Talk:Mark Dice

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 January 2018

Please add this material to the Career section:

"In November 2017, Dice released The True Story of Fake News: How Mainstream Media Manipulates Millions, which discusses the American mainstream media and its alleged bias against US President Donald Trump. The book reached fifteenth place on Amazon's bestseller list." Every875 ^{Talk to me} 02:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

References

 Additional information needed Please provide a link to an independent, reliable secondary source that mentions the book, as well as a link to a reliable source that verifies that the book reached #15 on Amazon's bestseller list. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

 Not done we don't link to Amazon pages as references. Please provide a reliable secondary source commenting on this aspect of his career and demonstrating that the world at large thinks it is important to note. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Failing general notability guideline

I have done WP:BEFORE, and I couldn't find any significant WP:RS coverage in GNEWS, and no coverage whatsoever in other searches. Let me break down Dice's mentions in online sources:

1. Very often sources, admittedly very often very reliable, include a tweet by Dice followed by a very short description of his job and/or his context, usually insignificant. Tweets and Twitter drama are not noteworthy, e.g. failing WP:INDISCRIMINATE, that is why we do not have a "List of tweets by Donald Trump" even though probably nearly all of them are discussed in RS.
2. Not sure but this source might be downplaying Dice's notability: http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-nfls-conspiracy-katy-perry-satanic-witch-illuminati-20150126-story.html
3. We are citing a media criticism organization? Breaching WP:BLP much?
4. I found one more significant source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/whats-next-alt-right-milo-yiannopoulos-mark-dice-plan-new-projects-945250

Disseminating the lead:

1. YouTube personality* — WOW! a shocking FOUR videos by Dice are notable!
2. conspiracy theorist — why do we have the conspiracies backed by Dice listed in the lead sentence? They are very obscurely mentioned in sources and usually only in Dice's tweets and books (see below for books). I would only ever mention them in some section in a comprehensive FA
3. author — three^† RS call him an author. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

* alright, some RS do mention the fact that he has a YouTube channel and does man-on-the-street interviews and vlogs
^† maybe four?

And finally, the only notable things Dice did were uncover one hoax, organize one protest, and send some papers to troops in Iraq. This is my take, and I believe all sources I have not mentioned but currently appear on the article are primary and are not third-party, and can only breach WP:SPSBLP. I don't want to just nominate for deletion and get an extremely heated discussion without achieving anything, especially if my concern of WP:GNG is unsubstantiated. wumbolo ^^^ 11:54, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

• Feel free to nominate for deletion, but someone who has been covered in the NYT and the Guardian is unlikely to be deleted. Re: conspiracy theorist, the NYT discusses him in context of his conspiracy theories as do other reliable sources. It’s kinda why he’s notable. That’s why we have it in the lead. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

This and this (blog?) are the only Guardian articles mentioning him. These mentions are very trivial. "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail I don't see any detail in the Guardian and NYT sources. wumbolo ^^^ 14:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

The source you claim is downplaying Dice's notability is not: Notability is a feature of WP editing and news outlets don't care about it. That source was downplaying his credibility, nothing more. Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting is perfectly acceptable for the BLP claims for which it is used; their accuracy has never been disputed by any other RSes and the worst criticism ever leveled at them is "they lean to the left a bit". The rest of your commentary reads like a newb's WP:IDONTLIKEIT complaint. What you leave out of your commentary is even more telling: References actually used by the article include academic books, noteworthy reviews of Dice's books, articles specifically about Dice, and several more articles that devote significant coverage to Dice. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Are we reading the same article? You say academic books, I see zero books at all in the references, except Dice's and one that only supports two words: conspiracy theorist. noteworthy reviews of Dice's books I don't see any, please tell me which references are reviews. That source was downplaying his credibility then we should address it in the article, or do YOU not like it? several more articles that devote significant coverage to Dice Yes, I agree that Dice is notable for organizing one protest, making four YouTube videos, and sending papers to Iraq. articles specifically about Dice I'm sorry but please be more specific which articles you are referring to here. You cite WP:IDONTLIKEIT; however, I have been checking WP:RSN regularly while reading through the references. For now, I will give you that a "media criticism organization" can be used as a reliable source. Finally, this article is the only reason why I will not nominate this article for deletion, and I forgot to mention it before because I completely skipped over it. wumbolo ^^^ 15:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

