Talk:Gab (social network)

'Still not improvements'

Hi D.Creish. In your 3rd revert of the day, you said that the edits made by me and Tsumikiria were 'still not improvements' (that is all the edit summary said) when reverting them. I'm having difficulty understanding what you meant - your edit goes from removing a description of antisemitic commentary made by the platform to rephrasing the well-sourced (please see above sections) 'favorite of' wording being discussed to the contentious phrasing proposed by Ridiceo, as well as other, even harder to understand reverts of edits made. I note that you have only made one small comment on this talk page, which makes your unexplained reverts hard to understand. Could you please explain? PeterTheFourth (talk) 20:36, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

"Favorite of" is not "well-sourced". It's an opinion. Just because a source says it doesn't make it true. None of the sources cited provided any studies or arguments that supported the claim that gab is a "favorite" of alt-right users. Ridiceo (talk) 23:47, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

D.Creish also reverted important copyedits made by Ahrtoodeetoo and me without adequate explanation. At this point these reverts are hard to understand to be other than out of personal liking, rather than genuine improvement of the article, especially when the reverted material are well sourced and under consensus. Explain your reasons, or do not revert in questionable faith. Tsumikiria (T/C) 21:41, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

So like, the several reverts you have done to both mine and his edits? I make an edit, you revert it, I discuss on the talk page, you accuse me of breaking Wikipedia guideline, rinse and repeat. Ridiceo (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I provided detailed explanation for my reverts and actively discussed and explaned my changes on this talk page, unlike the other user. You ignored PeterTheFourth's explanation in above sections, so here I repeat for you: All three sources, The far-right’s favorite social network is facing its own censorship controversy, Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooter Spewed His Hate on Gab, the Alt-Right’s Favorite Social Network, Gab, the Alt-Right's Favorite Social Network, Gets Rejections From Apple, Twitter, they are all factual reporting, not op/eds, from reliable sources. This is especially true when startup-focused Inc identified Gab as such in 2016, long before any recent controversies. And yes, article titles too count as content that can be used to verify facts, and the articles did have in-text support for such: "Gab has marketed itself as a home for extremists", "built catering to right-wing extremists into its business model", "back-up social network for white supremacist". Outside of these sources, 61% of individuals on ADL's extremist list is also something. "Favorite of far-right" is a verified, better descriptor than mere "popular with". Twitter/Facebook/Tumblr is popular with far-right too. Facts should not be written as opinions.

And because you did go against Wikipedia guidelines? Your idiosyncratic interpretation of factual reporting being opinion, based on your own liking, was a clear misreading of Wikipedia guideline to your own advantage. You are shown to repeatedly push your interpretations with which the consensus of the community clearly does not agree and refuse to concede when your points has been disproved or rejected by the community. Please spare the now dead beyond-all-recognition horse you have beaten. Tsumikiria (T/C) 06:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

To insist that each and every source wont have some sort of opinion is absurd. Yes, they are factual reporting. That's because what they're reporting on is verifiable as a fact. The first article you linked, it's reporting on Gab having been told by their domain registrar to remove a post. NOT whether or not gab is a "favorite" of the alt-right. Gab being a "favorite" of the alt-right is objectively their opinion. And for the 15 millionth time, the article doesn't even claim & back up the statement "far-right's favorite social network", in their article. Why? because the article is not about whether Gab is the alt-right or far-right's favorite website. Furthermore, Media bias is an actual thing that exists. It's not some phony far-right conspiracy theory. "This article says it so that must mean it's fact" isn't how Wikipedia uses sources. We discern what it's reporting on and it's actual bias by writing about it in a neutral point of view. It's why we have WP:ASSERT, and WP:YESPOV. Gab being a "favorite" of the alt-right isn't verifiable. None of the sources you cited report on Gab being a "Favorite" of the alt-right. Ridiceo (talk) 14:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I just told you why the articles support this particular wording. It is also a better choice than mere "popular with", as "popular with" fails to distinguish the difference in notability between Gab and Twitter/FB etc that are also widely used by extremists. And NPOV is not "No POV". Even bot writers are trained by their journalist owners' biases to some degree. It's improbable to demand some absolutely POV untainted GMO-free content. They don't readily exist, if any. If they are reliable, verified, weight and writing considered, then yes, they're in. No questions asked. The horse you've beaten is now up to eleven beyond dead, so once again, please drop the stick Tsumikiria (T/C) 07:14, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

The articles do not support the particular wording. These articles are not about whether or not Gab is a "Favorite" of far-right or alt-right users. It's important to include opinions as opinions. In quotes. They don't support the claim that it is a "favorite" of far-right users. They simply say it in their title. I've explained thoroughly why that is an opinion.

