another source:

• Clem, Ralph S. (2018). "Clearing the Fog of War: public versus official sources and geopolitical storylines in the Russia-Ukraine conflict". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–21. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1424006. ISSN 1538-7216.

Heptor (talk) 23:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This source uses "self-described autnomous republic"[8]. Which I think makes much more sense than "self-proclaimed", since about every single independent nation on this planet proclaimed their own independence. It wasn't the King who wrote the declaration of independence, right? Heptor (talk) 00:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Although a few people use the term, it is both politically loaded and uncommon. Stebelsky's paper you listed above calls Toal (2017), Near Abroad: Putin, the West, and the Contest Over Ukraine and the Caucasus "an excellent account and interpretation of these events". Toal is searchable in Google Books, "Donetsk Peoples Republic" occurs in it twice, once on page 257 and once on page 265. And "pro-Russian separatists" is both more useful to a reader who is unfamiliar with the Donbass War, and frankly it's a more accurate description of reality. Geogene (talk) 00:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It's uncommon in that book perhaps, but Google returns about an equal number of results: Pro-Russian separatists, 296 000 results; "Donetsk People's republic" 223 000 results; "Luhansk People's republic" 50 200 results. I included "Lugansk People's Republic" since the term "Pro-Russian separatists" includes that entity, and possibly also other pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine and elsewhere. So, again, no good reason for Wikipedia to consistently use "Pro-Russian separatists" over the other terms. Heptor (talk) 08:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively.

Then you should perhaps read what I wrote earlier and perhaps attempt to address it, instead of continuing your WP:IDHT.

But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative.

Are you now attempting to claim that someone does?

Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources

That was certainly not my point, and I'd really prefer to not straying from copy-editing to a discussion about your opinions on the "existence of DPR as an actual entity" - that's something that should not be dealt with copyediting of the lede, at least as the term copyediting is usually understood.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content.

You've finally noticed? Perhaps we're moving on... Please also read wp:ES - as you initially attempted to claim that you were just copy-editing.

In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing.

a) You're the only who claim that their use was (for some unstated reason) "excessive".

b) What exactly you mean by "meager writing"? I do not speak Russian, so I have only a rather vague idea what you've meant. Can you clarify it, please?

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead.

More precisely speaking - so far you're the only one who think it should not be in the lead, while giving rather unconvincing arguments for your position .-ז62 (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

ז62 I'm sorry but a lot of what you write has little relevance for the discussion.

• Yes, I claim that the word "Russia" was in some cases used gratuitously in the previous versions of the article, and that the article could be further improved by replacing one instance of "Pro-Russian Insurgents" with "DPR".
• I did not claim that I was just copy-editing, but yes, most of my edits were also attempts at improving the presentation of the article.
• There are two issues with how the UN resolution was presented. 1) It was one-sided, only presenting the information that could be used to blame Russia. In case you didn't notice I already fixed it [9] by also presenting the resolution that Russia proposed in response, but 2) the lede is still too long.
• The diff you mentioned [10]. Yes, the words "Russia" and "Russian" served to identify clearly what side/forces etc. were meant, and in most cases they still do. Other words may also be used to identify some of the forces involved. Are you saying there are places where there is a confusion about the identity of the forces? Where?
• I'm glad that you are showing an interest to learn Russian. But which one of the two words in "meager writing" did you have trouble with? They're both in the (English) dictionary, although "meager" is a non-universal spelling. Heptor (talk) 23:04, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

I'm sorry but a lot of what you write has little relevance for the discussion.

Perhaps you should ask for some further explanation/translation someone who has less trouble to understand English than you have? I have kind of similar opinion on what you wrote, but it's chiefly because your attempts to stray from copyediting to your personal opinions supporting the "real existence of DPR" etc. I'm also sorry, if it could help you.

Yes, I claim that the word "Russia" was in some cases used gratuitously in the previous versions of the article, and that the article could be further improved by replacing one instance of "Pro-Russian Insurgents" with "DPR".

I do not dispute that you claim so, but I'm still objecting to your failure to give any rationale for doing so, and your rather transparent attempts to dodge the objections I gave above.

I did not claim that I was just copy-editing

You did, repeatedly haven't given any other explanation (when giving any edit summary at all, which was not always the case), and at least you hadn't actually stated your now openly professed pro-Russian intentions, so please do not make yourself even more ridiculous.

There are two issues with how the UN resolution was presented

They're? - Surely you claim there were, but you still haven't supported your claims by any source. Please note the difference.

Are you saying there are places where there is a confusion about the identity of the forces?

Please - try to finally read what I actually wrote, instead of such another your attempt to stray away from the discussion.

I'm glad that you are showing an interest to learn Russian.

I was? Where? That's perhaps one of the things which really bother me with your limited understanding of English.

But which one of the two words in "meager writing" did you have trouble with? They're both in the (English) dictionary, although "meager" is a non-universal spelling.

