Talk:Dutch people

Mainly because many Flemings fled to the safer and free North of the Low Countries during the Eighty Years' War. Dutch culture in turn has influenced Flemish culture ever since the 16th century.

It is an anachronism to speak about Flemings and Flemish in these lines. In those days the term Flemish was used for inhabitants of the County of Flanders (the Belgian provinces West Flanders, East Flanders, the southern part of the Dutch province Zeeland and a region in Northern France). 84.193.165.47 21:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Dutch has never been the dominant language around Cologne. The dialect of Cologne is Low Franconian, just like the neighbouring Dutch dialects. But in Cologne, they have always used German as a standard language. 84.193.165.47 09:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Flemish and Frisian people

I guess Flemish and Frisian people ARE etnically Dutch, just like the Swiss and Austrian peoples are Germans. The border between the Netherlands and Flanders is artificial.

Frisians are certainly not ethnically Dutch. As a Dutchman (from the southern part of the Netherlands) I should know. I think most Frisians would agree. The article about Frisians tells about the decline of Frisian because of Frankish and Saxon (Dutch) encroachment. They speak their own language, which is still spoken by even the young. The language enjoys widespread recognition in Friesland, where it is taught at elementary schools. It is also spoken by the Saterfrisians in Germany. Most Frisians, however, don't desire autonomy and feel very connected to the Dutch state.

As for the Flemish, they have undergone a lengthy struggle to preserve the Dutch language in Belgium. But if they felt Dutch they would eventually have joined the Netherlands. They didn't and a independent Flanders is a prevalent view amongst Flemish nationalists. If Flemings are asked what historical event sets them apart from other people then they would say that it is the Battle of the Golden Spurs and not the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. As I said, I'm from the south of the Netherlands and although people there share some cultural characteristics they aren't the same. The Flemish speak standard Dutch, but it sounds softer then the Dutch spoken in for example South Holland. The difference in pronounciation is immediately noticable if you cross the border. In this sense the border is clearly not artificial. It would be nice if Frisians or Flemings on Wikipedia would voice their opinion on this talk page. --84.26.109.69 07:37, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Frisians are ethnically not Dutch, though closely related. As stated above they do feel very connected to the Dutch state and most of them consider themselves both Frisian and Dutch. The Flemish are ethnically Dutch. The border between The Netherlands and Flanders was an artificial one at the time deviding Brabant and Limburg for instance. Centuries of seperation has created two related but non the less different cultures though. As stated above the way Dutch is spoken by the Dutch and the Flemish also differs. The current Dutch tongue is predominantly influenced by the dialects of Holland whereas those of Flanders is predominantly influenced by the dialects of Flanders and Brabant. In general you can say that the ethnically non-Dutch Frisians see themselves as Dutch, the ethnically Dutch Flemish don't.

Flemish people are not ethnically dutch!!

Before 1560, the low countries were seen as one region - though not one country. Dutch would have meant anyone from the low countries in this period. Most of this region was united by Burgundy and then brought under Spanish rule by the Habsburgs. After the Eighty Years War, the north and south separated and afterwards were artificially reunited only from 1815 to 1830. If the joint history before 1560 is seen as a reason for calling all these Dutch, then Wallonia and the north of France should also be called 'ethnically Dutch'. I don't think this would be correct. Piet 17:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The Fresian people are not Dutch. They are descendents from Saxony in England/Viking times rather than from German expansion. The Flemish people, however, are ethnically the same as the Dutch. Afterall there is the Nederlands-Flaams Taal Unie (Dutch-Flemish Language Union) because they are basically the same. The difference between the groups was stated above: the 80 year liberation war where Belgium was not liberated with the rest of the low countries.--Wesley1610 3:17, 14 June 2006

Some points:

1. Dutch is largely based on the dialects of Brabant, not Holland.
2. Ethnicity is a rather vague concept. Certainly the borders of the Republic in 1648 were in no way ethnic borders, neither the border with the Southern Netherlands nor the borders with the various "German" states. But in the centuries after slowly a national identity developed. So, depending on your definition, you can speak of a different ethnicity. Differences are very minor though.--MWAK 11:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Then why are Limburgers ethnically Dutch? We (people from Limburg) have our own language, in many ways closer to German than Dutch. What then makes us Dutch? And Much of Limburg was formerly part of Prussia / Germany. Before I went to school and learned Standard Dutch (so around age 4 or 5) I could watch television shows in German and understand it equally well or even better than when watching television shows from Amsterdam. What makes Dutchmen and Germans different, and are Limburgers something inbetween? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.27.75 (talk • contribs)

The larger part of the area on which the Limburgish dialect is spoken is much closer to Dutch than German.Hence the Low Franconian classification, it is only in the deep south west of the province where a variant is spoken which is closer to (central) German.

Rex 18:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I hate when people say that about our language when they can't even speak it. People from Sittard, not south limburg,see our dialect much closer to German than Dutch. Only dialects from Venlo are closer to ABN (standard dutch). And the low franconian classification has been largely debated. I am not so in to languages.... but I speak Dutch German and Limburgisch all fluently, and think I am able to compare. And yes, people from the deep south have a dialect closer to High German but, our language is honestly very close to German. And, how is one to say we are Dutch or German? We border Germany, almost everybody I know has a parent / grandparent / or atleast cousin with a parent from Germany. It is not as though the ethnicity changes with the border, Aachen is 20 minutes away from my home. Would somebody from New York not marry someone Newark? After generations of such... we are honestly something inbetween. If one isn't a Limburger, he could never begin to classify us. I agree with the one who said our language is closer to German. Trust the natives

US Statistics

We must realize that the statistics in the US are especially downplayed due to the lengthy Dutch presence so rounding up is safe. Also there are 6 million native Afrikaans in South Africa, not 2 million. 68.215.50.233 09:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe the number is based on the number of Americans who self-identify as (partly) Dutch. According to the United States census of 2004, the number of Americans self-identifying as (partly) of Dutch heritage stands around 5,000,000. That is what ethnicity is all about. Maybe the number of Americans with Dutch ancestry is higher, yes. But that doesn't make them Dutch. The whole idea behind the so-called 5 million Dutch people in the United States is flawed anyway. I do not believe that all these 5 million Americans truly identify as being part of the Dutch nation. A better understanding of Dutch ethnicity and their numbers in the United States is by examining how many Dutch immigrants (Americans born in The Netherlands) are currently living in the United States, examining what their number of children is (who have a higher possibility of self-identifying as Dutch-American) and examining what number of Americans who do not fall into these two categories nevertheless strongly feel a connection to The Netherlands and the Dutch ethnic group (mostly to be found, my guess is, in historically Dutch communities in the states of Michigan and Iowa). I believe that gives a better picture of the 'real' Dutch-American.