I said: ""Favorite" is editorializing, and isn't supported in the sources cited, as those sources don't cite any research articles or statistics that show that Gab is a "Favorite" of the alt-right." My response from PeterTheFourth was: "In a news article, we do not pick and choose what are 'facts' and what is 'opinion' based on how much we like it. An article is generally an opinion piece e.g. op-eds/etc. or it is factual writing." This isn't a refutation of my main point. I replied to him: "Then that means any source goes. Even unreliable ones. This assertion is ridiculous. There is a very clear distinction between opinion and fact. It is an opinion BECAUSE it's not supported by anything the source has said."

Another user then replied, "I'm satisfied with the verifiability of the "favorite" language now that we have sourcing that supports it. However we now have citation overkill. Not as big a deal, but I'd suggest we remove the sources that don't verify the current language (both Washington Post articles) and one or two of the weaker other ones. I don't know the relative reliability of Inc.com, The Verge, and The Daily Beast. My hunch is that The Daily Beast is the most reliable of those three. " Which again, doesn't refute my central point. It only states that the sources support the language used, and doesn't show how this sourcing supports the language. I replied, then, saying "Sourcing doesn't support it. It's still an opinion, and the article does not cite any information showing that Gab is a "favorite" of the alt-right. " And then *gasp* as soon as I disagreed with him, now I'm suddenly against consensus. they said, "You made your "opinion" point, no need to beat it to death. The consensus is against you on that one." That's weird, I didn't know that a single user got to choose when a consensus was made. Ridiceo (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

@Ridiceo: WP:DROPTHESTICK. PeterTheFourth (talk) 22:31, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Ignoring my argument doesn't make it go away, PeterTheFourth. Ridiceo (talk) 23:42, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Fine. The rest of us already moved on and you don't even have to agree. Concede while you can. Tsumikiria (T/C) 03:37, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Reaching consensus is important. However consensus isn't made just because you say it's been made. You can continue to ignore me and lie about consensus being made, however that doesn't change the core meaning of my argument. My argument is still the same. Consensus-Blacklisting another editor (aka reaching a consensus by ignoring another editor's concerns, then claiming a consensus was made, and reversing any edits that single editor made) can lead to meat-puppetry or edit-warring. Remember: Consensus doesn't prevent me from editing the article. Creating factions to abuse the consensus-making process doesn't end well. You can continue to ignore my concerns, or you can respond directly to them, instead of crying "concensus has already been made", and you may change my mind. However, blacklisting me from consensus-making isn't going to go how you think it will. Ridiceo (talk) 06:36, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Again I've removed "extreme" and "immediate intent to harm" from the lede because neither was in the cited sources. Don't restore it without a source and consensus. D.Creish (talk) 22:20, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  I've restored it. It's in the sources; you're being intentionally obtuse.--Jorm (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I thought I reviewed them all. Can you tell me which one best supports it and I'll check again? D.Creish (talk) 22:24, 10 December 2018 (UTC) The justification you gave in your edit summary is OR. Per WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME wait for consensus before restoring. D.Creish (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Source 1 [1] says: "Bowers' final post on Gab announced his imminent attack on the synagogue"; notes his "anti-Semitic posts about the mass killing of Jews"; "he announced his 'imminent, lawless' attack on the religious center". Source 2 [2] quotes Bowers' post: "HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I can't sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I'm going in." -- Softlavender (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

<chef's kiss>--Jorm (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

How's this? My objections are specifically to "immediate" (which is different from imminent) and "intent to harm" which is one way to phrase it but not one used by the sources. D.Creish (talk) 22:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

• As far as sourcing I'm fine with the protected version which includes Softlavender edit. Style could be improved but I don't think anyone's going to edit war over that. D.Creish (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  No. You put in what I think is your fifth revert before it was locked; we'll return to the earlier text when the lock expires, I think.--Jorm (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