I have no problem with your spelling. If I had, I'd certainly told you so. (And I'm quite familiar with words "meager" and "writing", although you've perhaps somehow failed to notice.) I asked you - and very clearly - what you've actually meant by the expression "meager writing", so please do not attempt to stray from answering my question again. I mean - I'd somewhat expect that someone who's ambitious to be an copyeditor would not have so much trouble to understand rather basic English? -ז62 (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

Why I've taken some trouble to ask you earlier was because "meager writing" - vague and rather incomprehensible as it's - was actually your first argument which bore - possibly - some actual relation to the problem of copyediting (instead of your rather openly admitted attempts "not to mention words Russia/Russian" excessively, because it would assign an undue blame"), so I was really interested in some further explanation on your part. If you chose to stay silent on the topic further, it's surely your choice.-ז62 (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Investigators state that missile was owned by a Russian brigade.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402?__twitter_impression=true A more experienced user should probably integrate this information into the page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nat7y (talk • contribs)

This has since been done, both in the lead and in the body (under JIT findings). Geogene (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

British ISC report

The last paragraph in this section should be cut down to the relevant information contained and moved elsewhere. It has nothing to do with any kind of investigation. Instead, it is a collection of statements yet unproven. Maybe some people find it interesting what MI6 wants the world to believe, but how is any of this relevant to the MH17 incident?

'On 20 December 2017, the British Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament published a 122-page report covering a substantial range or subjects, notably a section entitled "Russian objectives and activity against UK and allied interests". This section made clear the stance of Britain on the subject of Russia and its involvement in the MH17 event, stating that there is categoric evidence to support the claim that Russian military forces supplied and recovered the Buk missile launcher. This was the first report to outrightly accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack, although it does not state whether or not MH17 was the intended target. The report quotes MI6 as stating: "Russia conducts information warfare on a massive scale... An early example of this was a hugely intensive, multichannel propaganda effort to persuade the world that Russia bore no responsibility for the shooting down of [Malaysian Airlines flight] MH-17 (an outright falsehood: we know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher)".'

I have not read this report but it seems unbelievable to me that it would "accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack". This sentence, apparently not a verbatim quote, insinuates without supporting evidence that there WAS an ATTACK (instead of an accident, for instance) and that the crash was planned beforehand (orchestrated) instead of having occurred during some other and more likely kind of hostilities, say the attempt at shooting down fighter planes. Such assumptions might have a place in an encyclopedia article about MI6 conspiracy theories, but not in an article dealing with the facts about the crash, least of all under the heading "investigation". In addition, if there actually were "categoric evidence" to support their claims, it should be provided, and this alone would have a place here, not the unsupported claims of an intelligence service not directly involved in the investigation.

Even less fitting is the part with the yammering about Russia's alleged "information warfare" (the fact that their media didn't chime in with Western propaganda). Did they need to investigate this? Why, and who cares?

I am going to remove this paragraph now and if somebody reinstates it, as they undoubtedly will, please explain why and what it has to do with any kind of "Investigation", thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.97.170.7 (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree it doesnt appear to be relevant to the investigation or accident. MilborneOne (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

If you objection is that it is not part of the investigation that is fine, I have changed the heading so that it stands alone as a relevant report. - Ahunt (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I looked into the sources now and, somehow, I am not surprised. But I am. The only section in this ISC report dealing with Russia and the MH17 incident is on page 52, under #142 and it's just 98 words long. That's it. That's the entire basis for the paragraph cited above. The other source, a well-known propaganda outfit, merely points out this short text on page 52 of the ISC report and adds nothing to it, not anything substantial worth mentioning other than more opinion. So, let's quickly recount what the source does NOT say (as I already thought):

1. that "there is categoric evidence to support the claim that Russian military forces supplied and recovered the Buk missile launcher". No, this is the only statement about their evidence: "Written evidence – SIS, 30 August 2016." That is all. How does this "categorically" prove Russian involvement?

2. "This was the first report to outrightly accuse Russia of orchestrating the attack." False, the report nowhere alleges that Russia has "orchestrated" a damn thing with respect to MH17, let alone an "attack". I am going to delete this part and if you disagree, show me in detail where the report says any such thing.

3. What the report really states is that MI6 believe they "know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher". Okay, but this is what half the world believes and all Western media tried us to convince of daily for months. That's not news, that's not information. It would be, if they actually had cited evidence, but, guess what, they didn't. The Dutch should be miffed that they are expected to run around collecting witness statements when the Brits already know everything "beyond any reasonable doubt"!

Here is the passage in the report this entire "British ISC report" section is in reference to:

142. SIS informed us that “all three Russian intelligence services are tasked with carrying out ‘information operations’ [which] goes beyond promulgating the Russian perspective and includes the creating and propagation of forgeries and falsehoods”. One obvious area is Ukraine, where: Russia conducts information warfare on a massive scale... An early example of this was a hugely intensive, multi-channel propaganda effort to persuade the world that Russia bore no responsibility for the shooting down of [Malaysian Airlines flight] MH-17 (an outright falsehood: we know beyond any reasonable doubt that the Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher).164

164 Written evidence – SIS, 30 August 2016.

Person of interest in the ongoing investigation, Ivannikov GRU agent (article)

Just putting article of interest here

russian gru commander orion identified 78.147.39.247 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Moving responsibility to the lede

An IP editor and Galassi recently copied the statement that "The governments of the Netherlands and Australia hold Russia responsible for 'its part in the downing of flight'.[6]" into the first paragraph in the lead. That seems a bit excessive. The lede is alredy very much filled with discussion about responsibility, and it is quite obvious that those governments hold the Russia partly responsible for what happened. This particular statement they are trying to insert is mentioned in Section "Findings of the Joint Investigation Team", with somewhat different wording. Heptor (talk) 13:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