As for the 6 million native Afrikaans speakers in South Africa - this number includes whites (not only of Dutch, but also of other ancestral groups), as well as coloureds, Malays and blacks. Just as the Dutch language itself does not say anything about the number of Dutch people living on this planet, nor does Afrikaans tell us that. Rick86 00:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

American people often overrepresent ancestory. I would say that most of those 5 million are not direct Dutch and have been diluted quite a bit. For myself, three or four generations of separation is suffient to say that your ancestory is Dutch but you are not Dutch. Wesley1610 3:24, 14 June 2006

Afrikaans Statistics

Well, but you do know that Afrikaans are only partly of Dutch descent? There ancestry is actually pretty equally split between Dutch, French [Hugenots], Germans and Walloons. See Afrikaners. --Lucius1976 22:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the given number of 5 million people in South Africa being of Dutch descent is false - the number is indeed lower due to the prevalence of Hugenots, Germans, Walloons, Scandinavians and others included into the white Afrikaans-speaking population of South Africa. Rick86 10:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There is not even 5million Afrikaners in South Africa, there is about 2,9 million Afrikaners in South Africa and many of them are as staited before of different background such as French, Wallon and German. �Dr.Poison 11:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Netherlands statistics

13 million Dutch in the Netherlands, of 16 million, so 3 million people in the Netherlands are non-Dutch? That seems wrong. Piet 17:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is supposed to be about ethnically (and culturally) Dutch people, rather than Dutch nationals. Of course, there's no clear definition on what counts as 'ethnically Dutch', leading to problems such as illustrated by other comments on this page. Junes 20:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There are about 3.1 million post war immigrants and descendants in The Netherlands, including the refugees from Indonesia.--MWAK 11:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Also included in the 3 million discrepency is the vast number of refugees let in each year. The Hague has a large Turkish population, for example.--Wesley1610 3:21, 14 June 2006 (EST)

Most asylum seekers are again expelled; the Turkish population of course largely exists of labour immigrants and their descendants.--MWAK 13:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Spinoza and Anne Frank are not ethnically Dutch

I see that we have a new image, which includes Anne Frank and Spinoza. While both may be Dutch in the broader sense of the word, I think it's clear that this article is about ethnically Dutch people. This is of course a highly problematic subject to start with (as evidenced by the comments on this page), but if we stick to this topic then it should be clear that Spinoza and Anne Frank are not 'Dutch' in the sense of this article. I suggest we go back to the original image. Junes 15:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, this should not matter.One was born in the Netherlands, the other wasn't but spend most of her years (and best years) in the Netherlands, both spoke Dutch interacted with the "ethnic" Dutch and I even believe the latter had Dutch grandparents. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 17:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Neither of them were ethnically Dutch and Anne Frank did not have any Dutch ancestry, but possiblly some German. I really believe they should not be included here sincet his article is about ethnic Dutch, not merely citizens or nationals of the Netherlands. Epf 19:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Anne Franks mother was of Dutch ancestry , see Edith Frank-Holländer.

The ethnic part is hard to understand because who defines the line? When does a group of people become an ethnic group? When the country was formed?If that sets the curve then a lot of people who are thought of being German aren't german. Anne frank spoke Dutch fluently, it was far better than her 'native' german, she wasn't by far a bilingual.Afterall, she was only 5 when she arrived in the Netherlands. She once wrote down in her diary: "In die nacht wist ik eigenlijk dat ik sterven moest, ik wachtte op de politie, ik was bereid, bereid zoals de soldaten op het slagveld. Ik wou me graag opofferen voor het vaderland, maar nu, nu ik weer gered ben, nu is mijn eerste wens na de oorlog, maak me Nederlander!"

Spinoza is a Dutch, and not a Portuguese philosopher, he was born and died in the Netherlands, and his first language was Dutch as was his way of thinking.

These two people if it were possible, would answer they were Dutch if one asked them.And they have every right, as they created and/or were an important part of Dutch history.

And a final argument, both were included in the "Grootse Nederlander" contest. ending at place 21 (Spinoza) and 5 (anne frank). Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 19:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding definition: "An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community." Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 20:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This link says that Spinoza's first language was actually Portuguese. I agree with you that there isn't a clear line when it comes to ethnicity. So I would suggest that we pick the more clear-cut cases, to minimize confusion. There are plenty of famous persons that are unquestionably Dutch (on the other hand, the whole idea of a Dutch people as separate from Germans is a pretty recent invention anyway). So why not stick with them? Junes 21:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The idea that Dutch people are separate from German people is some 650 years old.Do you call that recent? Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 21:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Wilhelmus (1572) speaks of 'van Duytschen bloed', doesn't it? Things were much more fluid in those days. The whole idea of nation states is comparatively recent, yes. But anyway, what do you think about my other (on-topic) comments? Junes 08:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think they should stay, both as they belong to the Dutch herritage and, let's be honest, they were Dutch.I can't really believe Spinozas first language was Portuguese although it is of course possible that it was his "home language" when he was young.

