Talk:Cleopatra

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2018

rome was buildt in 1977 Cleopatra made it. 2601:205:C000:8462:C965:229C:4791:CF76 (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

er, actually no IdreamofJeanie (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Spoken Article

Hi there, I'm looking at making a Spoken version of the Cleopatra article. I just wanted to check and see if anyone already has something in progress? It's a long article so I don't want to duplicate efforts. Cheers, Theayeaye (talk) 03:12, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Theayeaye: I've never heard anyone suggest this here and I've been closely monitoring the talk page since at least the beginning of 2018 (when I started working on lifting the article to Featured status). Perhaps you should wait a few days, but if no one chimes in, I think it would be great for you to pursue making a spoken audio version of the article. I would thoroughly enjoy hearing it! All the best, Pericles of Athens^Talk 05:07, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

No such thing as oratorix or skill or calm or attracx or not, say/can say any nmw and any be perfx

Ptolemy "Macedonian" not "Macedonian Greek"

Title says it all, same way we don't write "Athenian Greek", and can lead to confusion nowadays due to the country of Macedonia and Greece citizens being called 'Macedonians' and 'Greeks' Macedonia (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

During the Hellenistic Era, Macedonians were recognised as Greek; the phrase "Macedonian Greeks" is there precisely to avoid any confusion. Go in the modern Macedonia pages if you are concerned about current Macedonia and stop vandalising featured articles. Jesus, what is it with Macedonia these days? T8612 (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand how I'm "vandalising featured articles" given that this qualifier is not required and absolutely makes no sense? Macedonia (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

You basically came in here like a wrecking ball, without any prior discussion here, trying desperately to remove the word "Greek" from the phrase "Macedonian Greek", even though this has been the stable version of the article for many months and indeed is the version of the article accepted by the consensus of the Featured article nomination process. More than that, the language of the lead is a complete reflection of the "Ancestry" section, where I have cited dozens of sources that describe Cleopatra not only as a Macedonian but as a Macedonian Greek, and others that simply state Greek in many cases. Ironically, one of the various sources you tried to cite in the lead (within an obnoxious chain of five different citations, breaking the rule we discussed in the FAC about limiting that to three per sentence) was Prudence Jones. You even included a quote from her source explicitly saying "Macedonian Greeks", which basically cuts the feet right out from under whatever silly argument you originally had. You just came her to be a WP:POINTY editor. Personally, I don't really care what your ideological or political bent is (although it's pretty obvious with your name and user page), but you can go ahead and keep that crap out of a featured article. Gee thanks! Toodaloo and ciao. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:20, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe WP:POINTY applies here as the truth is, they are Macedonian. That is fact and is something we can both agree on, yes? The issue arises whether we should include the additional qualifier "Greek". From your POV, doesn't saying that they are Macedonian automatically imply that they are Greek? When we describe someone, isn't ludicrous to say they were a "Queenslander Australian" or "Arizonan American", do we not say just "Queenslander" or "Arizonan"? From both of our POV's, to simply say "Macedonian" is correct. Macedonia (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We write what's reflected in the preponderance of reliable sources, and PericlesofAthens has provided ample rationale for the text in the article. Please move on. --Laser brain (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@Makedonija: Well I'm so very glad you've chosen a civil tone now that everyone is watching instead of telling me to "get stuffed, mate", like you did in a recent edit summary of the article. The phrase "Macedonian Greek" is used because that is the most common among academics from works that I have consulted and cited in this article, particularly those in the "Ancestry" section. More importantly, aside from the casual mentioning in the lead that her native language was Koine Greek and that her reign marked the end of the Hellenistic period, it is the only indication of her ethnicity and lineage in the entire lead section. I should also note that you tried removing "Greek" from the first paragraph of the lead while ironically citing not only Prudence Jones (2006) as I've mentioned above, but also Donald B. Redford (2000) and Kathryn A. Bard (1999) who explicitly write "Macedonian Greeks" and even Sarah B. Pomeroy (1990) who doesn't even say Macedonian but "Greek ruling class". What you're doing is misinterpreting and abusing WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, if you bothered to read them at all instead of haphazardly copying and pasting a chain of citations from the article Ptolemy I Soter and plopping them into the middle of the lead section of this article, where tons of citations are unwanted for obvious reasons per WP:LEAD and WP:SUMMARY. Ideally, a lead section should reflect the sources used in the main body of text, which is exactly what this article does. It doesn't follow the same rules as the article Macedonia (ancient kingdom) (which I also wrote) where editors and I came to a WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page about not inserting "Greek" before "ancient kingdom" due to the complexities of the early Macedonian ethnic identity. That debate, however, has no place in an article about the Ptolemies, who are universally described in academic works as being Greeks. Period. Pericles of Athens^Talk 23:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I just love the hypocrisy coming out of you, and it is sad to see that you started the incivility with your "buzz off" comment, which, you should note, has an earlier time stamp than my "get stuffed, mate" description. To have thought that you possessed the intelligence and maturity of an adult was wishful thinking on my part obviously. Articles do not belong to editors, so it is of no consequence of whether you wrote the Macedonia (ancient kingdom) article. I am simply arguing over the wording. From both our points of view, "Macedonian" is correct, is it not? From my supposed POV Macedonian Greek is not required. Do you see what I am trying to say here or will you just continue with your incivility? Macedonia (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Bravo. With this post you just squandered whatever credibility or persuasive power your argument might have had, by failing to obey Wikipedia:No personal attacks by commenting on my intelligence, maturity, or other personal attributes which have nothing to do with the article, but are certainly perfect examples of ad hominem attacks if I've ever seen them. I don't even need to go there, since it is probably enough for me to simply direct editors to your entertaining user page. It goes without saying that you will now be reported for breaking that red line of civility. I also see you have failed to understand the point about why I brought up Macedonia (ancient kingdom), which was to point out that changes to an already featured article are done by WP:CONSENSUS. Somehow you interpreted that as a statement of WP:OWNERSHIP, while conveniently ignoring both User:Laser_brain (an FAC coordinator who knows what he's talking about) and I regarding WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, which basically trumps whatever argument you're trying to make here about excising the word "Greek" from the article. The phrase "Macedonian Greek" is a direct reflection of a multitude of scholarly sources cited in this article. If you are unable or unwilling to understand that, then you are welcome to edit a blog somewhere else, preferably outside of Wikipedia. Pericles of Athens^Talk 01:27, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