But the governments are not JIT. This is most important information to date. May by it will be better to reduce other parts of lead.--Nicoljaus (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It's significant information. Geogene (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize it was news. How about [11]? There, I placed this new sentence into the second paragraph, where the movement of the Buk system is discussed. I also removed the sentence "The JIT say they have established the identities of approximately 100 people, witnesses or suspects [...]". I think this is too much of a technical detail, almost taking attention away from the main results instead of supporting them. So I suggest replacing it with the newly added sentence. Heptor (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I do not see the point in the proposed revision. The reaction of governments should stand apart from the current results of the investigation, and the number of people associated with the case is also significant.--Nicoljaus (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

The reactions of governments are almost always politically driven, rather than based on fact. The Australian Prime Minister at the time declared Russia had done it within hours of it happening, based on no evidence at all. Such "facts" count for very little. HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

The reaction of governments is an important fact, we state it. But the desire to remove it somewhere far away because this "just politics" does not look very good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoljaus (talk • contribs) 07:52, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks fine to me, and I gave my reasons. Do you have any? HiLo48 (talk) 07:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not think so and I've explained my reasons either. The decision of governments is based on the results of an official investigation not "politically driven".--Nicoljaus (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Nicoljaus: I thought the reason why they hold Russia responsible was that Russia supplied the Buk system to the rebels? The second paragraph deals with how this system was transported to the rebel-controlled territory etc, so I thought it would be natural to have this sentence in the second paragraph.

@HiLo48: There has definitely been a lot of politics in the aftermath of this tragedy, but I don't think you will be able to support your position with reliable sources. This statement by the governments of Netherlands and Australia is notable, so it has to be included. Another thing, is the statement by the Australian Prime Minister that you mention in the article already? Maybe it should be. Heptor (talk) 08:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

What is really the point in reporting politicians saying totally predictable, political things? HiLo48 (talk) 11:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Because that's one of the main things that Wikipedia does now. But yes, I also wish it was less sensationalist. Heptor (talk) 11:46, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: All I've got to say is that I'm somewhat losing last of my good faith towards a self-appointed "copy-editor" who so demonstrably fails to comprehend rather basic and plain English. No offense meant, I still assume Heptor means basically well - but still fails completely.--ז62 (talk) 23:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Re Comment: I think the above is mostly an off-topic personal attack, and I will not dignify it with a response. Thanks, Heptor (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor: Please refrain from such clearly unsubstantiated claims of personal attacks. Also - please do read this. Thank you.--ז62 (talk) 00:20, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

The formal statement of holding another state responsible is a legal step where a state is officially accused of breach of international agreements. The formal, legal approach makes this a rather extreme statement. This opens up the possibility of all kind of formal cases brought against the state of Russia to all kinds of institutional courts. This is substantially more important than any non-formal statement about responsibility before. Arnoutf (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, completely--Nicoljaus (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I think I'll say that this argument is probably a bit too speculative. When and if this statement eventually leads to a conviction of the Russian state for a war crime this will definitely be worthy of a mention in the lede of an encyclopedia article. For now it's just a statement. But I realize that I'm in the minority. What about my proposal to move this sentence to the second paragraph? Heptor (talk) 21:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

There is an infinitesimally small chance of this "blame" leading to any serious action against Russia, and the politicians involved know that. So do we. It is pure politics, and by highlighting it, we are helping the politicians play their game. I would much rather we stuck to known facts than what politicians say to score points, mostly with their own electorates. HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

These objections have no basis in policy. Geogene (talk) 04:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Nor does sticking that political tripe in the lead. HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that that would fall under WP:WEIGHT, WP:LEAD. Geogene (talk) 06:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT is about representing views in a truly balanced way. I don't think that covers my concerns at all. HiLo48 (talk) 06:26, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's keep it to facts. I would not want to push this formal declaration of responsibility into the lead, however politically and legally these statements by the Dutch and Australian governments are in my view not less important than the informal bickering and accusations between Russia and Ukraine. The latter now occupies two full paragraphs of the lead, while the suggestion is that this formal accusation would only receive one sentence.

To some extent I think this is indicative of the state of the article as a whole, where more attention is paid to unfounded media aggression than to the actual downing of the flight. I am not sure we can solve this here - but with the new JIT report the article may need to go through a long overdue overhaul. Arnoutf (talk) 06:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

And I think that Ukraine's position could be de-emphasized. But pretty much every reliable source finds that Russia bears responsibility for the shootdown and the information warfare that followed. That's fundamental to the situation, and should be fairly prominent in the lead. Geogene (talk) 06:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Politicians are NOT reliable sources. And are you saying all Russian sources are unreliable? HiLo48 (talk) 06:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Whether politicians are reliable or not depends on the secondary sourcing. The overwhelming majority of what has been written about this incident in reliable sources is about "politicians" in some form or another, so your suggestions are against policy. And yes, the majority of Russian sources are unreliable. Geogene (talk) 06:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Wow, it's becoming hard to not see your position as one of non-neutral POV. HiLo48 (talk) 07:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't care; because I see no evidence that you understand the relevant policies. Geogene (talk) 07:15, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Please show me the policy the says the vote seeking declarations of western politicians are more useful contributions to this article than all Russian sources. HiLo48 (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

