Talk:Armenian language

ARMENIAN LANGUAGE: RELIABLE INFORMATION

To all interested in the subject: There is plenty of reliable information available. At the moment, the article is in a rather appaling state, subject to edititing without cites nor sources and regularly the center of dispute and edit war. I've given up on watching it. IMHO it'd be advisable to request the given material and to edit the article on that basis. --tickle me 17:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion

"A similar script is used for the unrelated Georgian language."

I thought the Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion has been debunked. What is this sentence referring to? ("similar"). --Menchi 06:57, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

demographic info

I moved the demo-/ethnographic info from this page to the more appropriate Demographics of Armenia page. Ehgil 23:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am working on Assyrian/Revision at the moment. I wonder if an Armenian speaker, or someone with a decent Armenian dictionary could help me with the etymology and basic meaning of the word Ասորի, Asori. Thanks in advance. Gareth Hughes 18:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A little conflict in the sources I looked at. Asori = Assyrian or Syriac. Not sure which one is correct.

        "Asori" Refers to Assyrian.  "Sooriatsi" refers to Syrian.

Classical Armenian?

The term 'classical Armenian' is used in the text but there is no description of this among the dialects. Is this a historical, literary form of Armenian from which the modern vernacular forms differ (as in classical Chinese, classical Arabic, classical Greek etc.)? If so, is non-classical Armenian possessed of grammatical gender?

"Classical Armenian" is called "Grabar", which is only used in the Armenian Church until now. The two main dialects of modern Armenian come from "Grabar" and both dialects still use a lot of words from "Grabar". The modern dialect of Western Armenian is closer to "Grabar" than Eastern Armenian.

As far as gender, both modern dialects as well as "Grabar" do not have grammatical gender, meaning there is no "he", "she", "his", or "her" in the Armenian language.

Historical Phonology

I wonder, for instance, what the developement of PIE laryngeals in Armenian was. According to Beekes, *H2 and *H3 were preserved in initial positions when followed by */e/.

Vowels

This is what is in the article at this time: "Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, e, e, ?, o, and ow, respectively)." The order of those seems wrong, especiallyh where the schwa is. -dveej

The order seems to have been updated, but I'm still wondering about that sentence. It now reads: "Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, ə, e, ē, o, ow and u respectively)." There are eight vowels in that transcription. As the u is a later addition, does it not belong? JordeeBec 18:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The section on phonology is very, very basic compared to similar sections in other language articles. I've replaced the English-like phonetic transcriptions with IPA (based on information from http://www.omniglot.com/writing/armenian.htm - I don't actually know Armenian, please correct any mistakes!) and slapped a {{sectstub}} tag on it. Hairy Dude 17:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This and that

I've been prowling around the Armenian subjects for a few days now. The statement about being related to Phrygian is overly strong; rather, it is best to say attempts have been made to link it to Armenian, but the evidence is so scant that nothing can really be proven.

A little more can be said about historical situation.

1. Armenian has a colossal Iranian language superstratum, so much so it was earlier classed with the Iranian languages; a comparison can be made to what happened in the Maltese language, i.e., a massive relexification. It would seem the ancestral stock was fully bilingual at some point, and very close to being assimilated by Iranian. While it was earlier a part of the centum group, the relexification easily explains its position in the satem group today.
2. The Caucasian sprachbund could be emphasized a little more. Armenian has the most peculiar phonology of all extant IE languages, and this explains it.
3. Certain issues of ethnic solidarity and nationalism get into the discussion of Armenian dialects. Armenian sources tend to emphasize a set of dialects, whereas a more neutral view suggests very ancient distinct languages.
4. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Armenian had to originate out on the Ponto-Caspian steppe, and one reasonable place to put them would be the Catacomb culture, which would also put them in contact with early Greeks and Indo-Iranians (and thus neatly explain the e-augument, among other things).
5. As for how Armenian got to Armenia, the wreck of the Urartian kingdom would seem to have something to do with it.

Ejectives

On the page Ejective consonant it is claimed that Armenian has ejectives. Is this true? I was under the impression that the consonants usually transcribed [p‘ t‘ k‘] were actually aspirated in Armenian, not ejective. If anyone can confirm or deny, please make the appropriate edit to Ejective consonant. Thanks! --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 13:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

You’re right: those consonants [p‘ t‘ k‘] are in fact aspirated voiceless stops. See for example: Bert Vaux, The Phonology of Armenian, Oxford : Clarendon Press, 1998. - p. 7, p.12. (at amazon.com you can look at the pages I cited). I therefore deleted the wrong sentence from _General Considerations_ [87.137.10.50: that was me - I forgot to log in]. On the page Ejective consonant it is not claimed that Armenian has ejectives, it correctly says: “(Note that a reversed apostrophe represents aspiration, as in Armenian [p‘ t‘ k‘]; this usage is obsolete in the IPA.)” Hollah 13:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it did say that when I wrote the above message; it's been corrected since then! --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 18:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have checked the changes on that page Hollah 22:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I can personally attest to the fact that Modern Eastern Armenian does indeed have ejective consonants, however, it is not the series you mentioned - the aspirates - that is pronounced that way, but the voiceless plain stops. See also an article from the Wieser Enzyklopädie des europäischen Ostens (chapter 3, in German): [1]

Last Monday, three young ladies and a young gentleman from Armenia turned up at a class on Classical Armenian which I attend, interested to learn more about this language (which to them is basically familiar - roughly like NT Greek is to modern Greeks, I'd estimate - if not immediately intelligible, due to its complex syntax; grabar has, after all, been the written language in Armenia until the 19th century, and the modern written language is still relatively similar to it, probably more so than the spoken dialects).

When one of the ladies read a text out aloud, the ejective nature of the tenues was barely audible, admittedly, but apparently they are simply very quiet in this mode, or generally in fluent speech, quieter than in Georgian (I have twice spotted people speaking Georgian on the subway, thanks to this feature), or in indigenous American languages, for that matter.

