Talk:John Adams/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Jr

--- No 'Jr'

SNUGGUMS Look at the plethora of sources here, no one says Junior (it appears at most like a fringe pedantic exercise, perhaps anachronism) See eg.,

• John Adams: A Resource Guide at the Library of Congress
• John Adams at the White House
• The John Adams Library at the Boston Public Library
• American President: John Adams (1735–1826) at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia
• John Adams Papers at the Avalon Project
• "Life Portrait of John Adams", from C-SPAN's American Presidents: Life Portraits, March 22, 1999
• Encylopedia Britannica
• Massachusetts Historical Society [appended to keep list together with this edit Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2016 (UTC)]
• Adams National Historical Park [added -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:45, 17 June 2016 (UTC)]
• Adams, Charles Francis, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, with a Life [of John Adams]. Vol. 1. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1850-56. pp. 12-13 (added - Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2016 (UTC))

The single source you cite is odd in many ways but it simply does not stand up. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:35, 17 June 2016 (UTC) SNUGGUMS fixing ping. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

It might not have been the single greatest reference, but it wasn't exactly a bad one. I should also note the following:

1. Other sources such as the Biographical Encyclopaedia of Massachusetts of the Nineteenth Century and The Early Republic and Antebellum America: An Encyclopedia of Social, Political, Cultural, and Economic History note he was such and can be used in place
2. Just because a reference doesn't mention a suffix doesn't always make it non-existent, especially given the next point.....
3. The fact that the President's father was John Sr implies he was Jr when they had the exact same full name. However, son John Quincy Adams is not John III since father and grandfather didn't have the "Quincy" middle name
4. The use of suffixes isn't at all "fringe", "pedantic", or an "anachronism". They've been used for countless years, longer than I can keep track of. You can argue that certain sources are fringe (as a general statement), but not the overall concept of generational suffixes.

I don't deny that the links you gave don't use it, but there are quality works that do, and it would by all means be accurate to use the suffix for him. Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

As we are not talking about the use of all "Jr." most your points are decidedly irrelevant and non responsive. It is clearly fringe or minority or undue and oddly pedantic, probably anachronism, and unnecessary, here, in this article. (BTW: Anachronism does not mean, as you seem to argue, 'has not been around for a long time', it means, a later fashion is projected into a past time period). Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary, giving someone's full name isn't any of those things except maybe minority for not all works taking entire name into account, though even that isn't a good enough reason to ignore and leave it out. It's also not like I'm just spewing out bad refs or unsupported claims. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:00, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

No. Noted historian, Joseph Ellis, who wrote an encyclopedia article; C. James Taylor, the director of the Adams Library, who wrote an encyclopedia article; the Mass Historical Society, etc. etc, etc., show otherwise. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Again, just because something isn't specifically stated doesn't always equate to not existing, especially when there are in fact credible works that mention such detail as I linked above. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's not even used in the first mention in the two sources you cite - so again unneeded, undue, fringey or minority, oddly pedantic, and probably anachronism. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:23, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

You are highly mistaken. By that logic, Herbert Hoover's middle name "Clark" as an example shouldn't be used just because a biography on him doesn't use it in the title or opening sentence and only does so in subsequent sentences. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

No, by this logic, we follow the weight of sources. The mistake is yours. When has Jr become a middle name -- it is rather a made-up appendage, to John Adams, himself. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Not made up at all. Weight of sources doesn't affect legal identity. Don't confuse it with article title or what a subject is commonly known as. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:52, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Legal identity? So, now it's original legal research that's being foisted upon us. Sorry, we don't do that. 17:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

We both know it's not original research when there are works supporting my assertion of his full name (which is what I was referring to). Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

No. It is entirely your legal opinion no-one else's -- it is textbook original research for which you have no legal source to support you and even the very few sources you have brought don't support making such a legal claim for John Adams. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

The way I see this matter is the following:

• Is this person referred to in their lifetime as a "Junior".
• Is this person referred to in multiple reliable sources as a "Junior".
• Most genealogical & historical research that I have seen - when referring to persons with the same name use birth year/death year to delineate the different personages. Take a look at all the different "John Washington" Wikipedia articles. This also works for different family-members with the same name (family names, mostly of men, but also of women, get recycled between generations and sometimes within the same generation, especially in 17th-19th Century of American history).
• The word "Junior" could be seen to only be applicable during the lifetimes of both people. Once the "Sr" dies, the "Jr" appellation is technically no longer valid, because then what is the person who was known as a "Jr" then has a child they give the same name to... The person was was a "Jr" technically becomes a "Sr" all over again.
• The author of the AmericanHistory Central "John Adams "article is Randal Rust, the company President of R.Squared Communications (a publisher of various online encyclopedias).
• Heh, and to now throw a big money-wrench into the works there's John Adams Sr....

I personally do not think delineating the different people as "Sr" and "Jr" is appropriate unless contemporaneous sources and historical references overwhelmingly refer to the two different persons as such, for instance Franklin Delano Roosevelt & Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jr.. In the monkey-wrench example I mentioned above, the person with more notability is regarded as [Their name], while the person with less notability is given some kind of variation to show the difference [Their name Sr] or [Their name birthyear-deathyear]. Shearonink (talk) 19:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

PS - Perhaps Rust could be contacted to ask for his opinion as to why he refers to the US President as a Jr. Did he cite any sources for the moniker? Shearonink (talk) 19:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

In the sources linked, John Adams father is occasionally referred as "Deacon" or "the elder". John Adams signed one of the most famous legal documents in the world as John Adams (no Jr.), and his own grandson Charles Francis Adams, in his academic biography did not call the president, Jr., He called him John Adams, as do the great weight of sources. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

(Shaking head in disappointment) Sr and Jr (as well as III, IV, etc.) apply to people whether dead or alive when they have the entire same full name as a parent (or other relative when namesake relative is someone like a grandfather or uncle). It would otherwise defeat the purpose of suffixes (i.e. Charles Francis Adams and his namesake son, grandson, and great-grandson wouldn't have respectively been Sr, Jr, III, and IV). I know this from personal experience since I have relatives who were named for their fathers and their suffixes remained after their fathers died. Anyway, I'm not denying that most texts just say "John Adams", but you can't just outright dismiss the quality references that do mention a suffix since leaving it out altogether would incorrectly imply he was the original of his name when in fact that was his father. It most certainly IS NOT original research to call a man Jr by any reasonable measure when I provide something saying he was such. Let's not kid ourselves. If you feel the sources aren't credible, that's one thing, though I seriously doubt you could convince anyone that either of the ones linked aren't viable. You also can't simply ignore the fact that just because a detail isn't specifically noted in a work doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, and this particularly applies when there are other credible works that do mention it. Weight isn't the issue here. The only possible issue would be verifiablility, and the suffix most certainly is verifiable. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:54, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for more of your original personal experience but decidedly not relevant, and you are wrong again, according to Verifiability policy, choices for articles are not made just because a few sources exist and accord with your personal predilection - as it's not supported by the number and most excellent sources, including himself, and his grandson, and multiple modern encyclopedic biographical treatments - it is simply unneeded and does not have sufficient weight. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

You very well know my comment was in accordance with verifiablility policy; falsely accusing me of making things up like that when I provide supporting materials is baseless and beyond ridiculous. The links I gave are very much encyclopedic as well. Please stop being so dismissive of my points and pretending like my refs aren't enough to back something up. I also am not doing anything based on personal predilection, only based on what I have seen in other works. It's not like I'm providing bad sources or anything. As I'm sure you know (even if you won't admit it), a person's full name very much does carry enough weight for their own article and most definitely is worth including when reliably sourced (which it is), even if only a small amount of good works mention it. Quantity doesn't undermine quality. My sources are by all means encyclopedic, and it's not like they're contradicting other works; only providing additional detail. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, sorry, you did make-up the legal name thing or have shown no source that says that was his legal name. I have acknowledged your few sources, and it's because they are few that they lack weight. His full-name, as he writes, himself, is John Adams, as most the sources agree, including his own grandson in his seminal 1850 biography. As for Verifiability policy, it is precisely as I said, just because there is a source or two does not mean it goes in, that's pretty much a direct quote from Verifiability policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm just wondering what the average person, who, after all, is the readership we are crafting this article for, if you walked up to them and said "Who was John Adams Jr?" what would they say? And what is the most common search term for the person this article is about? In my opinion, the only Wikipedia listing that "John Adams Jr" or "John Adams II" would qualify for is a re-direct from that name to this article.

