Talk:Eswatini

Requested move 19 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: clearly, this discussion will not result in a consensus to move the page as proposed at this time. Wikipedia does not necessarily use official titles (WP:OFFICIAL). If reliable sources begin to use "eSwatini" and there is a clear shift in common usage (WP:COMMONNAME), it may be worth revisiting this, but only after those shifts take place. Dekimasuよ! 10:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

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Swaziland → eSwatini – Swaziland has changed their name to eSwatini. As a result of this name change, the article on the country should be changed to eSwatini with a redirect from Swaziland. - Emil Sayahi (talk) 16:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Is this name change recognized by other nations?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 16:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support - The King of Swaziland is an absolute monarch, this decision has been speculated for some time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.93.5 (talk) 19:12, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

  Claims that the king determines the Wikipedia title requires several violations of WP:CRYSTAL and WP:SYNTHESIS to get there: first, an unsubstantiated claim that, because the country is an absolute monarchy, that there's no further legal process to promulgating acts in that country; second, that because an official announcement says so, that anyone outside of Swaziland, or even anyone inside Swaziland that isn't under pressure, is going to use it; and third, a totally imagined theory that Wikipedia is based on wishes or future (even allegedly-imminent) common use rather than current common use. --Closeapple (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - Until we are sure that this name is internationally recognized. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:05, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Not active enough to vote, but international recognition of a name shouldn't really be a reason to oppose. A country's name is more-or-less an internal matter, and even in cases such as Republic of Macedonia, where there are disputes, Wikipedia's used the self-declared name. Mnmazur (talk) 01:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - WP:COMMONNAME; similar situation arose with the Czech Republic/Czechia recently ⇒ Chris0282 (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - Agree with Knowledgekid87. Name still needs to be accepted by the community and at this stage we're unsure how the English language name for the country will reflect this, "Deutschland" gets called "Germany" for instance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypherzero0 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment: Unlike Germany, Swaziland/eSwati has English as one of its official languages. This comparison cripples. Steinbach (talk) 18:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Abstain - I believe it is prudent to note that Swaziland is an absolute monarchy (diarchy, eh) so the King *is* the State to an extent. I see both perspectives having weight and currently the situation is murky. I would like to see international reactions to this news.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 17:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as per above & COMMONNAME, Might get picked up internationally as eSwatini but for now atleast it should remain at Swaziland. –Davey2010^Talk 17:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Per COMMONNAME. New names don't necessarily catch on (e.g. Czechia). Number 57 17:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. This is not too dissimilar from the cases with Kiev ("Kyiv") and Czech Republic ("Czechia"). SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Abstain: On the one hand, I feel Wikipedia should use common/vernacular English names when they are not confusing or inherently offensive. That would mean "Swaziland". On the other hand, this is not what the English Wikipedia usually does. We have Czech Republic, Belarus, and Côte d'Ivoire rather than Czechia, Belorussia, and Ivory Coast. That's a very strong case for "eSwatini". In case of doubt: don't change. Let's monitor closely how its usage will evolve and then vote again in a year or so. Steinbach (talk) 18:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Well, we actually use "Ivory Coast" as the page name, and not "Côte d'Ivoire", but I agree with your point. Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Sorry, it was Côte d'Ivoire when I last checked. :) Steinbach (talk) 19:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Abstain/Oppose for now per reasons listed above by Steinbach and others. Let's come back to this in around a year. Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. If eSwatini becomes commonly accepted in English language media then we should change the name then. In the meantime the mention in the opening paragraph and the redirect from eSwatini are sufficient. DM Andy (talk) 19:05, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Michael (talk) 19:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, and also WP:NOTNEWS. Wait to see other countries and official entities recognize this name in English before moving. Oren0 (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Abstain and wait to see what happens in common English usage, as per e.g. Burma and Myanmar. Dreigorich (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONAME. It might end up being another case of czechia, where the "official name" is never widely used. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 20:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose until International consensus is reached. It's too early yet. Zerbey (talk) 20:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support - with qualifications. The example most commonly cited here is Czechia, which has never caught on as the name of the Czech Republic, but more germane examples are Burkina Faso and Myanmar, which were unilaterally-imposed name changes for Upper Volta and Burma. These countries' names were changed more or less immediately in the popular press. The Czech Republic might be a bit different because as a member of the European Union and NATO, it might be more familiar to a broader swath of English speakers, and hence the name might have more inertia. It could well be appropriate to keep the old name for a short period, but it certainly should be reviewed much, much sooner than a year. Illexsquid (talk) 21:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, Wikipedia did not adopt Myanmar until August 2015, more than 26 years after the name change was officially announced. Kahastok talk 21:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

