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September 3

Fission of U-236

My inorganic chemistry textbook has a section on the origin of the elements where it goes over some nuclear physics in brief. My question relates to this excerpt. Actually I have two questions. Firstly, is the equation given for the spontaneous fission of U-236 correct? The mass doesn't seem to balance. I think the correct equation should be:

²³⁶
₉₂U
→ ¹⁴⁰
₅₄Xe
+ ⁹³
₃₈Sr
+ 3
n

Secondly, in their determination of the energy released, shouldn't we take into account the binding energy of the free neutron(s)? I'm not exactly sure how to take into account that binding energy, but I would imagine that a significant amount of energy would be needed to unbind neutrons from the nucleus. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

An arrow does not imply a balanced equation, only = sign does. As to the binding energy it is zero for free nucleons including neutrons, so it is correctly ignored. Ruslik_Zero 13:02, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

An arrow does not imply a balanced equation. Really? Per Nuclear reaction:

Nuclear reactions may be shown in a form similar to chemical equations, for which invariant mass must balance for each side of the equation, and in which transformations of particles must follow certain conservation laws, such as conservation of charge and baryon number (total atomic mass number).

So I think you are right that there really should have been a "3" there. But as Ruslik says, free nucleons have zero binding energy by definition of that concept, so it didn't matter here. --ToE 16:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I suppose that, in fairness, an unbalanced equation is not wrong. It's just not balanced. And since we didn't need to balance it to get the correct answer, for this purpose, balancing was not required. That said, an equality sign would be wrong, because it would imply reversibility. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 01:23, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

This problem seems a bit contrived since, as far as I can tell, U-236 never undergoes spontaneous fission, but if left to its own devices, will only undergo an alpha decay (t_1⁄2=23.42x10⁶y).

According to the French Wikipedia, U-236 does undergo spontaneous fission. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 01:11, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

In The Nuclear Fission Process, data on the spontaneous fission of U-236 (among other radioactive isotopes) is given on page 37. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 01:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Our isotopes of uranium gives spontaneous fission of U-236 as a known decay mode of 9.6×10⁻⁸% occurance. DMacks (talk) 02:10, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Non-CYP2D6 pain killers

Please may you name some pain killers that hospitals routinely prescribe to patients that do not rely on the CYP2D6 pathway. For example when the patient is a poor CYP2D6 metabolizer whos body cannot convert codeine to morphine. Thanks for your time and help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.141.178 (talk) 14:56, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

There is at least one, but (per disclaimer on top of page) ... "ask your doctor or a medical professional". 2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 20:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

You answered your own question; morphine. Abductive (reasoning) 03:09, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Characteristics of common wasps and bees (II)

Regarding my corresponding inquiry, I would like to once more ask for some more comments on the matter. Especially, I am still certain that common wasps and yellow jackets are indeed attracted by artificial light (e. g. cf. this information by the Oxford City Council) – very much as the table states for hornets.--Neufund (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

The article's talk page is probably the best place to discuss this; or edit the table yourself (?). Here is a source for paper wasps being attracted to light:[1]. 2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I took the liberty of editing the table (inelegantly, perhaps) for paper wasps/light. 2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 21:46, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

What do these words mean in dentistry?

Any dentists around? Could someone please define the terms provisionalize (noun: provisionalization) and temporize (temporization)? I think they might be synonyms and I suppose they have something to do with temporary/short-term dental work. Equinox ◑ 21:41, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

According to a dental surgeon, which is inline with Google results, they are similar but not the same. Provisionalize has to do with an implant. The provisionalization is a quick, usually same-day, implant placed where the final implant will go. It lets you do a root canal, place a stud, and put in a provisional tooth all at once. Then, when the final tooth arrives, it is easy to remove the provisional tooth and replace it without surgery. Previously, there would be a root canal surgery, a wait, then another surgery to place the stud and implant. Apparently it is important that the provisionalization doesn't touch other teeth (or "occlude" other teeth). As for temporization, that is a temporary dental item, such as a cap or veneer. It is not temporary to be replaced with a final item. It is just temporary to eventually be discarded, possibly replaced with another temporary item. 216.59.42.36 (talk) 14:09, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

September 4

Nodes of atomic orbitals

When dealing with atomic orbitals, we say they have nodes where the wave function's value (and hence the probability density) is zero. Some nodes occur at particular angles (relative to an arbitrary origin) and are known as angular nodes, and some occur at particular radii from the nucleus and are known as radial nodes. The number of radial nodes for a given orbital is given by the relationship n-l-1 where n is the principle quantum number and l is the orbital angular momentum quantum number. Now, all orbitals have a node at the nucleus itself except for s orbitals (l=0). It stands to reason that this node must be a radial node, because it occurs at all angles, but only at the particular radius of zero. But the 3d orbital has quantum numbers n=3 and l=2, so it should have no radial nodes. I can confirm that it does have a node at the nucleus by looking at its radial wave function which shows it approaching zero at the origin as opposed to the s orbitals which do not. So I have a contradiction. Either the 3d orbital does have a radial node, or the node found at the nucleus for orbitals where l>0 is not a radial node, though I don't see how it is an angular node either...maybe it's a special type of node? 202.155.85.18 (talk) 02:51, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Atomic orbital is our main article. Your

${\text{radial nodes}}=n-l-1$

formula is off by one for all p and d orbitals (even for 2p, n=2 and l=1 so 2-1-1=0 but your radial wave function diagram has zero amplitude at r=0) so it is definitely something special about the center vs r>0 nodes.

What is the origin of your formula? Not that I dispute it (it's easy to find in many college-level texts), but there may be an explanation in the surrounding prose. For example, [2] says: " The ‘-1’ portion accounts for the node that exists at the ends. (A half of one node exists at one end and since there are two ends, there’s a total of one node located at the ends.)" Look at the shape of the s with a maximum at r=0 vs others having a standard (amplitude=0) node at the center (as you notice, it's unusual). So the idea of a node possibly not actually existing there in the same way could mean that the –1 term is not correct in the other context (or is mis-explained in one vs the other).

