Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Last paragraph

I think the last paragraph [Ed: in the lead] should be moved to the "Aftermath" section. The lead is definitely longer than four well-formed paragraphs. Also, as written, the lead seems to go out of its way to mention the word "Russia" as many times as possible, so it kindof reads like propaganda. There were a few other propagandist devices that I cleaned up recently, essentially using guilt-by-association: [1], [2]. I'm very concerned that it stayed in the articles for so long. Heptor (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I removed most of the excessive use of "Russia"[3], so it doesn't look too bad now in that sense. Still too long though. Heptor (talk) 11:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I now moved the paragraph to the "Aftermath" section as "discussed" above. We should be extra careful about giving descriptions like this undue weight, since it vaguely insinuates guilt. As per above, a Wikipedia article shouldn't read like propaganda for either side. Heptor (talk) 10:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment: These changes were surely "proposed", but not actually "discussed", as far I was able to find. (Personally I've noticed some changes made earlier, but haven't really noticed all what was going on in the article in the last few days.) As for the what's due and what's undue, it can work both ways: move of the Malaysian UNSC proposal (vetoed by Russia) from intro to "Aftermath": it seemed to me to be a pretty notable event in the context of the whole incident, so moving it into the section "Aftermath", without prior establishing general consensus, and under pretense of copy-editing, seems to me to be a rather large change. And attempts to remove allegedly "excessive" use of words "Russia/Russian" can also be seen in another way - Russian connection was usually pretty well supported by sources quoted (as I skimmed the changes), and it usually served to make more clear what forces were meant in the given context - so their removal can be also seen as an attempt to tone down the Russian involvement, which could be a case of wp:FALSEBALANCE. Not that I'm going to revert the changes, but I'd not going to oppose anyone who would like to review them in greater detail.-ז62 (talk) 20:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi ז62. Thank you for your comment. I wrote "discussed" in quotations marks somewhat ironically since I didn't get any responses to my post. I don't mind to re-open the topic, which of course deserves a thorough debate. That being said, I think the lead is reasonably balanced as it stands now: the Russian involvement is mentioned and thoroughly discussed, it's just that the word "Russia" isn't mentioned twice in every sentence as you can find in some Ukrainian sources, e.g. the public announcement by Yatsenyuk that is quoted in the article. Copy-editing is a valid supplementary argument, not a pretense: the lead was (still is) too long by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section. My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident. This is at best an oversimplification: the DPR allowed observers unrestricted access to the crash site and also collaborated with the investigation in other manners. So this paragraph, when standing by itself and given a lot of weight, seems to create a one-sided impression of the situation to a less than fully diligent reader, thus violating WP:NPOV. Heptor (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not about your opinion of balance, it's about whether the article's balance matches that of reliable sources. Stickee (talk) 10:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

"Russia" and "Russian" served to identify clearly what side/forces etc. were meant (for the same purpose as "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian" are used there), in a quite complicated structure of sentences, depicting quite convoluted sequence of events, with involvement of forces of Ukraine, Russia and "pro-Russian-though-officially-not-supported insurgents" - not to assign any sort of blame on Russia as you for some reason imagined, in an undoubtedly well intentioned, but not quite so well thought through attempt at the article improvement.

What I mean - one-sided removal of words "Russia"/"Russian" do not improve readability of the intro, and their retaining would do not compromise balance of the intro in any way, as they serve merely to clarify/clearly identify what side/forces were meant, as supported by references.

Your mention of Ukrainian sources does not seem to be related to the copyediting of the English Wikipedia at all. Can you please clarify why you mentioned them?

'My concern about the content is that that paragraph, when out of context, seems to insinuate that the Russian government may have blocked the investigation of the incident.

No, it clearly states that the Russian government vetoed the 2015 proposal to prosecute those deemed responsible. Your concerns about possible misinterpretation seem to be a bit overreaacting and what disturbs me is your barely hidden intent to protect Russian government against even such a far-fetched possibility you somehow imagined.

You should also perhaps re-consider if the word re-open [the topic] is really appropriate here, as so far it hasn't been closed, and it would be pointless to think othwerwise.--ז62 (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello ז62. I agree that this topic needs to be debated I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed. The MH17 shoot-down happened in a war zone; the organizations connected to the crash put a great effort to avoid blame and shift it to others. At the risk of assuming a POV not everyone will agree with, I think there is plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of ways to present it. This would include at least the following parties:

• The DPR separatists. One can frame their actions as wilful targeting of civilians, as negligent use of advanced weaponry, or as an accident despite reasonable efforts under difficult conditions.
• Russian government. They provided the weapon that was used; some will also dispute that DPR is a separate entity from the Russian government.
• Ukrainian government. They directed civilian airliners into a war zone when there was very little practical need to do it; this can be viewed as an error perhaps by some official in the air traffic control, or it can be as wilful and malicious attempt to protect the Ukrainian Air Force by mixing it with the civilian traffic.
• Malaysian airlines. They flew an airliner into a zone of (aerial) combat, when there was little practical need to do so.

If you may pardon the apparent grandiloquence of the following, I am of course concerned about protecting the Russian government from undue blame as much as I am concerned about protecting everyone else. Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened. This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge. Heptor (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Shame that the Russian government doesn't share your wish not to create a 'false impression' isn't it. Keep up the good work seeking not to expose the Russian government to undue blame, it seems hard to believe that Putin, Lavrov et al aren't being as honest as possible. Ha, ha. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)a short history of mh 17 on wikipedia and elsewhere [4]

@Heptor:

I did not mean to imply that the issue was closed

Then perhaps you should check a dictionary. It would also possibly help you with any legitimate copyediting work you'd attempt to undertake, on this article or elsewhere.

I would not comment at great length on all you wrote above (as it would be straying from the original issue - i.e. your excessive removal of the words "Russia/Russian" while claiming only copyediting concerns - to the events themselves), but my original point remains - you seem to be rather disturbingly concerned with protecting the Russian government ("and any other", except that you only removed mentions of "Russia/Russian" you didn't like/deemed "excessive").

Blame distribution is not always about manipulating the facts as it is also about manipulating attention, and a large amount of effort is spent (off-Wikipedia at least) into obscuring what happened.

Exactly my point - except that your excessive removals of words "Russia/Russian" can be easily interpreted in this, as these mostly served there to identify what side/forces were meant, not your imagined attempts to assign some undue blame. I would not say your edits were trying to obscure what happened, as I assume you meant quite well, but I can't see why you think they improved the article.

This means that we who edit Wikipedia need to make an effort to state the matters plainly and avoid insinuating guilt, and make sure that the article don't present a false impression even when read superficially by a visitor without specialist knowledge.