You refuse even to comprehend my argument. You just go on talking regardless. Geogene (talk) 07:20, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA. I am not the topic. HiLo48 (talk) 07:22, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

No, I believe that you are the one who should read WP:NPA. After all, you accused me of having a POV (that you don't like). Anyway, you have derailed this discussion with your non-productive banter. Geogene (talk) 07:24, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

You do have a POV I don't like. I can live with that. But don't apply it to the article. HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Girkin's taking of responsibility

I've just re-read the VKontakte post by Igor Girking [12]. It is summarized in the article as "Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatist militia, [wrote a post in VKontakte where he was] claiming responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 military transporter near Torez.". I've read this post a few times before, but it suddenly dawned on me that he is not actually claiming responsibility for anything in that post. The wording he chose is does not specify who exactly shot down the plane, and sounds more like a general news announcement. Translated literally: "In the region of Torez, just now we/they shot down an An-26"; the pronoun is implied from the verb, so it can be interpreted as "they shot down an airplane" just as readily as "we shot down an airplane". I don't know what to do about it, could someone please verify my translation? Thanks, Heptor (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Congrats, you've just conducted some original research! Unforunately, Wikipedia explicitly prohibits original research with the core content policy "Wikipedia:No original research. We say whatever reliable secondary sources say. Secondary sources say they took responsibility. Stickee (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

What a pity that you forgot to translate the next sentence from Strelkov: We warned before - not to fly in "our sky"--Nicoljaus (talk) 08:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The next sentence has the same structure, it says "we/they warned [...]" Heptor (talk) 19:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Even if the second sentence said explicitly "we warned", it would not necessarily invalidate the possibility of a third party in the first sentence. If we are to use non-English language sources (which are never prohibited) we need accurate translations. If we can't rely on GoogleTranslate, I'm not sure how we ensure a guaranteed neutral translation. Is there no "officially agreed" translation of Strelkov, e.g. from Reuters? Or is Stickee saying that all translation is WP:OR? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Translations by us are WP:OR. We go by what reliable sources say. The CS Monitor says "Igor Girkin, a Ukrainian separatist leader also known as Strelkov, claimed responsibility on a popular Russian social-networking site for the downing of what he thought was a Ukrainian military transport plane" and used the translation "In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace.". WaPost [13] gives the same translation, as does the New Yorker [14], Newsweek [15], the ABC [16], Slate [17] and more. Stickee (talk) 11:23, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

That looks pretty clear to me, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 30 May 2018 (UTC) p.s. but more generally, how do we use nnb-English language sources at all if we don't have an independent translation also published by a WP:RS? There are hundreds of thousands of uses all over Wikipedia.

Respectfully, Stickee, please have another look the OR policy. It literally states that faithfully translating sourced material into English [...] is not considered original research. Heptor (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Аs a native speaker of the Russian language, I confirm the correctness of such a translation.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

At any rate, currently the only source provided in the lede is the link to the original post in Russian, so that's what I looked at at when I started this discussion. Links to WaPo should be added I guess. This is very weird. I'm re-reading the text again and again, can't understand how it could be interpreted as saying something about who shot the plane. "В районе Тореза только что сбили самолет Ан-26[...]" [18]Heptor (talk) 21:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Аs a native speaker of the Russian language, I argue that the translation is incorrect and it puts additional meanings in the message. 37.151.19.210 (talk) 08:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Is it possible these news organizations had some kind of context or knowledge that we don't have, something that would cause them to read it as "we"? It isn't original research for editors to provide a translation of a foreign source, but when the translation by wikipedia editors conflicts with the translation by secondary sources, I think policy requires us to follow the secondary sources. Still, this is troubling if you're correct. I wonder how such a mistake could happen... the only way I can imagine is if one newspaper translated incorrectly and all the others copied from them, but it seems crazy to think all these different newspapers would just take the translation from the Christian Science Monitor (who appear to have been the first to report on this) without even bothering to check the original. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 13:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Are there any Russian language sources that provide an unambiguous statement? I have no knowledge of Russian and so I don't know if this kind of grammatical ambiguity ca be avoided. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Considering that Girkin's people weren't out sightseeing, but in fact were at the crash site looking for surviving enemy airmen to capture, it's obvious that it was "we" that downed the aircraft, not "they". This is just wiki-lawyering on behalf of the rebels, against sourcing. Geogene (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

You may well be right. Perhaps the original Russian sources deliberately reported it in this way? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I looked around for Russian-language sources as Martinevans123 suggested. There is for example an article in life.ru, which states that the rebels reported that an An-26 was shot down.[19] It never mentions anything about who shot it down. The Russian-language version of this article states Girkin's post verbatim, it also never mentions anything about rebels claiming to have down an An-26. I also found a blog by a certain Lev Hodoi, who argues that the VKontakte post has been mistranslated. Quote from the blog: "Not a word about who shot it down. Not a word. Nothing!" ("Ни слова о том, кто его сбил. Ни слова. Вообще!). [20] I couldn't find any Russian-language sources that interpret this post otherwise, despite an extensive search so far.