Yes, they certainly belong to Dutch history. That does not necessarily make them ethnically Dutch, though. I don't feel very strongly about it, although to me it seems disinformative to place them here, especially when a good alternative image is available. I'll post a notice on the Wikipedia:Notice board for topics related to the Netherlands to see what other people think. Junes 11:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Off topic; Yes, the idea is recent but the states aren't, just look the Netherlands one of the very first true nation states.The wilhelmus is a different story, Duytschen bloed does not refer to the Germans or his place of birth but to him being a man of the (Dutch) people. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 09:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that there was no clear distinction between a 'Dutch' and a 'German' people, like we make today. People identified first and foremost with their direct region. In a wider sense, they saw themselves part of a 'Diets/Duytsch' people, but I'm pretty sure that citizens of Nijmegen had a stronger affiliation with people from, say, Kleve, than with people from Amsterdam. Junes 11:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ehm, well that depends on what age we're talking about.Also, I believe they still speak Low Franconian dialects around Kleve? A big part of the Low Rhine area used to be Dutch speaking ... but I know what you mean, but it depends on the age... 14th century? Yes most probably but the 16th century?No I don't think so. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 12:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, some may speak those dialects around Kleve, but they are still distinct from the languages/dialects spoken in the Netherlands. I also disagree that all people identified first and foremost with their region, and even the ones who did, they would still also strongly identify based on their ethnic origins/descent. Anne Frank apparently does have some small Dutch ancestry on her mother's side, but Spinoza did not and I'm positive Spinoza would identify ethnically as Portuguese (most Portuguese I know maintain strong connections with their homeland), even though he may have considered himself also Dutch in the sense he lived there and spoke the language. Overall, this article is for those Dutch of native/ethnic Dutch ancestry. Epf 19:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

• I meant to say in fact that Spinoza was a Portuguese-Jew, so he may not have had any Portuguese ancestry, but he was certainly Jewish and not of any Dutch descent. Epf 19:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is about an ethnic group called the Dutch.It takes the ethnic group in the broadest sense and in that sense both were Dutch. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 20:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

broadest sense ? it is about the dutch as an ethnic group, meaning those dutch who are of native dutch origins. If you include spinoza, you can include anyone who was born in the the Netherlands or who can speak Dutch. They are not descended from native inhabitants of the Netherlands. Epf 20:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but I was under the impression that the Netherlands is just a bunch of lines on a map and within those lines they speak Dutch.Could you tell me the objective difference between a person thinking and speaking Dutch but with parents born between those lines and a person without parent born between those lines?

Could you tell me the difference in DNA or appearence between a Dutchman, Frisian,Fleming,Englishman, German or any European really? No you can't.

That means being Dutch has nothing to do with race and is not inheritable and thus means "being Dutch" is taught after birth.Anne Frank and Spinoza WERE DUTCH. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 20:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Who said anything about race ? Just because ethnicity is largely based on descent and kinship obviously doesn't make it "race". In fact, there have been studies on Y-chromosome, MtDNA or other lineages showing differences between Dutch, Germans, English and other Europeans and I can tell you there are verying differences in appearance between many European groups (even if less noticeable then that between larger "racial" groupings) and I could point this out if you and I selected some photos.

Being "Dutch" is different from being "ethnically Dutch" and ethnicity is based largely on your heritage and varying traits which you inherit from such. Also, the Netherlands is not "just a bunch of lines drawn on a map" and that is an ignorant statement to the Dutch people and their history and culture. Political boundaries do not necessarily reflect ethnic boundaries. Look at the Frisians and the Basques for example, they don't even have a political entity with borders. The borders of the Netherlands reflect somewhat the territory thats long been occupied by the Dutch (and Frisian) people and their respective culture/language.

I dont know what "thinking" Dutch means, but there are varying degrees of differnce between those Dutch who long trace their descent to native Dutch people and those who are of non-native origins. Spinoza and Anne Frank were Dutch nationals and citizens, but they were not ethnic Dutch (Anne Frank is arguable though if she indeed was of Dutch descent), especially Spinoza who traced none of his family roots to the Netherlands or the native Dutch people and was in fact a Portuguese-Jew. Epf 21:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter how far this ancestry goes. Spinoza was on Dutch paper money and ANne Frank was one of the most important Dutch writers of the 20th century. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 21:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, what does that have to do with "ethnic Dutch" people ? They were both Dutch nationals and citizens who were part of Dutch history, but that does not mean they were ethnically Dutch and they are not considered as such by many, including themselves. Anne Frank was Jewish and so was Spinoza and they are just as much as part of Jewish history and culture as of the Netherlands. I don't know the details of Anne's parentage, but Spinoza was not of any Dutch heritage/descent. I am not speaking as much about how far back the ancestry goes, but who they trace their ancestry to. Spinoza traces all of his heritage to non-indigenous Dutch, (and in fact his parents weren't even from the Netherlands, being Portuguese-Jewish immigrants). Epf 22:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

And I again ask you. What is Ethnic Dutch?! When did a Frank become a Dutchman? When did a Germanic people become the Franks and when did a bunch of indo europeans become the Germanic people? Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 22:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Again you ask me ? Umm, this is the first you've asked this question. Those divisions happened thousands of years ago, and the Dutch people are descended from a mixture of both Franks and earlier Celtic/pre-Celtic tribes (Belgae). I don't understand what this has to do with what we were discussing, but the culture and language of the Frankish tribes (with earlier regional influences) in what is now Holland is what largely became that of the "Dutch" peoples (i.e. including Flemings). Epf 23:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, exactly.

Those people laid the foundation for what was to become the culture and language of those people.But do you honestly every Dutch person has Frankish blood? I suppose the only thing that's really universally inherited from the Franks and that's language and culture and that's someone you can (and are) taught, not born with. Therefore A. Frank and B. Spinoza are Dutch. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 08:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

the Germanic and pre-Germanic people which became the Dutch created what would become the culture, language and identity of the Dutch people. Also, yes you can learn or be taught aspects of langauge and culture, but much is also something you gain from inheritance from your ancestors/family (socially). There are other ethnic traits than culture and language, including familial ties and traditions, behavioural traits, and of course phenotypic/genotypic traits. Also, I don't know how much the Dutch descend from the Frnaks, but yes ethnic Dutch do all trace most of their descent to either the Franks, or celtic/pre-celtic peoples (Belgae). Epf 00:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh please this article is about the native inhabitants of the Netherlands and the Dutch as an ethnic group in the broadest sense. Everything you said CAN and IS taught after birth, you do not inherited them before birth. It is complete nonsense that the Dutch have certain phenotypic/genotypic traits uniquely theirs, no ethnic group on earth can claim that. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 15:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is about the Dutch as an ethnic group and by how that term is defined. There are numerous personality traits which have been shown to be biologically inherited, but I do agree much is taught after birth (if not most) from those closest to you in your family, hence your ancestors (i.e. kinship and descent) and thus is inherited at varying degrees socially, not just biologically. The Dutch may not have traits which are uniquely theirs and few groups actually claim such, though there are some (eg. the bushmen and san of South Africa, or even many ethnic Basques in Europe). The Dutch do however have certain traits which are characteristic of all or most ethnic Dutch, which also may are in different combinations in other northern European ethnic groups or populations. There is much more to phenotypic diversity than simply pigmentation of skin, eyes or hair, there's also stature and body frame, as well as (and since being the least variable, the most important in physical anthro.) cranio-facial traits. Epf 02:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

No, this article was about the people of the Netherlands. (You changed the intro a while ago)

But even if you were right, it's still is wrong in the modern sense as human populations became more mobile, another type of ethnic group arose, most closely associated with the evolution of the state ("country"), as the opportunity to procreate outside the old kinship systems presented itself. Invasion, migration, and pan-ethnic religions have contributed to a further evolution of new ethnic groups out of the mixture of older ethnic groups. At the same time, ethnic distinction can persist, even within the bounds of a single country as long as members of an ethnic group procreate primarily among themselves, for various reasons.

