Talk:Joey Gibson (political activist)

Background of his personal life -expand

This [1] article gives some of the most detailed background on his personal life before becoming a public figure:

• 'The page says he’s married to Haley Gibson, went to Camas High School,... Gibson grew up in Camas, played quarterback at the local high school, got into trouble with the law, including a break-in at a restaurant, according to the Columbian report; he later spent some time in jail and dropped out of school, causing him to be homeless for a while, living in Portland, Seattle, Mexico and Hawaii; When a former middle-school athletic director asked him if he wanted to coach football, Gibson took the opportunity to “clean up” his life, he told The Columbian; coaching at Skyridge Middle School in Camas, Gibson got his high school equivalency diploma and went to Central Washington University to pursue a degree in psychology; he ended up coaching around the county and even tried his hand at flipping houses just before the housing market crash;'

Being a Bio of a living person, I'm not sure how much of these details should be added, even though he has spoken about his past very opening and how he turned his life around. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

That would be excellent detail to add. MB298 (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It would be best for you, MB298, or someone else to add the information and the reference. His wife is of note for her key role and support of his activism and his Senate race. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Will do, tomorrow probably. MB298 (talk) 03:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S. "Gibson doesn’t see himself as right-wing, and shuns most political categorization beyond conservative-libertarian." [2] - If that is helpful for the lede section. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 04:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

BLP Violation

A BLP violation sourced to a student newspaper was repeatedly restored by PeterTheFourth. I've removed it. It should stay out unless additional and reliable sources confirm it. D.Creish (talk) 05:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

And I've restored it. Discuss this change first before reverting. If you revert again, you'll be at 3RR, btw.--Jorm (talk) 05:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

It's sourced. Is it a BLP violation? Maybe, maybe not. But it's sourced. If you want to argue about the validity of the source, that's open for business, either here or (hopefully) at WP:RS.--Jorm (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I've expressed my concern. Address it and get consensus before restoring it. D.Creish (talk) 05:20, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe you're the only person expressing their concern about this source, D.Creish - it may be best to take this to a noticeboard or something if you're adamant that there are sourcing problems. PeterTheFourth (talk)

Normally the BLP concern would be valid but there's three editors who disagree with you and the text is indeed sourced. Volunteer Marek 22:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Assault allegations

Should the article contain the following statement cited to this article [3] in Vanguard, Portland State's student newspaper?

Gibson has also drawn internal criticism from allegations about a habit of using violence against members of his own organization after consuming alcohol.

D.Creish (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Pinging editors who restored the statement @Calton: @Grayfell: @Jorm: @PeterTheFourth: D.Creish (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - Serious (criminal) allegation, weak source. D.Creish (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - the source is a notable newspaper, with long history (was established in 1946) and several awards received for its publications. So it has the right to be considered as "reliable" and be used in such articles.107.242.117.2 (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. It's a tough call. If not exactly an overwhelmingly impressive publication, I think the source probably meets WP:RS standards. And, afterall, that reference only serves as a secondary source aggregating and reporting on various primary sources making the original accusations in highly public social media forums. But at the end of the day, this is an WP:extraordinary claim, nevermind the fact that it might seem to us to fit with previous reporting on the personalities involved, and it requires a certain standard of sourcing--particularly as the proposed wording refers to a supposed "habit" of such behaviour. Under the circumstances, either additional sourcing, adjustment to the proposed wording or both are called for here before inclusion becomes appropriate. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:45, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Change wording I like the points made by Snow Rise. I do think that the material is reliably sourced and due for inclusion, but the current wording could use some changes - we don't need to include the 'habit' wording - possibly it would be better as 'history of'. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion per BLP. The reference is extremely poor. If someone takes it to RSN and it's judged reliable for the information in a BLP, then his RfC should be revisited. --Ronz (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:BLP. A pretty vague accusation from a source of questionable reliability, I could not find any other reliable sources to support same accusation.Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom (talk) 21:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Without additional sources, I Oppose this on BLP grounds. Volunteer Marek 22:12, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose unless better sources are brought forward. We have a very high standard of sourcing for allegations of criminal misconduct before any charges are even filed. An advocacy piece in a newspaper published by college students is not enough. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:47, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Needs better sources, as mentioned by others, under the BLP.(Summoned by bot) ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Lost Senate race:

Joey Gibson received 31,905votes (2.3% of the vote) and failed to secure the needed votes to proceed to the general election in November: [4] In case anyone gets around to updating. 24.16.106.217 (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Done! --Jorm (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

"Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists"

Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists.