Red Rock Canyon, this mistranslation is not very obvious despite its significance: I had to read it several times before I noticed that something was amiss. It's troubling indeed. Geogene, you seem to be willing to ignore a possible error in the article just because it fits your political views. Please make an effort to check your bias. Heptor (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Usually Russian sources just quote Girkin, his words do not require additional explanations. But some write directly:

17 июля 2014 года Стрелков на своей странице в Twitter похвастался тем, что в районе Тореза Донецкой области его бойцы сбили Ан-26. "Предупреждали же - не летать в "нашем небе", - написал Стрелков. "Птичка упала за террикон, жилой сектор не зацепила. Мирные люди не пострадали", - отметил он. Сообщение в соцсети появилось около 16:50 по киевскому времени, а приблизительно в 16:20 с экранов радаров исчез Boeing 777.

Translate:

July 17, 2014 Strelkov on his page on Twitter boasted that near Torez of the Donetsk region, his men shot down An-26. "We warned before - not to fly in "our sky," wrote Strelkov. "The bird fell over the waste tank, the residential sector did not catch. Peaceful people were not harmed" he said. The message in the social network appeared around 16:50 by Kyiv time, and approximately at 16:20 the Boeing 777 disappeared from the radar screens.

In fact, everything is pretty clear with this case.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:30, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Nicoljaus. I'm surprised that this Daily Telegraph source is not mentioned in the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Well - “We warned them - don’t fly in our sky.” - the translation is just the same. But I do not know how serious this case is - only 18 victims out of 298.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Serious" or not, I think such a case is quite unusual. But that was three years ago. I'm not sure what has happened since, if anything. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

It's very strange. If Girkin wanted to take credit for shooting down a Ukrainian jet on behalf of the rebels, he could have been more explicit about it, something like "Our forces shot down an An-26". No reason for him to be subtle about it. But instead he left out the only pronoun until the very end of the post, and even then didn't mention the DPR explicitly. I don't think this vagueness accidental. If anything, it could be indicative of the Buk being operated by the Russians, and not by the rebels under Girkin's command. So I don't quite understand why I get labeled as a Russian spy over this, I am genuinely concerned that a poor translation may have caught on. Heptor (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why does anyone even think that this message was written by Strelkov personally? I checked, and this account exists until now, but now it is called "Summaries from the militia of Novorossia." And it description: "Daily reports on the combat situation from military correspondents, militia and eyewitnesses of events promptly and in one place." Then, at that time, the account was called "Summaries from Igor Ivanovich Strelkov" with the subtitle "Information from Igor Ivanovich, his comrades and militia." The messages on this wall have subtitles indicating the sources: "The message from Igor Ivanovich Strelkov," or "The message from the militiaman Prokhorov," or "The message from the militia headquarters," or simply "The message from the militia" - that is, from an unnamed supporter of the rebels. This infamous message just has the subtitle "Message from the militia." That is, it's just an eyewitness's report from the crash site, sent in the first minutes after the tragedy. A message with an emotional commentary based on the assumption that it can only be a Ukrainian transport aircraft and the second assumption that the regime troops do not shoot down their planes. The first assumption is obviously erroneous, the truth of the second one is a subject for discussion. 2.132.80.11 (talk) 20:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Removing "German intelligence" from the lead

Now we have in the lead such a statement: "Also in 2014, German intelligence sources reported that they believed insurgents had stolen the missile from the Ukrainian military." I have studied this case and believe that such an assertion should not be in the lead. Indeed there was a secret report of the BND to the parliamentary commission, and then someone unknown told "Spiegel", and then an unknown author of "Spiegel", as he could, retold it in the article. Double broken phone. Officially, BND didn't opened this information and there are no other sources that could confirm the correctness of the article in the "Spiegel". Summarizing - this case was of great interest in 2014, but now we should remove it from the lead. It's just another unconfirmed news report.--Nicoljaus (talk) 14:55, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia did it, says the Infobox

Well, the article doesn't explicitly say that. It says the JIT concluded that. But the Infobox now explicitly says the Russians did it. I don't believe that's appropriate.

I know the anti-Russia gang here will again gang up and win this (it has already begun with one of the regular suspects), as they have ever since this incident happened, but I have now said my piece. HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I've tried better wording, which explains it better in regards to reliable sources. Can't be too wordy though, since it's the infobox. Stickee (talk) 11:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Infoboxes are disaster areas at the best of times. My preference is to omit any attempt at detail. That's what the article text is for. HiLo48 (talk) 11:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

JIT concluded that the missile was owned by a Russian army unit; so yes it was shot down by a Russian owned missile (which was the text you reverted). Whether Russian military actually pushed the button is not yet proven and was not stated. Your version (transported from Russia is way to weak) - it would be like stating that the 1945 atomic bomb on Hiroshima was caused by a nuclear bomb transported from the Mariana Islands). (talk)You can whine about us being anti-Russia but all your recent comments suggest that you are extremely non-neutrally pro-Russia. Arnoutf (talk) 13:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