Well, for some reasons you're still avoiding some of the questions I've raised above. I mean, you can not seriously think that even the most superficially reading can mistake the 2015 UNSC resolution proposal for 2014 investigation - as you seem to believe? Please also read what Stickee wrote above. --ז62 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247

I assume your good faith, but I think you're not really helping here as much as you'd perhaps believe. (You should perhaps also consider registering.)-ז62 (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@62 - not trying to help at all, it was just like an exasperated comment. Is that o.k.? 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I certainly understand your position (and what could possibly lead it, given the whole history of attempts of the Russian government to distance itself from the event, at least verbally), yet not still completely appreciating overall effect of your contributions on the discussion here.-ז62 (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

What is your objection exactly? The word "Russia/Russian" is currently the fourth most frequently used word in the lead, right after the, that, and in (when "Russia" and "Russian" are counted together as one word). For comparison, "Ukraine/Ukrainian" is the eighth most frequent word (similarly counted), and the word "aircraft" comes in eleventh. So "Russia/Russian" is not exactly under-utilized, maybe still a bit on the heavy side. Heptor (talk) 21:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia was heavily involved. According to very RS. 78.147.39.247 (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as is duly mentioned. However, the Donetsk People's republic was at least as involved, and they are only mentioned once. This seems rather artificial. We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Heptor (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Ultimately it all depends on what the sources say, not what is - according to your subjective opinion - "balanced". "Donetsk People's Republic" is an entity mentioned (due to its rather uncertain/internationally not widely recognised status) only sparsely by reliable sources given in the intro, so it's completely OK to mention the name only when given by sources.

We could for example replace "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory".

This would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity. Please also read what I wrote on false balance, at least.-ז62 (talk) 22:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor: If you have any difficulties to find what my objection was, I'd recommend you to read what I wrote above. I surely do not object to use of words "Ukraine/Ukrainian" or "aircraft" (neither do I share your - so far unexplained - fears that the correct identification of sides/parties/forces would somehow lead to somewhat assign an "undue blame" on anyone - to the contrary, it could constitute a wp:FALSEBALANCE of kind. The problem here is not "excessive/not-excessive use of word Russia/Russian", the problem here is whether the forces/sides - as given by RS - are identified clearly in the text). Also you still haven't addressed the issue with the 2015 UNSCR proposal only you seem to believe to be prone to misidentification/misattributtion.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@78.147.39.247: Yes, that's what everyone knows, and only Heptor seem to be thinking that mentioning/or not mentioning these reliably sourced facts would somehow change the situation as a whole.-ז62 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little? Heptor (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties? When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"? Is the problem suddenly not the excessive/not-excessive use of "Russia/Russian"? Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties? Heptor (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia/Russian is mentioned 15 times. How is that too little?

You're the only one here thinking alone lines "X/Y" mentioned "too much/too little". Please read what I actually objected to, your fight against straw makes you lose last of your credibility.

Why are you writing that I object to correct identification of all parties?

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced facts, that the sources given just identified forces/sides as such.

When did I say that you were objecting to use of word "Ukraine/Ukrainan"?

You hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality".-ז62 (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Because since beginning you were consistenly arguing along lines of removing [allegedly] "excessive use of word Russia" without responding to objections based on the rather obvious referenced fact, that the sourcesgiven identified forces/sides as such.

Can you please point out to which of my recent edits you believe impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations? Heptor (talk) 22:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

[which of Heptor's recent edits] impeded the correct identification of the involved organizations

Have you meant your removals in the intro or your proposals/recent edits in the discussion? Because in the discussion you started here (removing "excessive" use of Russia) and , so far, finished there (suggesting to use "Donetsk People's Republic" as "correct"). You started with pretensions at copy-editing, yet your attempts are somewhat unbalanced, so as to say.--ז62 (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

:::::Do you object to any actual edits or edit suggestions that I have made? Heptor (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC) Retracted

I certainly did - please do carefully read my comments again, if you've failed to notice so far. It's quite unconvenient if you're somewhat unable to focus properly on what's discussed here. Also it's not entirely convincing when someone who attempts copyediting an article fails at basic reading comprehension. --ז62 (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You write a lot, not all of it relevant to the discussion. Great many accusations, discussion of irrelevant semantics, condescending offers of assistance. Just a point to the case, you wrote your comment above three minutes after I retracted the post it was responding to. Why? Heptor (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, chiefly because any earlier response was impossible, due to numerous edit conflicts, your "retraction" nothwistanding. (Not to mention that you actually still do not seem to be really understanding what my objections were aimed at.)--ז62 (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

You are hardly one who'd be able to judge it all neutrally, are you? I just repeatedly pointed that your attempts to "remove excessive use of words Russia/Russian", and other changes you made under (initial) pretensions at copyediting/improving neutrality, are not actually improving the readability of article and seem to be rather suspicious. I'm sorry you failed to address these points and instead moved onto further defence of the Russian government and its allies. (I'm not a copyeditor myself, but I'd certainly not dismiss any discussion on semantics as irrelevant).--ז62 (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So you object to my suggestion to replace the "pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory" in the second paragraph with "DPR-controlled territory". Anything else? Heptor (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Please do read rather carefully what I wrote here - my objections are more aimed against your persistent unreferenced attempts to push the terminology you personally prefer - for the sake of "neutrality" (as you subjectively see it) - instead of using correct descriptions as referenced by the sources given. I also quite of resent your attempts to dodge questions you've found inconvenient to deal with. --ז62 (talk) 23:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

When you write comments like you hadn't, as this is something I've only mentioned offhand to illustrate possible problems of your approach to what your consider "neutrality", I really don't know how to respond to that so I don't. Heptor (talk) 23:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I write comments as I do, and I believe it's clearly not my problem if you've failed to fully comprehend them. Certainly I can not understand why you've gained some of your incorrect impressions. If I had not assumed your good faith, it would perhaps can be seem as what is sometimes called "begging the question", on your part. --ז62 (talk) 23:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that "Donetsk People's Republic" is not a clear identification of one of the involved parties?