  In this context, I am not sure I see the distinction between "announced his imminent attack" and "posted an immediate intent to harm" (which seems to be the main point of contention here.) Was your revert procedural, or do you have a specific reason to prefer "announced his imminent attack?" The "immediate / imminent" quibbling above notwithstanding, I think both are valid summaries of the sources (announcing an imminent attack is posting an immediate intent to harm; we're allowed to paraphrase to that extent), and I can understand objecting to all the reverts, but I also think the revised version is a bit more clear and at this point says essentially the same thing. --Aquillion (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Softlavender: Were my objections clear? Do you agree/disagree? D.Creish (talk) 04:24, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Your edits were inaccurate and against consensus, in addition to being edit-warring. Softlavender (talk) 04:15, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 December 2018

Please add in {{short description|Alt-right social network}} at top of page. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 00:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done while the page is fully protected you will need to establish a consensus for this specific change, after one emerges in this section feel free to reactivate the edit request if needed. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:54, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with change.--Jorm (talk) 04:56, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Agree - although "far-right" may be a broader, more suitable descriptor based on sources. We can edit on Wikidata in the meantime. Tsumikiria (T/C) 05:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

If the Wikidata info is appropriate for this article, then it should be added. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 06:01, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

 Partly done on Wikidata. Now this stuff should show up in your mobile WP apps. Check it out. Tsumikiria (T/C) 06:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Tsumikiria: I have noticed that it has appeared on Wikidata. However, I still don't see it on the article. I don't think there'd be any controversy if the short description template were added to that page, provided we get consensus on whether to put in "alt-right social network" or "far-right social network" on the short description, though I sense that the consensus is already leaning "far-right" instead. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 00:11, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

• Far-right is preferable based on the first sentence of the lead. --Aquillion (talk) 06:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Character limit update to 3,000

On the 16th of December, Gab expanded the character limit to 3,000 for all members, the 3,000 limit previously being a feature for Pro members only . The second sentence of the article should be changed to reflect that Luminism (talk) 08:13, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Y Combinator alumni network

We have the following text

...was himself removed from the Y Combinator alumni network because of harassment concerns, starting when he used "build the wall" to insult a Latino CEO

The single source for the Latino claim[3] doesn't use the word insult, doesn't indicate Torba knew he was Latino, doesn't claim the aforementioned Latino is a CEO, and doesn't indicate that specific post had any bearing on the harassment claim. It's a questionable statement about a BLP and should be removed. D.Creish (talk) 04:18, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Are you serious with this wikilawyering? No. --Jorm (talk) 04:47, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I say BLP claims should be sourced and you call it wikilawyering? D.Creish (talk) 04:58, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

How exactly does describing the CEO as Latino (with a source) violate WP:BLP? This is a new one, even for you. PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:21, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@D.Creish: Whoops, looks like you missed this one pal. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:51, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

JFC. Since Mr. Apologist Demands Consensus:

• Remove D.Creish's CRYBLP tags.--Jorm (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I think we could reword it slightly, but the fact that he was banned for harassment and threats is pretty well-cited. Here, here, here. I feel we should reword it to avoid saying or implying that "build the wall" was the specific insult that got him banned, since that's not quite what the sources say. I'd just omit that and say that he was banned for harassment and threats instead. (Also, we should use these as cites - they're better than TechCrunch and Buzzfeed, certainly.) Something like Andrew Torba, the CEO of Gab.ai, was himself removed from the Y Combinator alumni network for violating its harassment policy and for "speaking in a threatening, harassing way towards other YC founders." or something to that effect. If anything, Torba himself seems to be the only one obsessed with the "build the wall" tweet (the more detailed description gives me the sense that he was trying to force a meme with it or something? But the "banned for threats and for violation of harassment policy" bit is the important thing for a one-sentence takeaway, not comparative trivia like that.) Honestly, the "build the wall" part serves to minimize what happened, really (which would be why Torba is fixated on it.) Also, if anything, the current construction of "harassment concerns" soft-sells what the sources say; eg. engaget's It's also worth noting that Torba was just kicked out of startup incubator Y Combinator for violating its harassment policy and the "speaking in a threatening, harassing way towards other YC founders" quote that most sources include is much more clear-cut than the more vague "harassment concerns" we have now. --Aquillion (talk) 05:26, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