However, when I directly asked the Armenians and discussed the matter with them, it became immediately clear that I had not been hallucinating, and they pronounced the ejectives much more clearly.

They pointed out that in the modern language, the three series of stops are neutralised at the ends of words, with only the aspirates appearing there.

Also, they mentioned that Modern Eastern Armenian alone has 22 dialects ("at least", they added), at least some of them being almost unintelligible to them ("just like in Germany"; I presume that their own dialects are relative close to the standard). This is, by the way, yet another example for how little linguistic differences mean in the conventional classification of varieties as languages vs. dialects.

By the way, there are reasons to think that the voiceless plain stops were glottalized already before the breakup of Western and Eastern Armenian, such as, if they had been simply plain stops, they would have merged with the voiced stops that became voiceless in Western Armenian and could not have become voiced there. Or, if they had become voiced first, they would have merged with the voiced stops, too.

So, there you have it, right from the Armenian's mouth, so to speak. Florian Blaschke 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Is modern Armenian typologically much closer to Turkish?

As Hans K. Vogt sums up in the 1997 Britannica, "Whereas Old Armenian was rather close to ancient Greek in many respects, Modern Armenian is typologically much closer to Turkish". This claim should be contested since Persia (modern Iran) and Armenia have been neighbors and coexisted for 2500 years, whereas Turkish Language is a relatively newcomer to the region (around 1000 A.D.). {bold=deleted}

Contesting the claim infers only an assumption, which is not backed up authoritatively here. Besides, the reasoning is logically unpersuasive: if it does prove anything at all linguistically, the proximity makes a closer relationship with Persia more likely than it does towards Turkey - only to the layman anyway. What ephemeral geographical ties with the Greek mainland existed, had been severed after osman invasion, and older possible phases of proximity to proto Greek people are even more distant. The invasion was followed by the cited 1000 years of neighbouring or ethnically mixed regions, which makes Vogt's claim not so implausible, as he is contrasting ancient Greek with modern Armenian. Arguably, modern Armenian's linguistic state is more likely to be influenced by the last millenium's happenings than by preceding eras and, not so arguably, Armenian relations with Turkey have been closer than those with Persia in the last 1000 years - lastly much to Armenia's detriment. Anyway, please feel free to contest, I'm just inferring and understand Armenian sensibilities on the issue, but please do research and cite sources.

On a somewhat unrelated note: a layman and non Armenian speaker myself, I just listened to some Armenian sound files before reading the article and couldn't help to be -unexpectedly- remembered of Greek ...and Turkish. --Tickle me 04:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Changes of 6/8 October 2005

These changes

05:07, 8 October 2005 68.101.111.161 (General considerations)
05:03, 8 October 2005 68.101.111.161 (Grammar)
02:43, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (minor technical corrections)
02:39, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (minor technical corrections)
02:21, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (General considerations)

added little and deleted references to foreign influence to the Armenian language without citing any sources. This is not the place for promoting nationalism. Turkish and other languages' linguistic influences don't demean the Armenian Genocide nor do they endanger the Armenian Republic's existence. They should be reverted to [2] or corrected. --Tickle me 16:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it, I think it is safe to affirm, that major changes such as the one made by this anonymous user, should be reverted back until he start using the talk page and justify them, and this in accordance to Neutral point of view policy. This article needs a review, to conform to Wikipedia high standard. But I don't have much time for now. It is obvious that any languages in the world, without exception, have been influenced by others, even though, the Britannica 1997 entry refers more to Western Armenian, it still is true for Western Armenian, and there is no reason to delete such informations, or introduce an editors conteranswer POV, as the anonymous user has already done. Also Tickle me, sometimes pay attention when important changes are made, or considerable materials are added, if there is no copyright infrigement, since some anonymous users copypast materials. Fadix 18:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, some of this anonymous changes were relevant, but this does not justify without a justification. Fadix 18:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Open any linguistics book, Noam Chomsky comes to mind, and you can look at the Armenian language and some facts, not opinions. Why don't YOU stop deleting articles I research to put together, it is insame to keep coming back to see your propaganda - Armenian is Turkish, Armenian is Persian, Greek, all over it, when any ligitmate research book, including the ones I've used in the top 10 major university I have attended, states otherwise. Keep opinions to your personal websites, as they do not belong in an Encyclopedia that does not seem to be monitored. 68.101.111.161

Nobody claims Armenian to be Turkish, Persian nor Greek, please read the article thouroughly, before you edit. Besides, Fadix and I acknowledged some of your changes to be relevant, but that's not the point; please read what others write on the talk page before arguing.

If Noam Chomsky backs your point, fine: cite the corresponding entries of his work - so far, you never did cite anything or anyone - that's the issue. And citing is not the same as name dropping: it's not enough to claim Noam Chomsky backs you. The Five Pillars of Wikipedia: Wikipedia uses the "neutral point-of-view" ...it means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible. Besides, please read this on fairness and sympathetic tone.

As you seem to be new to wikipedia, you might want to check this too: How to edit a page, Policies_and_guidelines and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view.