And in that sense, the 2 are Dutch and should be included. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 15:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Acutally, that merely justifies why they should not be included here. That type of ethnic group is not what the ethnic Dutch are, who are indigeonus to the Netherlands. The evolution of those ethnic groups still does not remove the fact that the groups which people like the ethnic Dutch descend from are still indigenous and not of foreign or separate descent, as is the case with Anne Frank and Spinoza. The type of ethnic group that arose with the country is rare and generally not seen in Europe, with the exception of Germany in the 20th cent. where one could only be a German citizen if he/she was an ethnic German also. However, even there now, the separation and distinction between ethnicity and nationality is being made. So, from your section above copied from the ethnic group article, the two are not ethnic Dutch and should not be included. Information on Dutch residents, nationals or citizens can be seen on demographics of the Netherlands. This article is and always has been about the Dutch ethnic group. Epf 18:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No the 2 came by migration, (although Spinoza was born here) and they mixed completely with the Dutch population which was a nation state even in Spinozas time.They are Dutch and should be included. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 20:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, they came by migration and are of foreign descent. They are Dutch nationals, but they are not ethnic Dutch and therefore should not be included on this page. Just because it was a natoin state, doesn't mean everyone there was ethnic Duch just because they were a citizen. It wasn't the same as what was seen in Germany. Also, they may have assimilated many aspects of Dutch culture and language, but they also had many non-Dutch ethnic traits from their own Jewish and Pourtuguese-Jewish ethnic origins, especially Spinoza. Epf 20:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys ths seems a senseless revert war. As the page is now I see four images. One of which is definitely NOT Dutch (William of Orange; born in Germany raised in Orange(France) and Brussels). As such Spinoza is more Duthc (born in Amsterdam from parents who came from antwerp - Portugal). You might want to doubt 'Dutchness' of van Gogh as he was more of a French impressionist, so I would not support him. But to be honest, although I thin that Anne Frank gave a very compelling view of a young inhabitant of the Netherlands in a war, I doubt whether we should put her up. If we put up a commander I would suggest Michiel de Ruyter (born in Flushing), for an artist I would think of Rembrandt van Rijn, or Johannes Vermeer, thanof van Gogh. There are 2 scientist up now (Lorentz and Huygens) which are both suitable; but to be honest, one scientist is enough (... ;-) this remark coming from one). So perhaps we can put up a statesman. Perhaps a contemporary would be nice, e.g. Wim Kok. That way we cover history as well as occupation. Is this a direction?? Arnoutf 21:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I like your direction, although I really think someone as famous as van Gogh should definitely remain and he was Dutch, born and raised in North Brabant and of Dutch descent. I also support a modern example and some examples from other professions. Johan Cruyff would be ideal for an athelete (best footballer ever in my opinion), and maybe an actor/actress, a military commander or a statesman as well. Epf 07:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

"Pelé was the best, but after him comes Johan. He is the best player Europe ever produced" -- Franz Beckenbauer

File:The Dutch.PNG

>>Exactly, they came by migration and are of foreign descent. They are Dutch nationals, but they are not ethnic Dutch and therefore should not be included on this page.<<

The Netherlands are a country in Europe.In Europe everybody migrated wether by war, famine or just for the sake of it for over 2000 years.From Franks to Jews to Bosnians.They intermix.The Netherlands were thé most open country when it came to migration in Europe during the 16th 17th and the 18th century.

So how on earth can you claim, there is 1 single Groups of Ethnic Dutch people? It's impossible. These people are Dutch. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 09:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, Rex, you really do not know much about European history or ethnicity in general. "Everybody migrated" ? What does this mean ? Of course humans have migrated in history but what does this have to do with ethnic Dutch ? There has been verying degrees of intermingling between groups, but they still are from separate geographic regions and for the most part remain to be relatively endogomous populations. The creation of ethnic groups like the Dutch is a result in part of the merging of groups many centuries ago and the group has remained largely of this descent since that time. Recent migrations of non-indigenous groups have not had the same demographic impact or level of intermingling with the native population. There IS one group of ethnically Dutch people (with smaller regional identities) who trace a common ethnic origin to the time of the very basis of early Dutch identity and ethnicity. The fact you make such a claim as "its impossible" demonstrates to me that you don't know what you are talking about on this matter. Read up on what ethnicity, ethnic origin and kinship and descent are first. Spinoza and Anne Frank are Dutch, but they are not ethnic Dutch and did not consider themselves such, especially Spinoza. Epf 10:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you read this: In the modern sense as human populations became more mobile, another type of ethnic group arose, most closely associated with the evolution of the state ("country"), as the opportunity to procreate outside the old kinship systems presented itself. Invasion, migration, and pan-ethnic religions have contributed to a further evolution of new ethnic groups out of the mixture of older ethnic groups. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 10:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Again though, you misunderstand what you read. It is speaking about how some ethnicities affiliated with the rise of the nation-state where in order to be a citizen of that country, like Germany in the 20th cent. you also had to be a member of that ethnic group (Japan is a current example). That explanation is quite ambiguous overall, but it is also referring to how older groups merged with newer incoming waves to form the basis for modern groups liek the Dutch who still descend from the merging of such groups (in the case of the Dutch, the pre-Celtic/Celtic Belgae and the Germanic Franks). In any case, that excerpt from the ethnic group article doesnt conflict with the definiton of ethnicity being based on common kinship and descent. The fact that many people born in the Netherlands who still consider themselves ethnic Arabs, Berbers, Portuguese, etc. or of non-Dutch ethnic origin as well as being Dutch proves my point. Epf 10:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