That seems a compelling reason for Wikipedia to avoid being behind the curve this time :-0 Stub Mandrel (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose until and unless it can be demonstrated that the new name is also the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Kahastok talk 21:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support and also, strongly agree with Illexsquid, please sooner than a year. WP is a living resource, in contrast to old school encyclopedia books. Also, the former(current) name is the colonial name, and if the country is changing it to the pre-colonial name, the change should be respected. Also, waiting for adoption among (essentially)colonial media outlets seems like a standard prone to bias. alisonjo2786 (talk) 22:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support It seems no-one has gone beyond the news reports and actually visited the government website and read the king's speech. IMHO countries have a right to have a name in their language rather than an English one. Come to think of it when will the Wales page on wikipedia become a redirect to Cymru rather than the other way around? Stub Mandrel (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

  I certainly went to the website: You're talking about the one that says "the Government of the Kingdom of Swaziland" right across the top, right? Where is the speech? --Closeapple (talk) 22:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:WIAN, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RECENTISM. Even the jump-the-gun intro admits to "commonly and formerly known as Swaziland". Not even the website of the Government of the Kingdom of Swaziland uses eSwatini (as of 2018-04-19). The king's announcement notwithstanding, I've seen absolutely no source other than the king himself, not even its own government, that uses "eSwatini" as the habitual name for this place. Even yesterday's news sources mention that the king has been using "eSwatini" for a while now and it didn't catch on yet. --Closeapple (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: Per WP:COMMONNAME. — pythoncoder  (talk | contribs) 22:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Neutral I can see another "Cote d'Ivoire" situation happening here. Yes, COMMONNAME is important, yet also is accuracy, and Wikipedia would not be accurate if carrying on the Anglo-centric naming of this article. HOWEVER I understand the importance of COMMONNAME for exactly these circumstances. Maybe the lede could be rewritten so the "new" name is the first emboldened term? doktorb _words^deeds 22:30, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• It is way too soon to be having this discussion. Per WP:RECENTISM, we should not react so drastically to breaking news or recent events. We should wait to see how the news sources, nations, and international organizations are addressing this, per WP:COMMONNAME. Although Swaziland is still in common usage today (heck, even http://www.gov.sz/ still uses "Swaziland"), that could change in 7 days when this discussion is supposed to end. Therefore, I would not be comfortable with making a decision at this time. Oppose for now, but reconsider after an appropriate period of time has passed. Edge3 (talk) 22:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support I guess it's okay to hold off until the spelling is standardized, presumably not to start with a lowercase e. However, if that is what Swazis, or even just the king wants, so be it. Mirza Ahmed (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Until (and unless!) eSwatini becomes common usage in English, it remains Swaziland. — D. Wo. 23:12, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