As for the Turkish lexical and phonological influence, which probabely upsets you the most, you may refer to these links: britannica.com and University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, which has even been mirrored by the Armenian Weekly website. Usually, you're free to edit anytime, however, if other wikipedians consider your edits to be controversial, wikiquette requests you to argue here first and to edit later, when issues have been discussed. --Tickle me 02:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that you deleted these sections of the talk page: This and that and Is modern Armenian typologically much closer to Turkish? Wikiquette considers this to be vandalism: this page is for discussion, not for deleting dissenting views. Anonymous users' IP or registered users accounts may be blocked because of vandalism - please don't do it again, this is quite outrageous. --Tickle me 03:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you also notice that all of my articles are gone? I had not even saved a copy and can't research to re-write all the time. If this site is neutral, then WHY IN THE WORLD is there a writer here who keeps comparing the Armenian language...to TURKISH?? Do we need to type the history of Armenians and Turks in this discussion section to explain my point of view? Look at linguistic books, Armenian has developed SEPARATE from all languages, and of all languages, to keep quoting a Turkish sympathetic writer's quote that Armenian is similar to Turkish, and I am supposed to just sit here and leave that false statement alone, while my researched writings get completely deleted, and over and over again get replaced with untrue statements? I don't think so. Where are the moderators? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.101.111.161 (talk • contribs) 09:09, October 13, 2005 (UTC).^diff

None of your articles is gone, they are all stored in the history, accessible for anyone. ...and I am supposed to just sit here... You are supposed to cite sources and back up what you say, nothing more or less. I called an admin for mediation, I hope he shows up. --Tickle me 10:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I got your note on my talk page, but I'm not sure what exactly I can do. As an admin, I have certain powers (I can block disruptive users or protect pages from vandalism or from content disputes), but I don't have more authority than anyone else. Wikipedia does have a Mediation Committee, of which I am not a member, but I'm not sure how much help they'll be against an anon user. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 11:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You could tell him to cite verifiable sources, to back up his claims authoritatively before editing, to not delete entries on talk pages, to not edit until disputed issues are resolved, to get knowledgeable about wikirules and about the blocking rules you mentioned on my talk page: ...If he persists after three warnings, let me know and I'll block him.... He doesn't seem to care or understand when I do.

@unknown user 68.101.111.161: Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Tickle me 12:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I could tell him to do so, but you already have told him to and he hasn't. Why would he listen to me if he doesn't listen to you? But leave the message at User talk:68.101.111.161. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 12:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

68.101.111.161 is vandalizing the talk page

Is two times vandalism of the same page, enough for a block? I really have enough of POV pusher vandals. :( Fadix 22:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I just blocked him for 24 hours. AFAICT that's a unique, static IP for one person, so it shouldn't affect innocent users. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 07:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Turkish influence controversy

A few things to consider. There is Armenian spoken by the average joe, be it in the Diaspora or the Republic and there is Armenian spoken by the professors, actors, scientists etc. The former lacks the "turkish influence" while the latter, the street vernacular/slang contains it. This MUST be noted in the article, the current state of the article is inaccurate and misleading since the same thing can be said about Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Hungarian etc.--Eupator 18:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Fadix: there is two major Armenian phonetics, Western and Eastern Armenians, there is also the old Grabar. While Western Armenian phonetic has been influenced by Turkish, (but more from Ottoman Turkish, which is different to modern Turkish, and had mixtures of other languages like Arabic). Eastern Armenian phonetic has been much more influenced from Persian. In the beginning of the last century, Armenian was classified by specialists as a form of Persian. Zazas, on the other hand, were considered Armenian dialect by some. "Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian" by Diakonoff (Journal of the American Oriental Society, 1985), provides also examples of Urartian influences. I would suggest the book, The Phonology of Armenian by Bert Vaux; Oxford University, 1998.

As Hans K. Vogt sums up in the 1997 Britannica, "Whereas Old Armenian was rather close to ancient Greek in many respects, Modern Armenian is typologically much closer to Turkish". Fadix on that Britannica entry: even though the Britannica 1997 entry refers more to Western Armenian, it still is true for Western Armenian

same thing can be said about Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Hungarian: (reciprocal) Turkish typological and structural influence on these languages is commonly explained by the Balkan Sprachbund - except for Hungarian, where Turkish influence relies on other historical and linguistical strata. I don't know if the Sprachbund phenomenon applies to Turkish/Armenian too, following its logic, it should. What's unclear: Hans K. Vogt's quote refers to typology, Fadix speaks about phonology.

Anyway, Vogt doesn't explicitly claim Armenian to be close to Turkish: he claims it is closer (comparative) to Turkish when compared to modern Armenian. Therefore, so far, I don't agree with your assessment. However, your claim about differing Turkish influence on vernacular and standard Armenian should be included once it has been verified.

Fadix is of Armenian origin and knowledgeable about history and linguistics, you may want to ask him. Bear in mind however, that I hate linguistic discussions is his input on the subject, as he is quite busy fighting the Turks, if you allow me some grim humour - I'm dealing with this on DE. Besides, the article is much too short at the moment anyway, feel free to expand. --tickle me 02:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

On the issue of Armenian language and its similarities in Turkish

First of all sorry if I write bad English!

I know by my own knowledge (heard from my grandmother and other people) that we (Armenians) do have some Turkic words. But this applies mainly for a dialect(s) of farmers and lesser literates. My grandmother was of such a farming family. They also know a lot of sayings in Turkish and child games. Not the mention that my grandmother speaks perfectly Turkish. But this is off course expected when your home is occupied by other people. In the case of the Armenians, by the Turks. They off cores had to deal and communicate with this people. It’s the same with the Russian expansion, when all the country’s within the Soviet-Union had to speak Russian as the formal language. But in this case Russian “occupation” didn’t last as long as Turkish (which is still going) So I know Russian very well and mangle Russian words often with Armenian words when speaking Armenian. But this does NOT mean that THE Armenian language looks like RUSSIAN now!! You Tickle me (and maybe Mr. Vogt to) shouldn’t miss the point, this (as I call it Farm-) Armenian is NOT an official Armenian language. It is only spoken by some groups of people and often considered to be very ugly and is not spoken by the higher societies and the mainstream Armenians. I my self have been mocked because of my dialect numerous times by the more literate Armenians including my sister who had studied Armenian language. Also the official language of the Armenian as it is considered nowadays is changing within itself to (like the grammar is adjusting , words are deleted, added etc.. just like in many other country this things happen all the time. Consider the Netherlands ware the grammar has been drastically adjusted recently. I say this because I live there). Just to rid of this impurities. Armenian language might have borrowed words from other languages (especially in the past) I can not argue that, but to state that Armenian language nowadays looks typologically (or phonologically) like Turkish is very much incorrect. Simply because this dialect(s) whare people actually use this Turkish words, are not official Armenian language(s). Off course I would agree on the fact that languages mix and that they could have some similarities, simply because people have always traded in goods to survive. It’s necessary for a society to communicate the best way with others. Language is after all just a human tool of communication. But that statement is just too broad and (in my opinion and in of many others) can’t be stated this way.