As long as we're bringing in some personal experience, I have relatives who during their fathers' lifetimes were known as [Name] Jr and the father was known as {Name] Sr but when the father died the Jr moniker was dropped in the sons' personal common usage.

Mr. Rust publishes a phone # and I am sure he has an email as well. I would suggest he be contacted as to his source/s or reasons for referring to President Adams as "Jr". Shearonink (talk) 01:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

"II" is misleading in this case as that would imply that the original namesake of a relative was someone other than the father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. "John Adams Jr" would definitely be a valid redirect for this article. We should keep in mind though that common usage isn't always a person's full name (i.e. Jimmy Carter is most commonly used to refer to the 39th president while his full name is James Earl Carter Jr). William Howard Taft on the other hand is full name AND most common usage. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

During President John Adams' lifetime he apparently referred to his grandson John as "John Adams Jr", see [1]. John Quincy Adams also referred to his son John as "John Adams Jr" see [2]. In 1829 The Journal of the House of Representatives of the United States, Volume 20, Issue 2 refers to John Quincy Adam's son as "John Adams Jr" see [3]. John Quincy Adams' son John also signed his name as being "John Adams Jr", see [4].
I don't think that anyone is disputing that some sources(see Genealogies of Connecticut Families, Notable Kin: An Anthology of Columns First Published in the Nehgs Nexus, 1986-1995 use "John Adams Jr." to distinguish President John Adams from his less-famous farmer father. I think that the majority of sources refer to the farmer as "John Adams Sr" (even if they don't use "Jr" for the Presidential son). It is also true that the preponderance of sources refer to the President as "John Adams" without any additional modifications (either Jr or II) after his name, see whitehouse.gov, Biography.Com, University of Virginia's Miller Center and so on.
Snuggums, I am not sure what you want in this case, so far the consensus seems to be for the name in the lede to remain as John Adams with possibly some Name-only re-directs that would then point to this article. I would suggest you open an RfC to gain a consensus from a broader range of your fellow editors if you wish as I feel at this point the discussion isn't progressing. Shearonink (talk) 05:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Hmm..... there actually doesn't seem to be a clear consensus for either inclusion or omission at the moment. The only person I've really seen oppose its use is Alan. RFC isn't a good idea since that'll just make things bigger than they need to be. What I cannot fathom is any good reason why someone's full name wouldn't be deemed worth including. I'm fine with having a redirect and created one myself. Thank you in any case for at least acknowledging that the President has been credibly referred to with a suffix, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, I fundamentally don't agree that it is his full name, and I have stated above why that is so. John Adams did not use it (which is what I was referring to when I earlier said it appears a made-up appendage as to him - I was not suggesting that you made it up) and from a review of all the sources, it appears solely to be a historically later convention adopted after his death by some minority to in short-form, as Sheronick put it, "distinguish President John Adams from his less-famous farmer father", some even using the form "John Adams (Jr.)" with Jr in parenthesis (and even for the minority, it generally appears to be used only once, at his birth). Most others, including his grandson biographer, have entirely different ways of distinguishing, including, "Deacon" or "the elder". I think it is misleading to suggest that it was his actual name (legal, or full) but sure it's an alternative, so, if those need to be mentioned at all, which I don't think they (John Adams Jr.; John Adams (Jr.)) do, they could be mentioned as lesser-alternatives in the birth section. But I remain opposed to it in the lead. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2016

BeatItFan5 (talk) 02:05, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

No change requested, so no change made. —C.Fred (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Link style

Per MOS:LINK, links should not be placed next to each other in such a way that they appear to be a single link, and the more specific link should be chosen - thus, [[List of Presidents of the United States|2nd President of the United States]] is more appropriate than [[List of Presidents of the United States|2nd]] [[President of the United States]]. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:02, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Alma mater

The article says his Alma Marta was Harvard University. It was Harvard College. Harvard did not become a university until around 1900.