I certainly didn't - if identified as such by the sources given, then why not? My point, from the very beginning I got involved in this section, is that the sides/forces should be clearly and inambiguously identified - as given by the reliable neutral sources - not as you'd personally fancy it, and certainly not in accord with your rather openly stated agenda to "not mention Russia excessively".--ז62 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

ז62 I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively. Obviously there were attempts by the Russian government to manipulate the facts, and we should be careful to keep this out of the article. But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative. You wrote that "[Using the phrase 'DPR-controlled territory'] would give unsubstantianted undue weight to the existence of the DPR as an actually existing entity". I can't agree with that. Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources. It's a somewhat weird that the article tries to avoid mentioning them.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content. But those two are related. Forcing the English language to serve a prearranged narrative usually involves bending and twisting it into shapes it doesn't want to be in. In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing. Using synonymous expressions for "pro-Russian separatist-controlled" would be a stylistic improvement. It would increase the variety of the language, and in addition "DPR-controlled" is both shorter and more precise.

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead. The content argument is that the Russian veto is given too much weight, and the stylistic argument is that the lead is already too long as it is. Heptor (talk) 10:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The sources I've seen don't refer to any "Donetsk Peoples Republic". They refer to "pro-Russian separatists" [5] and "Russian-backed rebels" [6]. The Donetsk Peoples Republic is a geopolitical euphemism promulgated by the Kremlin, and to call them that in Wikipedia's voice is POV. If the term must be used, it should be prefaced with "self-proclaimed". Geogene (talk) 16:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

OK.. May I ask you to please see the following sources that refer "Donetsk Peoples Republic":

• Kuzio, Taras (2015). "Competing Nationalisms, Euromaidan, and the Russian-Ukrainian Conflict". Studies in Ethnicity and Nationalism. 15 (1): 157–169. doi:10.1111/sena.12137. ISSN 1473-8481.
• Pettersson, Therése; Wallensteen, Peter (2015). "Armed conflicts, 1946–2014". Journal of Peace Research. 52 (4): 536–550. doi:10.1177/0022343315595927. ISSN 0022-3433.
• Laruelle, Marlene (2015). "The three colors of Novorossiya, or the Russian nationalist mythmaking of the Ukrainian crisis". Post-Soviet Affairs. 32 (1): 55–74. doi:10.1080/1060586X.2015.1023004. ISSN 1060-586X.
• Stebelsky, Ihor (2018). "A tale of two regions: geopolitics, identities, narratives, and conflict in Kharkiv and the Donbas". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–23. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1428904. ISSN 1538-7216.

These are all journals with at least some academic merit, I did not even bother checking the mass media sources. Heptor (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources that cover MH17 don't. Therefore, this article shouldn't. Geogene (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I found the sources above with a Google Scholar search for "Donetsk People Republic". Some sources use "self-proclaimed", others don't. Those who don't seem to be in a small majority. A Google Scholar search for "Donetsk, War" since 2018, revealed similar results. Here is another source:

• Clem, Ralph S. (2018). "Clearing the Fog of War: public versus official sources and geopolitical storylines in the Russia-Ukraine conflict". Eurasian Geography and Economics: 1–21. doi:10.1080/15387216.2018.1424006. ISSN 1538-7216.

Heptor (talk) 23:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This source uses "self-described autnomous republic"[7]. Which I think makes much more sense than "self-proclaimed", since about every single independent nation on this planet proclaimed their own independence. It wasn't the King who wrote the declaration of independence, right? Heptor (talk) 00:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Although a few people use the term, it is both politically loaded and uncommon. Stebelsky's paper you listed above calls Toal (2017), Near Abroad: Putin, the West, and the Contest Over Ukraine and the Caucasus "an excellent account and interpretation of these events". Toal is searchable in Google Books, "Donetsk Peoples Republic" occurs in it twice, once on page 257 and once on page 265. And "pro-Russian separatists" is both more useful to a reader who is unfamiliar with the Donbass War, and frankly it's a more accurate description of reality. Geogene (talk) 00:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It's uncommon in that book perhaps, but Google returns about an equal number of results: Pro-Russian separatists, 296 000 results; "Donetsk People's republic" 223 000 results; "Luhansk People's republic" 50 200 results. I included "Lugansk People's Republic" since the term "Pro-Russian separatists" includes that entity, and possibly also other pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine and elsewhere. So, again, no good reason for Wikipedia to consistently use "Pro-Russian separatists" over the other terms. Heptor (talk) 08:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

I don't understand why you have such trouble with my -- yes, openly and plainly stated -- goal not to use the word "Russia/Russian" excessively.

Then you should perhaps read what I wrote earlier and perhaps attempt to address it, instead of continuing your WP:IDHT.

But neither should we base this article exclusively on the Ukrainian narrative.

Are you now attempting to claim that someone does?

Existence of DPR as an actual existing entity is well supported by reliable sources

That was certainly not my point, and I'd really prefer to not straying from copy-editing to a discussion about your opinions on the "existence of DPR as an actual entity" - that's something that should not be dealt with copyediting of the lede, at least as the term copyediting is usually understood.

You seem to be skeptical that I am mixing arguments based on writing style with arguments based on content.

You've finally noticed? Perhaps we're moving on... Please also read wp:ES - as you initially attempted to claim that you were just copy-editing.

In addition to the content issue, the excessive use of the the words "Russia/Russian" is meager writing.

a) You're the only who claim that their use was (for some unstated reason) "excessive".

b) What exactly you mean by "meager writing"? I do not speak Russian, so I have only a rather vague idea what you've meant. Can you clarify it, please?

The same applies to the UN draft resolution that you think should be in the lead.

More precisely speaking - so far you're the only one who think it should not be in the lead, while giving rather unconvincing arguments for your position .-ז62 (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

ז62 I'm sorry but a lot of what you write has little relevance for the discussion.

• Yes, I claim that the word "Russia" was in some cases used gratuitously in the previous versions of the article, and that the article could be further improved by replacing one instance of "Pro-Russian Insurgents" with "DPR".
• I did not claim that I was just copy-editing, but yes, most of my edits were also attempts at improving the presentation of the article.
• There are two issues with how the UN resolution was presented. 1) It was one-sided, only presenting the information that could be used to blame Russia. In case you didn't notice I already fixed it [8] by also presenting the resolution that Russia proposed in response, but 2) the lede is still too long.
• The diff you mentioned [9]. Yes, the words "Russia" and "Russian" served to identify clearly what side/forces etc. were meant, and in most cases they still do. Other words may also be used to identify some of the forces involved. Are you saying there are places where there is a confusion about the identity of the forces? Where?
• I'm glad that you are showing an interest to learn Russian. But which one of the two words in "meager writing" did you have trouble with? They're both in the (English) dictionary, although "meager" is a non-universal spelling. Heptor (talk) 23:04, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

I'm sorry but a lot of what you write has little relevance for the discussion.

Perhaps you should ask for some further explanation/translation someone who has less trouble to understand English than you have? I have kind of similar opinion on what you wrote, but it's chiefly because your attempts to stray from copyediting to your personal opinions supporting the "real existence of DPR" etc. I'm also sorry, if it could help you.

