Talk:Polio vaccine

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Chem box problems

I am not sure how to update the chembox so it can be verified. This is not a chemical, so it has no CAS ID, further, the page refers to two different vaccines, and so I can't make the vaccine type one or the other. Any thoughts on how to deal with that? Mike Dacre (talk) 23:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What was the first polio vaccine?

I'm confused. Don't the following contradict each other?

Two polio vaccines are used throughout the world to combat poliomyelitis (or polio). The first was developed by Jonas Salk and first tested in 1952. It was announced to the world by alk on April 12, 1955. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

The first polio vaccine was developed in 1950 by Hilary Koprowski. The second one was developed by Salk also at the University of Pittsburgh, and announced to the world on April 12, 1955. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio#Vaccine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelliot (talk • contribs) 00:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I understand, the first inactivated polio vaccine was actually created in 1896. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.114.105.102 (talk) 12:11, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

What I understand is that Koprowski developed the first vaccination that protected against some strains of polio but not all. It was not until the late fifties that Koprowski, Salk and Sabin each came out with vaccines effective against all strains of polio. 69.250.149.96 (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Adjuvant

There is no mention of an Adjuvant added to the attenuated poliovirus preparation. 79.76.193.4 (talk) 14:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

bOPV

The article should cover the bOPV.

After virus type 2 was eliminted in 1999, the bivalent polio vaccine (bOPV) was introduced in 2009, beginning with Afghanistan. bOPV was shown to be as effective as the monovalent vaccines and more effective than the trivalent vacine. Citations: Lancet WHO Reuters The Globe and Mail -62.31.84.234 (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

passages

This article uses the word "passages" referring to a processing step in virus production. This is a term of art that should be defined clearly. I believe a correct definition is "a solution containing the virus and other material is injected into a live animal's brain where it is allowed to grow for some days before the animal is killed and fluid is extracted from the brain". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jintian (talk • contribs) 04:31, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Eradication claimed

One of the external links claims that the virus has been eradicated. Comments?

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 01:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Moving history section

I am moving the history section to the beginning of the article where it is more appropriate.

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 10:13, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

FA review

If anyone wants to help get this article to FA status (with me) please leave a friendly note here and I will be in touch. Best Regards,

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 15:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

You could also try leaving a note at WT:MED if you haven't already to see if anyone wants to collaborate. delldot ∇. 23:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

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French had the first polio vaccine

This should be included in Wikipedia.

The Pasteur Institute stated that an anti-poliomyelitis vaccine, developed by Professor Pierre Lepine would soon be produced in large quantities. (Times, London, April 4, 1955). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 16:42, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Lepine's vaccine was a great success http://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/e_lep0.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 04:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Good, please find sources, and Lepine should have a bio. His bio on frwiki is a bit scanty [1]. I'd be interested in seeing a source concerning the comparative use of the Salk vs. the Lepine vaccines. The frwiki article mentions him in conjunction with Sabin in 1957 and gives precedence to Salk in 1955 [2], so I'm not convinced on the "first" assertion. Acroterion (talk) 04:14, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

it's all here http://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/e_lep0.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 04:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not enough to prove your assertion of "first" or even "nearly simultaneously." It's close, though, and worth exploring. Acroterion (talk) 04:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I have produced two excellent sources. Plenty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 04:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

You've produced a couple of sources that establish that Lepine produced a vaccine in the 1950s that was used in France. They don't support your assertion of precedence and they don't provide much detail. Acroterion (talk) 12:33, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

The two sources provide all the dates and details. Note also that Lepine was April 4, Salk was April 12.

Yes we need better secondary sources before we add this to the lead. Agree with User:Acroterion Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:12, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

These are already excellent and detailed sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

They're a beginning. They're not at all detailed. You're making progress, you've found something interesting, but the encyclopedia is based on a firmer foundation than that, and I'm certain there's material out there that can be used. I suspect there are substantial discussions in book-length sources on these issues. We're asking you to help the encyclopedia by finding detailed sources on a par with those that document Salk and Sabin. Acroterion (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Book Source, several million doses came into use. https://books.google.com/books?id=iKidtL80imMC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=pierre+lepine+polio&source=bl&ots=yLfOrmqZQ-&sig=Jb8FAVuKoWoFVmspQroxxVJPiSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX6ayShszQAhUJbSYKHVGjA_oQ6AEIUDAL#v=onepage&q=pierre%20lepine%20polio&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 18:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Please Revert to Ritchi333, because three excellent detailed sources must not be censored by Doc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Please Revert to Ritchi333

Please Revert to Ritchi333, because three excellent detailed sources must not be censored by Doc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 18:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Everyone can now study the three excellent sources, and if no justifiable objections, the sources should be reverted back into the article.