Leland M. Cole, Harvard 57 e-mail lcole@ceiworld.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:644:101:368B:A0B0:AD5B:BC20:874 (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Diplomat and statesman

Someone aiming for brevity thought "statesman" and "diplomat" were synonyms. They aren't. Unfortunately, I accidentally hit "Enter" before completing my edit summary. I think it's important to note in the lead he was a lawyer, diplomat, and statesman.
Also, I took the liberty of removing a trivial greeting (spam) from this talk page just now. YoPienso (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

"statesman" for a career politician like Adams? Why do we keep using this annoying term? Dimadick (talk) 12:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Better question would be why do sources use it [5] -- at least here, he did actually create one state (constitution) and was a major figure in creating another (the United States), etc. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:56, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2016

Since the portrait of Adams by John Trumbull appears twice in this article, I request this portrait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1800#/media/File:US_Navy_031029-N-6236G-001_A_painting_of_President_John_Adams_(1735-1826),_2nd_president_of_the_United_States,_by_Asher_B._Durand_(1767-1845)-crop.jpg be substituted in place one of the Trumbull portraits. 147.126.10.21 (talk) 17:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: The main refbox portrait is the official portrait, the one further down shows it as a Trumball painting, far more popular and noteworthy for inclusion than the one you requested. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 20:34, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2016

my nami is cokami and i wish to change this aritcle for the better so that everyone knows that he was the baby setter of thew main goodings beer in teh manyy world please anfd gracieass--Lsjfsjafl (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Lsjfsjafl (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC).

Last Words

The article does say that his last words "included" something like "Thomas Jefferson survives," and thus it is not saying they were his very last words. Point I'm trying to make is that McCullough and other biographers state that his actual final words (to a grandson or granddaughter, iirc) were something like "Help me, child, help me." Should they be mentioned in that section? Sir Rhosis (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2017

Note: The US genealogy lineage for US president John Adams is his great grandmother Ruth ALDEN BASS, daughter of John ALDEN/Priscilla MULLINS?MULLENS. Lifesscribe1 (talk) 11:45, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. – Nihlus (talk) 11:52, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Sections disappearing

Can somebody check out my last edits and see what's been happening to the article? I try to add content but somehow it just gets rid of other stuff. There's no record of it in the edit history, and when I click the [edit] button everything seems fine. It's very strange. Display name 99 (talk) 13:13, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

scholarly book sources

http://cityreaders.nysoclib.org/Detail/objects/1493 http://cityreaders.nysoclib.org/Detail/objects/1187 http://cityreaders.nysoclib.org/Detail/objects/10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wgtn44 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Records

Srich32977, I take issue with your recent revert and your explanation for it. Per the policy you invoked in your edit summary, calculations may be included in part if they are "a meaningful reflection of the sources." Well there are no sources, so that part's out. I also object to your argument that this counts as "noteworthy info." Really? Are a significant amount of being reading this article going to give the slightest darn in the world about January 10, 2000, January 8, 1853, or so on? I think not. Also, I like how the author decided to add that not only did Adams get various records, but that he won them all by surpassing George Washington. Well, before Adams, Washington was the only president to ever serve, so therefore he must have passed him in order to get the records! Wow, that is some deep stuff right there. Who knew? Plus, the entire paragraph is one gigantic run-on sentence. In short, the person who added this does not know how to write. The individual suffers from a strange addiction to obscure and precise dates that nobody cares about, compounded by an unexplained revulsion towards periods. If that weren't enough, the author could not be bothered to cite a single source. It also doesn't help that Adams does not hold a single one of these records anymore.