MJ isn't RS for BLP but I'll read the other two, I don't know Daily Dot. With the current sources I'd be fine with your proposed text, my issue was accuracy not helping or hurting. D.Creish (talk) 05:32, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it matters in this case, but I'll note that I strongly disagree with your assertion that MJ universally fails RS for a BLP. They are WP:BIASED, which requires some caution in a BLP context, but no moreso than, say, Fox news - along those lines, I'd be cautious about using a cite like MJ or Fox alone to establish WP:DUE weight, or for WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims not backed up elsewhere, but their reputation is otherwise good and they can be used in a situation like this. A quick look at WP:RSN seems to general support for using them this way, too. They're certainly not a remove-on-sight level, and I'm particularly baffled that you'd imply that they're not a superior source to TechCrunch and Buzzfeed, which are patiently far more contentious (I'm one of the people who thinks Buzzfeed's news reporting is better than people say it is, and even I think MJ is obviously a better source when available.) Like, it doesn't matter in this situation, but your comment there was so sharply divergent from what I'm familiar with when these sources come up on WP:RSN that I was a bit stunned - if you really, really think MJ is unusable in a specific context, you can bring it to WP:RSN when it comes up, but I can say with near-ironclad certainty that if you went there asking people to affirm that it is generally unusable in a BLP context, you'd be wasting your time. (But... worse than Buzzfeed and TechCrunch? Really?) --Aquillion (talk) 05:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I excerpted the relevant passages:

Engadget

It's also worth noting that Torba was just kicked out of startup incubator Y Combinator for violating its harassment policy. Torba says he was banned for tweeting "build the wall" and that he was generally attacked at his time there for his views, but Y Combinator partner Kat Malanac said Torba was removed for "speaking in a threatening, harassing way toward other YC founders."

Daily Dot

As BuzzFeed News reports, Torba took a screenshot of a Latino startup founder’s Facebook post lamenting Trump’s election win. “Tomorrow, being a Hispanic, Black, Muslim or woman in the USA is going to be very scary,” Aniza Mirza, co-founder of Giveffect, wrote. In his screenshot, Torba wrote, “Build the wall.” After other members of the Y Combinator community chastised Torba’s comment, he responded by telling everyone to “fuck off” and praised himself for helping “meme a president into office”: All of you: fuck off. Take your morally superior, elitist, virtue signaling bullshit and shove it. I call it like I see it, and I helped meme a President into office, cucks

D.Creish (talk) 05:43, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

(ec) D.Creish, are you ready to defend that "cuck", "f* off" and saying "build the wall" twice, first screenshot quote and second replying in the context of reading upon that the previously quoted person is a latino, isn't insult? YC publicly stated he was kicked of for harassment and you don't get to decide that isn't. Misusing {POV statement} when consensus told you your version is unacceptable isn't going to be anywhere helpful. Tsumikiria (T/C) 05:39, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I can't understand this, sorry. D.Creish (talk) 05:43, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Protected edit request on 19 December 2018

Under #2018 Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. The link to high-speed magazine should be changed to high-capacity magazine, per both attached sources (specifically regarding a high-capacity magazine ban). Grayfell (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

• Agreed, although there isn't a deadline for this. Tsumikiria (T/C) 02:18, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
•  Done - The huffingtonpost source also lists "high-speed" was an error in the corrections section. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:33, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits

Re the recent removals of "far-right" [4], please see WP:NPOV. This is how the sources cover Gab, so Wikipedia follows. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:21, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Smearing Gab with sources participating in a smear campaign is not WP:NPOV. Get your facts straight, that's what you get for reading Salon.com 24/7/365! AlanSmithee1990 (talk) 04:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

If sources are "participating in a smear campaign", then please take it up with sources. Alternatively, there's Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, where such matters can be brought to the attention of the wider community. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:57, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

I think it’s alarming that a place known for being a cesspool of Nazis and white supremacists and embraced as much is now having people throw around a “smear campaign” accusation--Fradio71 (talk) 21:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Hey, uh. Welcome to Wikipedia?--Jorm (talk) 02:58, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Reminded me that the "cesspool" description from reliable sources is also pertinent. Added. Tsumikiria (T/C) 03:31, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Richard Spencer and Mike Cernovich are not users of Gab. Remove them from the beginning

The beginning of the article includes the following line which cherry-picked ultra controversial people from a big list of the most followed profiles on Gab:

"The site's most followed users include high-profile far-right individuals such as Richard B. Spencer, Mike Cernovich, and Alex Jones."