Yes, I claim that the word "Russia" was in some cases used gratuitously in the previous versions of the article, and that the article could be further improved by replacing one instance of "Pro-Russian Insurgents" with "DPR".

I do not dispute that you claim so, but I'm still objecting to your failure to give any rationale for doing so, and your rather transparent attempts to dodge the objections I gave above.

I did not claim that I was just copy-editing

You did, repeatedly haven't given any other explanation (when giving any edit summary at all, which was not always the case), and at least you hadn't actually stated your now openly professed pro-Russian intentions, so please do not make yourself even more ridiculous.

There are two issues with how the UN resolution was presented

They're? - Surely you claim there were, but you still haven't supported your claims by any source. Please note the difference.

Are you saying there are places where there is a confusion about the identity of the forces?

Please - try to finally read what I actually wrote, instead of such another your attempt to stray away from the discussion.

I'm glad that you are showing an interest to learn Russian.

I was? Where? That's perhaps one of the things which really bother me with your limited understanding of English.

But which one of the two words in "meager writing" did you have trouble with? They're both in the (English) dictionary, although "meager" is a non-universal spelling.

I have no problem with your spelling. If I had, I'd certainly told you so. (And I'm quite familiar with words "meager" and "writing", although you've perhaps somehow failed to notice.) I asked you - and very clearly - what you've actually meant by the expression "meager writing", so please do not attempt to stray from answering my question again. I mean - I'd somewhat expect that someone who's ambitious to be an copyeditor would not have so much trouble to understand rather basic English? -ז62 (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Heptor:

Why I've taken some trouble to ask you earlier was because "meager writing" - vague and rather incomprehensible as it's - was actually your first argument which bore - possibly - some actual relation to the problem of copyediting (instead of your rather openly admitted attempts "not to mention words Russia/Russian" excessively, because it would assign an undue blame"), so I was really interested in some further explanation on your part. If you chose to stay silent on the topic further, it's surely your choice.-ז62 (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Girkin's taking of responsibility

I've just re-read the VKontakte post by Igor Girking [10]. It is summarized in the article as "Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatist militia, [wrote a post in VKontakte where he was] claiming responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 military transporter near Torez.". I've read this post a few times before, but it suddenly dawned on me that he is not actually claiming responsibility for anything in that post. The wording he chose is does not specify who exactly shot down the plane, and sounds more like a general news announcement. Translated literally: "In the region of Torez, just now we/they shot down an An-26"; the pronoun is implied from the verb, so it can be interpreted as "they shot down an airplane" just as readily as "we shot down an airplane". I don't know what to do about it, could someone please verify my translation? Thanks, Heptor (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Congrats, you've just conducted some original research! Unforunately, Wikipedia explicitly prohibits original research with the core content policy "Wikipedia:No original research. We say whatever reliable secondary sources say. Secondary sources say they took responsibility. Stickee (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

What a pity that you forgot to translate the next sentence from Strelkov: We warned before - not to fly in "our sky"--Nicoljaus (talk) 08:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The next sentence has the same structure, it says "we/they warned [...]" Heptor (talk) 19:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Even if the second sentence said explicitly "we warned", it would not necessarily invalidate the possibility of a third party in the first sentence. If we are to use non-English language sources (which are never prohibited) we need accurate translations. If we can't rely on GoogleTranslate, I'm not sure how we ensure a guaranteed neutral translation. Is there no "officially agreed" translation of Strelkov, e.g. from Reuters? Or is Stickee saying that all translation is WP:OR? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Translations by us are WP:OR. We go by what reliable sources say. The CS Monitor says "Igor Girkin, a Ukrainian separatist leader also known as Strelkov, claimed responsibility on a popular Russian social-networking site for the downing of what he thought was a Ukrainian military transport plane" and used the translation "In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace.". WaPost [11] gives the same translation, as does the New Yorker [12], Newsweek [13], the ABC [14], Slate [15] and more. Stickee (talk) 11:23, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

That looks pretty clear to me, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 30 May 2018 (UTC) p.s. but more generally, how do we use nnb-English language sources at all if we don't have an independent translation also published by a WP:RS? There are hundreds of thousands of uses all over Wikipedia.

Respectfully, Stickee, please have another look the OR policy. It literally states that faithfully translating sourced material into English [...] is not considered original research. Heptor (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Аs a native speaker of the Russian language, I confirm the correctness of such a translation.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

At any rate, currently the only source provided in the lede is the link to the original post in Russian, so that's what I looked at at when I started this discussion. Links to WaPo should be added I guess. This is very weird. I'm re-reading the text again and again, can't understand how it could be interpreted as saying something about who shot the plane. "В районе Тореза только что сбили самолет Ан-26[...]" [16]Heptor (talk) 21:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Аs a native speaker of the Russian language, I argue that the translation is incorrect and it puts additional meanings in the message. 37.151.19.210 (talk) 08:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Is it possible these news organizations had some kind of context or knowledge that we don't have, something that would cause them to read it as "we"? It isn't original research for editors to provide a translation of a foreign source, but when the translation by wikipedia editors conflicts with the translation by secondary sources, I think policy requires us to follow the secondary sources. Still, this is troubling if you're correct. I wonder how such a mistake could happen... the only way I can imagine is if one newspaper translated incorrectly and all the others copied from them, but it seems crazy to think all these different newspapers would just take the translation from the Christian Science Monitor (who appear to have been the first to report on this) without even bothering to check the original. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 13:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Are there any Russian language sources that provide an unambiguous statement? I have no knowledge of Russian and so I don't know if this kind of grammatical ambiguity ca be avoided. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Considering that Girkin's people weren't out sightseeing, but in fact were at the crash site looking for surviving enemy airmen to capture, it's obvious that it was "we" that downed the aircraft, not "they". This is just wiki-lawyering on behalf of the rebels, against sourcing. Geogene (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

You may well be right. Perhaps the original Russian sources deliberately reported it in this way? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I looked around for Russian-language sources as Martinevans123 suggested. There is for example an article in life.ru, which states that the rebels reported that an An-26 was shot down.[17] It never mentions anything about who shot it down. The Russian-language version of this article states Girkin's post verbatim, it also never mentions anything about rebels claiming to have down an An-26. I also found a blog by a certain Lev Hodoi, who argues that the VKontakte post has been mistranslated. Quote from the blog: "Not a word about who shot it down. Not a word. Nothing!" ("Ни слова о том, кто его сбил. Ни слова. Вообще!). [18] I couldn't find any Russian-language sources that interpret this post otherwise, despite an extensive search so far.