Also I do understand Armenian and know Turkish and Greek, and I can surely say Armenian does absolutely not sound like Turkish or Greek, ask Turks or Greeks yourself if you are not sure. By listening to some sound samples you can not just assume these things. When I listen to Chinese, Japanese, Thai or any other Asian language I also have a difficult time to name which one is which. They all sound a bit the same to me, but it surely doesn’t mean that they ARE a like. By quoting just one sentence of just one guy, you give an impression as if Armenian language is related to Turkish or Greek. You might not mean it this way, but if someone would read that part, and not have any knowledge of Armenian language, he or she might just generalize and think that Armenian language is a bit like Greek… or Turkish… I think the main thing is that Armenian language is a very unique one (as far as any language can be unique). This is also one of its most famous aspects. You might also agree that people would be proud of that. I don’t think there is any harm in that as long as they don’t necessarily hate others, but that’s also another issue. What I’m trying to say is that in your text you give a certain impression, that could easily lead to misinterpretation by people who are less familiar with it. This might also be the core of your problem with an Armenian guy. It might be better to state that Armenian language has been influenced by many cultures over the course of its existence (for trading purposes or simply by being occupied), but the official Armenian language has managed to remain relatively unique to other languages (in their surrounding). Or something like that. I also want to thank you for your effort to take time and write about Armenian language. I’m very happy that there are people interested in this ancient and (In my opinion) a beautiful language!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! (145.97.229.198)

Armenian grammar - Arabic/Chinese

Grammatically, early forms of Armenian had much in common with classical Greek, Arabic, Chinese and Latin.:
deleted Arabic, Chinese as nonsense; if added again, please argue and cite sources. --tickle me 13:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dude where you getting this crap from??? You should cite to!!!! And citing one dude's article aint gonna do it!!! I could site a bunsh of articles of nationalist people or the opposite!!! That doesn't prove anything. Give me an example, why and what part of the grammar looks like Arab or Chinese???.... (145.97.229.198)

The reaction is quite disheartening: "deleted Arabic, Chinese as nonsense". What's equivocal about that? I wouldn't know how to rephrase it for those impaired linguistically or otherwise. I didn't insert this "crap", I deleted it from the article. Shouldn't you know: this is not the article page - it's the article's talk page. The italicised sentence above is a quote from the articles former state, i.e. before my correction, wikipedia manners require you to do so before deletions, though in the case of nonsense it's just a sign of politeness. On wikipedia, all italicised sentences are qotes. You might want to have a cup of tea, dude. Besides, you wouldn't demean yourself getting knowledgeable about wikipedia conventions, before taking part in discussions. --tickle me 17:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Cup of tea hahaha, nice!! You must be an Englishman ahha, I won't make jokes about you don't worry. But I haven't edited or deleted anything, so don't worry about that either. I just felt like telling you about my experiences with the language. I would recommend not to take this thing to serious, this is a FREE encyclopedia, it will always be unreliable and (in my opinion) some what lacking the correct information. If any scientist ever would refer to any text on wikipedia, he or she would be mocked upon for a long time. By that I do not mean what you are doing is not impartment, on the contrary, what you do is information for most people who are interested in this language. Therefore wikipedia IS important. And sorry I did not understand what you said, in your previous reply. I thought you meant that someone had deleted Arabic and Chinese, and you ware mad about that. Furthermore, I really DON’T CARE about any RULES on wikipedia!! Just wanted to make that clear. I have enough experiences on discussion boards not to care!! By the way, you still haven't took out the Turkish stuff! At the beginning!!! Again, I'm not intending to change anything you write in the article, I just talk here!!! OO Tea is READY!! ;) (145.97.229.198)

reverting 84.80.210.26/145.97.229.198's edits/vandalism

Let's sum up: Sustaining the thesis of Turkish influence on the Armenian language's typology and phonology are, according to information provided here and in the article page:

• Hans K. Vogt: Professor of General Linguistics, head of the University of Oslo from 1964-69, author of Grammaire du géorgien moderne and chosen by the Encyclopedia Britannica to author the "Armenian language" language entry
• Bert Vaux, Professor of Linguistics, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, esteemed by armeniapedia.org and with quite an impressive academic cv
• registered wikipedia user Fadix, an Armenian from Canada, who has proven to be knowledgeable on the subject (1, 2), doesn't vandalise and is doing his best to fight Turkish nationalism concerning the Armenian Genocide

Opposing it there are, following your contributions on this talk page - and I'm not making this up, though it seems like a parody:

• you, mocked because of my dialect numerous times by the more literate Armenians... (your wording, not mine)
• your grandmother
• your sister, who ridicules your poor command of the Armenian language, see above

Don't get me started about the Turkish nationalist POV pushers I have to deal with constantly, that invariably at some point argue that "their grandmother told them" ...that the Armenian Genocide did not take place (and grampa does too). Your second line is that "What I’m trying to say is that in your text you give a certain impression, that could easily lead to misinterpretation by people who are less familiar with it". Mister: We won't suppress facts, just because not so bright people (like who would that be...?) might not be able to follow. Besides, the text is not mine, I just prevent it form being vandalised - and I'd like to make better use of my time!

