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Was not Achilles a historical personality ? Any date or documents ? ([[User:Blake Peter|Blake Peter]] ([[User talk:Blake Peter|talk]]) 12:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC))
Was not Achilles a historical personality ? Any date or documents ? ([[User:Blake Peter|Blake Peter]] ([[User talk:Blake Peter|talk]]) 12:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC))
:{{ping|Blake Peter}} Achilles is almost certainly nothing more than a legendary figure. The ''[[Iliad]]'', the earliest surviving source that mentions him, was probably written in around the eighth century BC; whereas the events it describes purportedly took place in the early twelfth century BC, around four or five hundred years earlier. We do have [[Mycenaean Greece|Mycenaean]] documents written in [[Linear B]] script that mention people named "Achilleus" (the original Greek name for ''Achilles''), but these people are just ordinary scribes or civilians. There is no historical evidence to suggest that there was ever a real, historical warrior named Achilles who really did any of the things that the legendary Achilles is said to have done. Even if there ''was'' at some point a real, historical figure whose life later became the basis for the legend, the Achilles we know today is almost pure legend. The story of Achilles's heel, probably the best-known story involving Achilles today, is never mentioned in the ''Iliad'' or the ''Odyssey'' and is not even attested at all until the first century, over 1,000 years after Achilles is alleged to have lived. --[[User:Katolophyromai|Katolophyromai]] ([[User talk:Katolophyromai|talk]]) 14:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
:{{ping|Blake Peter}} Achilles is almost certainly nothing more than a legendary figure. The ''[[Iliad]]'', the earliest surviving source that mentions him, was probably written in around the eighth century BC; whereas the events it describes purportedly took place in the early twelfth century BC, around four or five hundred years earlier. We do have [[Mycenaean Greece|Mycenaean]] documents written in [[Linear B]] script that mention people named "Achilleus" (the original Greek name for ''Achilles''), but these people are just ordinary scribes or civilians. There is no historical evidence to suggest that there was ever a real, historical warrior named Achilles who really did any of the things that the legendary Achilles is said to have done. Even if there ''was'' at some point a real, historical figure whose life later became the basis for the legend, the Achilles we know today is almost pure legend. The story of Achilles's heel, probably the best-known story involving Achilles today, is never mentioned in the ''Iliad'' or the ''Odyssey'' and is not even attested at all until the first century, over 1,000 years after Achilles is alleged to have lived. --[[User:Katolophyromai|Katolophyromai]] ([[User talk:Katolophyromai|talk]]) 14:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for that answer. very informative ([[User:Blake Peter|Blake Peter]] ([[User talk:Blake Peter|talk]]) 06:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)) @Katolophyromai :{{ping|Katolophyromai}}


==Death and Iliad==
==Death and Iliad==

Revision as of 06:08, 15 June 2018

Former featured article candidateAchilles is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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DateProcessResult
January 19, 2004Refreshing brilliant proseNot kept

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Ligyron, the original name of Achilles

According to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.13.6) the original name of the Greek hero was Ligyron and Chiron called him Achilles.

ICE77 (talk) 07:44, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Was not Achilles a historical personality ? Any date or documents ? (Blake Peter (talk) 12:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC))[reply]

@Blake Peter: Achilles is almost certainly nothing more than a legendary figure. The Iliad, the earliest surviving source that mentions him, was probably written in around the eighth century BC; whereas the events it describes purportedly took place in the early twelfth century BC, around four or five hundred years earlier. We do have Mycenaean documents written in Linear B script that mention people named "Achilleus" (the original Greek name for Achilles), but these people are just ordinary scribes or civilians. There is no historical evidence to suggest that there was ever a real, historical warrior named Achilles who really did any of the things that the legendary Achilles is said to have done. Even if there was at some point a real, historical figure whose life later became the basis for the legend, the Achilles we know today is almost pure legend. The story of Achilles's heel, probably the best-known story involving Achilles today, is never mentioned in the Iliad or the Odyssey and is not even attested at all until the first century, over 1,000 years after Achilles is alleged to have lived. --Katolophyromai (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that answer. very informative (Blake Peter (talk) 06:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)) @Katolophyromai :@Katolophyromai:[reply]

Death and Iliad

Does anyone know if the Iliad mentions his death or if not, why not? I was reading https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Iliad_(Murray)/Book_XXIV and the last mention sounds like he's still alive, which is weird because I thought it covered everything.

Iliad mentions:

the epic narrative takes up events prophesied for the future, such as Achilles' imminent death and the fall of Troy, although the narrative ends before these events take place. However, as these events are prefigured and alluded to more and more vividly, when it reaches an end the poem has told a more or less complete tale of the Trojan War

So at some point in the Iliad it talks about the prophecy of his death but doesn't actually verify it?

Which work does actually talk about the prophecy coming true? The Odyssey maybe? ScratchMarshall (talk) 22:34, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ScratchMarshall: Achilles's actual death is not described in the Iliad because the Iliad does not actually cover the entire Trojan War; in fact, it only covers a brief period lasting ten days during the final year of the war. For one thing, the poem says almost nothing about the beginning of the war or anything that happened during the first ten years of it. Furthermore, the poem also ends long before the war does, and there many very famous episodes from the final part of the war, including the deaths of Penthesilea, Achilles, and Paris, the theft of the Palladium, the suicide of Ajax, the Trojan Horse, the burning of Troy, and the departure of the Greek ships, that are simply never mentioned at all. That is because the particular conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon that is the focus of the epic is naturally resolved with the return of Hector's body in the last book of the Iliad; everything that happened after that is simply outside the scope of the poem.
The story of the Trojan Horse is retold in flashback by the blind bard Demodocus in Book VIII of the Odyssey while Odysseus is in the court of King Alcinous. Odysseus also meets the ghost of Achilles in the Underworld during the famous nekyia scene in Book XI, in which Achilles tells him that he would rather be the lowest slave on earth than the prince of the dead he is in Hades. Even here, however, the famous story about Achilles being shot in the heel by Paris is never mentioned; that is a much later elaboration, first mentioned, I believe, by the geographer Strabo in the early first century AD and later expanded on by other writers. If you are looking for information about the last few months of the Trojan War, the death of Achilles, and the fall of Troy, I would recommend reading the Posthomerica, also known as the Fall of Troy, which was written in the late fourth century AD by Quintus Smyrnaeus to span the gap between the Iliad and the Odyssey. There were originally other, much older poems that filled this period as part of the Epic Cycle, but all those have been lost, except for a few brief fragments. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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