And the kettle calls the pot black. You seem to not want to discuss the issue at hand, and have started and continue the incivility. I have asked you a question twice which you have refused to answer: To call Ptolemy a Macedonian is correct. This is a simple, 1 word, yes/no answer. Macedonia (talk) 01:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention as well with your personal attacks by calling me a nationalist, while you still are avoiding to answer the question... Macedonia (talk) 01:47, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

If you want my personal opinion, I would say they are Macedonian...Macedonian Greek. Guess what? My personal opinion doesn't matter. Your personal opinion doesn't matter. I'll tell you what does matter, though: WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, which is really the only thing that should be discussed, otherwise this is just turning into a WP:FORUM. News flash: this talk page is not your little private playground to express your personal opinions. I'll tell you what it is, though: it's a place where editors discuss how to improve the article with academic secondary sources. Unless you have dozens of sources on hand that explicitly and unequivocally describe the Ptolemies from Ptolemy I Soter all the way down to Caesarion as exclusively "Macedonian" and NOT "Macedonian Greeks" (i.e. explicitly stating that they were not Greek and only Macedonian), then I fail to see why we should amend the article according to your charming opinions. Guess what I have? A potent litany of academic sources that say otherwise and contradict your POV-pushing. In addition to the academic sources you cited above (sources that humorously and explicitly contradict you, nice job), I could start with Pucci (2011), Goldsworthy (2010), Roller (2010), Fletcher (2008), Burstein (2004), Grant (1972), and a number of other academic sources in this article which all use the same language and terminology: "Macedonian Greeks". You can protest, you can scream, you can flail, you can make silly demands that I answer your questions, but none of that matters. Your theatrics aren't convincing anyone. The only thing that matters are the sources, and, thankfully, they aren't on your side. Pericles of Athens^Talk 03:42, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Again missed the point entirely, to say they were Macedonian is still correct, notwithstanding cherrypicking of a few sources that say "Macedonian Greek". I have had an absolute gutful of your insults and not wishing to contribute to constructive conversation, and the double standards of this place. This conversation would've carried on very differently had I done 4 reverts (like you did, in direct violation of the 3RR), but alas, there have always been different rules for different people. That much through history hasn't changed. Macedonia (talk) 06:44, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