All the time I was growing up we were told we should hate Russia because they were evil communists. They're not now, but apparently we still must hate them. My country has forts all around the coastline that were built in the 1800s, "to keep the Russians out". They never came, so I guess the forts worked. I sit back and think a lot about fear politics, and its impact. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The above includes a lot of speculations that venture beyond JIT's conclusions. We don't know who operated the SAM at the time of the shooting. If it was the local rebel forces, then one could justifiably describe it as a rebel-owned missile, supplied by Russia. The rebels probably also have less training, so they would be more likely to make the mistake that they made. At any rate, including this in the one-sentence summary in the infobox is a blatant over-simplification. I can see that many editors here want to point fingers to Russia. This is not justified, the airplane should not have been there. Heptor (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The USA (and other nations) sell weaponry all over the world. We don't usually blame the manufacturer when a weapon is pointed in the wrong direction by the purchaser. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The current wording, Airliner shootdown by Buk missile from Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade. is consistent with sourcing, and therefore policy. Geogene (talk) 04:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, it's not, because it is inevitably abbreviated to fit the Infobox, leaving out some details. If we could fit all necessary detail an an Infobox, we wouldn't need the text part of articles. HiLo48 (talk) 04:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

We could add that it was shot over an area of armed conflict at least. That's an essential piece of context. Heptor (talk) 07:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

If Russia had given or sold it to the rebels they should have provided evidence to JIT of that transaction. Since Russia did not provide that evidence, JIT can safely assume it was still missile from a Russian army unit (as the infobox now claims). Arnoutf (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

When Russia decided to share some hand-me-down Buks with their mercenary allies, they should have informed aviation authorities beforehand, so that NOTAMs could be issued over Eastern Ukraine all the way up to 30,000 ft. There is no justification to sugarcoat Russia's responsibility in the article, because sources are focusing on Russia's responsibility. The why were there still civilian targets in Russia's illegal new missile range is a fringe argument. Geogene (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

It's a moot point Geogene. Two planes were shot down over Eastern Ukraine while flying well above the range of man-portable SAMs before the MH17 disaster. So the Ukrainian authorities knew very well that such weapons were deployed. Heptor (talk) 21:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia rejects any charges brought by the commission involving Ukraine, and which are not based on any real evidence. The so-called messages from Ukrainian social networks are another rubbish made by the SBU. Photos do not have a binding to the place and time. Finally, the number of the Buk rocket belongs to the series, which was produced in 1986. In Russia, all missiles 1986 release were to be liquidated no later than 2011. 2.132.80.11 (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox summary

The current summary is: "Airliner shootdown by Buk missile from Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade."

This seems a bit confusing because it implies the Russian brigade fired the missile, while most of the article seems to indicate the missile was supplied by Russia but fired by pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists. Is there a better wording for this? 2601:644:1:B7CB:4C40:316C:B9AD:938A (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I've chenged to: "Airliner shootdown by a missile fired from the Buk system provided by Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade"--Nicoljaus (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that is an improvement. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks!--Nicoljaus (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

'Investigators had asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but had been ignored, said Westerbeke. If specific Russian military personnel or commanders are indicted, Russia is almost certain to refuse their extradition.' 78.147.67.138 (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ukraine's responsibility

The final report of the Dutch Safety Boards is quite direct in stating that Ukrainian authorities bear much of the responsibility for the loss of MH17, mainly because they knew that high-altitude anti-aircraft weapons were deployed, and should have closed their airspace earlier. Link to the report: https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf?s=678D995FE7E3080B6256880A456CED959FE4ECBC

Here is a few quotes from the report:

• p. 209: "When implementing the above measures, the Ukrainian authorities took insufficient notice of the possibility of a civil aeroplane at cruising altitude being fired upon. This was also the case, when, according to the Ukrainian authorities, the shooting- down of an Antonov An-26 on 14 July 2014 and that of a Sukhoi Su-25 on 16 July 2014 occurred while these aeroplanes were flying at altitudes beyond the effective range of MANPADS"
• p. 207: "the Dutch Safety Board considers this risk assessment to be incomplete because it does take threats to military aircraft into account, but does not account for the consequences to civil aviation of potential errors or slips."
• p 199: "In order to give an indication of the financial consequences of the closure of the Dnipropetrovsk FIR after 17 July 2014, the Dutch Safety Board estimated the revenues per day using EUROCONTROL’s statement of the number of international flights that had flown through the Dnipropetrovsk FIR between May and July 2014. To do so, the Dutch Safety Board counted the number of flights per aircraft type on two random days, 1 April and 15 June 2014, and then calculated the route charges. The estimated charges amounted to approximately € 176,000 on 1 April 2014 and approximately € 248,000 on 15 June 2014."

I tried to expand the article to reflect this,[21] but I got promptly reverted,[22][23] and, for good measure, I also got templated on my talk page.[24] I don't see any good-faith arguments not to include this in the article, but Ahunt, Volunteer Marek please feel free to state your case. Heptor (talk) 20:54, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why do you have a conflict of interest here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't have a conflict of interest. I don't receive, and I have never received any form of compensation for editing Wikipedia. I tried to tell it to Ahunt, but he simply deleted my message from his talk page[25]. So there is that too. 21:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

A conflict of interest can involve more than just paid editing, it can also involve a history of biased editing in support of a cause, that shows that the editor has a connection to the subject. You don't have to be paid to edit Wikipedia, to be in a conflict of interest. In this case your editing history speaks for itself. - Ahunt (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ahunt, please consider that disagreeing with your views is not, ipso facto, a conflict of interest. Heptor (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