Summing up: The article needs lots of correction and expansion (let's be funny: one of the points of inferior importance being, that at the moment, the Turkish influence on phonology is not being mentioned). However, I'm watching about 120 pages and don't have time to edit here, presently - though I could. As it seems, you do have the time, but obviously, responsible editing is not in your ability's scope.

As for this edit of yours:
Armenian it self has influenced some neighbouring cultures. Like Turks at the time of the Ottoman Empire. For about 250 years, from the early 18th century until around 1950, more than 2000 books were printed in the Turkish language using the letters of the Armenian alphabet (St Nersess Seminary, 2005). [3]

that's a fact worth mentioning, but the suitable place is with the Armenian alphabet, provided you rephrase that in proper English - and believe you me: I'll be watching your steps.

However this edit of yours: Mesrop Mashtots is some times also claimed to have invented the Georgian alphabet, Caucasian Albanian and even Ethiopian one. is conjecture and thus not encyclopedic. Anyway, it says so at Mesrop Mashtots, so you may relish in nationalist pride there, as I don't have time to clean up or to monitor that article - ...presently!

You're wasting my time. I'm fed up dealing with Armenian or Turkish nationalism and sillyness. What you are doing amounts to vandalism. This is the first warning of three: Stop it or I'll ask an admin to block your IPs, which happen to be static and blockable so far. --tickle me 06:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Extracts of deleted comment by 84.80.210.26 for others to evaluate (thx to Brian0918):

You don’t know me at all, and yet you seem to know so mutch about me HEHEHE!! I consider it as a compliment!! Don’t forget, you haven’t proven anything to me or any other readers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [...] I could easily say : “like Mr. BANGHOLE Said, Diarrhea is caused by internal conjunction of pancreatic exocrine cells!” HEHEH ahhahahaha (I know I’m a funny guy) ;) [...] ! WEAKK DUDE!!! Hug a rainbow!! [...] Free encyclopaedia my ass!! [...] I will have to do what I must! [...] I have enough IP’s to last this thing a LOOONG time!!! [...] And I AM a resonable person, so IF you have prooven me wrong I would gladly take away my comments and appologise!!! Till then TEEAAAAAAA!!!!!!

These are vulgar insults, this is your second warning. One attempt at mediation: Let the grandmother or the sister of yours which you mentioned earlier look at this and comment. They might show a calmer and more composed attitude. Btw, shouldn't you know: If blocking you isn't successful, the article will be blocked from editing as last resource and be put under admin supervision. --tickle me 06:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Greetings tickle me and others!!

by the way ultimatums, blocking, very professional!! But ok, lets discus this issue first. I’ve been looking into the typology of Armenian language. This is what I found! These below are Typologies of Indo-European Languages.

2.6 Indeling (Introduction) - satem-groep: k> s (silibant) . Indisch: Hindi/klassieke Sanskriet . Iraans (Iranian) . Armeens (Armenian) . Albanees (Albanic) . Baltisch: Litouws/Lets (Baltic) . Slavisch: Pools, Tsjechisch, Slovaaks, Sorbisch(W)/ Russisch, Wit-Russisch, Oekraiens (O)/Sloveens, Servisch, Kroatisch, Macedonisch, Bosnisch, Bulgaars(Z) (Slavic) - centum-groep: k blijft . Nieuwgrieks (New Greek) . Italisch: Latijn + zustertalen, Frans, Italiaans, Spaans, Catalaans, (Italic) Portugees, Occitaans, Gallicisch, Sardisch, Roemeens . Keltisch: Goidelische groep (Gealic: Schots, Iers, Manx) + Brittannische (Keltic) groep (Welsch, Bretons, Cornisch) . Germaans (German) Bron(Sorce):<http://fkserv.ugent.be/filologica/uploads/Inhoudstafel%20Germaanse%20typologie.doc>

I’m sorry it isn’t an English document but a Dutch one. But It still makes the point that Armenian language is a separate one from the others. I can’t find anywhere anything about Armenian being typologically similar to Turkish. Lets discus this issue first before going to block me or not!! I couldn’t respond earlier because I have been blocked (as you know already) for the reason of mass pasting. I didn’t know one could get blocked for that hehe! I used copy/past because I use the spelling control in Word. My English is not that well, as you might have noticed also. But strangely enough is my reply also been deleted. So if anyone is interested in what I had to say look in the green part on http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Armenian_language&diff=28178179&oldid=28152471. I didn’t mean to insult you, I just wanted you to see that what you was doing was blackmailing !! Strangely enough you did manage to pull my sentences from it’s context and present them as if I was cursing or insulting. I say it again, if you have a hard time to understand !! I don’t mean to insult you just think you are wrong by giving me ultimatums and unwilling to discus!! I will change the context in the article again, if no (reasonable) objections are made by anyone!! Also did you gave me green light to put that bit about Turks using Armenian alphabet in the Alphabet aria? O hope some reactions will come from this!!! Hope I won’t get blocked again for pasting hehe. I need spelling control!! --Pensamiento

Objections?

If anyone has objections to my chengings, I'll be more than willing to hear them. Lets descus them scientifically! :) --Pensamiento

I'm sorry but this made no sense: And is the only remaining language from antiquity. The two others, Thracic and Phrygic, are disappeared under the influences of Greek and Latin.. It's Thracian and Phrygian btw. Please elaborate here.--Eupator 00:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

@Eupator, you're right, beside being sub standard English, it's nonsensical.

@"Pensamiento" (¡vaya nombre más adecuado!): fkserv.ugent.be But It still makes the point that Armenian language is a separate one from the others...: This is true as far as historical linguistics go - and the article already states so unmistakably: It is its own independent branch of the family of the Indo-European languages, with no living close relatives....