And what do you think the Netherlands are? Some tribe with borders? The Netherlands were perhaps the first true nation state originating in the 16th century. What's the difference between Germans and Portueguese mixing with "the Dutch population" and Franks, Frisian,Batavians or what else mixing? Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 11:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

"Tribe" with borders ? How do you think that nation-states came into existing, just out of nowhere ? The political boundaries of most European nation states reflect in varying degrees the native habitat of the majority ethnic group in that region. Frisians mixing with the Dutch population is still the same mixing of non-Dutch as Germans or Portuguese, except that they are obviously more cloesly related to the Dutch. You misunderstand my discourse above though, especially with regards to the Franks and Batavians (i.e. Dutch) since the Franks are part of the original ancestors of ethnic Dutch, along with the celtic/-pre-celtic Belgae people. These two groups merged many centuries ago, long before the independence of the United Netherlands to form the basis for Dutch identity and culture as well as the ethnic Dutch people. Epf 08:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You evaded the question.Besides that, it doesn't matter if some ancestor of yours was a frank 1000 years ago.That's isn't going to make you more Dutch than someone who had a Saxon or Gothic ancestor some 1000 years ago.Being Dutch is tought to you, not inherited. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 09:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, again, you misread what is right in front of you. How did I evade the question ? I pointed out that your question itself didnt make any sense and you just proved that again by speaking of so-called "Gothic" and "Saxon" ancestors who did not form Dutch ethnic origins. Your simply incorrect here, again, with "Being Dutch is tought to you, not inherited." Having aspects of being Dutch is in part because of your surrounding environment and community of residence, but being ethnic Dutch isnt. Being ethnically Dutch IS inherited, whether through biologically inherited traits such as phenotypes and genotypes, or socially inherited traits from your familial ancestors like family traditons, behavioural/personality traits, and cultural traits associated with family/upbringing. These have been passed down through families from generation to generation. Ethnic Dutch are primarily descended from a mixture of pre-celtic/celtic Belgae peoples and Franks and that distinct indigenous descent does differentiate ethnic Dutch people from Dutch people of non-native descent. You are beginning to make a pointless argument. Hopefully this article is unlocked soon. Epf 11:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a Dutch genotype.But watch now:

Anne Franks mother had Dutch herritage, the Frank family had lived in Frankfurt for generations, Frankfurt (the name says it) was an area inhabited by mostly Franks. Now, Dutch people are mainly of Frankish decend, and the people there are too. The only difference being the difference in culture, like language and values but Anne Frank had both as she grew up in the Netherlands.According to you, this makes here ethnicly Dutch doesn't it? Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 11:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

No, there is no such thing as a uniquely "Dutch" genotype/phenotype, but there is a combination of genotypes and phenotypes characteristic of indigenous ethnic Dutch. I do not know the history of her mothers origins, but I believe she was also Jewish and therefore not native to Germany (unless she had German descent, which I think is the case). I really don't know how much ethnic German descent Anne Frank or her mother had, but they could be considered ethnic Germans as well as ethnic Jews (although I'm sure many Germans would disagree with me on that). The Dutch people are again a mixture of Franks and celtic/pre-celtic Belgae peoples (the original inhabitants of the area known as Belgium). Germans, especially those in Frankfurt do descend in part from Franks, but also from other groups separate from the Dutch (the native Germans of Frankfurt for example do not descend at all from the Belgae). The differences in ancestry/origins of the regions reflects in part the difference in culture, which again is acquired through family inheritance as well as from the surrounding community/society. Epf 12:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You seem to like to repeat "a mixture of Franks and celtic/pre-celtic Belgae ", one time is enough Epf, I'm not a retard. Celtic and pre celtic tribes inhabited the area around Frankfurt, actually the whole of middle and southern Germany was.It's more than possible Celt lived in frankfurt , perhaps even Belgea. You did not answer my question Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 12:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't answer a question that is inaccurate and doesnn't make sense, prehaps if you were nice enough to re-word it. Also, celtic tribes did inhabit the area around Frankfurt, but not for as long as in the Low countries and not the same tribes as the Belgae. Also, pre-celtc peoples of the Low countries who mixed with invading Celts to become the Belgae, were not the same as those in Frankfurt or most other areas of Germany. Also remember the Franks themselves were a broad group of peoples and also that other Germanic peoples inhabited the area of Frankfurt, long before Germanic peoples conquered the territory of the Belgae. Epf 12:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but are you aware of the position of the Netherlands? Because when Julius ceasar conquered the belgea there were already Germanic people in the Netherlands. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 13:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Trying to summarise....

The debate seem to center about the issue whether being typically Dutch is

• Ethnically hereditary (possibly going back to the Franks)
• Can be adopted voluntarily (after migration).

Both have their point in favour AND set-backs. Adopting the first line of reasoning, indeed Anne Frank and Spinoza should not be listed as Dutch. BUT neither should William of Orange (German). Probably even the currenct Queen would not qualify (father-German, grandmother-(mothers'side) also German); so she is (at most) 1/4 Dutch. Her children only 1/8. Following this argument strictly the royal family SHOULD be excluded. Strictly adopting the second line of reasoning may also have some strange results. Kalou (although he has given up now) may have become Dutch; as he wanted to be Dutch to paticipate in the FIFA worldcup with the Netherlands. A lot of nationalised mediteranean immigants do also qualify. The argument does go the other way around as well. Persons that have distanced themselves from Dutch birth should no longer be counted Dutch. This might include Van Gogh (to France), Hugo Grotius, Erasmus (who was more of a pan-european and not very proud of his Dutch birthplace). As a compormise to overcome the stalemet, I would suggest a definition following the lines of the Netherlands government that states that to be ethnically Dutch you both your parents were born in the Netherlands; (and you yourself have the Dutch nationality, otherwise there is no point). Note that this does exclude Spinoza and Anne Frank, but allows 3rd generation immigrants (grandparents migrate, parents born in Nl). Arnoutf 14:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if Anne Frank and Spinoza aren't "Ethnically Dutch" or as Epf would say of "Frankish and/or celtic/pre-celtic (Belgae) descend".They are still considered to be Dutch by the overall majority of the population.Spinoza was a Dutch citizen and Anne Frank wanted to become one. I'm willing to compromise by adding an explanation to the image, but no further. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 14:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to offer ways out of this obivous stalemate. I am afraid adding a line to the photo's might not be enough of a 'compromise' to some of the others. I think we have to decide what we consider Dutch on this page FIRST, without going into the (evidently) senstivie issue of photo choice. After we have reached consensus on that issue we can compare the choice of photo's against that definition. So I would ask people discussing here (including myself) to stop referencing to the currecnt photo choice. For now I would like to suggest the following definition:

• People are considered Dutch, if they are a citizen of the Netherlands and both their parents were born in the Netherlands.