If you check my editing history on this article you will see that I have no POV that I am pushing here, whereas your history shows that you clearly do. Trying to obscure your COI here by couching it as a content dispute is disingenuous and doesn't hold water. You have now been called out by several editors for POV-pushing and COI. - Ahunt (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Ahunt, having a disagreement with another editor is not a conflict of interest. It sounds like you think you WP:OWN the article but this is contrary to Wikipedia's rules, no one person gets to decide that their views are the truth and someone else's are POV. Instead of resorting to accusations and personal attacks, please assume good faith and try to focus on how we can improve the content of the article per Wikipedia's policies. That's why we have the talk page! :) 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic (but MI6 monitored) section
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Come on now, admit it. Have you ever been to Salisbury? Know anything about door-knobs? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Enlighten me about Salisbury :) Heptor (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Ah, shucks. Obviously you haven't. Just forget I ever mentioned knobs. Sorry to disturb you. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Aaaah, clever[26]. But Martinevans123, why would you assume that a Russian spy would do something about the anti-Russian bias on WP? Putin has other means to inform his own peons, and he is probably quite happy if his people perceive that the West is against them. Heptor (talk) 22:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Ah, so you admit you know Vladimir! We're just all relieved you didn't cover yourself in pigs' blood and pretend to get yourself murdered. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC) You should be more concerned that I might take the easy way out of this discussion. It's surprisingly popular [27], [28]everyone is doing it. Heptor (talk) 22:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Thanks for those very interesting links, especially that last from European Psychiatry. Perhaps a new article, is called for. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC) We do have Suicide in Ukraine. But it needs to be updated, it currently states that Ukraine is ranked 13th in the World. Heptor (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

On topic: Your quotes do indeed show that Ukraine shared some of the responsibility by not closing their airspace, and while mentioned (just look for the word airspace in the article) I would agree to slightly stronger wording on that topic. However, these quotes do not support your interpretation "much of the responsibility", so don't overdo. Arnoutf (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the revision history, it was actually Arnoutf and I who wrote the text in that section in the first place [29] [30]. I made sure that the text accurately reflected the DSB report and the responsibility it lay on Malaysia Airlines and Ukraine for the airspace selection. I think it's fairly accurate and in-depth enough as-is. Furthermore, it's a bit out of context. For example, the report elaborates, "such states rarely close their airspace or provide aeronautical information with specific information or warnings about the conflict.", acknowledging that you can't rely on a country closing it's airspace. For that reason, they later recommended that the ICAO "amend relevant Standards so that risk assessments [conducted by airlines] shall also cover threats to civil aviation in the airspace at cruising level" (pg 265). I already inserted a summary of that recommendation in the section back in 2015. Stickee (talk) 07:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The present version of the article severely understates how far the DSB went in criticizing the Ukrainian management of their airspace. The DSB report includes statements like "In the international system of responsibilities, the sovereign state bears sole responsibility for the safety of the airspace" (p. 262). DSB goes far in suggesting that the Ukrainian authorities neglected safety for the sake of maintaining the cash flow, ref their thorough analysis of the cash flow in Section 6.4.2. As to Stickee's comment about the context – the report states that in the other conflicts that were examined there were no clear indications of medium or long-range surface-to-air missiles being present. It is almost rhetorical to state that the Ukrainian authorities knew that Russia possesses medium and long-range surface-to-air missiles, and that they knew that these weapons were deployed against their air force. The risk of operating civilian traffic in areas where such weapons are operational is nothing if not obvious. It was a very chilling act of negligence, which is clearly reflected in the report. I don't understand how you can look at this through your fingers.

I believe that the report could be represented in the article more faithfully. I'll start by including some of the conclusions, if you have specific criticisms to the material I add please state it here. Thanks, Heptor (talk) 18:02, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Several false conspiracy theories...

Hi, I have removed the following sentence from the lead:

Several false conspiracy theories about the crash have since appeared in Russian media, including that the aircraft was being followed by a Ukrainian military jet.

Calling these "false conspiracy theories" is just editorializing, it's enough to state that these are "alternate theories" and clearly attribute them to a source to make it clear these claims are not endorsed by Wikipedia. However, I fail to see why this needs to be in the lead in the first place. The surrounding sentences make it clear that Russia denied responsibility, so I'm not sure why Russian media treatment of the incident was significant. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Calling conspiracy theories with no connection to reality "alternate theories" goes against WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Neither source states these theories are "conspiracy theories" or false. In fact, at the time these claims were put forward the now-accepted version of events was not established. The Washington Post source mentions a claim by Russian military about the aircraft being in the vicinity of a Ukrainian military jet. The New York only only uses "conspiracy theory" in scare quotes in a headline. The actual article states as follows:

Russia laid out two detailed theories on what took down MH17. Unsurprisingly, they both contradict Western accusations that separatists accidentally took down a civilian jet with a Russia-supplied weapon. Instead, Russian air force chief Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev suggested that the plane was shot out of the sky by the Ukrainians, using either missile systems or a fighter plane.

So this clearly violates WP:SYN in my opinion. Furthermore, it's not necessary to editorialize like this, it's sufficient to let the facts speak for themselves: Russian military said X, the JIT said Y, citing evidence Z.

I think maybe the difficulty arises from the fact that there are two pieces to this sentence. First, there is an implied claim that "Russian media published 'false conspiracy theories' which other sources disagree with." Second, there is the claim itself. I have edited to keep the latter part, which is well-supported by the sources, while removing the first part as pointless editorializing. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:53, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I see my changes keep getting reverted by the POV owners of the article, sad. Anyway, for posterity, here's my proposed version (combining this claim with the previous sentence):

The Russian defense ministry stated that it had never deployed anti-aircraft missile systems in Ukraine, and suggested the aircraft may have been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet or missile system.