Until there's consensus for it's inclusion, properly sourced, and following our content policies, it needs to remain out per BLP. Thank you.

It's not clear what it means, how it relates to Gibson, or why it is worded as it is, or what from the ref supports any of this. I'll look through the article history and report back. --Ronz (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• [5] changed from Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists. without explanation. This is what brought me to the article. The change of content seems a POV vio. --Ronz (talk) 23:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• [6] changed from Members of Patriot Prayer.... Other content changed as well, and this was part of a series of edits.

• [7] First use of the ref and creation of the sentence. --Ronz (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists wording seems most likely to make sense in this article. However, I don't see how the one reference verifies it, and note that Patriot Prayer doesn't have corresponding content. --Ronz (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

References

• "Gibson strives to depict Patriot Prayer as a big tent, and it is. It’s a canvas draped over a grotesque circus whose cast of characters regularly features Nazis, white nationalists, skinheads, neo-Confederates and a melange of other miscellaneous bigots. Despite Joey’s repeated insistence that they are not invited, members of neo-Nazi groups like Identity Evropa and the Daily Stormer Book Clubs still turn out to his rallies on a regular basis." [8]
• "Organizers of a counter-protest said that while Patriot Prayer denies being a white supremacist group, it affiliates itself with known white supremacists, white nationalists and neo-Nazi gangs. [9]
• "Yet, in the past, white supremacists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis have participated in Patriot Prayer's events." [10]
• "What Is Patriot Prayer? The Right-Wing Organization Has Connections With White Supremacy" [11]
• "Members of the two violent far-right groups, Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys — both of which have deep ties to white supremacist organizations" [12]
• Note: This is not a case of only one source, or one person's opinion, but it seems to have a number of supporting documents. - 24.16.106.217 (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

You didn't address any of the concerns with the current content and reference at all.

If you want to make an edit-request with a new source, that would help. Please be sure that the source is reliable and properly verifies the information being proposed.

I don't see how any of the proposed refs above properly verify the content.

Please don't add the content again without consensus, so as to avoid violating WP:BLP once again.

You should first get consensus to include similar material in Patriot Prayer. --Ronz (talk) 15:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find any consensus to use medium.com as a reference at all. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree, as the source seems to be essentially a blog and generally not up to the level of WP:RS. But USA Today, Al Jazeera, The Huffington Post, and Bustle are all sufficiently reliable, and all quite directly identify a far-right aspect to Patriot Prayer's activities and associations. That said, I agree with your other two minor notations as well: 1) it may be more pragmatic (though not required by policy) to sort the issue at Talk:Patriot Prayer first, if (inexplicably) that article does not have any mention of these connections as yet, and 2) I think something more similar to your wording ("Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists.") would flow better and be much clearer than "Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists." I wouldn't be surprised if we can find sources labeling Gibson himself as a far-right agitator, but I think the point is made when you notate the character of the organization itself. And crucially, I think we'd need more on-the-nose sourcing to support the claim that Gibson himself is a white supremacist. Saying that Gibson has proved controversial and then mentioning the (sourced) assertion that the group he heads has been regarded as white supremacist/far right is a reasonable middle ground solution that balances WP:V and WP:BLP. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:30, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I did a Google search of "Patriot Prayer white supremacists" and these came up on the first page of the 280,000 results; I did not bother looking further as there seem to be so many sources that make a direct connections with Patriot Prayer protests attracting white supremacists. Patriot Prayer has also invited them to speak at a number of their rallies and have had some very open relationships with known white supremacists. Yes, the group repeatedly denounces racism and white supremacists publicly, but they continue to show up with their Confederate Battle Flags and their OKKK hand signs from the sources. 24.16.106.217 (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Recommendation that more sources be used to support this statement and that the text be changed as suggested to: ("Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists.") 24.16.106.217 (talk) 16:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)