Arnoutf 15:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• That is what characterizes Dutch nationals or how to obtain Dutch citizenship, not the ethnic Dutch. See, I do not agree that Frank and Spinoza are considered "Dutch" by the majority of the population, and even if it was the case most would be speaking in terms of nationality and/or place of residence or birth, not ethnicity since its widely known Frank was a German-Jew and Spinoza was of only Portuguese-Jewish heritage (and parents who were not from the Netherlands). Read the article, it has barely anything to do with Dutch nationals or citizens, but rather native Dutch culture and peoples origins. Also, yes at the time of Caesar, there were Germanic tribes in Belgica, but the people prior to their arrival were still celtic/pre-celtic. Epf 21:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity has beyond birth a lot to do with membership in a cultural group, unless you are on a eugenics path. Point is, most people outside Netherlands equate at least Anne Frank as being representative of the Dutch culture, and is perceived (outside NL) as representing the very best qualities of 'Dutch'. Spinoza also considered as a Dutch philosopher. Yes, 'ethnic' is a birth/nature thing, but it is also a cultural/nurture thing. To quible about two people who happen to be part Jewish when as stated above the Queen gets to stay in spite of being half German seems to me to be cavilling at best, nationalism at worst. In terms of the historical boundaries and origins of nation states in the area, Davis' 'History of Medieval Europe' is not a bad primer. Bridesmill 22:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A remark to Epf - That both parents were born in the Netherlands is the current definition of the Dutch statistics agency (CBS) of autochtoon (local Dutch) and has nothing to do with achieving citizenship. The focus on judaism by many parties in this debate seems both irrelevant and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That Spinoza was from portugese descent (and Anne Frank German) may be relevant; whether they were jew is (IMHO) not. The franko-typical definition of ethnic Dutch proposed earlier clearly does not work. In my opinion for two reasons (I overstate to make the point):

• 1st This is not limited to Dutch people; e.g. France and Germany and Danes might also qualify as ehtnic Dutch.
• 2nd Descendant of Roman settlers/pre celtic Germanic tribes would not qualify even if they can trace their lineage back to about 0 AD.

I agree with Bridesmill that ethnicity is both a birth and a cultural thing. My suggested definition (People are considered Dutch, if they are a citizen of the Netherlands and both their parents were born in the Netherlands) has parts of both (birth through parents and culture through the choice to get or maintain Dutch citizenship) in it. But if anyone else can come up with a clear alternative that is reasonable to all parties in this debate I would be the first to agree. So please come up with another reasonable idea. Arnoutf 17:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Epf that ethnicity is largely a descent thing and the traits associated or passed down with such. Living in a culture or being born in a certain area does not make you automatically the same culturally as others living there or of the same ethnic origins/descentas the others. Also, I really do think the Dutch (and of course us Flemish) are the only people who can claim to be descended from Franks and the celtic Belgae. The Danish are "100% Germanic", descended from Iron Age Germanic invaders and those few peoples who inhabited the area before their arrival. 69.157.126.241 00:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ghum, excuse me when I say "100% Germanic" sounds somewhat odd. Rex 00:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I mean that in the sense they trace all their heritage (in terms of culture and language) to the original Iron Age Germanic peoples. 69.157.126.241 00:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Right ...

Rex 00:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Just stating the facts. Their language is Germanic, their culture is Germanic and they trace their history and heritage solely to those Germanic Iron Age invaders of the Halstatt culture. 69.157.126.241 01:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the 21st century, there is no such thing as 100% Germanic culture or language (let alone people) the migration period is gone. I don't know what you believe or what you want to believe but this is quite sick. Rex 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Mankind is basicaly one race, I doubt whether you would find a single Dutch person who can trace all his/her ancestors to the Germanic-Belgae iron age (i.e. never any interbreeding with Romans, Saxons or other Vikings, Southern European (traders, minstrels, missionaries), German-Habsburg-French or other soldiers, Indonesion (or other former colonies), etc, etc, etc. In any case the Dutch royal family is not Dutch according to your definitions. Such a rigorous definition (tracing back to Iron Age) may fly (although I seriously doubt it) for an isolated tribe, but I don't think it will work for an internationally oriented culture such as the Dutch. Arnoutf 07:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Imagine how the danes would look if what you say was true ... after 3000 years of inbreeding. Rex 13:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Error in the page

It's a pitty this page is protected, because I just wanted to fix a grammatical mistake but can't:

Dutch people were forced to work together to rebuilt their country, which was almost completely destroyed and without resources around mid 1945.

When it should be

Dutch people were forced to work together to rebuild their country, which was almost completely destroyed and without resources around mid 1945

Kyle sb 14:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Done, as this is a housekeeping task, not changing the content. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Religion of the Dutch