I could possibly find a source for the part about him having the longest lifespan until Reagan, first because it seems to be the most important out of all the things in the list and second because it lasted longer than many of the others. I could include that information somewhere else. However, the rest of it is poorly constructed and, in my firm opinion, should go. I don't intend to appear disrespectful. I just think that this whole paragraph is so terribly put together that it shouldn't be in the article, and am doing my best to convey that point. Display name 99 (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't know what your problem is if you want sources i can add them if you want it written better that can be done too the interesting fact is that he held those records for so long, over 100 years for each of them and that hes the only one to hold all those records, even now bush senior only holds 3 of those records as he isn't the longest lived vice president yet. in cases like this take it to the talk page before deleting it as per WP:DONTREVERT. עם ישראל חי 16:03, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Add some reliable sources, properly formatted, and overhaul the writing style. Remove any mention of him surpassing George Washington. Saying that he held a record from his inauguration is also unnecessary because there was no vice president before him. Fix these problems, and I will have no further objections to the material's inclusion. I don't think that the fact that he used to hold the record for longest-married vice president until another guy broke it over 60 years ago is important enough to mention, but I'm willing to compromise on it so long as you can come up with a good citation. Display name 99 (talk) 17:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Moved here:

"===Records=== John Adams held the record for longest-lived president for 198 years, 51 days from when he surpassed George Washington's lifespan on August 22, 1803 until Ronald Reagan surpassed his lifespan on October 12, 2001. He held the record for longest-lived vice president for 125 years, 273 days from his inauguration on April 21, 1789 until Levi Morton surpassed his lifespan on January 19, 1915. He held the record for longest-married president for 194 years, 99 days from when he surpassed George Washington's length of marriage on October 3, 1805 until George H.W. Bush surpassed his length of marriage on January 10, 2000. And he held the record for longest-married vice president for 163 years, 262 days from his inauguration on April 21, 1789 until Charles G. Dawes surpassed his length of marriage on January 8, 1953."

We need sources to see, if this is useful, at all. It's not interestingly written, it's given no meaning, and it's presented as trivia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:16, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Grammar error in the section "The Election of 1800"

The first sentence of the section "The Election of 1800" contains a rather apparent grammatical mistake. Currently, it reads "With the Federalist Party was deeply split over his negotiations with France, and the opposition Democratic–Republicans enraged over the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the expansion of the military, Adams faced a daunting reelection campaign in 1800." The word "was" should be removed so the sentence reads "With the Federalist Party deeply split over his negotiations with France, and the opposition Democratic–Republicans enraged over the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the expansion of the military, Adams faced a daunting reelection campaign in 1800."

--ZackBPro (talk) 07:14, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing this out. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 07:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Ancestry Section moved per GA review

The section below has been moved per GA review: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoppyh (talk • contribs) 21:29, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

My Grandfather

Did you know John Adams is my great great grandfather. In fact my grandmother researched this on https://www.ancestry.com/https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Adams&action=edit&section=new#https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Adams&action=edit&section=new#https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Adams&action=edit&section=new# — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.29.85.43 (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2018

Rileyrussell72 (talk) 16:28, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shearonink (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Place of birth

We need to use the name of the town, city, province, country etc. when the person was born. The present-day name is irrelevant. Julius Caesar was born in Rome, not Italy etc. See WP:HISTORICALNAME. GiantSnowman 13:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I see this was reverted, and that seems fine. An easter-egg link seems too confusing. (At any rate, here, it's more as if Julius was born in the Suburra, in a part of the Suburra, that later in his life became known as Forum Septemrional, while the Suburra didn't move and still exists but if you went to find his house you would go near but not the Suburra today. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