weak oppose for now Citing the precedence of WP's Burma to Myanmar move it should happen at some point but wait for UN/AU recognition (Swaziland can always be forwarded).Lihaas (talk) 23:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support for reasons already stated by Stub Mandrel, Alisonjo2786 and Illexsquid. Rariteh (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. At this point we don't have any examples of reliable sources using "eSwatini" in articles not about the name change, let alone any evidence that common usage has changed. Thryduulf (talk) 23:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia articles constantly change to become more up to date, eSwati is the up to date name for the country formerly known as Swaziland. Bobbbcat (talk) 00:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support The common theme for opposition here seems to be WP:COMMONNAME, which I think is a stunningly unsuitable policy to enforce when it comes to the official names of countries. It is not up to Wikipedia or "reliable sources" (what does this even mean? Surely the government of a nation should be a reliable source on a name change for that country?) to determine what a sovereign nation gets to call itself, and Wikipedia policies are neither infallible nor always right or sensible; at least the examples cited like Czechia and Belorussia are still recognizably the same name as the nations' Anglicized/older names- Swaziland and eSwatini are not. As others have also pointed out, what is the point in being a digital encyclopedia in the information age if we can't update these articles to change with the times? What difference is there between Wiki and a printed encyclopedia that must wait years for republishing to reflect any changes? Wait for a proper decree or whatever is published, then change the name.- ක - (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia is often frustratingly slow to pick up name changes. Who decides what's common use? People on the internet? If news articles and almanacs already will be using the new name, why not switch it now? This is an encyclopedia after all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.233.122.234 (talk) 01:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• comment how about considering when, and if, their TLD, .sz, is changed? (mercurywoodrose)2602:304:CFD0:6350:787F:233D:9DB0:A673 (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia follows instead of leads. This is a very recent change, and change takes time. The government's website still refers to it as Swaziland. While I absolutely support the name change in principle, it is still too soon. I would like to see official international organisations use the name before we make a full switch, much less the government's website. Also, we do not always use the shortened official name of the country as the main page (evidenced by Ivory Coast or East Timor). SportingFlyer talk 02:31, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm personally very conservative on name changes unless they are clearly not matters of translation and this is entirely a matter of translation..."eSwatini" is Swazi for Swaziland.While Upper Volta changed its name to an entirely different name ("Burkina Faso" refers to the people,not a part of a river basin),Ivory Coast,East Timor,Burma,and now Swaziland have basically asked English-speakers not to use English,which is beyond their authority.I am more extreme than Wikiconsensus (I consider referring to Peking as "Beijing" akin to calling Naples "Napoli" or Germany "Deutschland" as English words) but I have to register a voice.Native-language names should be noted,but not defined as English-language names.12.144.5.2 (talk) 04:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Swaziland remains the common name (in English) for this country, just like Ivory Coast is the common English name for "Côte d'Ivoire". English speakers, not foreign kings, determine how nations are called in English. Also, since eSwatini translates to "land of the Swazis", it is practically synonymous with "Swaziland". —General534 (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose In line with previous objections Roger 8 Roger (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Oh gosh, if the supreme leader in Budapest grasps that, you would have to change every mention of Hungary to Magyarország because Magyars are of course not to be mistaken for Huns. --Pakeha (talk) 06:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support per the reasons above – I'm also slightly frustrated by how slow Wikipedia is to promulgate official changes in naming and terminology. —Nightstallion
• Oppose suggested rename I oppose the renaming of it to simply "eSwatini" if it is to be renamed at some point then it should be renamed to "Kingdom of eSwatini" however as it stands, it is unlikely to be renamed. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 09:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose & Depose. Tiny unimportant country unlikely to have sufficient military resources to defend against a Wikipedia-led coup. Oppose name change, overthrow current government/ruling body and instill WP:DEMOCRACY to ensure current name is kept. 125.239.173.127 (talk) 10:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose We use the most common English name see Cape Verde, Ivory Coast, and East Timor, They have different official names than what Wikipedia uses Abote2 (talk) 10:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. This change is simply too soon. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 10:20, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I am afraid other nations, even South Africa where I live, will take a very long time to adjust to this name. Readers will feel they are at the incorrect page. I feel changes to the infobox, which have been done already, are appropriate – however, change to the article title is too soon as Swaziland is WP:COMMONNAME. -- Waddie96 (talk) 10:26, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose As of now most media still refers to it as Swaziland - see back in maybe a year, if they start calling it "ESwatini" instead. Juxlos (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
• Wait until we have enough time to assess what reliable sources do. It's fine to revisit this issue in some reasonable amount of time when we can see if reliable sources start calling it by its new name or not. It's just too early to tell. --Jayron32 10:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Jumping the gun with the name change

Someone has gone and replaced all instances of "Swaziland" in the article with the new official name "eSwatini". I think this is considerably too soon and I'm requesting someone to reverse this change. It can be reapplied once the name becomes the common name (WP:COMMONNAME). SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done. –Davey2010^Talk 18:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Undone as my changes also change cites. –Davey2010^Talk 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Have you eliminated *all* references to eSwatini? It probably needs one bold reference near the beginning. EuroAgurbash (talk) 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Something like, "officially the kingdom of eSwatini or something to that effect. ThirdDolphin (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I attempted to reverse the change myself now by using an older revision and to add a compromise into the top section. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I attempted to reverse the change as well. Now it's back to normal in mostly saying Swaziland, but mentioning this new alternate name in the lead for now. Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:31, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

To clarify my revert of this: it also changed the mentions of the name actually being changed as well as the new official name (both in English and Swati) and such, which is I believe it was a net negative. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

A problem now seems to be editors oblivious to the conversation held here - if this keeps happening, the page might need some form of protection. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 18:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection:: Shoot, sorry about messing it up. My bad. Just trying to reverse the "replace all Swaziland with eSwatini" change. (Like, unless this discussion reaches a consensus to change everything to "eSwatini", it might not be best to have everything say eSwatini. For now, it's an alternate name that it's not commonly known by yet. Like, the North Korea article uses "North Korea" a lot instead of "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" everywhere.) Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Paintspot:: Yeah, but KCNA uses both “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” and “North Korea”. Rariteh (talk) 23:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I read KCNA fairly regularly and I don't think I've ever seen them call themselves "North Korea". Maybe very rarely in certain contexts. But they usually say "DPRK", and sometimes just "Korea". They actually don't like the name "North Korea" and they don't encourage it because they don't recognize the division of the country as legitimate and don't want to encourage the idea that Korea is two countries. Kawada Kira (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I have now requested page protection via WP:RFP. I cannot keep reverting further. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 19:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

As a note, this revision has the country names mostly correct according to the current consensus - eSwatini should only appear in official names, mentions of the name change and the top section (but nowhere else, such as the common_name on the country infobox). SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 19:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't think the article should start with the new name until, and only if, the article name is moved. I think it's just wholly inconsistent the way it looks now. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

•  Administrator note I have semi-protected the article for 1 week; please continue discussing the name change here. I've also removed the {{update}} maintenance tag because I felt it might mislead users inclined to changing the name throughout the article into doing so. Mz7 (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