If you want to test community consensus here, you are free to open an AfD. If you need help filing, let me know, and I can start it procedurally. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

I see zero books at all in the references, except Dice's and one that only supports two words: conspiracy theorist. See this book, published by Springer Publishing, which is reference #4, and is most certainly not written by Dice. As for the rest which you claim you can't find: they're all in the references section of this article. If you can't be bothered to go through it, then I'm not willing to help further. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: I understand that. I am only saying that it does not demonstrate the subject's notability in the slightest. You say that the references contain noteworthy reviews of Dice's books. I have gone through the references again, and if you think this is a book review, you're very wrong about what a book review is. wumbolo ^^^ 17:27, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

And a books notability is not only created by reviews, wider coverage can also crate notability (which means people have noticed it, it is not a measure of popularity or critical acclaim).Slatersteven (talk) 18:29, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Exactly, I can only find one interview discussing a book by him. wumbolo ^^^ 19:16, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Notability guidelines apply to articles, not content. We only need on source for this book. We only need more then one source discussing Dice to establish his notabilty.19:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Go ahead and nominate the article for deletion, if you must. The result of that will be a wasting of the community's time with no practical change. Binksternet (talk) 15:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Currently I don't have any idea of how this article is supposed to look like when it is improved, so I cannot really say it is lacking. Wasting of the community's time is my big concern, as there were big discussions regarding this article before, and I want to properly present my points. wumbolo ^^^ 15:54, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

If he is not notable AFD it, if he is notable then this is not the right question.Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: notability is based on reliable sources, I am trying to get input on which sources are reliable at all, and then try to formulate whether the article is notable based on those sources. wumbolo ^^^ 16:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Then yes your question was both wrong (this is an RS, not notability question) and in the wrong place. You would have to raise this on the RS board.Slatersteven (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

You're right, this is not the right place for RS discussion. wumbolo ^^^ 17:27, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Again, feel free to take this to AfD for community review. The consensus on this talk page is pretty clear, but raising it to the broader community is always an option. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni: I was not anticipating this volume of opposition, I wanted to possibly WP:PROD the article. The previous notability discussions were ten years ago, and Wikipedia and available sources have changed since. I think we would normally A7 YouTube channels with less than a handful of their videos appearing in RS. I also hoped to easily demonstrate the lack of sources for the self-published books. wumbolo ^^^ 17:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

There's opposition because this article has been subject to frequent attempts at whitewashing, sometimes driven by the subject himself. He's been covered in reliable sourcing, both mainstream books and mainstream press, for some rather negative things: he and his followers don't like that, and wants to impact how the world view him on Wikipedia. Deletion is an easy way to whitewash if the article can't be made positive. This article will not be PRODded (I will remove it if someone else here doesn't first). Again, you are more than free to take it to AfD if you want to test community consensus: that is okay, and it would be a good faith nomination, but this article unquestionably does not qualify from PROD at this time, as it would not be uncontroversial. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:47, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Wumbolo:Did you really think that this was an "uncontroversial deletion" and really expected "no opposition to the deletion"?Slatersteven (talk) 18:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC) Also notability is not temporary, if he was notable 10 years ago he still is.Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Large removals

I object to these removals. Some of the material are primary sources, yes, but those are sufficient for verification purposes, especially if it is for things such as the books he has self-published and what he claims about himself. I think we should restore the material that has been removed. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, there is no valid rational for these removals. No real objection was raised baring a few vague assertions (and now wikilawyering using an essay of all things)Slatersteven (talk) 19:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

This looks like WP:POINTy editing to me: This editor encountered a lot of pushback upon suggesting they might PROD this article, and now seems to be lashing out. Those edits don't even make any sense to me in that there's apparent direction to it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

As he has now walked away we can stop discussing this.Slatersteven (talk) 09:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorist

Perhaps I am not the most impartial person to ask, but the description of Mark Dice in the lead as a conspiracy theorist seems debatable. A quick internet search for mark dice shows various sources describing him as a "right wing commentator" or a "conservative pundit" as opposed to someone like Alex Jones who is called a "conspiracy theorist" which he doesn't deny. Here are some examples from a quick search I did:

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/twitter-suspends-conservative/ https://thinkprogress.org/trolls-fake-starbucks-coupons-racial-slurs-f456ebe52b05/ https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/twitter-suspends-right-wing-commentator-mark-dice-for-saying-transsexualism

The secret societies stuff could perhaps be moved to a new sentence, paragraph or the career section.