We should explain that in the prose, not the infobox. GiantSnowman 19:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with you for the reasons given here and in the recent edit summaries. Let's keep Quincy in parentheses in the infobox. YoPienso (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, sorry but I didn't see your post here until you left a message on my talk page. The problem with the example is that nobody would actually think that Caesar was born in Italy because everybody knows that there was no such thing as the country of Italy back then. But not everybody knows that part of what was once Braintree is now Quincy. There is still a place called Braintree and to list that as Adams's birthplace would naturally lead the uninformed reader to believe that this was where Adams was born, which is simply not true. Also, I'm not sure you clicked on the link in the Caesar article. It takes you to "Rome," the city, a place which existed then and still exists now. There can be no ambiguity on that matter. Not an effective example. Display name 99 (talk) 21:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and, again, that kind of explanation should be present in the prose, not the infobox. GiantSnowman 07:35, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

But anyone who looked at the infobox before looking at the prose (as most probably do) would be likely to come away rather confused and perhaps even with the wrong impression. That's never good. Display name 99 (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, I agree with Display name 99 and disagree with GiantSnowman. I have just boldly made a compromise edit in the infobox. How do you like it? YoPienso (talk) 18:25, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Display name 99 - I disagree. I was more confused by seeing that in the infobox!

Yopienso - not ideal for me but certainly better than it was. GiantSnowman 18:36, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Jefferson in the lead

I wasn't aware there was an effort to keep Jefferson out of the lead. Regarding this edit, should we remove both Abigail and TJ? It seems to me we have to include both or neither, since those were the two most famous, and I think equally famous, of Adams' correspondents. What's the reason to keep TJ out of the Adams lead and vice versa? Their friendship in their old age is legendary. Also, the lead is supposed to summarize the body, where there's a whole subsection on their correspondence. YoPienso (talk) 21:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Huh? You inserted Jefferson correspondence to the very first paragraph, and that was left, where you put it, but there is certainly no need to have the correspondence twice in the lead. There is also no need for Jefferson five times in this lead, twice is fine (we should also get rid of the death day trivia from the lead). Adams is only once in the lead of the Jefferson article. As for Abigail, it's hard to imagine a person more integral to John Adams' life.Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, sorry--I missed it in the last paragraph of the lead. I'd be happy to restore that sentence (He eventually resumed his friendship with Jefferson upon the latter's own retirement by initiating a correspondence which lasted 14 years.) and remove my addition to the first paragraph. YoPienso (talk) 01:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

That would be fine. Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done That last paragraph isn't real smooth. I tried improving it but am not satisfied. If you don't want TJ mentioned often in the lead--though I still don't understand why not--you could leave out his death. It almost sounds like Tom and Martha established the Adams family. Could we say John and Abigail? YoPienso (talk) 09:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Editwar?

Displayname99 apparently has a problem with well-established history. Whatever his hero Ferling says, Adams had waged a lengthy campaign to convince the Dutch government to recognize the US as an independent state and to accept himself as its ambassador. That he was ill during part of this time is immaterial. I protest against the removal of the previously existing text and to the removal of my edit to restore this, with an additional reference. Apparently, the fact that this page is semi-protected is to no avail. What does the "guardian" do to remedy this outrage?--Ereunetes (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Calling Ferling my "hero" is entirely derogatory and inappropriate. According to you, if you reference what a reliable source says, that makes the author your "hero." That's entirely untrue. It is simply following basic Wikipedia guidelines about verifying content. You should know better. Ferling a reputable scholar and the author of one of the most notable biographies on Adams. I shouldn't have to explain this, but we must go by what is in the most reputable and well-established sources. Ferling's 1992 biography is among the best out there. About the only way that this should be reconsidered is if you can find something in Smith 1962 or McCullough 2001 (since these are the other two most authoritative biographies) which contradicts Ferling's claim. Adams did wage a lengthy campaign, but it was unsuccessful. The Dutch refused to even meet him for more than 6 months after his arrival. After that, he was so for a time so debilitated that he could not even write a letter. I'm not sure what you mean by use of the word "guardian." Display name 99 (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

OK. I consulted by copy of McCullough 2001 (the only Adams biography that I have thus far read cover to cover), and it appears that during the winter, Adams did appeal to both the Dutch Government and the people to have the U.S. recognized. I will change the article accordingly. A better strategy would have been for you to point this out to me originally instead of going on a rant. Display name 99 (talk) 14:04, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