Hi all, I saw some recent reverts on the religion of the Dutch people. I think we all agree that Chirsitanity is important. However the majority seems not to actively belief in God so this group should alsobe mentioned. The current phrase Atheism may however be a bit confusing as this may indicate the narrow sense of atheism (an active disbelief in god). Perhaps the phrase nontheism (although a less well known term) captures the dominant religion in the Netherlands better. So I suggest to replace atheism by nontheism. If no one object I'll do that in about a week. Arnoutf 12:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a real problem with putting nontheism as one of the "beliefs" of the Dutch ethnic group. However ... the article on nontheism describes nontheism as follows: " ... is the absence of belief in both the existence and non-existence of a deity (or deities, or other numinous phenomena)..." Saying that a majority of the Dutch ethnic group is nontheistic because they do not belong to a church (although I am primary talking about those Dutch living in The Netherlands) might not be true. Not so long ago I read somewhere in a Dutch newspaper that many Dutch who are not affiliated to a church nevertheless do have a bond with spirituality and the supernatural (especially among the younger generations), or with Christianity on a whole. So people who do not appear in the Dutch census as being part of a church, do not have to be nontheistic either. But as I said at the start of my comment, I do not have a problem with putting nontheism as one of the "beliefs" in the Netherlands. But it must be clear that not being affiliated to a church does not make people automatically nontheistic. Rick86 14:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand: being affliated to a church does not make people automatically theistic. People are already automatically registered as being related to a church when at least one of the parents is baptized as a baby. In the Dutch Reformed Church for example a lot of people don't even know that they are still registered as being a member. SietskeEN 15:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That's entirely true as well. I myself am a lapsed Catholic - I'm Catholic because I was baptised as a Catholic when I was a baby, but I am far from religious. Same goes for probably a lot of Catholics in the Netherlands. Rick86 20:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Does nontheism work to describe it? I wouldn't say that we don't believe. Most people (or younger people like myself) that I affiliate with believe in some sort of higher power but what for one... no body bothers to care or knows for sure. Would we not then be agnostic?

question

i would like to see more in this article about dutch people such as the culture, population density, diversity within the country etc

That's not a question, just a remark. Nevertheless I'm sure it will be fixed soon. You could even do it yourself. Rex 11:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

lol how very right you are :P

Question to User:Ulritz

What's the problem User:Ulritz? Why are you making those changes? What drives you? Rex 22:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Instead of solving the apparent problem on the talk page User:Ulritz has instead chosen to ignore the talk page discussion and continue edit warring, from what I've seen and experienced personally this is his standard procedure.

Nevertheless, he removed a perfectly fine picture (Why?!) and removed important information on certain ethnic groups speaking a Germanic language. And all of this was explained as followed:

"yeah, conventions, look around and stop acting up, stray info removed"

Conventions.

Which?

Rex 22:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• This article doesnt deal with Gaels/Celts and is irrelevant.
• Show me another article with 12 people squished in.

Wonder how many people gave up reasoning with you after such a wholesale load of trolling? Ulritz 22:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Again User:Ulritz has reverted, again without consulting the talk page, not showing any intend of solving this matter in a civil manor. This is sadly proven by his edit summary: "rv troll". Rex 22:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In general I think it is way to harsh to accuse Rex of trolling; I am convinced he is making the best possible edits ad actively tries to improve Wikipedia articles. On the other hand Rex takes changes to edits sometimes very personally and sometimes reacts a bit overaggressive; which may (understandably) lead to overreactions from others. Sadly such reactions will not help improving the articles, and may even lead to a worse article (rev wars; temporarily blocks on editing for the article etc.) So please (both of you) try to solve this a bit more politely and diplomaticly. Thanks Arnoutf 07:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Ulritz needs to learn that what he says has concequenses, not only the offensive things, but also his "explanatory" edit summaries. Let me tell you this, there is not a single "convention" or wikipedia policy on how many people in a picture is the limit. Therefore removing the picture saying "conventions" is ridiculous. Removing it again, when knowing a talk page discussion awaits who has just shown that there are no "conventions", while calling someone a troll is just plain crap. Also, would he like to explain why he removed some extremely important information of the Irish?! I doubt it. Rex 10:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I must say I have no idea why you might think it important that the article on the Dutch should contain general information about the Irish or Welsh. It seems completely pointless. On similar grounds, you could insist on mentioning the fact that the Yakuts qualify as a Turkic tribe and the Fula people belong to the Atlantic-Congo phylum. That said, you should both avoid edit-warring and name-calling. dab (ᛏ) 11:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

there should also be no talk of "feelings of association" unless a sociological study can be unambiguously cited. Otherwise you seem just to be airing your own feelings, which needless to say won't do. dab (ᛏ) 11:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If those people aren't a "Germanic people" thenshould be allowed to say this. But the main problem for me is him removing an image with the most lame edit summary I've ever seen. Rex 12:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Can we add that the dutch are supposed to be the world's tallest people on average?

or would this be considered trivial information? it would be nice though and it is well documented around the web.

What is an ethnic group

As the discussion (especially on Anne Frank and Spinoza) has re-emerged I copy here the Wikipedia definition of ethnic group. An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community.

In other words the core of this definition is that it is about a human population whose members identify with each other. The presumed common genealogy is not given as a prerequisite but as an often used idea. Thus following this definition to the letter both Anne Frank (who lived and felt a Dutch girl) and Spinoza (who was more Dutch than anything else) are both Dutch. Even more so than e.g. Erasmus who did not identify with his Dutch roots. So this definition does support Anne Frank and Spinoza as Dutch. Arnoutf 20:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.

Rex 20:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The common genealogy which is presumed, and in the vast majority of cases actual, IS a prerequisitie in ethnic identification. Along with other shared socio-cultural traditions, it is one of the main defining factors in ethnicity and to debate this is simply ludicrous. Anne Frank lived and felt a "dutch girl" ? Spinoza was more Dutch than anything else ? What do you mean by this ? What references do you have to claim this ? Did you know them personally ? You are saying they both frowned on their Jewish heritage ? Thats simply ignorant and unfounded. Erasmus did not identify with his Dutch roots ? I have never heard of such a claim, but even if he did in part, being Dutch is still part of who he is and where he comes from and that isnt changed simply on a whim because of ones feelings. The definition of an ethnic group (i.e. the classical one which is also contemporary, not everyone supports assimilationism or ethnic nihilism like you Rex) would in fact not support Anne Frank or Spinoza to be included as part of indigenous ethnic Dutch. They are Dutch nationals, but not ethnic Dutch. Since they are of non-Dutch origins/heritage, they also would have many traditions, traits and cultural aspects that would distinguish them from indigenous ethnic Dutch in The Netherlands. I'm not going to violate the 3RR, but they will be removed from the article tomorrow. I also was not shouting at "you" Rex, but I merely pointed out it was in fact you who needed to look more into what constitues ethnicity. Ciao, Epf 02:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that following some accounts the shared genealogy IS a prerequisite. However if you read the definition from Wikipedia carefully (provided by me above), this specific definition does not!