Here is a fourth source to add, the London Royal College of Physicians recognized Lepine's vaccine. http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june282011/anti-poliomyelitis-rb.php

Some people don't like the truth, but Salk was not the first with a polio vaccine, it was the French, and the French vaccine was safe, unlike the Salk vaccine which stupidly injected people with the disease.

Can you quote the text you feel supports your position from this source.[3]

The source recognizes the London Times article where the source says the following:

FRANCE The Pasteur Institute stated that an anti-poliomyelitis vaccine, developed by Professor Pierre Lepine would soon be produced in large quantities. (Times, London, April 4, 1955).

Looking at it the Times says "Professor Pierre Lepine would soon be produced in large quantities."

Salk "April 12th. 1955, for it was on this day that the eagerly awaited report on the 1954 tests of the vaccine was issued"Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

This ref says the Salk vaccine came into use in 1955[4] While Lepine developed a vaccine the same year I am not seeing when use began of that vaccine.

This book says "By 1956, Lepine was ready with a tested polio vaccine"[5] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:54, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I can't tell you the exact date Lepine had it in mass production, but what difference does that make. The essential point is that the London Times announced Lepine's discovery of April 4 which is 8 days ahead of Salk's discovery of April 12, and that is all that matters here.

No the London Times says "soon" not currently. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

London Times announced Lepine's first discovery on April 4, ahead of Salk on April 12. So the Times says Lepine had a vaccine FIRST. The exact date when Lepine began mass production is irrelevant. The French had it FIRST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.201.179.7 (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

What matter most is when something first becomes avaliable for medical use by the general public.

There is an account of how Salk Vaccine was made in 1954 per "AN interesting account of how the Salk vaccine is made appeared in Time (March 29, l954)." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Vaccines are developed, mass produced and tested; they are not "discovered." In any case, there is a big difference between developing what may be a successful vaccine and being declared such: The field trial set up to test the Salk vaccine was, according to O'Neill, "the most elaborate program of its kind in history, involving 20,000 physicians and public health officers, 64,000 school personnel, and 220,000 volunteers." Over 1,800,000 school children took part in the trial...news of the vaccine's success was made public on April 12, 1955. Simply based on those facts alone, Salk's vaccine was developed when it became ready for testing, years earlier. --Light show (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

That is untrue. Vaccines are discovered, and later tests determine the efficacy.

I have re-protected the article, this time for two weeks. I cannot give any comment on the content, as I believe medical articles should only be touched by those with proper knowledge and experience, and therefore the protection is not designed to favour any side of the debate. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:26, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

This is a disagreement over the discussion of the history of medicine rather than the medicine itself. Appreciate the protection. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Lepine's vaccine was discovered first, according to published press releases. Furthermore, Lepine's vaccine not only worked, it was safe, while Salk's vaccine discovery was unsafe and caused polio in many children who were injected with it. What matters is the first safe vaccine. So Lepine was FIRST and should not be censored by Wikipedia.

Well, then that would be Salk, since his killed-virus vaccine was first and was safe. Salk used a killed vaccine, while Sabin's was a live vaccine. The Cutter incident involved accidental introduction of live virus into Salk vaccine, and there was (largely unfounded) skepticism about the Sabin vaccine. Salk's vaccine was widely recognized as safe from the beginning. You're really harming your credibility with this kind of assertion.

To reiterate: Lepine deserves mention, but he wasn't first, and his vaccine was not nearly as widely used as Salk's or Sabins. Acroterion (talk) 03:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I further note that the Polio Hall of Fame omits Lepine - he is not represented among the four Europeans there. That may unfair, but it is indicative of his standing in the polio research community. If he really was as you claim, I would expect him to have been included. Acroterion (talk) 03:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Salk's vaccine was not safe. The Cutter incident link says all five companies trying Salk's 1955 vaccine had difficulty completely inactivating the virus.