As for your Vogt quote editing: You deleted repeatedly something that has been substantianted so far. You are not to do so before convincing disputants. You've been told so before. This is you third and last warning. Not only IPs, but accounts can be blocked too. If you ever want to have a say in admin mediations, you need an account with at least 200 edits. You won't get this doing it your ways. I cleaned up your Armenian_alphabet edits, I won't do it again. It was written in sub standard English, as usual. As your English is poor, and you don't give me any reason to be polite about this anymore, you're required to mind this. And I'm not to tell you! If you want wikipedia to care about you, you'll have to care about wikipedia, wether you like it or not. Check the help pages and look for assistance with people that find you less obnoxious that I am compelled to do.

Did you ever look at nl:Armeens or nl:Armeense_alfabet? As of yet, the dutch wikipedia has few articles, and most are of poorest quality, as are those two. Why don't you edit there, at least the language problem won't interfere ...though I'm not so sure about that - but I don't have the time to watch nlWiki too. You're likely to find no resistance writing "whatever" you like, as dutch wiki lacks of editors and admins alike. The same applies to hy:Հայերեն; you may ask your relatives to help you there.

for the reason of mass pasting... hehe: You're supposed to edit, not to copy and paste. Besides not being likely to give encyclopedical results, more often than not, it causes legal trouble for wikipedia due to copyright violations.

Should you decide to stay here, mind the help pages and the links it provides, else you'll find resistance anywhere. Beside, be short, precise and not verbose as you tend to be and as I'm presently. You are new, besides we're required to be as polite as we can with vandals - that's why I write more than I would like. Gravemente dudando que tus pensamientos valgan alguna pena, esperando que se mejore el asunto: --tickle me 04:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, very polite of you calling me a vandal all the time. I think you might have some power issues, maybe! Blackmailing me with you ultimatums, not very nice dude! But I already told it to you and apparently it didn’t help. So I’ll just have to stop correcting you on that. I just assume you are not reasonable and remain hostile to me (and who knows to whom ells). And Don't worry about my Dutch (I write articles for the local newspaper). Also you only talk to me when ever I make changes in the article, so don’t come to me complaining about lack of discussion or me being vandal. Off course I am still willing to discus these issues with anyone. Euraptor I agree, This article really needs more work. And I appreciate the way you disagree with me on an issue. You are probably right about the sentence: “And is the only remaining language from antiquity. The two others, Thracic and Phrygic, are disappeared under the influences of Greek and Latin” being nonsense. So I won’t put it in the article anymore. But these are not my words, I had read it while doing research. I shall do more reasearch to the typology of Armenian language. And when I find good evidence I shall publish it soon.

Also it seem to me, Tickle me, that you don’t respect wikipedia. You are stating that the Netherlands and the Armenian wikipedia is not well, I’m not saying this, YOU ARE. I had enough of your crap really. From now on I won’t listen to you or descus with you any isseu!!! You had to think of this before you repeadadly insulted me not knowing anything of ME!!!!! So your comments to me worth from now on nothing anymore!! Sorry! I have the idea, you will never change your mind! You might learn a thing of two from other users of descusion pages!!!! (nice try translating into Spanish!)

Yess my English is not that well. So I from now on will put info in the descusion page first for people to evaluate (NOT Tickle me , becouse he apearantly has some personaly isseus with me and is not wuilling to look into mather objectivly). I will also apresciate it very mutch if anyone could refrse my posible flowd English ito correct, when I put stuff in the descusio. Or I just ask my other English friends to do so. Anyway I have pased my exames so, I have now loads of time. Hope to contrbute a few things to the knowledge of Armenian language  --Pensamiento

The Vogt quote

It's merely his opinion and the article should stress that. I added "according to". I of course agree that Old Armenian and modern Armenian are closest to Greek; however, sources need to be presented. I hope to do so in the future.

I also changed the sentence below for obvious reasons. Persian is an IE language! To be specific it was the language of the Parthians that influenced Armenian.

"While Armenian contains many Indo-European roots, its phonology has been influenced by neighboring Persia, and Caucasian languages."

This article badly needs more work.--Eupator 00:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Eupator: For starters, I reverted the article to the state it had before Pensamiento edited it. I didn't want to wade through this mud. Then I changed the disputed sentence according to your wishes, though I don't think that it was neccessary. New wording: According to Hans K. Vogt's article in the 1997 Britannica.... I hope this is OK with you.

While Armenian is an Indo-European language, its phonology has been influenced by Caucasian languages. I added While Armenian is an Indo-European language,, as you wrote, though I'm pretty sure that the other version is more accurate. As for Persian influence on phonology, I don't agree at all; however, I'm watching 147 pages presently and editing dozens, so I don't wan't to take the time to check sources and discuss, please understand. Please get in touch with Fadix; he's an Canadian Armenian, speaks Armenian fluently and is knowledgeable on its linguistics and history. Check his contributions to Talk:Armenian_Genocide; you may trust him, he's everything but an anti Armenian bigot. --tickle me 05:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

This article badly needs more work.: Indeed, feel free do expand. --tickle me 03:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Eupator I agree very mutch, that’s why I shall dedicate my time to find out more of Armenian Language. The openion of Vogt isn’t realy adequat, knowing that the offecial armenian has very litle (if not eny) Turkish influence. Also consider that Armenian language is being purifyed nowerdays, by the linguist in Armenia to make it more authentic (to the old one)! The article need much more improovement. I’ll see what I can do! (also you ware right about my first scentence, like I agreed in the previous comment in the Objections? aria)! --Pensamiento

recent changes

To all concerned: Fadix#fighting_POV_at_Armenian_language --tickle me 06:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I can live with these changes, though more clearifing need to be made. aspecialy about the influance of Caucasian languages. I know a lot of caucasian languages, so I'll see if I can find anything!! --Pensamiento

Conflict resolution

I just came in here to try to resolve the conflict. I am on a wikibrake right now, and I will remain in a wikibrake for some times. I just am posting, to present a solution to the conflict.

