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Requested move 16 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested. Dekimasuよ! 06:22, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

His Majesty's Kraton Guard Regiment → Yogyakarta Kraton Guards – better translation of the Indonesian and Javanese originals AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 11:46, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

strong support - who his majesty might be in a title like that is potentially misleading JarrahTree 13:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 15 July 2018

The request to rename this article to Yogyakarta Kraton Guards has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Royal troops of Yogyakarta → Yogyakarta Kraton Guards – Previous move was done without any discussion; we should revert to the article's previous name because it was patently a more accurate translation of both the Indonesian and Javanese names of the regiment AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC) AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Rationale ignores the relevant policy completely. We do not make our own translations except as a last resort. The RM above had little participation and is similarly flawed. The article has only four references, three of them are in Indonesian (one of which is a blog) and the sole English source mentions none of the three titles considered to date. The first thing to do is to find English sources (and preferably not blogs) that mention this topic, and see what name they use (and add them to the article!). Andrewa (talk) 12:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The previous RM was not well supported, but it accurately noted that inclusion of "His Majesty" was unlikely to be adequate (though, cf. Her Majesty's Coastguard, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, His Majesty's Military Staff, etc.), and went unopposed. The subsequent move from June should have been preceded by a move request despite the low participation in the previous discussion. Dekimasuよ! 17:40, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Andrewa There's no generally accepted term in English sources - but variations of palace guards, kraton guards, royal guards etc are used in some newspaper articles & books: eg., http://www.thejakartapost.com/travel/2017/09/14/cirebon-to-host-week-long-festival-of-palaces-this-month.html, https://books.google.co.id/books?id=1TBpBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=%22kraton+guards%22&source=bl&ots=HWGQ3csphm&sig=DZHDJMaXu8g3CkX0Muz9MuYnpQc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr_sXj0bbcAhUBfSsKHbUSCjkQ6AEIXDAJ#v=onepage&q=%22kraton%20guards%22&f=false AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 02:00, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK... so you're saying that there are several different names for this regiment in English sources, but that none of these has greater usage than the others, is that correct? Andrewa (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. But it doesn't mean that all of the translations are correct. Some of the English sources have bad English. And, to be honest, perhaps there just isn't enough interest from internationals writers. That said , if one were to come up with a standardised English name for the regiment, I think that 'Yogyakarta Kraton Guards' would be the most accurate translation of the Indonesian/Javanese original. It's frustrating that a lot of Indonesian editors don't engage with the wikipedia community: we're either inactive or frequently make edits without citing credible sources AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 14:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

The issues as I see them:

1. AnakPejuangIndonesia, the nominator and main (but not only) other participant, has a personal view on the accuracy of the translation of one of the common English names. This RM is largely based on this original research, rather than on the article title policy.

2. The article has had several names, and previous moves had little if any discussion.

I can't see a basis for another move in either of these issues, nor in the claim that other names are equally common. What we need is evidence that one of these names is more recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent than the others. Andrewa (talk) 21:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The onus should have been on the previous editor who unilaterally moved "Yogyakarta Kraton Guards" to "Royal Troops of Yogyakarta" without consulting the wikipedia community. The previous name change went through a discussion process, which although not exhaustive, received the attention of some regular Indonesian contributors. Anyone who understands Indonesian will realise that the Indonesian version of this article is better translated as "Yogyakarta Kraton Guards" than "Royal Troops of Yogyakarta". It's as simple as the difference between "Buckingham Palace Guards" and "UK Royal Troops". This regiment, while originating in the army of the sultan's historic army, is now only just palace guards, as reflected in their Indonesian name 01:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:39, 24 July 2018 edit Andrewa (talk \| contribs) Administrators 61,731 edits m →Discussion: fix my typo ← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:57, 25 July 2018 edit undo AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk \| contribs) 224 edits →Requested move 15 July 2018 Next edit →
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	I can't see a basis for another move in either of these issues, nor in the claim that other names are '''equally''' common. What we need is evidence that one of these names is more ''[[WP:AT\|recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent]]'' than the others. [[User:Andrewa\|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa\|talk]]) 21:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)		I can't see a basis for another move in either of these issues, nor in the claim that other names are '''equally''' common. What we need is evidence that one of these names is more ''[[WP:AT\|recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent]]'' than the others. [[User:Andrewa\|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa\|talk]]) 21:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
			:*The onus should have been on the previous editor who unilaterally moved "Yogyakarta Kraton Guards" to "Royal Troops of Yogyakarta" without consulting the wikipedia community. The previous name change went through a discussion process, which although not exhaustive, received the attention of some regular Indonesian contributors. Anyone who understands Indonesian will realise that the Indonesian version of this article is better translated as "Yogyakarta Kraton Guards" than "Royal Troops of Yogyakarta". It's as simple as the difference between "Buckingham Palace Guards" and "UK Royal Troops". This regiment, while originating in the army of the sultan's historic army, is now only just palace guards, as reflected in their Indonesian name 01:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)