For someone who admittedly has read only one Adams biography biography cover to cover, I think you are a bit high-handed in making all these edits (the one I objected to is just one of many). In any case, you apparently don't know the first thing about Dutch history. I admit I haven't read Ferling, but I do know a bit about Dutch history and I know that Adams took an active part in the campaign of the Patriots against the regime of the stadtholder (not a friend of the American "rebels", to put it mildly), of which the struggle for American recognition was a not-insignificant part. There is a report by Adams to the then Foreign Secretary Robert Livingstone of 4 September 1782 in which he mentions most of his Dutch contacts and the contributions they made to the "good cause". But you should know that, as an "Adams expert". In any case, the paragraph you deleted (plus the reference I added to it from the book by Simon Schama) adequately gave the necessary information. No need "to change the article accordingly" as you put it; just restore the passage. And please hurry, because two days have elapsed already since you made your promise. I leave it to others to scrutinize the other edits you have made. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other objections in view of your apparently shaky grasp of the material.--Ereunetes (talk) 22:01, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

too long??

In my view the two main reasons Adams deserves a long article are his work for independence and his establishing moderate conservative policies (in opposition to Hamilton to the right & Jefferson to the left)--esp peace with France. I suggest: Cut the diplomacy instead--or spin that off into a new article on the "Diplomacy of John Adams". Also sharply cut the VP section by 2/3 Rjensen (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I was going to suggest the diplomacy section as well. The Conceptions of Constitutional Government section is essential, but I'm confused by this Adams was thought to have overlooked this evolution and revealed his continued attachment to the older version of politics. because the preceding paragraph also says Adams's Defence is described as an articulation of the classical republican theory of mixed government. - using the word republican here makes it even more confusing - I studied this in school and I would still be hard pressed to explain how it is related to federalism - I think what it is driving at may be something along these lines [6] Seraphim System ^(talk) 20:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Display name 99: your message to me in your edit summary to "go way" is bizarre, given I am a top ten editor of this article [7], and you can only be displaying WP:OWNERSHIP in your message, so I won't be going away. At any rate, OK as to removal of Fries there, yes I knew it had another section but the source I used discussed it in relation to the 'Alien and Sedition Act'.[8] As to the Lyon material, your restoring that trim still does not make sense, as it is one detail of one prosecution which Adams did not prosecute, which the reader can find all about elsewhere in the Act link. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:14, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The sources I've encountered state that Fries's Rebellion was provoked not by the A&S Acts but by the heavy taxes enacted to fund the military buildup. The Lyon example gives more context to the energization and unification of the Republican Party over the acts. Lyon was seen as a martyr and this helped Jefferson win. It's only 96 characters-not very long. As for the bit about ownership, I was a bit irritated by your unprovoked attack on me here which began the argument on the FA review page. Of course, I can't force you off the article nor will I try any further, but it does seem odd that you would choose to stick around after instigating an ad hominem dispute with the FA nominator before giving up on the review. Display name 99 (talk) 15:25, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I did not attack you, I disagreed with what you said about the Enlightenment and your blanket statement about biographies you have not read to be less than credible. I am sorry, you felt attacked, and I'll take it that I could have said it a better way. Back to to Lyons, as I already conceded on Fries, Lyons still is tangential detail as to Adams. Yes the DemRep were furious for a whole host of reasons, but we already say that explicitly and why (including multiple prosecutions), and don't need to go into it more about it, and not as to one prosecution) The Republican papers were "martyrized", too. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:37, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I accept your apology and acknowledge that my statement about you not having read any biographies either was a bit too presumptuous. I decided to shorten the discussion on Lyon by copyediting. Yes, Republican papers were martyrized. See the discussion on James Callender in the section on the 1800 election. Display name 99 (talk) 15:43, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Great, although I still think the Lyons sentence should be dropped. I edit conflicted explaining about reviews: As to the review, I don't do a review of articles I edit significantly, it seems a conflict of interest. I do comment in response to reviews of articles I edit significantly, as I have there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2018 (UTC)