It is time now to give proper mention of Lepine in Wikipedia's polio vaccine article, and restore Ritchie333 of November 29. The following link from the Pasteur Institute equally credits Lepine and Salk: http://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/e_lep0.html

Please stop making hyperbolic claims. You first insisted Salk was not first, then you introduced the "safe" argument when that failed. Reliable sources call Salk's vaccine safe, and it was regarded as safer (but not necessarily more efficacious) than the Sabin vaccine. You are interpreting the production issues as evidence that the Salk vaccine was unsafe: I do not see such a specific interpretation in published scholarship, rather the opposite. You are attempting a synthesis in so doing. Nobody here has disputed that Lepine was involved in early polio research or that he developed one of the early vaccines. Wikipedia gives credence to views in accordance with their coverage in major publications and scholarship. That consensus credits Salk and Sabin with primacy in the vaccine field. You have provided sources that give reason to mention Lepine, but they do not outweigh published scholarship on this subject. If he's obscure (and it's clear that he is), then he can't get the same level of credit here. Acroterion (talk) 04:20, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The bio in the link states: mass vaccination campaign in France against poliomyelitis, using Lépine's vaccine (French mandatory childhood vaccine program, 1964) lead to nearly complete eradication of the infant paralysis in France. Can you give some cites about all that; what campaign, when did it begin and end, when and how were tests done? If it eradicated polio in France, that should be newsworthy, since almost all stories about polio eradication make the news. --Light show (talk) 04:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

That quote is from the Pasteur Institute, there is no better source. The source must be included in Wikipedia's article. http://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/e_lep0.html

Just so, such material would be productive and informative instead of arguing against sourcing that Lepine did something nobody else has credited him with doing. Eradication of polio in France using the Lepine vaccine should be sourcable and worthy of mention, rather than trying to force credit for some definition of "first" against sourcing. Acroterion (talk) 04:30, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Here is the Source, the Pasteur Institute http://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/e_lep0.html

Lepine was FIRST according to mainstream press, the London Times article of April 4, 1955, which is 8 days before Salk's famous date of April 12. The London Times source must be included in Wikipedia.

We need modern high quality sources that make that claim. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

OK so how do you propose to write Lepine into Wikipedia's article? Let's do it now. I like the November 29 version of Ritchie333. Let's revert it to Ritchie333.

We can say in the body "Pierre Lépine at the Pasteur Institute in Paris nearly simultaneously announced an effective polio vaccine." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

OK that's good, but it belongs in the Intro, the same way that the November 29 version of Ritchie333 has it.

I disagree. You can try a WP:RfC Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

We need actual and neutral sources for something related to a major medical advance. The Pasteur Institute, which provided a few sketchy facts, was his primary employer during his career. The Times is only a date with nothing more. So all we really have for this is the Pasteur statement: mass vaccination campaign in France against poliomyelitis, using Lépine's vaccine (French mandatory childhood vaccine program, 1964) lead to nearly complete eradication of the infant paralysis in France. If that's all there is I'd say further sourcing is required in an encyclopedia. --Light show (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

How much clearer could the Pasteur Institute have stated it !!! It belongs in Wikipedia, right in the Introduction.

OK Now, who is going to add Lépine to the Wikipedia article ? Let's do it now.

Mass production of Salk vaccine: Leone Farrell

A recent newspaper article Time to finish the job of eradicating polio (Paul Martin, The Globe and Mail, 27 April 2017) by a former Canadian prime minister says that the method of large-scale vaccine production for Salk's testing was developed by biochemist Leone Farrell in Toronto. His claim is supported by this page on Leone Norwood Farrell from Post-Polio Health International. I think it would be appropriate to mention Farrell's role in the history section for the period 1950-55. Dirac66 (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

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Thousands caught polio from Salk's vaccine

Salk's vaccine caused thousands of children to contract polio from the injections, This belongs in the Wikipedia article. Where shall we put it ? Early production problems with Salk vaccine had tragic results.