At what point does the name change become 'official' the King's decree is on the official Swaziland Government website [[1]] [[2]]. May I strongly suggest that once the website has changed the name, Wikipedia should follow suit. Also the direct link to the King's speech should take precedence over the BBC report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stub Mandrel (talk • contribs) 22:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Once everyone refers to it as “ESwatini” instead of Swaziland - the same reason it’s North Korea instead of DPRK. Maybe a few months at the earliest. Juxlos (talk) 22:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I believe the difference in this case is even I am not sure how to pronounce the new name. Related to that, there should be an IPA in English and Swazi in the lede.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 23:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The name change became "official" immediately upon the King's decree. Swaziland's own name for itself is now "Kingdom of eSwatini". However, you seem to be confusing "official name" with "name of the Wikipedia page". These are not the same thing. It is conceivable that the official name will become commonly used in English in just a few months, and the page would then be moved. It is also conceivable that the name change may never become common in English usage, and the page would then not be moved. --Khajidha (talk) 14:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I think User:Tariqabjotus decision to not move Burma --> Myanmar in 2012 is a good read. And Relevant. [3] --LaserLegs (talk) 23:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The example of North Korea is misleading, the DPRK is the official long name not the short hand, it would be comparable to the Kingdom of eSwatini rather than eSwatini. I fail to see how it is too soon to change the name given the decree has already been made by the absolute monarch of said country. 2A02:C7F:7212:4400:D253:49FF:FE99:A4E7 (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Taiwan is a better example than North Korea. Official name is Republic of China, but most people refer to it as Taiwan since it's shorter. Indeed, that's the name Wikipedia refers to it as. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 01:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

What about the example of Greece? The name of the article should reflect how the country is referred to in English language and the English language doesn't change by a decision of a monarch. Džuris (talk) 09:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Greece is not a good example as they all hate being called Greece instead of Hellas. Seriously, as a Greek, it does reaaallllyyyy annoy us immensely. It shouldnt change by a decision of a monarch, but if the people you label as such, you should deem it common courtesy to honor their request. It is their historical name, and the British called it Swaziland due to the decision of the monarch at the time.. so your answer is hypocritical and I disagree completely, Džuris. Κοματσουλάκης (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

eSwatini or Eswatini?

In Germanic languages, capital letters are not used in the centre of words. Should the new name be written Eswatini rather than eSwatini? I believe it should. DG (talk) 11:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The word itself is in the Swazi language and is the official name for the country, the correct format is eSwatini while those outside of the country will likely continue to refer to it as Swaziland so there's no need for the change. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 11:34, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree here. Should the name "eSwatini" become official and the common name, we'll see how the capitalization holds. I think there will be an inevitable shift to "Eswatini" in usage from the original "eSwatini". Botswana is a precedent, from a prefix Bo- + Tswana, as is Lesotho. Dreigorich (talk) 11:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Botswana is different because Setswana has a different capitalization scheme. They don't capitalize in the middle of words, so you have Motswana/Batswana/Setswana/Botswana. But siSwati has a different capitalization scheme, so you get umSwati/emaSwati/siSwati/eSwatini. For a precedent, look KwaZulu-Natal, which keeps the capitalization in the middle of the word. Also the Zulu language is occasionally written isiZulu in English. Smashhoof2 (talk) 00:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

That is not true at all. English is a germanic language and we have names like McDonalds McRobert etc I know hundreds of people with names that have capital letters in the middle of them (although i know they probably originate from Gaelic languages originally)

We also have things like iPad and iPhone. Sure, those are brand names, but I haven't seen much tendency to render them as Iphone and Ipad for Germanic language reasons.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

M(a)c- is a Celtic prefix connected to a term for "ancestor" and it still starts with a capital latter itself. Also I have rarely seen a lack of a subsequent capital, there are some "Macdonalds"for instance. If "Eswatini" becomes common Anglicized usage then that is perfectly acceptable.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 14:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, Botswana and Lesotho aren't comparable: Sotho and Tswana capitalisation conventions are different from those of the Nguni languages, like Swati. And the South African province of KwaZulu-Natal (and before that the Bantustan of KwaZulu) provide precedent for a 'non-standard' capitalisation being accepted in English for what is, after all, a loan word. 105.8.5.41 (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