Maybe we can reach a consensus here in talk, then fix the article.2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you need to remove the internal link. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It's in the TOC. Is the purpose of the sentence just to shoehorn in an editorial comment about Russian media bias? 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, all section headings are in the TOC. The link just helps the reader. I disagree, it's not there "just to shoehorn in an editorial comment". The wording could be adjusted. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Then what is it there for? 2601:644:1:B7CB:19B8:4095:CF3:361A (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Please don't call other editors "you morons" as you did here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, that was uncivil. I find it slightly amusing that the owners of the article are so eager to push their POV they don't even pay attention to the content of the minor edits and just revert everything to the established version. But I digress. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've made a grand total of three edits to this article, my reversion of your edit being the third. Yeah, clearly I'm just guilty of WP:OWN and you're not just failing to assume good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Please don't accuse other editors as "owners of the article". The article has been achieved through collaborative consensus-building. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC):

Re "The article has been achieved through collaborative consensus-building", well this was unfortunately a statement of grandeur with limited basis in reality. Not much consensus was involved in the building of the article, not lately at least. Although I can't support 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E's view either. It's quite obvious that many of the theories that were put forward in the Russian media were a bunch of patent nonsense, and they should be clearly labeled as such on Wikipedia. Heptor (talk) 18:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

That's very dismissive and is also quite uncharitable to the very many editors who have helped to write this article over the past four years. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I do apologize if it came off like that. Wasn't much consensus here lately though. Heptor (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The word "conspiracy" isn't necessary though. The false theories that were put forward were not all "conspiracy theories". Could "bogus" be the right adjective to properly deride them in the lead? Heptor (talk) 18:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree "bogus" might be better. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Why not just report the claims as claims like reliable sources are doing? Why do we need to qualify? Seems like providing clear attribution is enough to distance us from the source. By analogy, in an article about a convicted murderer there might be a sentence like "X denied the charges and suggested that Y had shot himself accidentally." Given that X was convicted, this claim is presumably false, but it's not necessary to say "X falsely denied the charges and suggested a conspiracy theory that Y had shot himself accidentally." 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I apologize if I am late to the party, but which RS's are we talking about? Are those theories commonly referred to as "false/bogus [conspiracy]" theories, areor are they usually stated verbatim? Heptor (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

See my preceding comments and the reflist below. The two cited sources both simply state that Russian officials have put forth these claims, and then discuss why the claims are unlikely to be true. One article uses the term "conspiracy theory" in scare quotes in a headline, the other does not use the term at all. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources call these conspiracy theories [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40]. So should the article. Geogene (talk) 18:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, that does seem very clear. Clearer than I had imagined. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

These two media articles also bear on this overall discussion: Popular Science and The Economist. - Ahunt (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It seems so. But 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E is correct in that this description is not supported by the sources that are presently in the article. Heptor (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Great, I've updated the article with some of those refs. The New York Magazine ref was already there. Stickee (talk) 22:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Heptor (talk) 23:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

...then why did you re-revert and delete the phrase? Several other high profile Wikipedia articles use that term, including Sean Hannity, George Soros, Prisons of the Reign of Terror, Lou Dobbs, Lucian Wintrich, The Washington Times, National Review, Jack Kingston, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories and more. Stickee (talk) 23:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I tried to discuss this a few posts above. Many of these theories are not conspiracy theories in the sense that they don't involve any conspiracy. They may be accurately described as false, bogus or spurious however. Heptor (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Common parlance has evolved, and they rarely do involve actual conspiracies. Bottom line is, we describe things how the reliable sources are describing them. We're required by the core content policies to do so. Stickee (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The source you added only calls them "conspiracy theories" in the headline. Otherwise these theories are called "red herrings, conspiracy theories and alternative scenarios". The word "spurious" I think provides a good summary. Heptor (talk) 23:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Then what about "spurious conspiracy theories"? It keeps the c-word used by all the sources. Stickee (talk) 00:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Excuse me, but some participants in the discussion call conspiracy theories anything that does not correspond to the official version of the investigation, do not they? And Ukraine is a member of this commission of inquiry. So why does someone think that the Ukrainian side will give evidence against itself?

"Evidence" of the official version in the case of the crash of MH17 are divided into three types. The first are the statements of US officials that they allegedly have some satellite images proving the guilt of the pro-Russian rebels. The commission of inquiry, however, does not have these pictures. The second are data from Ukrainian social networks and radio intercepts of rebel talks provided by the SBU. Unfortunately, the SBU is notorious for its tendency to create rough fakes. The images they provide are not tied to the place and time and Ukrainian social networks are full of photographs of Russian soldiers that were made in Russia sometimes a few years before the events in the Donbass and declared as evidence of "Russian invasion." The third are the so-called "Bellingscat" analysis. They have two fundamental drawbacks: they are basically amateurish and their authors drive their reasoning to pre-prepared conclusions. As for the investigation of the wreckage of the airliner and the bodies of the deceased, they, in fact, were not conducted. Suffice it to say that the Dutch representatives did not even consider it necessary to collect all the debris.145.255.171.209 (talk) 17:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

References