Red Rock Canyon, this mistranslation is not very obvious despite its significance: I had to read it several times before I noticed that something was amiss. It's troubling indeed. Geogene, you seem to be willing to ignore a possible error in the article just because it fits your political views. Please make an effort to check your bias. Heptor (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Usually Russian sources just quote Girkin, his words do not require additional explanations. But some write directly:

17 июля 2014 года Стрелков на своей странице в Twitter похвастался тем, что в районе Тореза Донецкой области его бойцы сбили Ан-26. "Предупреждали же - не летать в "нашем небе", - написал Стрелков. "Птичка упала за террикон, жилой сектор не зацепила. Мирные люди не пострадали", - отметил он. Сообщение в соцсети появилось около 16:50 по киевскому времени, а приблизительно в 16:20 с экранов радаров исчез Boeing 777.

Translate:

July 17, 2014 Strelkov on his page on Twitter boasted that near Torez of the Donetsk region, his men shot down An-26. "We warned before - not to fly in "our sky," wrote Strelkov. "The bird fell over the waste tank, the residential sector did not catch. Peaceful people were not harmed" he said. The message in the social network appeared around 16:50 by Kyiv time, and approximately at 16:20 the Boeing 777 disappeared from the radar screens.

In fact, everything is pretty clear with this case.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:30, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Nicoljaus. I'm surprised that this Daily Telegraph source is not mentioned in the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Well - “We warned them - don’t fly in our sky.” - the translation is just the same. But I do not know how serious this case is - only 18 victims out of 298.--Nicoljaus (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Serious" or not, I think such a case is quite unusual. But that was three years ago. I'm not sure what has happened since, if anything. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

It's very strange. If Girkin wanted to take credit for shooting down a Ukrainian jet on behalf of the rebels, he could have been more explicit about it, something like "Our forces shot down an An-26". No reason for him to be subtle about it. But instead he left out the only pronoun until the very end of the post, and even then didn't mention the DPR explicitly. I don't think this vagueness accidental. If anything, it could be indicative of the Buk being operated by the Russians, and not by the rebels under Girkin's command. So I don't quite understand why I get labeled as a Russian spy over this, I am genuinely concerned that a poor translation may have caught on. Heptor (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why does anyone even think that this message was written by Strelkov personally? I checked, and this account exists until now, but now it is called "Summaries from the militia of Novorossia." And it description: "Daily reports on the combat situation from military correspondents, militia and eyewitnesses of events promptly and in one place." Then, at that time, the account was called "Summaries from Igor Ivanovich Strelkov" with the subtitle "Information from Igor Ivanovich, his comrades and militia." The messages on this wall have subtitles indicating the sources: "The message from Igor Ivanovich Strelkov," or "The message from the militiaman Prokhorov," or "The message from the militia headquarters," or simply "The message from the militia" - that is, from an unnamed supporter of the rebels. This infamous message just has the subtitle "Message from the militia." That is, it's just an eyewitness's report from the crash site, sent in the first minutes after the tragedy. A message with an emotional commentary based on the assumption that it can only be a Ukrainian transport aircraft and the second assumption that the regime troops do not shoot down their planes. The first assumption is obviously erroneous, the truth of the second one is a subject for discussion. 2.132.80.11 (talk) 20:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia did it, says the Infobox

Well, the article doesn't explicitly say that. It says the JIT concluded that. But the Infobox now explicitly says the Russians did it. I don't believe that's appropriate.

I know the anti-Russia gang here will again gang up and win this (it has already begun with one of the regular suspects), as they have ever since this incident happened, but I have now said my piece. HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I've tried better wording, which explains it better in regards to reliable sources. Can't be too wordy though, since it's the infobox. Stickee (talk) 11:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Infoboxes are disaster areas at the best of times. My preference is to omit any attempt at detail. That's what the article text is for. HiLo48 (talk) 11:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

JIT concluded that the missile was owned by a Russian army unit; so yes it was shot down by a Russian owned missile (which was the text you reverted). Whether Russian military actually pushed the button is not yet proven and was not stated. Your version (transported from Russia is way to weak) - it would be like stating that the 1945 atomic bomb on Hiroshima was caused by a nuclear bomb transported from the Mariana Islands). (talk)You can whine about us being anti-Russia but all your recent comments suggest that you are extremely non-neutrally pro-Russia. Arnoutf (talk) 13:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

All the time I was growing up we were told we should hate Russia because they were evil communists. They're not now, but apparently we still must hate them. My country has forts all around the coastline that were built in the 1800s, "to keep the Russians out". They never came, so I guess the forts worked. I sit back and think a lot about fear politics, and its impact. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The above includes a lot of speculations that venture beyond JIT's conclusions. We don't know who operated the SAM at the time of the shooting. If it was the local rebel forces, then one could justifiably describe it as a rebel-owned missile, supplied by Russia. The rebels probably also have less training, so they would be more likely to make the mistake that they made. At any rate, including this in the one-sentence summary in the infobox is a blatant over-simplification. I can see that many editors here want to point fingers to Russia. This is not justified, the airplane should not have been there. Heptor (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The USA (and other nations) sell weaponry all over the world. We don't usually blame the manufacturer when a weapon is pointed in the wrong direction by the purchaser. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The current wording, Airliner shootdown by Buk missile from Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade. is consistent with sourcing, and therefore policy. Geogene (talk) 04:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, it's not, because it is inevitably abbreviated to fit the Infobox, leaving out some details. If we could fit all necessary detail an an Infobox, we wouldn't need the text part of articles. HiLo48 (talk) 04:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

We could add that it was shot over an area of armed conflict at least. That's an essential piece of context. Heptor (talk) 07:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

If Russia had given or sold it to the rebels they should have provided evidence to JIT of that transaction. Since Russia did not provide that evidence, JIT can safely assume it was still missile from a Russian army unit (as the infobox now claims). Arnoutf (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

When Russia decided to share some hand-me-down Buks with their mercenary allies, they should have informed aviation authorities beforehand, so that NOTAMs could be issued over Eastern Ukraine all the way up to 30,000 ft. There is no justification to sugarcoat Russia's responsibility in the article, because sources are focusing on Russia's responsibility. The why were there still civilian targets in Russia's illegal new missile range is a fringe argument. Geogene (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

It's a moot point Geogene. Two planes were shot down over Eastern Ukraine while flying well above the range of man-portable SAMs before the MH17 disaster. So the Ukrainian authorities knew very well that such weapons were deployed. Heptor (talk) 21:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Russia rejects any charges brought by the commission involving Ukraine, and which are not based on any real evidence. The so-called messages from Ukrainian social networks are another rubbish made by the SBU. Photos do not have a binding to the place and time. Finally, the number of the Buk rocket belongs to the series, which was produced in 1986. In Russia, all missiles 1986 release were to be liquidated no later than 2011. 2.132.80.11 (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox summary

The current summary is: "Airliner shootdown by Buk missile from Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade."

