Talk:Corsican language

Classification needs improvement

This article desperately needs a clear statement on the classification of Corsican, backed up by academic sources. The explanation given by Seidl on the discussion page of the German article agrees with my understanding, although I am not a Romanist and cannot provide appropriate sources.

According to the view which seems to me the best-supported one, the language spoken on Corsica in the early medieval period (called "Old Corsican") was essentially identical to Old Sardinian, the language spoken on Sardinia at the same time (which is remarkably well attested for such an early Romance language). One has to keep in mind that the Southern Sardinian dialects (also called Campidanese Sardinian) are more strongly influenced by Catalan and Italian than the more conservative Central Sardinian dialects (also called Logudorese Sardinian), especially the Central-Eastern group (also called Nuorese Sardinian), which is considered the most conservative dialect group of Sardinian. Especially the dialects of Bitti and the Barbagia are very distinctive. Old Sardinian and Old Corsican resemble those more than Campidanese or the new Sardinian standard language.

However, in the high medieval period, Corsica came under the influence of Pisa, and the local dialects became increasingly Tuscanised through the influence of the dialect of Pisa. The Tuscan influence is particularly strong in the northeast of Corsica, while in southern Corsica, the preserved "Sardinian" traits are considerably more frequent.

Unlike in southern Sardinia, the Tuscan influence was indeed so strong that unlike Campidanese Sardinian, which is still classified as genuine Sardinian, Modern Corsican is considered to be a different language from Old Corsican, basically a Tuscan offshoot (though with a strong native Corsican substrate), which could be called "Corso-Tuscan" to emphasise this shift.

However, Gallurese and Sassarese in northern Sardinia are considered to have experienced the same fate of radical Tuscanisation, or alternatively to have brought to Sardinia by immigration and import from the adjacent (across the strait) parts of Corsica (as the southernmost dialect of Corsican and Gallurese/Sassarese are remarkably similar), and for this reason, Gallurese and Sassarese are usually classified as Corsican (or "Corso-Tuscan" in the above terminology) rather than "Northern Sardinian", as could be expected on geographical grounds.

Given this history, one could describe Modern Corsican as "Standard Italian with a strong Sardinian accent" and expect that strongly Sardinian-influenced varieties of Italian spoken in the remotest parts of Sardinia (such as the Gennargentu) would exhibit some similarity to Corsican dialects. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Here it is stated (if I am understanding this correctly) that Gallurese was brought to Sardinia through an immigration of Corsican shepherds at the beginning of the 17th century. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 06:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Southern Corsican ("oltremuntanu") is - like Sardinian - a romance Language, while northern Corsican ("cismuntanu"), which is spoken in about two third of the island, is practically Tuscan, i.e. an Italo-Dalmatian Language. See Bertoni, "Italia dialettale", p. 147, e G. Devoto "il linguaggio d'Italia". This has occurred, as is written above, because the north part of the island has been exposed during the middle age to a massive immigration from tuscany (cfr. the Corsican Surnames). So, a classifiation of Corsican as a whole is senseless, since actually in Corsica are spoken two languages. Alex2006 (talk) 04:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

A-ha! Very interesting. So Gallurese and Sassarese are Insular Romance, too? And the boundary between Insular and Italo-Romance runs right through Corsica? Do you happen to know which isoglosses are the most important of those used for the demarcation? Does the preservation of -s in Insular Romance play the role I suspect it should? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:09, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

That`s what affirm G. Bertoni: "Italia Dialettale"; and Giacomo Devoto: "Il linguaggio d`Italia". Bertoni describes (par. 97.) the characteristics of the oltremontanu (with respect to the cismontanu) that allow to insert it in the Sardinian system and make of these languages "un nuovo gruppo di parlari romanzi" Alex2006 (talk) 03:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Good. It would be great if you could name some of these characteristics because I don't have these books at home. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Ich werde es gerne tun, wenn ich nach Hause gehe :-) Alex2006 (talk) 05:06, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I notice that Corsica#Languages supports the "oltremuntanu"/"cismuntanu" division along the same lines you've given, i. e., the "two languages on Corsica" stance (using the same refs you've given), while this article seems to contradict it. But it is just very unclear on the matter. I think the content from the Corsica article should be integrated here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for writing! At christmas I could finally get the books which I need, in the next weeks I will try to improve the article. In the meantime I wrote a small article about the Cuisine of Corsica... :-) Bye. Alex2006 (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 15 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. We have a clear consensus that the language is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

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• Corsican language → Corsican
• Corsican → Corsican (disambiguation)

– WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 07:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose: Who says that Primary Topic and Common Name for the language are defined by the word "Corsican"? Moreover, French, German, Italian and many other nationality adjectives follow on wikipedia the current scheme: this change, if adopted, should be adopted for each one of these adjectives, and this needs a centralised discussion. Alex2006 (talk) 07:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - nonsense In ictu oculi (talk) 09:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose no reasoning provided on why this is primary; and this is clearly NOT the primary topic, which is an adjective for Corsica, per WP:ADJECTIVE -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 07:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
• COMMENT is this a bunch of WP:POINT violations? -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 07:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is. Maybe you could request a block? — kwami (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Khestwol (talk) 09:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Alex2006.Jeppiz (talk) 13:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Speedy close. Yet another attempt by Shhhhwwww to subvert NCLANG rather than having an honest discussion there. — kwami (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Vowels — «Inherited as open or close»

In the phonology section it's said that [o] and [ɔ] are inherited. But from where? The examples are locu [ˈlogu] 'place' and notte [ˈnɔtɛ] 'night'. Yet they go back to Latin LŎCU^M and NŎCTE^M, which regularly developed to [ˈlwɔgo] (ancient: [ˈlɔco], then diphthongised in open syllable) and [ˈnɔtːe] in Tuscan. So where can the close vowel in [ˈlogu] be inherited from?(I'm generally rather doubtful as the vowel description is concerned.) --Galtzaile (talk) 16:27, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea what was meant by the "inherited" comment, but you're right: stressed /o/ and /ɔ/ in Corsica are generally reversed from what would be expected. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2018 (UTC)