I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles, and I propose that new changes should be made based on those articles so that people could agree for the time being, and having sources that those participating in the changes have access to, helps.

Here are the articles I suggest to email to those interested. I am just listing this for now, I will add more when I come back. Also note that for now, I am not reffering to articles published after the 80s(two exceptions though), because of copyright issues, even thought I will only be emailing them. I may maybe in the future propose to do so, for some articles which I consider important to be mentioned.

Also, if anyone find a title for an article on google that he/she thinks will be important for this article, email your request to me, and I'll see if I can get it. Regards (for the requests, if you want those articles emailed, request it by emailing me, thanks)

• Problems of Armenian Phonology I, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 30, No. 2 (Apr., 1954), pp. 197-201

• Problems of Armenian Phonology II, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 31, No. 1 (Jan., 1955), pp. 4-8

• Problems of Armenian Phonology III, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 38, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul., 1962), pp. 254-262

• On the Placing of Armenian, by J. Alexander Kerns; Benjamin Schwartz, Language, Vol. 18, No. 3 (Jul., 1942), pp. 226-228

• Is Armenian an Anatolian Language? by William M. Austin, Language, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Jan., 1942), pp. 22-25

• The Etymology of Armenian ert'am by Charles R. Barton, Language, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1963), p. 620

• 'Initial' Indo-European */y/ in Armenian, by Robert Minshall, Language, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Oct., 1955), pp. 499-503

• Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians by John A. C. Greppin; I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 111, No. 4 (Oct., 1991), pp. 720-730

• The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages by Douglas Q. Adams, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 104, No. 3 (Jul., 1984), pp. 395-402

• The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis by E. H. Sturtevant, Language, Vol. 38, No. 2 (Apr., 1962), pp. 105-110

• Adjacency Parameters in Phonology by David Odden, Language, Vol. 70, No. 2 (Jun., 1994), pp. 289-330

• Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology, by Gordon Myron Messing, Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 56 (1947), pp. 161-232

• Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian by I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 105, No. 4 (Oct., 1985), pp. 597-603

• The Armenian Aorist by G. Bonfante, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 62, No. 2 (Jun., 1942), pp. 102-105

• Mountain of Tongues: The Languages of the Caucasus by J. C. Catford, Annual Review of Anthropology, Vol. 6 (1977), pp. 283-314

• Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship by Alvar Ellegard, Language, Vol. 35, No. 2, Part 1 (Apr., 1959), pp. 131-156

Fad (ix) 20:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I will also add that instead of jumping on tickle me(who is simply following Wikipedia policies), some here might better serve by starting articles about other Armenian issues, subjects like Armenian Renaissance etc., I will be glad to provide articles for some to read to creat wiki articles. Fad (ix) 21:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles...: Fine, I'll mail you. I had no intention to edit or rewrite the article, however, I'll eventually will replace the parts that need it most. Thanks for the comprehensive and well chosen listing. --tickle me 23:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Conflict resolution - addendum

I received Fadix' material. I'll send items of this list to anyone interested by mail as well (it's preferable to get them by me), either as single files or as a 32MB zip.

• 'Initial' Indo-European y in Armenian.pdf (618 KB)
• Adjacency Parameters in Phonology.pdf (3.686 KB)
• Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian.pdf (1.067 KB)
• In Memoriam Hans Vogt .pdf (317 KB)
• Is Armenian an Anatolian Language.pdf (500 KB)
• Mountain of Tongues. The Languages of the Caucasus.pdf (3.360 KB)
• On the Placing of Armenian.pdf (413 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology I.pdf (641 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology II.pdf (624 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology III.pdf (1.238 KB)
• Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology.pdf (6.227 KB)
• Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians.pdf (1.565 KB)
• Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship.pdf (2.972 KB)
• The Armenian Aorist.pdf (852 KB)
• The Etymology of Armenian ert'am.pdf (120 KB)
• The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis.pdf (740 KB)
• The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages.pdf (1.264 KB)
• Validity of Glottochronology.pdf (8.665 KB)

--tickle me 21:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Fadix informes me like so: I forgot to add, that you should clarify on the talk pages that the material won't be provided to more than 5 people for copyright issues. The server I use has clear restrictions, we're doing this in good faith and educational purposes to use it for an encylopedia, this should be made clear. I'll post the nicks of those who get copies. --tickle me 15:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

About Hans K. Vogt

He is one of the initiators of the thesis that language modification is not constent, he published his major research, with Knut Bergsland in 1962, titled: On the Validity of Glottochronology by Knut Bergsland; Hans Vogt, Current Anthropology, Vol. 3, No. 2 (Apr., 1962), pp. 115-153. I will therefore add this article, so, if anyone want it, you may request it by email to me, and I'll sent it in PDF format. After reading his studies, I have a problem, with Britannica allowing him to write articles on languages, for the simple reason as it appears, he gives too much spaces to the theories he himself innitiated. Fad (ix) 21:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, since I do not have access to Britannica, I am wondering when the article of 1997 has been writen. Probably Britannica has recycled it over the years, since according to the In Memorian Hans Vogt, published in the International Journal of American Linguistics, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Jan., 1989), pp. 83-85 he died on September 1986, and he was 83 years old. Can anyone having access to Britannica verify? Isen't it funny, that having access to many databasis, I don't have access to it? :) Or perhaps, it's another languist of the same name with the same field of research?(language modification). Fad (ix) 22:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok cool man, I will e-mail you soon for some articles. HEHHE You actualy do it scientificaly here on wikipedia hehehe. I had a diferent idea first knowing that it could be modifed by anyone!! But very nice that you have these articles. I don't have the article of Vogt from Britanica my self, but I also would like to read it my self becouse it sounds really strange that scentence. I mean what is the typology in this case? And in deed it sounds more like some opinion. But ok, I'm actualy surprisd (in a good way) you do it scientificaly here!! NIce!!! --Pensamiento

SEARCHING TO:HO LIVED ISTANBUL FROM ARMANIAN FAMILY

SEARCHING TO:HO LIVED ISTANBUL FROM ARMANIAN FAMILY

HIII;

I AM SEARCHING ARMANIAN FAMILY WHO LIVED IN ISTANBUL.BECAUSE OF THEIR LIE, FAMILY, FAMILY SHEETS, OLD ARMANIAN HOUSE WHICH IN ISTANBUL.. SO THAT IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME ABOUT IT SEND MAIL TO ME....