While there should not be any issue with countries changing their names according to their preference (its their sovereign right to do so), there should be concerns when these names - usually a transliteration of the traditional or local name of the country - require breaking the basic rules of the English language, when the name is to appear in an English language article. I believe one basic rule of English is that the spelling of proper nouns - which the names of countries are (I don't think they should be comparable to brand names like "iPad", or maybe they should?) - must begin with the upper case. Hence, the spelling "eSwatini", which is correct in Siswati, is deemed not correct IN ENGLISH. Bending of the rules of English to allow words from non-English languages which use the Latin alphabet to be rendered in their original spelling or spelling rules may seem harmless but this opens up to the situation where non-English spelling rules, some which are in conflict with English, start being introduced. Côte d'Ivoire is a good example where "ô" is not a letter in the English Latin alphabet and there is no "d'I" in English spelling. If Hungary decides that the world needs to refer to it as Magyarország only, do we bring "á" into the English language? If adopting "ô" or "á" is OK, which essentially is introducing letters of another alphabet into the English language, then why just stop there and not go further to adopt the Icelandic "Þ"? Or letters of the Greek Alphabet? Or even Arabic or Chinese characters? I have no problem if one day China insisted that it be called Zhongguo or Chungkuo in its English form, but if you force me to render your name as 中国 in all documents irrespective of language, I don't think that wound be accepted. Knowing how to read and pronounce letters or characters of another alphabet is commendable and should be encouraged, but they should not be forced into the English language. So, it should be Eswatini in English, and eSwatini in Siswati (name in the English context).Slleong (talk) 06:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

I believe one basic rule of English is that the spelling of proper nouns [...] must begin with the upper case. Hence, the spelling "eSwatini", which is correct in Siswati, is deemed not correct IN ENGLISH.

Tried this argument on the talk pages of, say, Leonardo da Vinci or Rio de Janeiro? English (but specifically: the English-language Wikipedia) imports common foreign names with their native capitalization. (For that matter, importation isn't necessary: we preserve uncapitalized double-f in English names like Baron ffrench and ffolkes baronets.) There's no reason to recapitalize eSwatini when we leave these other spellings unaltered. --Heath 184.170.76.239 (talk) 13:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Very interesting. Thanks for pointing out Baron ffrench and ffolkes baronets as I never learnt those in school. And indeed we accept "da Vinci" in this form when referring to Leonardo's family name, and use the lover case when using Romance language words. I guess the main takeaway from this is that we will always have exceptions to established rules or conventions. The question would then be when do we allow exceptions which bend rules and conventions, and how far do we go with the exceptions - only for Latin alphabet languages? Including all the "non-English" letters of the Latin alphabet? Slleong (talk) 05:00, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

It should be Eswatini. See the legal notice [4][5].--QBear (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Please cite the portion of that legal notice that has any force over anyone outside of the country itself or not bound by diplomatic protocol. --Khajidha (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I mean the official name should be Eswatini instead of eSwatini which was reported by some media. I agree that "Swaziland" is still the common name.--QBear (talk) 15:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"eSwatini" and variations in Swazilander English dialect?

Here is a point to pay attention to perhaps as time moves along considering the name of this Kingdom: Considering that English is a co-official language of this nation as is with South Africa, Botswana, etc.in this region of former British influence, should we see if "eSwatini"takes particular precedence over "Swaziland" in the dialect of the country and that region of Southern Africa in general? I am not familiar with the English of Swazilanders (and only know a little of South African English), but maybe this is also worth taking note of. Maybe there is no difference or a total shift, or maybe it shouldn't be considered? What do you think?-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 14:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Is Swaziland still the most common name for this country??

This article is still titled Swaziland, meaning that this must still be the most common name for the country. What's wrong here?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Nothing. The announcement was just made. There is no way thay references to the country (not just the name change) are using eSwatini yet. --Khajidha (talk) 15:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

You mean, Wikipedia is supposed to use the most common name even if dated?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I mean that right now the only usage of "eSwatini" is stories saying "Swaziland is now eSwatini". No one is wrotimg about elections in eSwatini. Or earthquakes in eSwatini. Or construction projects in eSwatini. When the proponderance of sources switch we will switch. --Khajidha (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

We don't know if the name is dated until we see which name is in common usage. Give it time; this is not the sort of knowledge we can accumulate instantaneously; we need to see how reliable sources handle this information, and our usage will reflect theirs. --Jayron32 18:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes!! Most English speakers (outside of Swaziland and South Africa) still use "Swaziland" Just because the Swazi government made this change official, does not mean the the term "Swaziland" has gone out of common usage in the English language. I will remind all of our editors here of the following Wikipedia policy, which is quite clear on these matters: WP:COMMONNAME - Wiz9999 (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

help

Please move Swaziland to eSwatini the name of the country has now changed.

http://time.com/5247743/swaziland-king-renames-country-eswatini/ https://news.sky.com/story/king-of-swaziland-changes-his-countrys-name-to-eswatini-11338333 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-43821512

This has been discussed above, and persuant to Wikipedia guidelines, it is generally agreed that we follow common usage, so when the rest of the world starts using this name in regular usage, we will too. --Jayron32 18:04, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Is new name oficially confirmed?