This seems a bit confusing because it implies the Russian brigade fired the missile, while most of the article seems to indicate the missile was supplied by Russia but fired by pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists. Is there a better wording for this? 2601:644:1:B7CB:4C40:316C:B9AD:938A (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I've chenged to: "Airliner shootdown by a missile fired from the Buk system provided by Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade"--Nicoljaus (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that is an improvement. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks!--Nicoljaus (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

'Investigators had asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but had been ignored, said Westerbeke. If specific Russian military personnel or commanders are indicted, Russia is almost certain to refuse their extradition.' 78.147.67.138 (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ukraine's responsibility

The final report of the Dutch Safety Boards is quite direct in stating that Ukrainian authorities bear much of the responsibility for the loss of MH17, mainly because they knew that high-altitude anti-aircraft weapons were deployed, and should have closed their airspace earlier. Link to the report: https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf?s=678D995FE7E3080B6256880A456CED959FE4ECBC

Here is a few quotes from the report:

• p. 209: "When implementing the above measures, the Ukrainian authorities took insufficient notice of the possibility of a civil aeroplane at cruising altitude being fired upon. This was also the case, when, according to the Ukrainian authorities, the shooting- down of an Antonov An-26 on 14 July 2014 and that of a Sukhoi Su-25 on 16 July 2014 occurred while these aeroplanes were flying at altitudes beyond the effective range of MANPADS"
• p. 207: "the Dutch Safety Board considers this risk assessment to be incomplete because it does take threats to military aircraft into account, but does not account for the consequences to civil aviation of potential errors or slips."
• p 199: "In order to give an indication of the financial consequences of the closure of the Dnipropetrovsk FIR after 17 July 2014, the Dutch Safety Board estimated the revenues per day using EUROCONTROL’s statement of the number of international flights that had flown through the Dnipropetrovsk FIR between May and July 2014. To do so, the Dutch Safety Board counted the number of flights per aircraft type on two random days, 1 April and 15 June 2014, and then calculated the route charges. The estimated charges amounted to approximately € 176,000 on 1 April 2014 and approximately € 248,000 on 15 June 2014."

I tried to expand the article to reflect this,[19] but I got promptly reverted,[20][21] and, for good measure, I also got templated on my talk page.[22] I don't see any good-faith arguments not to include this in the article, but Ahunt, Volunteer Marek please feel free to state your case. Heptor (talk) 20:54, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why do you have a conflict of interest here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't have a conflict of interest. I don't receive, and I have never received any form of compensation for editing Wikipedia. I tried to tell it to Ahunt, but he simply deleted my message from his talk page[23]. So there is that too. 21:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

A conflict of interest can involve more than just paid editing, it can also involve a history of biased editing in support of a cause, that shows that the editor has a connection to the subject. You don't have to be paid to edit Wikipedia, to be in a conflict of interest. In this case your editing history speaks for itself. - Ahunt (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ahunt, please consider that disagreeing with your views is not, ipso facto, a conflict of interest. Heptor (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

If you check my editing history on this article you will see that I have no POV that I am pushing here, whereas your history shows that you clearly do. Trying to obscure your COI here by couching it as a content dispute is disingenuous and doesn't hold water. You have now been called out by several editors for POV-pushing and COI. - Ahunt (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Ahunt, having a disagreement with another editor is not a conflict of interest. It sounds like you think you WP:OWN the article but this is contrary to Wikipedia's rules, no one person gets to decide that their views are the truth and someone else's are POV. Instead of resorting to accusations and personal attacks, please assume good faith and try to focus on how we can improve the content of the article per Wikipedia's policies. That's why we have the talk page! :) 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic (but MI6 monitored) section
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Come on now, admit it. Have you ever been to Salisbury? Know anything about door-knobs? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Enlighten me about Salisbury :) Heptor (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Ah, shucks. Obviously you haven't. Just forget I ever mentioned knobs. Sorry to disturb you. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Aaaah, clever[24]. But Martinevans123, why would you assume that a Russian spy would do something about the anti-Russian bias on WP? Putin has other means to inform his own peons, and he is probably quite happy if his people perceive that the West is against them. Heptor (talk) 22:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Ah, so you admit you know Vladimir! We're just all relieved you didn't cover yourself in pigs' blood and pretend to get yourself murdered. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC) You should be more concerned that I might take the easy way out of this discussion. It's surprisingly popular [25], [26]everyone is doing it. Heptor (talk) 22:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Thanks for those very interesting links, especially that last from European Psychiatry. Perhaps a new article, is called for. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC) We do have Suicide in Ukraine. But it needs to be updated, it currently states that Ukraine is ranked 13th in the World. Heptor (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

On topic: Your quotes do indeed show that Ukraine shared some of the responsibility by not closing their airspace, and while mentioned (just look for the word airspace in the article) I would agree to slightly stronger wording on that topic. However, these quotes do not support your interpretation "much of the responsibility", so don't overdo. Arnoutf (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the revision history, it was actually Arnoutf and I who wrote the text in that section in the first place [27] [28]. I made sure that the text accurately reflected the DSB report and the responsibility it lay on Malaysia Airlines and Ukraine for the airspace selection. I think it's fairly accurate and in-depth enough as-is. Furthermore, it's a bit out of context. For example, the report elaborates, "such states rarely close their airspace or provide aeronautical information with specific information or warnings about the conflict.", acknowledging that you can't rely on a country closing it's airspace. For that reason, they later recommended that the ICAO "amend relevant Standards so that risk assessments [conducted by airlines] shall also cover threats to civil aviation in the airspace at cruising level" (pg 265). I already inserted a summary of that recommendation in the section back in 2015. Stickee (talk) 07:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The present version of the article severely understates how far the DSB went in criticizing the Ukrainian management of their airspace. The DSB report includes statements like "In the international system of responsibilities, the sovereign state bears sole responsibility for the safety of the airspace" (p. 262). DSB goes far in suggesting that the Ukrainian authorities neglected safety for the sake of maintaining the cash flow, ref their thorough analysis of the cash flow in Section 6.4.2. As to Stickee's comment about the context – the report states that in the other conflicts that were examined there were no clear indications of medium or long-range surface-to-air missiles being present. It is almost rhetorical to state that the Ukrainian authorities knew that Russia possesses medium and long-range surface-to-air missiles, and that they knew that these weapons were deployed against their air force. The risk of operating civilian traffic in areas where such weapons are operational is nothing if not obvious. It was a very chilling act of negligence, which is clearly reflected in the report. I don't understand how you can look at this through your fingers.