The formula is from my inorganic chemistry text. They seem to be treating these "nuclear" nodes as a kind of special node, distinct from radial nodes. Fair enough. The rest is making sense to me now. I have another question though: the text also gives this relationship between the number of peaks in the radial distribution function that just seems totally wrong. A 1s orbital's RDF would have no peaks if this relationship were true, but on the very next page they give the radial distribution function of a 1s orbital with 1 peak. The relationship also fails for other orbitals' RDFs which don't display the predicted number of peaks. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 04:34, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Other refs call the r=0 of s an "antinode", and looking at our Node (physics) article, this appears to be a good description for a "free boundary" due to the nature of the system rather than a zero amplitude. So if that counts as a node, then every calculation by the formula is off by one (1s has 1 node—the antinode) and the "–1" term is simply a bogus/fudge-factor to account for imprecise or incompletely explained other terminology. DMacks (talk) 04:26, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

My text uses the term "anti-node" to refer to anywhere there isn't a node. So in that case, the nucleus is an anti-node in the case of s orbitals, but a node in the case of all other orbitals. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 04:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Have a look at Commons:Hydrogen_orbitals_3D. The complex solutions are the ones that really let you see what is going on; add complex solutions with opposite m numbers to get a real solution with nodes on the x and y axes. Looking at the pictures, you can see the argument that the node "occurs at all angles" is flawed. For the m=0 solution, you should see there are two nodes that have the cross section of an "X of revolution" passing through the center ... I suppose I can't call them "planes", but they're not radial. For the m=2 and m=-2 case, add them up and you'll see the genuine planes that are apparent at Commons:Hydrogen orbitals 3D real for most of the d orbitals. Yeah, the 5th d orbital is different in a sense from the others, yet it has something of the same idea. Wnt (talk) 16:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Gravity

Something about Einstein's theory of gravity never sounded right. Warping space time? But if time is just a series of events, and space is the absence of matter, how can it be warped by a physical object? There's nothing to warp in the first place, is there?

And if space time does exist, it would extend indefinitely into infinity, so it ain't like you have a flat surface that you can throw a ball unto. Did Einstein think the universe was 2D? Makuta Makaveli (talk) 04:57, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Spacetime is not 2D, but to visualize the effect of a massive object on spacetime, it is convenient to consider the effect only in two dimensions. That's why you often see pictorial representations such as this one. Once you understand what is being implied in 2 dimensions, you can mentally extrapolate that to the third spacial dimension, though it's rather difficult to represent in an image. Then if you also incorporate the time dimension, it becomes even harder to represent as an image, and we use things like animated light cones to show what's going on. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Is warped spavetime the only explanation for gravity? It sounds beautiful, but then again there was never any nobel prize for it, and maybe for good reason. Makuta Makaveli (talk) 05:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

There are no good explanations for gravity at all. We only have good descriptions of its effects. We don't know what causes it anymore than we know why two like charges repel one another. From observing the way objects behave in response to gravitational fields we can confirm that general relativity is a very good description that predicts essentially all observations to within experimental error. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 05:31, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Special relativity has also not earned a Nobel Prize. Does it mean that it is incorrect as well? Ruslik_Zero 20:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, I don't understand why space is often looked at as if it were a physical entity.

In the words of Douglas Grossman, "Space is volume, nothing more. It's not a physical entity. It is an idea like distance or area. When you walk through the area of a doorway, do you bump into anything? No, because area is an idea, same as space. Space is nothing, physically. It has no mass or energy, although mass and energy can be found within it. Space itself is not a physical entity and has no properties of its own other than volume. It's an abstract idea we use to understand the arrangement and movement of matter and energy in our world. Only matter and energy exist physically."

"What about the expansion of the universe? Galaxies move apart from one another in every direction, thus more volume (space) appears between them as they do so, but believing space carries the galaxies with it as it 'expands' is a misconception. Space is not expanding, galaxies are just moving apart." Makuta Makaveli (talk) 05:38, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

As far as the assertion about the motion of galaxies, that's an easily testable alternative theory: if a distant galaxy is 1 billion light years away from us and moving away from us at 0.5c, then light emitted by it now should reach us in 1 billion years. But if the space between us and the galaxy is also expanding, it will take longer. The fact that it takes longer is one way we know that relativity is correct. This is well understood aspect of the nature of the universe and is applied in astronomy as Comoving and proper distances. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 05:43, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

If space was not physical, you could not observe it, move in it, measure it (distance and time), etc. See also the information about perfect vacuums. —PaleoNeonate – 08:03, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

We're moving in space right now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:08, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

• Maybe, just maybe, general relativity is a bit more complex that the pop-science view of "mass warps spacetime". (It is also a bit more complex than "Einstein invented it all".) The fact that it did not get a Nobel prize is, let's say, not the best test of the correctness of a scientific theory; General_relativity#Consequences_of_Einstein's_theory has a lot of experimental tests without any less worse explanation. I dunno who this Douglas Grossman fellow is, but a paragraph of pop-sci from him is hardly a refutation of experimentally-validated theories. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 07:26, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, a google search on the name doesn't yield any prominent results for anyone likely to be an authority on physics. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.212.15.178 (talk) 10:53, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

The above quote seems to come from a comment on Quora by someone with the name quoted above [3] Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Douglas Grossman may not be an authority on physics, but I like his definition so I chose it. if a distant galaxy is 1 billion light years away from us and moving away from us at 0.5c, then light emitted by it now should reach us in 1 billion years. But if the space between us and the galaxy is also expanding, it will take longer.