Is any official confirmation of this new name? Media reported about it, but change of country name is to serious matter to rely only on the media. The name of "Kingdom of Swaziland" is listed in the country constitution, and no official information that constitution has been amended. Moreover, government website still uses name "Kingdom of Swaziland". Aotearoa (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

When it comes to government sources in sub-Saharan Africa, I would refer back to the debate over the "The" in "Republic of The Gambia" after the last President fled and whether it should be capitalized or not. It took a while to update IIRC because these kinds of countries can't handle an efficient bureaucracy for revising everything. It's low priority even for a name change. King Mswati III is the face and final word of the Executive branch and his dictum becomes law when he speaks it in a sense.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 20:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I'd wait to see what happens at, e.g. the UN or official reputable English-language sources to see how they handle the change to see if the country becomes "Eswatini", "ESwatini" or "eSwatini", remains "Swaziland", or if there is dispute between all four names in the sources (particularly with Swaziland versus the other forms of the new name). Dreigorich (talk) 20:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, King Mswati III is the face and final word for everything in the country, but even in Swaziland kings orders/decisions/acts/... have to be published. To the moment we have only media information and no any official confirmation. Moreover without any official document we don't know the correct spelling of new name – media said "eSwatini" but on which evidence if no "paper" decision? I think Wikipedia is to hurry and made changes without strong sources (few months ago Wikipedia created a new country on the base of media information/speculation only) – it is better to wait few days/weeks than to change information to potentially incorrect one. Aotearoa (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

FYI, the website is http://www.gov.sz/ Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The banner with the whole name is a .jpg instead of HTML for the title....a redesign may slow down the update.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 22:26, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The government website mentioned above by Andy is using eSwatini, I'd consider this official confirmation of the new name. Kges1901 (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh wow it seems it was updated just today in whole, that's a good development. I'd like to see this spread as evidence.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 18:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

This name has been discussed for several years [6] and NatGeo has recognized the change [7] Legacypac (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to wait at least a month (and probably 3-6 months) before another RM. It needs to be clear what the standard capitalization is from usage by newspapers, the UN, other governments, etc.; if it isn't, there's no reason to do the move. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:10, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

It seems that Swaziland has made similar change like in India (states, cities) – ie. adopted local name as English one without change of this local name. The country name in Swazi has been eSwatini (short form) and Umbuso weSwatini (long/official form) and this name is still binding. Aotearoa (talk) 06:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation of eSwatini

The article currently transcribes eSwatini as /ɛˈswɑːtɪni/, but this seems a bit wrong. The Swazi pronunciation is [ɛswatʼiːni], so I think it is best adapted to English as /ɛswɑːˈtiːni/ or /eɪswɑːˈtiːni/. However, this word does not have an established pronunciation in English yet, so it may be best not to transcribe it. Smashhoof2 (talk) 01:00, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

The Swazi pronunciation should definitely be included. As for English, in this case standard Anglicized stress should apply since most people who come to page will probably be looking for at least a basic idea of how to even say the name. The initial "e" phoneme is a problem though....maybe we shouldn't include it but who knows.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 01:34, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

This is the English wiki. The Swazi version is not relevant here. Except as local name. --Wester (talk) 15:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes obviously but see nearly every other country page on this site. For instance Germany includes the IPA transcription for Bundesrepublik Deutschland....-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 16:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Ritual fetishes

What exactly are these ritual fetishes in the lead section and what does it mean to be their keeper? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:9289:6531:6f9b:9eae:3de4:cdfb (talk • contribs) 10:14, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Symbolic objects relevant to the country, I take it, like Britain's crown jewels.59.124.5.22 (talk) 07:20, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2018

Hi I would want to change this to eSwatini Adi7842 (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Per WP:COMMONNAME we are to use names that are in common use in English language media and sources, and eSwatini does not meet that criterion. It would also require a formal discussion since a move is likely to be contested because of WP:COMMONNAME. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 18:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Changing "Kingdom of eSwatini" to "Kingdom of Eswatini"

@Slleong, DG, ChieftanTartarus, Dreigorich, Smashhoof2, Amakuru, Sigehelmus, Khajidha, and Paintspot:

The official name of the country should be "Kingdom of Eswatini" Here are the references:

1. Legal Notice No.80 of 2018 published in the Swaziland Government Gazette on May 18[8][9].
2. Swaziland govenment website [10] (Copyright © 2018. Eswatini Government.)
3. "Country Names May 2018" published by the UK government[11]
4. "Independent States in the World" published by the U.S Department of State on May 30.[12]

Any comments?--QBear (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

This is just about changing the official name listed in this article from eSwatini to Eswatini, correct? It has nothing to do with the actual page name or usage in running prose, correct? I have no objection to that. --Khajidha (talk) 15:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, just the "official full name". I changed that few days ago, but User:Paintspot reverted it and told me to get some sort of consensus. This should also apply to the name in List of sovereign states.--QBear (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Interesting find. So apparently my hypothesis was correct! Dreigorich (talk) 17:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