Thanks, trainsandtech (talk) 01:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• It is cited to a reliable secondary source. We cover what reliable secondary sources say. This has been discussed many times before. I don't mean to sound flippant, but is he tweeting about us again?
  Also, as for the sourcing, Lifesitenews.com is the exact opposite of a reliable source. Western Journal upon a quick review seems to be a partisan online website. I'm unfamiliar with that reporter at Thinkprogress, but I'm generally not a fan of using them as an RS, so, it seems if those are your best sources you are coming up blank. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's see: The New York Times, in an article about fake news, said, "Mr. Dice has promoted conspiracy theories that the Jade Helm military training exercise last year was preparation for martial law and that the Sept. 11 attacks were an 'inside job'." The assertion is backed by an excellent reliable source. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:37, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Cullen328, would you mind adding that citation to the lead (in addition to the GBooks)? I used the Google Books source the last time it was challenged, because I tend to run out of my NYT views early in the month. I'd agree that NYT is a strong source. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I did so, TonyBallioni. More importantly, there is zero evidence that this person is not a conspiracy theorist, and when reliable sources discuss him, it is pretty much always in the context of his support for some conspiracy theory or another. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. I would agree, and given how much Dice wants this article “corrected” (ctrl+f Jimbo Wales in the history and look at the sources in those diffs...) I’m somewhat skeptical at attempts to white wash it. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorist should be removed from the lede. Sovietmessiah (talk) 04:57, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

You have no leverage if you have no reasoning behind your preference. Binksternet (talk) 05:00, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The leverage given could be considered fake news considering he has beef with the NYT. Should we include that in NYT's lead because others have called them that and gave it leverage? Sovietmessiah (talk) 03:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

If you wish to challenge the status of the New York Times as a reliable source, I encourage you to raise the issue at WP:RSN. I doubt you will get the answer you want. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

This has been gone over plenty of times. High quality reliable sources reference him as such. It’s what he’s known for. It’s what he does. It stays in the lead. NPOV requires we call a spade a spade sometimes. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

He got 100,000 subscribers on 5/19/2013

Under the playbutton section in the infobox it says "???" and after some research I found out that he hit 100k on 5/19/2013.

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2018

The three question marks that are where the date he hit 100k subscribers should be changed to 5/19/2013 or "2013" to fit the format. Alex Microbe (talk) 02:09, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

References

 Done Fish+Karate 12:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Author?

The lede mentions him as an author based on a casual NYT mention as such. Author implies that he wrote books. Is there any source regarding this? Did he write at least one book? Or just texts on his personal website? Someone Not Awful (talk) 03:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

[1].Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

YouTube subscriber count

Mr. Dice has raised an interesting question on twitter. At least some other youtubers have their subscriber and view counts in the first paragraph of their article. I don't personally know what standard practice is in this area, or what general guidelines are used to determine when this data is included or not. I'd like to discuss it.

He also has other concerns about the article and I've invited him for a civil discussion of these issues. I'd like to remind everyone in advance, Mr. Dice included, that our discussions here must be respectful and kind, and that this is not about evaluating in any way whether his ideas are right or wrong or whether anyone likes him or not. It's about whether this Wikipedia entry is well-sourced, neutral, and an appropriate biography which complies with our stringent rules for WP:BLP's.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Jimmy. To the Editors: Why does my page read like my career ended in 2015, when my career exploded at the end of 2016? To anyone who has been following my career, it's obvious this page is outdated and casts me in a negative light. I was the first conservative YouTuber to reach 1 million subscribers (2017). And my last two books were Amazon best sellers. The True Story of Fake News (2017) and Liberalism: Find a Cure (2018) both hit #15 on Amazon's best seller list (of all books, not just in a category).

And the "Controversy" section is just as big as the "Career" section! haha. Look at my YouTube videos from the last few years. They average over 250,000 views per video in the first 24 hours after they're released. I regularly debunk fake news from the mainstream media (remember the BuzzFeed bombshell from a week and a half ago that Robert Mueller's office debunked?) My channel is fun and educational, and very popular among Trump supporters. I think it's unfair that my Wikipedia page doesn't accurately reflect what I do, or the impact that I've been making.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkDice (talk • contribs) 09:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)