General relativity can't be the only way to explain this. PaleoNeonate said, If space was not physical, you could not observe it, move in it, measure it (distance and time), etc. This can be easily refuted. When you measure space, you are measuring nothing, uninhabited and matterless void. It's the same as measuring the invisible line around the earth called the Equator, which doesn't exist. As for moving space, there is nothing to move in the first place, and nothing to observe. Instead, you'd be observing and moving matter, which may or may not be invisible. Makuta Makaveli (talk) 17:29, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

General relativity is a set of equations and assumptions that purport to model the behavior of matter on a grand scale (on ordinary scales it reduces to simple Newtonian gravitation, and on quantum scales it breaks down completely). Scientists like the theory of general relativity because it not only provides an elegant explanation for cosmological observations, it has accurately predicted many new observations since its conception. There is no alternative to general relativity that makes better predictions. You can like or dislike how spacetime is described, but the math works out regardless. Perhaps you can describe more clearly what experimental or other observational result you think contradicts general relativity, or is better explained by something else. But you shouldn't put too much stock in verbal explanations seeming wonky to you - it's just a model, after all. The important part of the theory is that it can accurately predict what you will observe when you test the effects of gravity. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:40, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Like a lot of things in physics, you can ignore the advanced theories if you don't measure quantities very precisely. So to shift the burden to the original poster: how accurately do you measure gravity, when you measure gravity? If the answer to this question is "I don't measure gravity," then you're categorically unqualified to have an opinion on the various advanced methods that others use to predict and measure gravity. Nimur (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2018 (UTC

My main issue is with how space and time are pictured in the General Relativity. Sure, it predicts and measures just fine, but are scientists sure that space time is responsible for gravity? Makuta Makaveli (talk) 02:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Scientists are sure that the equations we commonly call "general relativity" are an accurate and precise mathematical model, and this mathematical model has explanatory power when we study gravity. Equations do not cause things like gravity - rather, equations can be used to explain things like gravity.

If you don't like these explanations, or if you don't understand them, that's okay. Major league ball players don't ask you to like or understand their methodology for picking batting orders in the mid-season; economists don't ask you to like or understand their theories about quantitative easing policy or its relationship to monetary inflation; physicists don't ask you to like or understand complicated mathematical models of gravity. These pursuits, to the extent practically possible, are meritocracies that are conducted by expert professional specialists; it takes a lot of years of dedicated work to develop the fundamental skills; and until you have established credibility in these fields by following well-established career-trajectories working toward the professional level, the experts don't really care what opinions you have about their work. You are free to critique advanced physics - or to complain that you don't understand it - but it will be about as productive as if you complain about the coaching strategy for a professional sports team. Your opinion carries no weight, and your critiques don't merit attention, because you aren't playing in the same league.

One does not begin a study of physics with generalizations of gravity; one does not embark on their ball-playing career as a starting pitcher for the Yankees.

To make my point more bluntly - if you want to understand general relativity, you begin by investing five or six years studying the easier parts of mathematical physics - usually by pursuing formal undergraduate college education culminating in a degree in mathematics or physics - and then you begin to study relativistic generalizations. If you think you can skip past those first five or six years of the easy stuff, you must be a super-genius whose superior mental acuity far exceeds that of the physicists whose work you are pretending not to understand.

Nimur (talk) 02:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Piscis piscātor unus sunt? I'd like to talk with you sometime, Nimur. I'm sure the conversation would be intriguing. Makuta Makaveli (talk) 06:32, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

This is quantum mechanics, not relativity, but "empty space" is anything but: see Casmir effect, quantum foam, and related articles. It sounds to me like you have aesthetic objections to how relativity is commonly visualized. That's fine, but it doesn't change anything. The math makes certain predictions, every prediction that's been tested to date is correct, so we use it. If you don't like the visualizations, don't use them. As Someguy1221 stated, it's a model. All models are wrong; some are useful.

Fun fact: modern heliocentrism took a while to get off the ground (pun intended) in part because Copernicus was wrong about planetary orbits. He insisted they must be perfect circles, not ellipses, because circles are perfect shapes, and the heavenly spheres must only contain perfect shapes (following Plato, who stated the same). Since as we now know, planetary orbits are in fact ellipses, his published system involved all kinds of epicycles to make the orbits "correct", just like the Ptolemaic system it tried to replace. Hence, it was not any more elegant, and few people thought it had much merit. It took Kepler, working from Brahe's actual observations, to deduce that orbits were ellipses. This kind of metaphysical reasoning was really the norm for most of history. The Scientific Revolution was in large part about, "Hey, let's make predictions based on observation and test our predictions, instead of deciding how things must be and then looking for evidence to confirm it." Newton was quite troubled by gravity appearing to be some invisible force that caused action at a distance, but fortunately he published his theory anyway. The universe doesn't care what some apes on a tiny dirtball think about it. I feel similarly about the debates over interpretations of quantum mechanics. If we can't test it, it's irrelevant. Shut up and calculate. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 09:30, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

GR can be derived from first principles. Count Iblis (talk) 14:17, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

No more answers are needed, Nimur has already given a satisfactory one. Thank you, you all have been exceedingly helpful for this test. Makuta Makaveli (talk) 17:41, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The Ptolemaic theory was actually better at predicting the planetary positions than Copernicus'. The elephant in the room, however, was the lunar theory. Although it predicted the position rather well, the size of the epicycle meant that there would be a huge increase in the moon's apparent size at its closest approach. Astronomers were well aware that the apparent diameter increased only by one part in seven - they knew the theory was wrong. 86.133.58.87 (talk) 19:18, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Spider

What spider is this one, at least at the family or genus level? Spotted in my room, 3 cm in length (with legs). Possibly orb-weaver, but not sure. Brandmeister^talk 10:54, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Where? Looks perhaps like one of the many grass spiders; the image is perplexing, doesn't seem to follow a proper arachnid body-plan→

Arachnid anatomy:
(1) four pairs of legs
(2) prosoma (cephalothorax)
(3) opisthosoma (abdomen)

2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 17:31, 4 September 2018 (UTC) ... perhaps the abdomen is "missing"?

