Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oleg Viktorovich Maltsev

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It seems that this article does not have reliable sources. Professor Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR sources seem to be affiliated, as Massimo Introvigne and Oleg Maltsev are partners.--Russians Don`t give up (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

The article should obviously be kept. If there are other sources about criticism against O.V. Maltsev they should be quoted, but there is no doubt that he is known internationally and his work has been discussed in respected academic and non-academic publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 萧剑 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

This seems ridiculous to me. Professor Massimo Introvigne is one of the most well-known scholars in the field of religious studies and there is no evidence whatsoever that he and Oleg Maltsev are “partners.” A simple look at the “Journal of CESNUR” [1] would show that it has published articles on a wide variety of subjects, by luminaries in the field such as J. Gordon Melton and University of Bordeaux’ Bernadette Rigal-Cellard. Articles quoted from the “Journal of CESNUR” are by other authors too, including PierLuigi Zoccatelli, who is professor of Sociology of Religions at the Catholic University of Turin, Pontifical Salesian University [2] and psychologist Raffaella Di Marzio, who is the author of several books and articles. Are they all “partners” of Oleg Maltsev? The article also relies on an entry on the Applied Sciences Association, the organization founded by Maltsev, in the online encyclopedia World Religions and Spirituality Project [3]. The article is by the same Massimo Introvigne, but the World Religions and Spirituality Project is a peer-reviewed publication at Virginia Commonwealth University and certainly does not select its topics lightly. “Russians don’t give up” seem to represent the position by some Russian milieus regarding Maltsev as the leader of a “cult.” This position is obviously part of what makes Maltsev newsworthy (and studied by scholars internationally) and is mentioned and discussed in the article. User: AidaYoung

How would you comment on these: 1 source, 2 source. They are also friends on Facebook. And why is it that Professor Introvigne visits Odessa at the invitation of Oleg Maltsev? We also see that Massimo Introvigne lectures people that have relation to Oleg Maltsev and his organization. Here Maltsev calls him a friend. And please don’t blame me, I am simply a Wikipedia user just the way you are.-Russians Don`t give up (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Deleting would be a mistake. The page is balanced and includes criticism. Massimo Introvigne is a famous scholar of religion but there are other sources too. I recommend to keep the page. --Le luxembourgeois —Preceding undated comment added 17:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

I do not think that other sources are sufficient to indicate the Notability. I think this is a promotional article, probably created for a price.-Russians Don`t give up (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

I vote against the deletion. There are multiple scholarly sources in this article, and all are academic publications (apart from the National Geographic, which is not academic but a well-known publication as well). The sources, taken together, evidence that Maltsev is internationally studied, discussed (and criticized) in his field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emma1990227 (talk • contribs) 06:25, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

With all due respect, as the person who created the entry, I found this discussion increasingly bizarre. Simply Googling “Massimo Introvigne” would show that he has lectured, has been interviewed by, and is friend on Facebook (where he has thousands of friends) with Catholic cardinals, Protestant bishops, Buddhist monks, and founders of a dozen religious movements. This is common for sociologists of religions, whose method of work is to visit groups and interview people, as it is normal for famous scholars to be invited by different people in different countries to lecture. With Russians Don’t give up’s criteria, no article ever written by a sociologist of religion should be a reliable source for Wikipedia. It also seems that Russians Don’t give up is not familiar with how peer-reviewed scholarly publications, such as the encyclopedia World Religions and Spirituality Project and The Journal of CESNUR and other academic journals work. Even assuming that Massimo Introvigne had biases in favor of Maltsev, he should still have passed the peer review of other academics, which is much more strict and fastidious than those outside the academia may believe. Again, the article certainly relies on works by Masimo Introvigne (undoubtedly, a leading world specialist when it comes to cults), but also on international media and works by other scholars. I am just a graduate student but have made since I was in high school quite a few editing in Wikipedia and find both preposterous and offensive to be accused of creating “promotional articles for a price.” I believe that reading the article would speak for itself. On the other hand, I do not find any editing done by Russians Don’t give up. User:Aidayoung

Based on my experience and research, and as confirmed by other editors above, Massimo Introvigne is a reliable scholar who produces literature that is well-respected by the community. I have seen his work being used in many other pages, and to delete this page just on the basis of one individual questioning his notability would not be just. He has written various articles that evoke intelligent and sound commentary on various subjects.Nonchalant77 (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