We'll have to see if other sources follow suit as well, though.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The "official full name" or "formal name" should only depend on the country itself. Since Swaziland did not published the official document until May 18, about a month after the King's announcement. It was understandable that why some source used "eSwatini". But I think it is clear that which one is "official" now.--QBear (talk) 01:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

This might be a wild theory but "Eswantini" isn't just an unfortunate case of auto-capitialisation when typing into a computer or device, is it? doktorb _words^deeds 05:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

No Comment, not interested in this topic, it's not like the code for these pages is case sensitive, so why should we be? This obsession with grammar is stale. Also iPod, is no different to how eSwatini is capitalised, just saying. Search Bicapitalization if you're interested further. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

"The obsession with grammar is stale," is not a statement I agree with, though this is a discussion for another place. doktorb _words^deeds 07:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The World Factbook by CIA [13] and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Taiwan [14][15] are also using "Kingdom of Eswatini". Therefore I don't think these are just "auto-capitialisation" errors.--QBear (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Help request

Country has officially changed its name to Eswatini. Please move the main title to Eswatini.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/latestnews/Swaziland_officially_changes_name_to_Eswatini_advises_foreign_affairs_ministry

http://www.africanews.com/2018/05/19/swaziland-name-change-to-eswatini-is-now-official/

http://menafn.com/1097000949/Swaziland-Officially-Changes-Name-To-Eswatini

Please see the move request and the edit request above. An RFC will be required to establish an exception to WP:COMMONNAME. Yunshui ^雲_水 10:27, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Support I was indifferent before, but the United Nations Statistics Division now recognizes this name change and now lists "Swaziland" as "Eswatini" Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 04:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 16 June 2018

Swaziland → Eswatini – See above. UN has confirmed the name change. 135.23.145.49 (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support per the rationale in the previous talk section: UN website I can understand counterarguments that would suggest that the official UN name shouldn't necessarily be the title because Macedonia is listed as the former Yugoslav republic, but I'm also noticing that it's becoming increasingly common for RS sources to just refer to the country as ESwatini or eSwatini now. Many of the editors that previously opposed stated in their rationale that it was too soon because they were waiting for the international community to recognize this name change, but now that that criteria has been satisfied so many of the editors from the previous discussion may consider supporting renaming the article. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 09:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. We go by what is in common use in English language media, not by what the UN or any other organisation says or by what "the international community recognise", and thus do not change names of articles, i.e. move them, until after a clear majority of English language media/sources have switched to the new name. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 09:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose until/unless the WP:COMMONNAME in English changes, noting that the proposer does not claim that it has. Kahastok talk 11:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose on the grounds that the rationale given by the proposer isn't a valid rationale for a name change under our guidelines (and "see above" isn't a rationale—see what above?). Adding to the echo chamber, see WP:COMMONNAME. Largoplazo (talk) 11:08, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose move for now. We haven't yet reached a point where the common name has changed. I admit that some sources call it ESwatini, but the name "Swaziland" continues to see more common usage. ONR (talk) 11:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Neutral. CIA World Factbook uses the new name. Many other sources such as Britannica and Google Maps still use the old name. --2601:183:101:58D0:1119:4FFF:1508:1FCA (talk) 12:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose move for now. I agree that we haven't yet reached a point where the common name in English has changed - and probably never will. We don't use "Deutschland" rather than Germany and the local language name of eSwatini is not relevant while "Swaziland" continues to see much more common usage in English. --BushelCandle (talk) 13:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I had never even heard of the new name until a couple of minutes ago. PatGallacher (talk) 16:43, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Per WP:NAMECHANGES, this is still too soon to change the name. Not enough secondary sources are using the eSwatini name at this time. --hmich176 17:10, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's way too soon to see if this name sticks. The common name is still the current title. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:52, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the above. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:53, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per all of the above. --Khajidha (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. The UN has officially recognised the name changed so we should. Tofusaurus (talk)

• Naming on Wikipedia isn't based on what the UN says. See the guidelines already linked multiple times above. Largoplazo (talk) 13:07, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• As the banner at the top of this section says !votes should be based on Wikipedia's article naming policy, and other valid policies here, not on personal opinions. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 13:21, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, per WP:COMMONNAME: when common usage changes, as it will eventually, we can move the article to reflect that. -- The Anome (talk) 13:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per the previous RFC as well as obviously all of the above. –Davey2010^Talk 14:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support The English name of the country is now Eswatini. Swaziland may still be slightly more common among the ill-informed, but accuracy is also an important consideration. Eswatini does seem now to be the more common name among those who routinely deal with the country in English, such as American aid workers and epidemiologists. Here's one example: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6723a3.htm?s_cid=mm6723a3_x Furorimpius (talk) 00:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment I've noticed that many of the recent OPPOSE votes mention that they need more secondary sources to use the name first, but I would like to add that it's now a very, very easy task to find many sources referring to the country as eSwatini even when not talking about the name change event. Searching "Eswatini" once returned the following stories whose titles or bodies use the new name:

• ("Sands puts eSwatini on the map" on iol.co.za)
• ("eSwatini says keeping Taiwan diplomatic relations despite Chinese pressure" on Business Insider)
• ("eSwatini prince loves Taiwan, wants to keep studying here" on FocusTaiwan)
• ("Mr Eswatini Finalists 2018 on Charity Dive" on Times of Swaziland)
• ("Eswatini economic factsheet" on the government of the United Kingdom website)
• ("Taiwan holds large military drills amid China tensions" on Ashashi from reuters)
• ("The Federation Establishes Diplomatic Relations With The Kingdom Of Eswatini" on Winn FM)
• ("After 6-country World Race, Hammett’s headed to AU" on Andalusia local news)
• ("Taiwan has lost all its friends in Africa – except eSwatini" on MSN news from ISS Africa Today)

• I got all of these just by searching the term "Eswatini" on DuckDuckGo and looking at news. I can't say with certainty if the COMMONNAME has changed because Swaziland is still used too, but I'd say you can argue that the term "Swaziland" is losing its status as the COMMONNAME. "Eswatini"/"eSwatini" is evidently being used everywhere from major publications to minor publications, international outlets to local outlets in other countries, whether the story is about Eswatini/Swaziland or a different place/person/thing, and even government websites of other countries. Take this argument with a grain of salt because it's difficult to find data on which name is the most commonly used, but the UN accepting the change was enough to sway me on this. It's not just the UN, but also the CIA World Factbook and the UK government - which I'd argue hold a lot of weight as sources - but as I've shown there's even outlets of all sizes now using the new name, and WP:NAMECHANGES say "When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced." Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 20:58, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

... and if you had made a search on Swaziland you would have gotten even more results, since Swaziland still outnumbers eSwatini/Eswatini by a factor of at least 20:1, counting only the last few weeks. Being given extra weight only means that if the usage is even between an old name and a new name we should consider using the new name, it does not mean that we can do a search on the new name only, and point to those results, while conveniently forgetting to do a search on the old name too. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 22:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned that I still found results for Swaziland, but I did not see a factor of "20:1" more results. I found less twenty (a total of exactly 18) Swaziland results total unless I went back at least 57 days, so the claim that there's twenty times as many results for Swaziland is just wrong. That's hyperbolic enough that it's not an honest argument. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:17, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

It's actually a lot more than a factor of 20:1. An "advanced search" on Google limited to pages in English published during the past 30 days returned 18.9 million pages using Swaziland but only 16,400 pages using eSwatini or Eswatini, or a factor of 1,152:1. And even the official website of the government of Swaziland still use the old name... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 22:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Because you mentioned that, I thought I'd try it myself.

Advanced search with the following parameters:

• all these words: Swaziland
• none of these words: Eswatini
• last update: Last month
• terms appearing: Text of the page
• Note that this method is inclusive to results that would not be relevant on the encyclopedia, not just news stories, including any website updated in any way as long as the word "Swaziland" is somewhere in it.

15 pages of results for Swaziland. 9 pages of results for ESwatini. Swaziland produced more results, but not by a ratio of 152:1, 20:1 or even 2:1.

I also went to the government website gov.sz and you can see it displays in all caps "SWAZILAND NOW PROUDLY ESWATINI" on item 5. It also says "Copyright © 2018. Eswatini Government." on the bottom, and it refers to the country only as "Eswatini" on item 2. Even the outdated (it displays today's date on all pages) "About Us" page you linked to which used the word Swaziland actually said "Eswatini Government" on the bottom of the page. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:01, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

As for the official website, did you click on the link I provided in my post? It's a page where the government of Swaziland describe what their country is, its constitution and so on, using Swaziland every time. And there's no way you could have gotten just 15 pages for Swaziland if you searched for all pages published in English worldwide during the past 30 days (heck, even my local news site has used Swaziland more than 15 times during the past month...), so do it again, but do it right this time... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 23:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

You might want to check what I said again. The "About Us" page was outdated (they display today's date on all pages) and **even on that page** it said "Eswatini Government" on the bottom of the page. As for your other argument, you can replicate what I did exactly. 15 and 9 pages of results. I didn't filter by English, but realistically I should have because this affects the English name of the country. If you dismissively say "do it again but do it right" without providing anything else then I can reasonably dismiss that request the same way you dismissed what I said. I told you exactly what I did. Realistically, the amount of times that Swaziland/Eswatini gets referenced in 30 days shouldn't be in the tens of millions unless you're not filtering out any of the irrelevant junk or restricting it to pages that actually use the desired term within the text. When you say "even my local news outlet used Swaziland more than 15 times in the last month" if you're referring to 15 separate individual stories published by your local news outlet then I'd be very surprised unless you live near Swaziland/Eswatini, but if you mean to count every single time they use the word rather than the number of individual publications that use the word then that's highly problematic. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)