EXACTLY FAMILY F THESE FAMILY MEMBERS FROM LAST CENTURY OR NEW GENERATION FROM THEM 1- DIMITRI 2-GEORK 3-ANGELIDIS 4-ANGELIDES 5-ERIH 6-RODI totmel@hotmail.com

'unique' nature of Armenian phonology

A quick comment - sorry if duplicated, didn't have time to read all the discussion:

`Armenian also has many other unique letters not heard in other languages. There are two different "k"s; as well as a letter sounding like a cross between "p" and "b"; two "r" letters, one pronounced with a rolling "r" sound; the letter "gh" pronounced like the French "r"; "kh" a harder pronunciation also found in many Middle Eastern languages; as well as the letters "ts", "tz", "dz", "dch", "uh" like the "a" sound in the word "arrange"; and many more. These are just a few examples that make Armenian a rich and unique language.'

This whole paragraph is false as none of the sounds described are 'unique' in the sense of being exclusive to Armenian. Forgive me if I am wrong, but these sounds are shared with Georgian are they not?

Yes, the individual consonants are not unique, although the entire Armenian phonological palate is quite distinctive. I'll try to rewrite the information on the sounds in Armenian with reference to the International Phonetic Alphabet. — Gareth Hughes 19:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Anatolia is in Turkey, right?

Hi, in the table, which presents the regions of where Western Armenian is spoken, isn't it more accurate to say "Turkey" instead of "Anatolia". Furthermore, isn't it more consistent to include "Turkey" into Asia or Europe sections or maybe to change the name of the "Asia" section to "Middle East" and add "Turkey" into this section wihtout mentioning the cities since in other countries the cities are not mentioned as well. Cansın 6 May 2006

Hi, as Turkey is usually identified with the current Turkish Republic I prefer Anatolia which was a part of the Ottoman Empire. Furthermore Anotolia did not use to have clear borders (it is an old word of Greek origin) and is therefor not exactly the same as the Asian part of modern Turkey. Furthermore it is at least to a certain extent misleading to label territories disputed between the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire as “Turkey” (especially when it is sometimes called Western or Eastern Armenia as well). Ulf-S. 22:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ulf-S, when you itemize the countries you used the current names with current borders, Such as Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Lebanon, Syria, Jerusalem ,Russia..etc. However, when you itemize the cities Istanbul, Bitlis, Van, Marash, Sis (which is Kozan in Turkish) which are located in Turkey you prefer Anatolia? Isn't it kind of incostintent? Moreover, I am really surprised when you say "it is at least to a certain extent misleading to label territories disputed between the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire as “Turkey” ". There is no disputed territory between Russia (which is the successor state of USSR) and Turkey since the Treaty of Kars in 1921. It makes me sad to hear "especially when it is sometimes called Western or Eastern Armenia as well". You are talking about eastern part of Turkey, which is called Western Armenia only by some nationalist Armenian fellows. It is quite reasonable to write "Turkey" as one of the countries where Western Armenian is spoken without jeopardizing the legitimacy of the article. Cansın 6 May 2006

The Constitution of Armenia claims Western Armenia officialy not recognizing the current border with Turkey. The government of Armenia also doesn't recognize the Treaty of Sevres or the Treaty of Kars. But that doesn't matter, it should just be replaced with Turkey since all those territories are currently occupied by the country of Turkey and not Anatolia.

Dear Eupator, here is the problem: Treaty of Kars was undersigned by USSR in Yerevan and the government of the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia was among the participants (Askanaz Mravian, People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Poghos Makintsian, People's Commissar for Internal Affairs). Today's Armenia inherited the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia like Turkey inherited the Ottoman Empire. I really don't understand how today's Armenia cannot recognize a treaty signed by its predecessor state. Anyway it is an endless discussion... --Cansın 7 May 2006

As I wrote about the past (before 1918) I used the terms Russian Empire and Ottoman Empire. Of course, Van is in Turkey nowadays -- and there is no serous dispute about it. It is the same when I write about Königsberg before 1871. It was definately not a town neither in the Russian Empire nor Germany but in Prussia. (Nowadays Kaliningrad is definately a town Russia -- and there is no serious dispute about it). I just want to use historical or geographical terms in stead of modern political ones. Ulf-S. 13:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ulf-S, you are using historical and geographical terms only for "Anatolia" not for other countries/regions in the same table. With your reasoning you can write Turkey under Anatolia region. --Cansın 7 May 2006

Armenian in Wikipedia

A guideline on whether or not to italicize Armenian (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

English

I only speak English, but can I still contribute?--Craig Thomasian 05:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Direction of Writing

An explicit statement that Armenian is written from left to right may be helpful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PhiDeck (talk • contribs) 14:03, 20 October 2006.

Punctuation

A brief discussion of punctuation symbols and their usage would be useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PhiDeck (talk • contribs) 14:03, 20 October 2006.

Someone with computering skills!

Hello! Couldn´t someone with some computering skills make a table of the Armenian vowels in IPA and the Armenian alphabet. It verily would improve the symmetrics of the article!