I believe that the report could be represented in the article more faithfully. I'll start by including some of the conclusions, if you have specific criticisms to the material I add please state it here. Thanks, Heptor (talk) 18:02, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, I finally got around to updating the article. I understand that some people here disagree with this, but the update seems to be solidly supported by the contents of the report. Another update, the article was focusing on the fact that many airlines were still flying over the Eastern Ukraine, and didn't mention that many were also avoiding it. I added this, with reference to an article in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17. Heptor (talk) 20:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe that was a faithful summary of the DSB report. For starters, your edit here replaced a direct quote from the final report, from a sentence from some Guardian article. It's amazing how you listed the airlines that weren't flying in the area (which wasn't in the report!), but failed to listed the airlines that were, completely ignore what the DSB said. It's quite telling. Stickee (talk) 12:48, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

About your starters, it's a well-know fact that several airlines avoided the Eastern Ukrainian airspace, it's not just "some Guardian article" as you stated it. There is no reason for this information not to be in the article. Again, DSB clearly states that Ukraine was responsible for the safety of its airspace for as long as it chose to keep it open. This is completely ignored in the article. Heptor (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I actually didn't notice that you didn't revert the info I added about the airlines that were avoiding the eastern Ukrainian airspace. Great, we are making progress. Heptor (talk) 19:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I've restored the prev. text, giving edit reasons. Reading this section, it seems pure WP:OR to go from recommendations as to how airlines/Ukraine could have been/should in future be more prudent, to placing responsibility on either for the outcome. Not only OR, but rather offensive OR. A recommendation to improve procedures for avoiding areas of conflict/reporting risks does not equate to making either MA or Ukraine responsible. Pincrete (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Several false conspiracy theories...

Hi, I have removed the following sentence from the lead:

Several false conspiracy theories about the crash have since appeared in Russian media, including that the aircraft was being followed by a Ukrainian military jet.

Calling these "false conspiracy theories" is just editorializing, it's enough to state that these are "alternate theories" and clearly attribute them to a source to make it clear these claims are not endorsed by Wikipedia. However, I fail to see why this needs to be in the lead in the first place. The surrounding sentences make it clear that Russia denied responsibility, so I'm not sure why Russian media treatment of the incident was significant. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Calling conspiracy theories with no connection to reality "alternate theories" goes against WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Neither source states these theories are "conspiracy theories" or false. In fact, at the time these claims were put forward the now-accepted version of events was not established. The Washington Post source mentions a claim by Russian military about the aircraft being in the vicinity of a Ukrainian military jet. The New York only only uses "conspiracy theory" in scare quotes in a headline. The actual article states as follows:

Russia laid out two detailed theories on what took down MH17. Unsurprisingly, they both contradict Western accusations that separatists accidentally took down a civilian jet with a Russia-supplied weapon. Instead, Russian air force chief Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev suggested that the plane was shot out of the sky by the Ukrainians, using either missile systems or a fighter plane.

So this clearly violates WP:SYN in my opinion. Furthermore, it's not necessary to editorialize like this, it's sufficient to let the facts speak for themselves: Russian military said X, the JIT said Y, citing evidence Z.

I think maybe the difficulty arises from the fact that there are two pieces to this sentence. First, there is an implied claim that "Russian media published 'false conspiracy theories' which other sources disagree with." Second, there is the claim itself. I have edited to keep the latter part, which is well-supported by the sources, while removing the first part as pointless editorializing. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 16:53, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I see my changes keep getting reverted by the POV owners of the article, sad. Anyway, for posterity, here's my proposed version (combining this claim with the previous sentence):

The Russian defense ministry stated that it had never deployed anti-aircraft missile systems in Ukraine, and suggested the aircraft may have been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet or missile system.

Maybe we can reach a consensus here in talk, then fix the article.2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you need to remove the internal link. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It's in the TOC. Is the purpose of the sentence just to shoehorn in an editorial comment about Russian media bias? 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, all section headings are in the TOC. The link just helps the reader. I disagree, it's not there "just to shoehorn in an editorial comment". The wording could be adjusted. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Then what is it there for? 2601:644:1:B7CB:19B8:4095:CF3:361A (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Please don't call other editors "you morons" as you did here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, that was uncivil. I find it slightly amusing that the owners of the article are so eager to push their POV they don't even pay attention to the content of the minor edits and just revert everything to the established version. But I digress. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've made a grand total of three edits to this article, my reversion of your edit being the third. Yeah, clearly I'm just guilty of WP:OWN and you're not just failing to assume good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Please don't accuse other editors as "owners of the article". The article has been achieved through collaborative consensus-building. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC):

Re "The article has been achieved through collaborative consensus-building", well this was unfortunately a statement of grandeur with limited basis in reality. Not much consensus was involved in the building of the article, not lately at least. Although I can't support 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E's view either. It's quite obvious that many of the theories that were put forward in the Russian media were a bunch of patent nonsense, and they should be clearly labeled as such on Wikipedia. Heptor (talk) 18:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

That's very dismissive and is also quite uncharitable to the very many editors who have helped to write this article over the past four years. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I do apologize if it came off like that. Wasn't much consensus here lately though. Heptor (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The word "conspiracy" isn't necessary though. The false theories that were put forward were not all "conspiracy theories". Could "bogus" be the right adjective to properly deride them in the lead? Heptor (talk) 18:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree "bogus" might be better. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Why not just report the claims as claims like reliable sources are doing? Why do we need to qualify? Seems like providing clear attribution is enough to distance us from the source. By analogy, in an article about a convicted murderer there might be a sentence like "X denied the charges and suggested that Y had shot himself accidentally." Given that X was convicted, this claim is presumably false, but it's not necessary to say "X falsely denied the charges and suggested a conspiracy theory that Y had shot himself accidentally." 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I apologize if I am late to the party, but which RS's are we talking about? Are those theories commonly referred to as "false/bogus [conspiracy]" theories, areor are they usually stated verbatim? Heptor (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

See my preceding comments and the reflist below. The two cited sources both simply state that Russian officials have put forth these claims, and then discuss why the claims are unlikely to be true. One article uses the term "conspiracy theory" in scare quotes in a headline, the other does not use the term at all. 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources call these conspiracy theories [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38]. So should the article. Geogene (talk) 18:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, that does seem very clear. Clearer than I had imagined. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