The problem with this line is that Richard Spencer and Mike Cernovich no longer use gab. They haven't in more than a year. The definition of a "user" is someone who uses something. The online social network industry standard for a user tends to be an "active profile used within the past 30 days" which is what competing sites like Facebook, Twitter, and Whatsapp use. I tried to delete Richard Spencer and Mike Cernovich from this line and added my explanation and someone reverted my edit with no explanation.

Mike Cernovich and Richard Spencer both use Twitter significantly more, but more importantly both people have a vastly significantly larger social reach and influence on Twitter. Cernovich must reach hundreds of millions of views on his tweets. They go viral. He is a very active profile on Twitter and one of Twitters overall most popular pages especially politics-related. Can I Add Mike Cernovich to Twitter's Wikipedia page intro (with the same high profile far right individuals" tagline) if I can prove he's one of twitters most popular political pages? We can all agree social reach activity is significantly more important than inactive follower count on an inactive website profile. I have a feeling adding Cernovich to Twitters page won't be treated fairly and to the same standard.

Megat503 (talk) 05:43, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

@Megat503: Do they still have gab accounts that they could log in to? PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:02, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

@PeterTheFourth: is that the only criteria needed to add a controversial profile to a social networks intro on Wikipedia? Megat503 (talk) 06:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Generally, we rely on reliable sources to highlight what things are worthy of note. This is something our reliable sources discuss. However, if the accounts were closed down or they were somehow removed from Gab, we should of course update the article to note that they are former users. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:10, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

I just feel like that line is incredibly wrong and misleading because they are not users of the site. Having a dormant profile does not equal being a user. Using a site makes you a user Megat503 (talk) 06:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

The source supporting the reference is a peer-reviewed journal showing Cernovich had over 27,000 followers and was a "confirmed" member of the site, and Spencer had over 5,000 followers but was not a confirmed member. However this was in a table of notable users in the journal. I don't think there's any reason to remove this information just because they are no longer active members of the site, which is in any case unverified. SportingFlyer talk 07:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support not because of the definition of being a "user" but because the sources are only two WP:PRIMARY research papers, one of which has a confirmation bias for this information. The other isn't enough for this WP:UNDUE information for the lead, as no other lead sections on a social network article mention users with many followers, even those about social networks whose most-followed users are listed on a separate list article. Gab's most followed users are irrelevant even for the whole article, it looks like. wumbolo ^^^ 17:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

• In what way are they primary? They're peer reviewed papers. SportingFlyer talk 18:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

• The references stay. They're sourced, it's clear, and supports the notion that Gab is an alt-right haven.--Jorm (talk) 18:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
• There is no point to remove them from the lead or the article, other than for some revisionist purposes. Both papers have lists of popular Gab users, with Mike Cernovich mentioned on both. Both names, among names of other far-right individuals appear in numerous media RS about Gab. Gab is extraordinary among social medias in that it actively panders to the far-right, which is why we follow reliable sources to place its prominent users onto the lead. Unless sources say that they left or that they're banned, this sentence and their names shall stay. Tsumikiria (T/C) 07:06, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

they don’t use the site. Your entire argument seems to be “gab panders to the far right.” Do you have any specific detail to support that statement ? Supporting freedom of speech is not “pandering to the far right.” Reddit and twitter at one time supported virtual free speech for many years. Can we add that they “pandered to the far right until right around mid 2015?”Megat503 (talk) 07:11, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Quotes re: "alternative of Twitter" and "champions free speech"

If those terms appear in quotation marks, they need to appear as such in the citation. The citation does not contain those words as such. PaulCHebert (talk) 03:10, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

"Alternative of Twitter" or similar phrasings appear in a number of sources. As for the latter, "champions free speech" is right on their homepage. Tsumikiria (T/C) 03:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Great. Than cite it to one of those, not in a way that makes it appear as though a particular direct quote appears in a source where it does not. PaulCHebert (talk) 03:38, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

The first three citations in history section supports the "alternative of Twitter" statement, although rereading the lead, it appears that your removal of the sentence made it more concise without damage. "champions free speech", although mentioned in sources, is not present in article body, so it isn't enough weight for lead, and we certainly don't have to respect "alternative of Twitter" promotional language. For now I am satisfied with the lead, although my opinion might change. Thanks for your copyedits. Tsumikiria (T/C) 15:24, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Awesome. thanks. PaulCHebert (talk) 17:33, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Who Added the Section on "Jeffrey Clark"?