It's probably a male; they often have smaller, rather indistinct abdomens (lacking the egg producing organs that females need) which often don't show a clear break with the cephalothorax. The legs in the picture (the two-and-two on each side) reminds me of an orb weaver of some sort, especially the Argiope (spider) genus. --Jayron32 17:44, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

September 6

Alpha decay of Be-9?

My inorganic chemistry text book contains this practice problem. The question seems totally nonsensical to me. Firstly, Be-9 is a stable isotope. It doesn't undergo alpha decay. Secondly, even if it did undergo decay, it could not have a daughter product 3 mass units heavier than itself, plus an alpha particle and then neutrons on top of that. The text gives this answer which makes even less sense (many of the other answers to problems are obviously incorrect, so I don't put a lot of stock in what they give). The equation balances, but it involves a step where two Be-9 nuclei first fuse, which is not what I'd call simply "Be-9 undergoes alpha decay"). Any help would be appreciated. 139.194.67.236 (talk) 02:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. Which kind of textbook makes basic errors like this?--Jasper Deng (talk) 02:40, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

It's Shriver & Atkins' Inorganic Chemistry, the Atkins being Peter Atkins. His physical chemistry textbooks are the go-to for many courses as they're really probably the best out there, but this inorganic text is full of errors. 139.194.67.236 (talk) 03:00, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The problem is nonsensical, even as a hypothetical sample problem meant to demonstrate simple concepts, like conservation of mass number and atomic number in nuclear decay events. Alpha decay as a process should always produce a smaller atom, not a larger one. Strictly speaking, if Be-9 were to undergo alpha decay (not that it would, merely if we were to work out the product if it did), the product should be He-5, not C-12. Something emitting an alpha particle and gaining mass number and atomic number is nonsensical. --Jayron32 15:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The fusion reaction given in the answer is allowed as a spontaneous reaction, let's see if anyone here can come up with an estimate of the reaction rate per atom in piece of Be-metal at room temperature. Count Iblis (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

That reaction is literally how the neutron was discovered. Though it is inaccurate for a textbook to refer to this as decay of ⁹Be. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:39, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Providing the current precision limit of our measurements, what is the minimal size of the universe?

I am not referring to the observable universe, but to the entire universe.

As far I understand, current observation is that the universe is flat, and this indicate infinite universe.

However, the measurements have a precision limit, which still allow a very low curvature, beneath our measuring abilities.

Assuming the curvature is as big as possible to exist but still not to be detected, what is the size of the universe? אילן שמעוני (talk) 04:23, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

14 trillion lightyears according to this. 139.194.67.236 (talk) 11:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Or it may be that the universe has a high curvature, but the part we can observe just happens to be on a flat spot. Or there may be something we don't understand yet that negates the assumption that flat=infinite. Or perhaps the Simulation hypothesis is true and the owner of the simulator doesn't bother simulating the parts that cannot be observed. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:45, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I think we can eliminate any variation of solipsism from any scientific analysis of the universe. Once we start getting into unfalsifiable ideas, we've moved from the realm of science into something else. The axiom that reality exists and is knowable (or at least reliably modelable) by humans is necessary for any productive realm of thought to move forward; once we start dealing in fanciful and unfalsifiable possibilities, we're outside the scope of the question. --Jayron32 18:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

You actually think that the claim that the entire universe (not just the visible universe) has the same curvature throughout is falsifiable? How exactly would you falsify it? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:37, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

It could be in principle falsified by information from gravitational waves or neutrino radiation that predate the recombination (and thus give us a larger observable universe, maybe even all of it) or in the event of a big crunch we eventually get to observe all of the universe as it comes hurtling back to us (which ironically, is more likely to happen if we are in some sort of unrepresentative bubble that is unlike the rest of the universe with different cosomological constants and curvature and all that). Could also be primordial wormholes or other exotic phenomena that link us to regions of the "unobservable" universe. We don't have enough certainty to declare that it's definitely unfalsifiable. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 02:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Every time you speak you make it clear how unworthwhile it is to listen to you. --Jayron32 11:35, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

According to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." I'm not sure we can say all that much more about the size of the entire universe at this point. Dmcq (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

We can provide lower limits (probably larger than the diameter of the surface of large scattering). The Wikipedia article is Shape of the Universe (note that a flat Universe need not be infinite), but that is weak on observational constraints. Planck results are analysed here, and this should be a readable summary. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Its one of the tasks of the James Webb Space Telescope to find that answer. Please have some patience and send some well wishes to NASA.

September 7

Distance of electron from Hydrogen Nucleus

I have another question from my inorganic textbook. From reading the text, I more or less know what they want me to say. In its ground state, hydrogen's single electron will be in the 1s orbital. The answer to a) is that the electron's most probable location is where the radial probability density is highest (i.e. the square of the radial wave function). From this graph in the text (where the radial probability density is denoted R²), it's clear that the highest probability is at the nucleus itself. For part b) the question is asking about the radial distribution function (drawn in red in the same graph), which has a maximum at the point equal to the Bohr radius (52.9pm) on the nuclear charge (1 for hydrogen, so the answer is 52.9pm). Even though I'm pretty sure I know what they want me to say, I don't understand what it means. How can the most probable distance be 52.9pm from the nucleus when the most probable location is the nucleus itself? What does that actually mean? Is it something like "The most probable distance is 52.9pm in any direction from the nucleus, so the most probable location is the average of those points i.e. in the center"?

Also, the text gives me this relationship for determining the maximum of the radial distribution function. But it only seems to be for 1s electrons. The accompanying text notes that the number should be higher for higher n values, but there's nowhere to actually plug in n, and I need to determine the value for n=2 to solve part c) What is the most probable distance of a 2s electron from the nucleus? 202.155.85.18 (talk) 09:31, 7 September 2018 (UTC) EDIT: Actually, they also give me this graph in the text. Perhaps I'm just supposed to read off that the maximum of a 2s orbital's radial distribution function is a tiny bit over 2x the Bohr radius and leave it at that? Googling around there are some tutorials for physics students explaining how to actually determine the 2s RDF numerically and then find the maximum, but I'm fairly sure I'm not meant to be able to do that given this passage in the text. 202.155.85.18 (talk) 09:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

this page has a discussion of the derivations of the various radii in question. --Jayron32 11:32, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Mistake in article

In Apollo 11, it says "Aldrin joined him about 20 minutes later". In Buzz Aldrin: "Aldrin set foot on the Moon at 03:15:16 on July 21, 1969 (UTC), 9 minutes after Armstrong first touched the surface".111.235.89.222 (talk) 11:34, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I reviewed the details, and I'm comfortable with using the vague language, "about 20 minutes later," because the article introduction is only providing an abbreviated summary.