These two media articles also bear on this overall discussion: Popular Science and The Economist. - Ahunt (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It seems so. But 2601:644:1:B7CB:497D:AEB6:D07F:431E is correct in that this description is not supported by the sources that are presently in the article. Heptor (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Great, I've updated the article with some of those refs. The New York Magazine ref was already there. Stickee (talk) 22:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Heptor (talk) 23:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

...then why did you re-revert and delete the phrase? Several other high profile Wikipedia articles use that term, including Sean Hannity, George Soros, Prisons of the Reign of Terror, Lou Dobbs, Lucian Wintrich, The Washington Times, National Review, Jack Kingston, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories and more. Stickee (talk) 23:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I tried to discuss this a few posts above. Many of these theories are not conspiracy theories in the sense that they don't involve any conspiracy. They may be accurately described as false, bogus or spurious however. Heptor (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Common parlance has evolved, and they rarely do involve actual conspiracies. Bottom line is, we describe things how the reliable sources are describing them. We're required by the core content policies to do so. Stickee (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The source you added only calls them "conspiracy theories" in the headline. Otherwise these theories are called "red herrings, conspiracy theories and alternative scenarios". The word "spurious" I think provides a good summary. Heptor (talk) 23:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Then what about "spurious conspiracy theories"? It keeps the c-word used by all the sources. Stickee (talk) 00:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Excuse me, but some participants in the discussion call conspiracy theories anything that does not correspond to the official version of the investigation, do not they? And Ukraine is a member of this commission of inquiry. So why does someone think that the Ukrainian side will give evidence against itself?

The word "conspiracy" is used for drama, it does not carry additional meaning. Heptor (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

"Evidence" of the official version in the case of the crash of MH17 are divided into three types. The first are the statements of US officials that they allegedly have some satellite images proving the guilt of the pro-Russian rebels. The commission of inquiry, however, does not have these pictures. The second are data from Ukrainian social networks and radio intercepts of rebel talks provided by the SBU. Unfortunately, the SBU is notorious for its tendency to create rough fakes. The images they provide are not tied to the place and time and Ukrainian social networks are full of photographs of Russian soldiers that were made in Russia sometimes a few years before the events in the Donbass and declared as evidence of "Russian invasion." The third are the so-called "Bellingscat" analysis. They have two fundamental drawbacks: they are basically amateurish and their authors drive their reasoning to pre-prepared conclusions. As for the investigation of the wreckage of the airliner and the bodies of the deceased, they, in fact, were not conducted. Suffice it to say that the Dutch representatives did not even consider it necessary to collect all the debris.145.255.171.209 (talk) 17:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

These are potentially valid concerns, but they need to be supported by sources to be considered. 145.255.171.209, can you provide independent or official sources that support your analysis? In general, if there are independent sources we may need to change the statement in Wikipedia's voice, and if there are official Russian sources we need to faithfully present their objections. Heptor (talk) 11:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed we need reliable mainstream secondary sources here; before we can add something like that. Arnoutf (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

References

OK. A quick search in Google led to this Ukrainian nationalist site (obviously not the RS) and this video in YouTube. According to the announcement, this Ukrainian military column met an eyewitness in the area of the town of Soledar in the north of the Donetsk region in early March 2014, a few months before the start of hostilities (note the date of uploading the video). At 37 seconds, you can see a rocket launcher "Buk" with a number 312. The rocket launcher with this airborne number appears in Ukrainian social networks as "arrived from the Kursk anti-aircraft missile brigade." And there is this official video of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. In this broadcast, published a day before the tragedy with MH17, you can see (at 4:48) deployed in the Donbass Ukrainian air defense systems with... yes, "Buk". But, obviously, the investigative commission with the participation of Ukraine decided that the Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles, which there were reliably, are not so interesting to look for, how to invent anabasis of the Russian one. 37.151.19.210 (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Adding more unreliable sources (as you do above) is not helping in any way. We already know there is a lot of disinformation on the topic and that is why we should work from content from reliable mainstream secondary sources. Arnoutf (talk) 09:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

about this article, let me say this. I read the talk page since the beginnings and while i would be inclined to believe to the 'ufficial version' about the shooting down of the 777, some things seems clear to me. One of them, it's the blatalantly attitude of some editors to put always in the 'unreliable' source anything was not responded to the US agenda, i.e. russian press, as example. Some editors seemed to be highly biased and devoted months to rebut anything was not in the line with US attidute toward Russia and the 'ucranian crisis' (actually a coup plus a democide war against russophones in the east, but ehy, we cannot 'draw conclusion on this issue because wikipedia is not a tribunal' and Odessa massacre was a 'skirmish'). Incidentally, it's likely that Russia was really involved with the MH17 downing, but, BUT... the attitude of western politicians against Russia and russophones was clear since the beginning, and english wikipedia followed the 'reliable sources' who based their articles on US agenda (just remember Udo Ulfkotte to understand 'how' the western press is reliable). This is really not well suited for the 'neutral' wikipedia: sort the RS (alway western) by unreliable sources (Russian) just like wikipedia did in other famous political crisis (see Irak). But this is what reckelessy wikipedia 'truth holders' did since july 2014, well before any reliable evidence about the responsability of MH17 downing. Another point quite clear, is, that the whole story was heavily in advantage of ucrainian 'democratic' Poroshenko. They displaced the previous government with a shameless coup, then started the war against russians, and this with the active support of USA (see McKain and Nuland in Kiev). Despite the criminal attitude of the new ucrainian president (use of heavy artillery over cities, as example), thousands dead and brutal attitude toward russophones, the western press/politics and well shadowed, by wikipedia (atleast english), has got a good game aginst Putin, just like they did in 2008 with Georgia-Russia war (for months Georgian screamed that they were 'attacked' by russians), attacking Russia while shielding the crimes perpretated by Kiev, and even showing an absolute ridicule condemning the Crimea annession (forgetting how 'democratic' was the Montenegro indipendence, but hey, they were our friends!) So really, this article, realistic or not, was biased since the beginning by attitudes that cannot be accepted in a 'neutral' encyclopedia. In the meanwhile, Poroshkenko swift used politically the new 'unbiased' report made by his friends in Europe, to attack Russia: Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko promised in a Facebook post (in Ukrainian) that he would "spare no effort to ensure that the actions of the Russian Federation as a state which supports terrorism get an appropriate assessment" that is the precise problem identified by many wiki users since 2014, even if trated as 'fakes' 'russian sockpuppets' and 'fringe theoryst' by the 'knowledgeable' US/english users. Really a shame. --62.11.0.22 (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28357880