Problems are several. First the 1st sentence doesn't go anywhere. "He was arrested, blah, blah, blah, the end." Very irritating the Reader. Second given that the narrative is that he was arrested, and a Gab User, it's not noteworthy in an Article on Gab, the social media platform with tens of thousands of Users. Lots of Gab Users, Twitter Users and Facebook Users get arrested, and for a lot worse. Should we start adding mundane arrests of non-notable people to the Articles on Twitter & Facebook? Third, Clark himself isn't noteworthy. He doesn't have a Wikipedia Article. So the upshot is "Some anonymous nobody was arrested for a minor crime and oh yeah, he uses Gab. The subtext of this message (with Wikipedia's voice) is that using Gab is a crime, and only criminals use Gab. You wouldn't want to use GAB, would you? You'll get mentioned on Wikipedia the next time you get a traffic ticket." Fourth I did a search of the history to find out if the inclusion was discussed, and who included it, and I could find no results of a search of the last 500 entries of the keyword "Clark". My understanding of Wikipedia protocol is that some kind of note needs to be made for this express purpose, which then makes me wonder WHO entered this non-noteworthy piece of non-drama, and why they failed to include the searchable text "Clark". Also I find no evidence that it's been discussed. Tym Whittier (talk) 01:36, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources connect Clark to Gab and he is accused of offenses far worse than a traffic ticket. Five such sources are in the article. You can search the article history to find out which editor added this content. Nobody is obligated to discuss the addition of new content, but must discuss it if it is challenged and removed, at least before restoring it. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:54, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

There's no doubt that Clark appears to be the worst type of human detritus, but there's no reason why the arrest of a common criminal and general lowlife is worthy of a long, detailed paragraph in an article about the social media he used. PaulCHebert (talk) 07:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Cullen328, you fail to recognize that so far they are simply accusations. Does everyone accused of grisly crimes deserve entire sections in every “social network Wikipedia page” that the said accused persons participated in or had accounts in? The Boston bomber and the recent pipe bomb mailer both had very active twitter accounts. Can I had entire sections to the Twitter Wikipedia page devoted to these accused bombing suspects? I have a feeling that Wikipedia editors would treat that differently for some odd and biased reason. Either we have uniformed decision making across all pages of all social networks, or there is slanted agenda-based bias being injected into this Gab Wikipedia article. Which one is it?Megat503 (talk) 07:16, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Megat503, of course I realize that this person has not been convicted and if you read my comment again, I have not yet expressed an opinion about whether or not this content should stay. It is worth discussing but the criminal accusation is not equivalent to a traffic ticket. Your comparison to Twitter is also wrong because Twitter is used for a vast range of things while reliable sources report that Gab is used primarily to spread racism, extremism and hate. If you are aware of reliable sources that refute that, please bring them forward here so that we can evaluate them. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:04, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Cullen328 Not one of the reliable sources cited reports that "gab is used primarily to spread racism, extremism and hate". That word "primarily" is editorial commentary from the wiki editor, and not present in the cited document. This defamatory claim should be removed immediately.

• As administrator Cullen328 states, multiple reliable sources connect Clark to Gab and he is accused of serious offenses, and so far five such sources have been added to the article. It's clear to me that this is highly relevant concerning the website, and therefore relevant to this Wikipedia article. Softlavender (talk) 08:41, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

• The paragraph was originally added under Pittsburgh shooting subsection by me, expanded and made into a separate subsection by an IP editor, and then I trimmed it down. Numerous reliable sources connect Clark to Bowers and made detailed profiling of Clark's usage and connections on Gab. And he was widely reported due to, I believe, that his arrest that may have prevented further harm, and the general concern among sources that Gab may have enabled the radicalization of Clark and Bowers. I agree with Softlavender that the paragraph is highly relevant. It shall stay. Tsumikiria (T/C) 23:57, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

"It shall stay." Unless, of course, a consensus builds that it should not. Cuz that's how Wikipedia works, right? PaulCHebert (talk) 01:21, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is how it works, both ways. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 09:02, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Tsumikiria is not a native English speaker. It's possible that he/she meant should stay. Softlavender (talk) 09:30, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Years have passed and the nuances of English still confuse me. Yes, I used it as 'should'. Softlavender, thanks, and I'm comfortable being referred to by 'they'. Tsumikiria (T/C) 12:41, 1 January 2019 (UTC)