One of the best resources for factual details of the Apollo lunar missions is the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. Here's the transcript for Armstrong and Aldrin during the first extravehicular activity on the moon's surface.

Ultimately, both astronauts got on the moon within "about" twenty minutes, depending on how you count - the procedures for the very first moon landing were complicated. The process of exiting the Lunar Module - just "walking out the door" - actually took several minutes. Here are Page 40 and Page 41 of the EVA checklist.

I think it's alright for our article's lead paragraph to say "twenty minutes" - readers who want more details about precisely what was going on during that time can find such details in the rest of the article and in the primary sources referenced by the article. Nimur (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I looked at the Lunar Surface Journal (linked above), and Armstrong stepped onto the Moon at about 109:24:20, mission elapsed time. Aldrin is on the LM footpad about 109:42, but he sets foot on the Moon about 109:44, so "20 minutes later" is good. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 15:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Efficient swimming: horizontal or vertical fin

Does it make any difference, even if it's a small one, whether a marine animal (imagine dolphin vs shark) has its tail fin attached horizontally or vertically? Obviously, there's an ergonomic difference. Humans will have a hard time flapping a fin horizontally. I ask discounting such issues. --Doroletho (talk) 13:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Without addressing the more general scenario I would observe that, close to the surface, a horizontal fin (i.e. one moving up and down) could waste some of its energy by causing splashes where a vertical (side-to-side) fin would not. However, IANAHydrodynamicist. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.253 (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Ignoring issues of when fish break the surface or when they are skimming the bed, the orientation of the caudal fin (tail fin) is irrelevant. It isn't about orientation. It is about movement. Fish flex side-to-side, not up and down. It is how the spine and muscles are arranged. Sea mammals flex up and down, so they have horizontal fins. 216.59.42.36 (talk) 15:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I think it evident that Doroletho knows this, and addressed it by mentioning ergonomics. I understand the query to be whether there is any inherent propulsive advantage, assuming perfected body design in either case, of a vertical tail fin over a horizontal one or vice-versa. I would have thought not, but as previously mentioned IANAH.

It occurs to me that one circumstance where it might make a difference is if our hypothetical entity needs to change directions more often or more quickly in a horizontal plane (changing direction) or a vertical one (diving or ascending), since a caudal fin is generally larger, stronger and (by virtue of its position) has more leverage than more "inboard" fins like pectoral, pelvic, etc.

Our articles Fish locomotion and Aquatic locomotion might contain material of some relevance. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.253 (talk) 19:24, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Animals that need to surface and dive have horizontal tails for the movement to and from the surface. Animals that breathe underwater have vertical tails. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.203.98 (talk) 21:07, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

It would be a mistake to attribute all of this to what makes the most sense given an animal's lifestyle, without considering evolution, as was discussed above you. It makes just as much sense for lifestyle to follow from forms and functions that are already available. Fish spines flex in the left-right axis, while mammalian spines flex in the dorsal-ventral axis. There are fish with horizontal tails, from the perspective of someone perpendicular to the ground: flatfish. They actually move with one side facing down, and one facing up, but their bodies are strikingly asymmetrical in the left-right axis, giving a functional top and bottom. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:42, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Googling the subject indicates that the fastest fish are faster than the fastest mammals - but not by a whole lot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the fastest species in water is the Marlin, reaching speeds of up to 80 km/h (50 mph). They have a very thin, long body tho, so it would be unfair to compare them with the much more "bulky" Dolphins, who manage 55 km/h (35 mph) with different fins. In fluid dynamics it does not make a difference. Besides Dolphins are so smart, they would probably start swimming tilted to 90 degrees if that would give them a speed advantage. --Kharon (talk) 07:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

September 8

Forest planets and city planets

I know lately that astronomers talk about ocean planets, iron planets, ice planets, and lava planets and are mentioned in scientific journals. I also believe there exists forest planets and city planets such as seen in science fiction. But why haven't the possibilities of forest planets and city planets seriously considered by astronomers and mentioned in journals? (though I've seen one mention of forest planets when talking about observing fingerprint of red edge vegetation using spectra) Forest planets provide evidence of complex vegetation on the surface, while city planets have evidence of intelligent civilization. Forest planets would have trees that cover most (but not all) of the planet's surface, while city planets have urban areas that cover much of the surface. PlanetStar 03:15, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't either of those just be terrestrial planets? 139.194.67.236 (talk) 03:42, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Although evidence + speculation = theory,^[me] speculation is the realm of science fiction and evidence is the realm of science journals. I'm sure, however, that astronomers and astrophysicists discuss such things around the water cooler (so to speak). 107.15.157.44 (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

A "forest planet" is unlikely to exist, unless you significantly dilute the definition of "forest". It would require most of a planet's land to be covered by a certain type of life, regardless of variations in climate, terrain, etc. To look at our single example, Earth, trees can't thrive where it's too arid, or it gets too much below freezing for too long, or the soil is unsuitable. Even in some of these habitats where it's possible to grow certain trees (e.g., grasslands), other organisms out-compete them because they're better-adapted. A ecumenopolis is hypothetically possible, but efforts to detect other planets will naturally focus on the more likely scenario (as here on Earth) of large urban areas, but not ones covering the entire planet.