"Cherrypicking." "A few sources." That's rich, given how you managed to cite three out of five sources that explicitly disagreed with your chosen phrasing and slicing of the word "Greek" from the phrase "Macedonian Greek" for no really pertinent reason that I can see (although one could easily speculate as to why you've taken up this crusade). And it's not just Jones, Bard, or Redford, either, it's also Roller (2010) and Southern (2009) who deliberately choose to utilize this exact phrase when describing the Ptolemies. In fact, Southern (2009: p. 43) uses that exact phrase to directly describe Ptolemy I Soter. Both Grant (1972) and Burstein (2004) employ incredibly similar phrases to describe the Ptolemies (i.e. "Macedonian, Greek-speaking" and "Greco-Macedonian", respectively). If you don't like the fact that this article and its language is a reflection of WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, you're welcome to rant about that in your personal blog somewhere, but it certainly has no place in this article. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Alright, uninvolved user here. I've gone through Kleiner, Burstein and Grant. Can't find the actual phrase "Macedonian Greek" in any of them. They're all pretty clear about the Greek connection; Grant writes that "Cleopatra was a Greek queen". But even without referring to Ptolemy as "Macedonian Greek", the very next sentence talks about the Hellenistic period and the one after that notes that Cleopatra's first language was Koine Greek. If changing it to just "Macedonian" would obscure that the Ptolemaic dynasty was Greek then I'd be leery of change, but as is I don't think it'll have that effect. Pericles, is there anything different in the other sources you mentioned? --RaiderAspect (talk) 09:21, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, Pericles, I just read up and realized you wrote that Redford and Bard explicitly used "Macedonian Greek". They don't seem to be cited in the current version of the article, could you point me to the names of the works? --RaiderAspect (talk) 09:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@RaiderAspect: Upon inspection, it seems as though Burstein (2004: p. 64) says "Greco-Macedonian" and not the exact phrase "Macedonian Greek", although he frequently employs the phrase "Macedonian and Greek" throughout his book. Prudence Jones (2006), on the other hand, is also cited in the "Ancestry" section and for good reason, because she has this to say (p. xiii): "in the barest outline of her life, Cleopatra VII was born in 69 B.C. to Ptolemy XII Auletes and (most probably) his sister-wife Cleopatra V Tryphaena. They were members of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Macedonian Greeks, who ruled Egypt after the death of its conqueror, Alexander the Great." Duane W. Roller (2010), who is perhaps the most frequently-cited source in this entire article, explicitly states about Cleopatra's ancestry and origins (p. 15): "Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian Greek queen of Egypt, was born around the beginning of 69 B.C., descendant of a long line of Ptolemaic kings." As for Donald B. Redford, in his Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2000), he writes the following: "Cleopatra VII was born to Ptolemy XII Auletes (80–57 BCE, ruled 55–51 BCE) and Cleopatra, both parents being Macedonian Greeks." Kathryn A. Bard, in her Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (1999: p. 488), writes the following: "Ptolemaic kings were still crowned at Memphis and the city was popularly regarded as the Egyptian rival to Alexandria, founded by the Macedonian Greeks." Grant (1972: p. 3), cited in this article, says that Cleopatra came from a "Macedonian, Greek-speaking dynasty", but more than that, he says (p. 5) that "Cleopatra VII would have described herself as a Greek. Whatever the racial ingredients of her Macedonian ancestors, her language, like theirs (though they had spoken a dialect), was Greek, and so was her whole education and culture." I can muster more sources than these, but I think you probably get the point. ;) Pericles of Athens^Talk 10:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, I have cited Pat Southern (2009) in this article but simply forgot that she also wrote, on p. 43: "The Ptolemaic dynasty, of which Cleopatra was the last representative, was founded at the end of the fourth century BC. The Ptolemies were not of Egyptian extraction, but stemmed from Ptolemy Soter, a Macedonian Greek in the entourage of Alexander the Great." I think that is honestly sufficient enough to demonstrate the commonality of this phrase in academic works on the Ptolemies. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems even the Encyclopaedia Britannica (cited in our article) has contributing authors who favor the phrase "Macedonian Greek", as demonstrated in this 4 October 2018 article "Ancient Egypt" by Alan Edouard Samuel, John R. Baines, et. al.: "The Macedonian-Greek character of the monarchy was vigorously preserved." "Such links were far from able to preserve harmony between the royal houses (between 274 and 200 BCE five wars were fought with the Seleucids over possession of territory in Syria and the Levant), but they did keep the ruling houses relatively compact, interconnected, and more true to their Macedonian-Greek origins." Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: Thanks for that, the quotes from Jones, Redford and Bard are more than enough for me. Sorry to put you to so much effort, but it is appreciated. --RaiderAspect (talk) 11:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@RaiderAspect: No problem! It was my pleasure. If anything it makes me feel vindicated for using the precise terminology of the sources, even ones I didn't cite directly for this purpose, but will do so when the lock on the article is lifted. To avoid the train of citations in the lead section and this sort of confrontation in the future, I think that I will also include a lengthy clarifying footnote there in the lead, packed with citations from the aforementioned scholarly sources. Pericles of Athens^Talk 12:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Small correction: Kathryn A. Bard (1999) was the editor of the encyclopedia mentioned above, whereas the author of the encyclopedic entry on "Memphis" (pp 488–490) was David Jeffreys. I have cited both him and Janet H. Johnson, Duane W. Roller, Prudence Jones, and Pat Southern in a new footnote about the terminology used for describing the Ptolemaic dynasty as "Macedonian Greek". Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:37, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

@RaiderAspect: I went back through Kleiner (2005), which you perused, but you must have missed the instances on pp. 9, 19, 106 and 183 where she specifically used the phrase "Macedonian Greeks" to describe either the Ptolemies as a whole or just Cleopatra, even her children with the Romans Antony and Caesar. Just letting you know! I added Kleiner to the aforementioned footnote. Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:55, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. User "Makedonija" returned to Wikipedia (after more than 3 years of absence), to change "Macedonian Greek" into "Macedonian". Peculiar to say the least. I guess his user page says it all. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Gotta love the personal attack Macedonia (talk) 13:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Ancestry diagram

What do straight lines, dotted line and dashed line mean in the "Ancestry" diagram? Might it be a good idea to add some sort of legend to make it easier to understand? HaEr48 (talk) 08:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)