It seems to me that this discussion is deviating from its original purpose. Here, we discuss whether a page on Oleg Viktorovich Maltsev should be kept. We are not discussing whether Massimo Introvigne is a good scholar or a bad scholar or is biased in favor of Maltsev. I don’t believe he is, as his articles on Maltsev also document the criticism he has received and are otherwise well written in a typically academic style, but this is, after all, immaterial. Since there is no doubt that Introvigne is a famous scholar, and that he writes for prestigious presses and journals, once he has written something about Maltsev, this something becomes part of the scientific knowledge about Maltsev and is therefore a quotable source. Criticism of Introvigne is surely legitimate but has very few to do with the question whether Maltsev (not Introvigne) is well-known internationally. That Maltsev is the subject of scholarly studies is a fact - the motivations of those who wrote these studies and their quality have presumably been checked in the peer review processes, but calling them into question now does not make Maltsev less well-known. This applies to Introvigne and to the other scholars who have written about Maltsev, and to the journals that published their articles. A very suspicious fellow may argue that all of them are “friends” of Maltsev (although in this case why they also report on criticism of him is unclear). My point is that these conspiracy theories are not the point. Whatever the motivations for scholars and journalists to write about Maltsev, or everybody else, once their articles are published, and the more so if they are published in peer-reviewed journals and Web sites, they become part of the sources generally available to the scholarly community and the public opinion, and in this case they are enough to establish the relevance of the article. Aidayoung (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:49, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Why other scientists don't write about Oleg Maltsev? Basically the whole article is based on the information which comes from Massimo Introvigne. It seems to me that users: Aidayoung, Le luxembourgeois and Nonchalant77 are related to each other, they have never participated in the discussions about deletion of other pages, but they gathered here having a minimal contribution to the Wikipedia. Probably these accounts should be checked by Checkusers --Russians Don`t give up (talk) 10:54, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Again, I am at loss to understand what exactly he is talking about. I have contributed to Wikipedia for many years and created a good number of pages, primarily in my specialized field, East Asian Religions and culture, but also in other fields related to religion. Nonetheless, the comment is interesting. Claiming that I “have a minimal contribution to Wikipedia” shows that this guy or lady is not really familiar with Wikipedia and joined for different purposes than honestly contributing to it. I have also no idea who the other users who participated in the discussion are. Checkusers by administrators are welcome. Again, it is not true that the article is based on one source only, and again the critic does not seem to understand how peer review works in academic sources Aidayoung (talk) 8:44, 25 August 2018, EST "Russians Don't give up" seems to be exercising a frail attempt to discredit those who desire to keep this page and painting an image of collusion when there is none. A checkuser may be done to discredit this accusation. The argument is simply strong on the notability of Maltsev, and there are enough references to support this fact. A case in point is Mysticism, the Esoteric Paradigm and Oleg Maltsev by PierLuigi Zocatelli, who described in detail Maltsev's contribution to scholarship about the esoteric tradition. It seems to me that "Russians don't give up" is the one with the agenda to delete this page, stopping at nothing and making empty statements in order to achieve his goal.Nonchalant77 (talk) 21:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Let's stop discussing me and discuss the compliance of the article with the rules. If you remove Introvigne sources, then there will almost no article. I will check in what are other articles with professor's sources-Russians Don`t give up (talk) 22:46, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Delete. The main source is affiliated. It looks like Aidayoung uses sockpuppets.--Marsellus W (talk) 00:02, 28 August 2018

What main source? There are 37 quotes in the article, and 11 are from Massimo Introvigne, an eminent scholar who is not "affiliated" with Maltsev in any sense of the world. The others, i.e. the majority, are from respected sources other than Introvigne. It seems to me that a couple of Russian users believe that, when an author is controversial, the page should be deleted. In fact, controversies should be taken into account (as I believe I did) but a controversial author does not become less noteworthy because he or she is controversialAidayoung (talk) 02:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC) PS I am deadly against using sockpuppets. Aidayoung (talk) 02:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC) Update: The sockpuppet investigation has obviously been closed quickly [4]. Aidayoung (talk) 01:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)