The examples you've given are the result of processes not involving life, and these processes are fairly well-understood, most with examples in our own Solar System: ice planet, ocean planet, iron planet, lava planet. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:24, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I believe forest planets do exist, albeit rarely. Our galaxy contains billions of planets, at least few of those are forest planets. Naturally making into forest planets with trees or tree-like organisms growing over much of the surface are naturally difficult but not impossible. Forest planets can still have mountains, deserts, savannahs, bodies of water, and ice fields and glaciers, albeit covering substantially less than 50% of the planet in total. Several forest planets are seen in science fiction, including Dagobah and Endor (moon) in Star Wars. A related type is jungle planet, which would have jungles covering more than 50% of the planet's surface. I believe city planets like Coruscant are even more rare than forest planets and jungle planets. PlanetStar 02:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Well sure, if you define "forest planet" as simply "any planet with more than 50% of land occupied by forest", such planets are more likely. I think "forest planet" in science fiction generally implies near-total coverage. Earth has 30% of land occupied by forest, so we're not too far from being a forest planet under that definition. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

How many of the earth's trees can be seen from the earth's moon? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

None individually, but attempts at analyzing exoplanets don't involve trying to spot trees through a telescope, which is impossible, but tools such as spectroscopic analysis. If there are lots of photosynthetic organisms that absorb certain wavelengths of light, that will cause an effect that may be detectable. Another smoking gun would be the presence of free oxygen in the atmosphere, which is also detectable through spectroscopy. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

If a planet were covered in trees, where would they get their water? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

From rain, deriving ultimately from the planet's oceans. I don't think anyone (else) in this discussion is envisaging a planetary surface 100% covered by forested land, but rather a planet whose land surface is so covered. If that land surface were confined to the temperate, tropical (in the geographical sense) and equatorial zones, with the Polar regions landless, 100% forest land cover seems feasible – I suspect even Earth has been in such a state for some periods in the past, such as during parts of the Devonian.

Then again, there's also Kelp forest.

Nor need we restrict our thought to planetary atmospheres, climates and ecosystems closely resembling Earth's. A somewhat denser atmosphere with a different composition, different patterns of circulation, and forms of life completely unrelated to ours could perhaps plausibly combine to allow "forests" at all latitudes – where's Hal Clement when we need him? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.253 (talk) 00:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Where is Dnieper arising from? Is its origin considered a wellspring?

Dnieper river is one of the impressive rivers of eastern Europe that goes through 3 countries: Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. My question is where does this river arising from? The article (Dnieper) here says that it is arising from Valdai Hills in Russia. What does it mean? Does it mean that its origin is a wellspring in fact? (I tried to find a picture of Dnieper's origin but I didn't find it.). I'm trying to understand what gives a supply of water to Dnieper, is it rain that directly falls on Dnieper or around it, or is it a huge wellspring in Valdai Hills in Russia that gives it its capacity?93.126.116.89 (talk) 05:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

If you read the article you linked to you would know that the source of the Dnieper is the sedge bogs (Akseninsky Mokh) of the Valdai Hills in central Russia.. The article includes a reference which will lead you to [4] which confirms this: The source of the Dnipro lies in the northwest part of the Central Upland—in the Valdai Upland, at an elevation of 220 m, among turf swamps.. So the answer to your question is that the river's source is in bogs or swamps, not a spring. Bazza (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Request article review: Levonorgestrel

Our article on Levonorgestrel is likely to be in the news in the next few days, based upon this news story:[5]

I would like to request a review of the article and its sourcing to make sure that everything is accurate.

When it comes to medical topics, an electronics engineer like myself is pretty much lost (I have this mental picture of a non-engineer M.D. trying to "fix" our Cockcroft–Walton generator or Hall effect articles...), but the following quote from a citation in the article seems to my untrained eye be in conflict with WP:MEDRS, even though the source seems otherwise reliable.

"In 2002, a judicial review ruled that pregnancy begins at implantation, not fertilisation"

As I said, I have zero expertise here and am making no suggestions for specific changes. Its just that the above quote looks more political than medical to me. I just think medical questions should be answered through research, not judges and juries. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:32, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Our article describes some debate over whether there might be a post-fertilization effect. If there is one it is not the major effect, but understandably those who think life begins at conception will be appalled at the possibility. I have not done enough review - if it is possible at all - to tell if one point of view can be relegated to a fringe theory. Wnt (talk) 16:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

The article on emergency contraception though says several times that there is no post-fertillization effect and stresses the distinction between emergency contraceptives and abortifacients . Despite what the article says though at least one abortifacient, mifepristone, is also prescribed as an emergency contraceptive. Additionally, it notes that copper based spermicides almost certainly have abortive properties. 139.194.65.208 (talk) 03:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Meth mouth, "krokodil", and phosphorus

I was just watching a documentary on the remarkable nasty effects of Russian homemade desocodeinedesomorphine, called "krokodil" because the users' skin becomes badly infected and scarred. There is a good article about it here; the photos are intense. Apparently it is made the same way, the "Nagai route", as methamphetamine, which has been blamed for "meth mouth". Both can involve phossy jaw, a syndrome initially encountered from white phosphorus contamination of workers. White phosphorus causes that syndrome via its conversion to bisphosphonates, one very similar to a drug used to treat osteoporosis (in milder dosage!) [6]

Now what's confusing me is -- what is the harmful substance that gets into the victims? (Aside perhaps from whatever the "krokodil" does to injection sites on the skin, most likely, which might be something as simple as acid-base) I mean, I've mulled over a few ideas...

1. Red phosphorus. Lots of it is left in the homemade reactions, and users consume it. Problem: red phosphorus is supposed to be pretty much nontoxic as far as I know, which is why you find it on matchboxes or even inhaled.

2. White phosphorus back reaction. I was thinking maybe somehow the red phosphorus reaction could equilibrate backward and deposit white phosphorus as part of an equilibrium. The problem is, the Nagai route as far as I know goes from 2 P (polymeric) + 3 I2 -> 2 PI3 and PI3 + H2O -> PI(OH)2 + HI etc. until all the hydriodic acid is released. The first reaction is not reversible and the second quickly destroys the possibility of the product to go backward anyway.

3. Direct bisphosphonate production. According to that source above, white phosphorus can react inside the body to form bisphosphonates. So can the red phosphorus, under clandestine reaction conditions, form some kind of bisphosphonate with the organic compounds in solution? Problem: I'd have thought that this contaminant would be found in forensic analyses of the drugs.... though that might also be true of any other idea.

4. "Leftover" white phosphorus. The structure of red phosphorus is supposed to be amorphous. Is it possible that reacting it with iodine leaves over some tetrahedra, because they might be somewhat better "leaving groups" than the other potential units of red phosphorus, so that some is converted to white phosphorus after all?

I feel like someone should have worked this out, or at least that it can be worked out with the data available. There are methods like treatment with copper sulfate and silver nitrate that can decontaminate white phosphorus even on skin [7] and so I wonder if they could also be applied to users or to the drugs before their consumption. Similarly, bisphosphonate would be expected to adhere to bone, so filtering through ground bone might remove it. Of course, I have no idea either is true. Wnt (talk) 17:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

You are mistaken: "krokodil" is desomorphine, not desocodeine. Ruslik_Zero 19:03, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry! I looted that article for a figure to put in the other (it's on the synthesis pathway) and managed to confuse myself. ;) Wnt (talk) 12:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The first article linked by Ruslik0 has a section on this specific question: Desomorphine#Toxicity_of_"krokodil". It claims:

Causes of this damage are from iodine and phosphorus (and other toxic substances) that are present after synthesis. Addicts often use readily available but relatively toxic and impure solvents such as gasoline or paint thinner during the reaction scheme, without adequately removing them afterwards before injection. Strong acids and bases such as hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide are also employed without measuring pH of the final solution and analysis of leftover solutions of "krokodil" in used syringes showed the pH was typically less than 3 (i.e. as acidic as lemon juice). Failure to remove insoluble fillers and binding aids from the codeine tablets used as starting material, as well as co-administration with pharmaceuticals such as tropicamide and tianeptine, are also cited as possible contributors to the high toxicity observed in users.

There's no inline cite for this para so it's hard to tell which of the sources is being used, but there are some for the section so it may be there.

On a side note, I would just point out that the relative non-toxicity of red phosphorus, compared to white phosphorus, doesn't necessarily make it a good idea to inject it. Hope that's not "medical advice". --Trovatore (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I would imagine that even if meth mouth is in part due to the fact that the users are inhaling phosphorus, injecting phosphorus would have different effects most likely not localized to the mouth. That's obviously pure speculation though. 139.194.67.236 (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

You still get meth mouth if you inject.

"[Meth] users can go from having a sparkling smile to one of decay and tooth loss in about a year. For one, the drug dries out a person's salivary glands leading to the cottony-mouth feeling. Without the diluting effects of saliva, the acids in your mouth--produced by various foods and bacteria--begin to eat away tooth enamel.

Adding fuel to this mouth decay, meth users may forget to brush their teeth. Whereas the effects of cocaine last about an hour, a meth high can linger for 12 hours. During this half-day high, personal hygiene may not be at the top of the list of things to do.

The extensive tooth decay of meth mouth is attributed to the drug's dry-mouth effect and its propensity to cause cravings for high-calorie carbonated beverages, tooth grinding and clenching, and extended periods of poor oral hygiene"[8]

I know, that's why I was specific to the effects of phosphorus, assuming there are any. In everything I've read on the matter previously, meth mouth was attributed to the dry mouth, teeth grinding and poor hygiene you mentioned. I've never heard of phosphorus being involved. 139.194.65.208 (talk) 02:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The same article also implies that pure desomorphine injected with a sterile syringe will be relatively harmless though highly addictive. People can live for decades injecting it regularly. Ruslik_Zero 20:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

During evolution what was the fovea good for?

Modern humans use the fovea for reading and driving. This can be extracted from the corresponding article. But all this time before the invention of writing systems or cars, what was the fovea good for? Shouldn't this go into the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.141.17 (talk) 22:48, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Does our article on Evolution of the eye answer your question? --Guy Macon (talk) 22:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

The word "Fovea" does not appear in that article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

No, it does not. 31.4.141.17 (talk) 01:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The existence of the fovea is implied in the discussion about the development of the lens. A lens to focus fine details and a part of the eye optimized for seeing those fine details go hand in hand.

As for the implied question "why is sharp vision better than blurry vision", it help one to find prey, fruit, etc that is far away, it stops you from bedding down on an anthill, and it helps in recognizing facial expressions, especially from across the room cave. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

One might argue that the fovea saves having to devote as much brain volume to processing vision as have a whole retina that was as sharp as a fovea. Abductive (reasoning) 03:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The fovea has curiously been gained and lost several times in the evolution of animals. I recommend this article: [9]. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The reason, the article (Fovea centralis?) does not go to deep into the general use from evolutionary perspective, may be that it would be to speculative. There is some hint towards hunting since the anterior lateral eyes of jumping spiders seem to be of similar function but with a very different construction. Like many other carnivores they also have the (focusing) eyes aligned for a rather limited, pure frontal field of view compared to most herbivores who have their eyes on the sides to achieve an almost completely field of view all around them, so predators can not openly sneak up on them. --Kharon (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

September 9

Brainstem removal

I read lots of people had half their brain removed, some right and some left. Yet they are still conscious. I'm almost certainly sure whatever consciousness is, has got to do with the brainstem, and the hemispheres are only for the contents of consciousness. Have there been people with brainstem removed and still alive? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Money is tight (talk • contribs) 00:07, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• Brainstem death. Abductive (reasoning) 03:07, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

You are wrong. The Brainstem is actually responsible for autonomic (involuntary) functions. The consciousness or intellectual capacity seems to happen in the outer surface, especially with the brains windings that achieve much more surface, developed most in species regarded as very intelligent/conscious, like primates or dolphins. --Kharon (talk) 06:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Presumably you are referring to hemispherectomy. This consists of the removal of one of the cerebral hemispheres, not simply "cutting the brain in half". This is an important distinction. Any significant brainstem trauma generally results in severe disability, coma, or death. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:51, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Damage to the brain stem has so devastating consequences because it is responsible for arousal. Being responsible for autonomic functions does not dismiss its importance to consciousness,

BTW, contrary to Kharon's supposition above. Consciousness implies being physiologically alert, awake, and attentive (that is, what arousal is). Not much can be done without these.Doroletho (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

There's a distinction between phenomenal consciousness and "access consciousness". You are phenomenally conscious, for example, when you're dreaming, even though you are not awake or attentive. --Trovatore (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

dose testing

In drug trials, as I (mis)understand, only one dosage is typically used, occasionally two. Why not give each subject a different dose, scattered between zero and the safe limit, so as to learn about the shape of the dose-response curve? —Tamfang (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Because that would be useless, see statistics, sample size and statistical power. As everyone is different, you need to know the effects of a dose across a range of subjects to get meaningful results. Something which is sort of what you're talking about and which is sometimes done in phase 1 is an ascending dose regimen, where the subject will get increasingly larger doses as the trial goes on, but multiple subject will still get that. Fgf10 (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Traditionally, multiple doses are tested in Phase 1 clinical trials, but not usually for Phase 3 clinical trials for the reasons Fgf10 has elucidated. There are attempts to change this approach, through Adaptive clinical trials which do investigate dose modification while exploring the therapeutic effect. Klbrain (talk) 23:41, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

People who need 4 hours of sleep.

I'm 1 of those people who need 8 hours of sleep, so I've always been fascinated (and bummed out) about people who only need 4 hours of sleep. I've heard a lot of CEOs and such only need 4 hours of sleep. Now I finally understand how some people can work overtime jobs. Do we know what's the 50th percentile for sleep schedules? Do we know if there's disadvantages to needing more or less hours of sleep? I even wonder about lifespan. An also an evolution question: years ago I read an article that blue-eyes were a mutation, somewhere among White people thousands of years ago, mutated a blue eyed gene. Now I don't suspect we know much about sleep schedules for humans hundreds-thousands of years ago, but now I'm wondering maybe at 1 time, all the humans in the world needed the same hours of sleep, and someone somewhere evolved to differently. Is sleep schedules also genetic? Both my parents need 8 hours of sleep, and they are different races. Same with my sister. And I asked her before if her boyfriend "needs less hours of sleep than her" and she agrees. And then this makes me wonder, men needing less sleep than women is okay, but, what about the other way around, as a relationship question: can a man who needs 8 hours of sleep, be paired with a woman who only needs 4 hours of sleep? Does anyone know of any relationships which have failed because of this? Do we know what % of the population only need 4 hours of sleep, and I've also heard this is predominantly to men, so perhaps the standard deviation for sleep schedules in men is greater than in women. Oh, and should I lastly say, everyone once in a while, I still meet people who 'deny' people who only need 4 hours of sleep, but I don't think this is a dispute among scientists anymore. They're inclined to believe that they'll suffer in the long run. Thanks. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 10:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC).

I think you'll find that people who sleep only 4 hours also mostly take a siesta, or 'power nap' as they call it. Personally I think having a shorter sleep and a siesta is a better idea but unfortunately modern working hours don't normally go well with that. CEOs of course can do their own hours. Dmcq (talk) 11:30, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

One time Tim Russert was interviewing some old-time Yankees players. Phil Rizzuto commented that Joe DiMaggio (who was known for enjoying the night life) used to take a "power nap" in the dugout when the Yanks were at bat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I think one of the most important talents of any CEO is the ability to lie consistently, frequently, and convincingly in order to make himself look good. That's why your wages and pensions get cut to give them ever bigger bucks... Wnt (talk) 13:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Individual need for sleep can indeed be trained to lesser hours. The Sleep cycle is even known to adapt to that. Id agree with Dmcq not trusting the image CEOs draw of themselves tho it is probably part of their job to look like a blueprint of a healthy workoholic. Most are likely Powernapping at work. While everyone thinks they work 14h/day they may actually sleep 4 hours. Why else do they all need a highly payed Secretary to guard their office door?!

But its a very different case in military. Military "Elite" units like Combat divers for example are actually trained to minimize their need for sleep down to 2 hours per day, on missions. Of course that only works for a few weeks at worst, but it works. --Kharon (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Sleeping just 4 hours could explain the crazy behaviour of some CEOs. There's one who makes electric cars whose ill-advised tweeting has been in the news lately, for example. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 23:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

1% of the population need 4 hours or less sleep. A few examples:

• Stanley A. McChrystal: "McChrystal is reported to run 7 to 8 miles (11 to 13 km) daily, eat one meal per day, and sleep four hours a night."

• Narendra Modi

• Paul Erdős: "… he only needed three hours of sleep. He’d get up early and write letters, mathematical letters. He’d sleep downstairs. The first time he stayed, the clock was set wrong. It said 7:00, but it was really 4:30 A.M. He thought we should be up working, so he turned on the TV full blast. Later, when he knew me better, he’d come up at some early hour and tap on the bedroom door. ‘Ralph, do you exist?’ The pace was grueling. He’d want to work from 8:00 A.M. until 1:30 A.M. Sure we’d break for short meals but we’d write on napkins and talk math the whole time. He’d stay a week or two and you’d collapse at the end."

As for negative effects in lifespan, one has to take into account here that sleeping time should be subtracted from the lifespan to make a fair comparison. Suppose that sleeping 8 hours a day will lead to a 100 years lifespan. But you'll then have been awake for a mere 66.67 years. If you live more than 80 years with 4 hours of sleep a day, you'll have been awake for more than 66.67 years. Note that Paul Erdős died at age 83. Count Iblis (talk) 00:23, 10 September 2018 (UTC)