On your further accounts, I am not happy at all that you use a religious group membership as a possible argument against Ethnic Group. Do you argue that as the Netherlands have always been either protestant or catholic we should also say all atheists cannot be ethnic Dutch? Furhtermore

Anne Frank had Dutch friends, spoke and wrote in Dutch and hoped to stay in the Netherlands. I interpret this as interpretation of a Dutch identity

Spinoza cam from portugese jewish lineage. However, he himself was raised in the Netherlands, and did not plan to go abroad. His philosophy created alot of problems with the Jew society. But in the 16th/17th century for Dutch as a culture it is not easy to give a unified definition. Groningers, Frisians??

Erasmus has complained in several letters (for example written to Thomas Moore) how he did not want to identify with the small village mentality in Holland.

Summarising - using the Wikipedia definition of ethnic group; Spinoza and Anne Frank are not necessarily excluded. Please provide a full, referenced, definition on this page and argue why this supports your point before removing them. Arnoutf 09:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I can tell you now already that if you remove them again, I will revert your edits. I added a note, which according to the definition isn't even necessary, and frankly that's going to be it.

As we go ... It is pretty well known that Erasmus viewed himself as a "world citizen" rather than a Dutchman, in fact he looked down upon his origin. Spinoza didn't have that problem, and who could blame him? He was living in the worlds most liberal and prosporous country. As for Anne Frank, well she makes it quite clear in her diary who she likes and dislikes; and let me tell you that her countrymen (germans) weren't exactly at the top of her list.

Rex 09:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• First and foremost: Arnoutf, the Wikipedia definition of ethnic group does require common descent (obviously) along with other factors so I don't know what you are talking about with regards to my definition not meeting "Wikipedia's definition of an ethnic group" (the academic definition is what is needed, not the POV of users like you and Rex). Also, I am not speaking about being Jewish merely on the grounds of Judaism, but in terms of Jewish ethnicity. For example, Einstein was an ethnic Jew, but himself did not adhere to Judaism.

Anne Frank may have enjoyed living in the Netherlands and spoke Dutch, but that does not mean she is ethnic Dutch since she is not of Dutch descent and therefore did not have many traits associated with such descent.

Spinoza was born in the Netherlands, but was a first generation Portuguese Jew and obviously had many cultural traits of this heritage not shared by indigenous ethnic Dutch in the Netherlands. Also, by the 16th/17th century, Dutch culture was fairly unified, epsecially since it was at this time that the Dutch Republic itself had emerged as a fully independent state. You shoud also remember that Frisians are obviously a separate ethnic entity from the Dutch and have been so since long before the 16th century.

Just because Erasmus did not identify with the "small village mentality" in Holland never meant he refused to acknowledge is Dutch heritage or ethnic origins.

I do not need to provide any more references than that which is provided in the definiton of an ethnic group here on Wikipedia. We are speaking in terms of ethnicity here, not being born in or raised in a certain national or regoinal culture. Just because you are born somewhere or raised in a certain national culture or region, it does not negate your own familial ethnic heritage and culture which may be distinct from it.

Rex: I've never read anywhere that Erasmus looked down upon his family heritage or ethnic origins, but even if he did "look down" upon it, he never denied it as part of who he was and where he came from. As for Anne Frank, of course she disliked the Germans in WW2, since any ethnic Jew in Europe understandably would have. Epf 21:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the Wiki definiation requires common descent; actually these words do not at all appear at the ethnic group article. So I stick with my question/demand to you (Epf) to come up with a clear and generally accepted definition that supports your point of view; or at least explain to me how you interpret Wikipedia definitions. As you are evidently sure the academic definition will support your point of view; please provide it to me; with an unambiguous and fair explanation, so I can either agree or disagree. Currently I still read the wiki definition as "An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other" - Full stop (the rest is usually etc.). Thus anyone who feels Dutch may be included. By the way, yes the Frisians can be considered are a distinct group, but how about the Limburgers, Groningers, Drenten, Guelder, Stichters, Flanders, Zeeuwen etc. Do you mean to say that when you aim at Dutch, you actually mean Holland?? Arnoutf 09:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Dietsland really important after all?

Under the image with 'The Greater Netherlands, also called Dietsland', I added the explanation that this is not an actual country, but just the area where Dutch is the official language. This explanation was almost immediately removed by Rex Germanus, although both terms are explained nowhere. I really think the image is very confusing for people who do not know the geographical location of The Netherlands or Belgium. Worse, I have never heard of these terms 'Greater Netherlands' or 'Dietsland' even though I'm Dutch myself. The corresponding Groot-Nederland-article on the Dutch Wikipedia has an oversized and controversial smell, too; the subject has hardly got any attention in the Dutch media in the past years, afaik. I fear this is going to be an edit war, but I really think it is best to either explain the image much better, or leave it completely away and not cause confusion. Stonehead 9 september 2006, 20:48 (CEST)

I really trust that people have some idea where Belgium and the Netherlands are positioned and that they can see that Dietsland is spelled differently. Of course Dietsland isn't a county, it's a concept. I'm Dutch too and I have heard of this, and I'm sure people who are interested (thus click on the link) will be properly informed.

Rex 20:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, they do not. Most citizens of the USA have no idea of all these countries in Europe (my personal opinion; I could probably prove it if I had the time to Google). For quick readers, I find it misleading to introduce the little-known Dietsland-'concept' in a geographical picture at this very general and real Dutch people-article. If there should be any map at all, it should do justice to all of these 'Dutch' groups listed. For the Dietsland-article, the picture is great, but please, only refer to this 'concept' in a link here. Stonehead 10 september 2006, 12:57 (CEST)

I think you've heard too much stereotypes, the average American might not know where Moldavia lies, but I'm quite sure (based on my own experiences) that they know where the Netherlands and Belgium are. Rex 11:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think a bit more explanation of the Dietsland concept may be in place if we want to use the term. The concept is relatively little known; and of course as an encyclopdia, wiki should be directed at the interested general public. Arnoutf 11:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should ask some Flemish people about their opinion on the relevance of the concept. On nl.wikipedia I saw various Flemish people using the term "Groot Nederland" (Greater Netherlands), but the term is hardly known among the Dutch. Probably the term Dietsland is also more familiar to the Flemish than to the Dutch. SietskeEN 15:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (edited on 09:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC))

Wiki English is aimed at the AngloSaxon world (and the world in general) so the familiarity of these phrases to the Dutch or Flemish is not really relevant; we should try to estimate whether it can reasonably expected from the target (UK, US, rest of world) audience to know these phrases. Arnoutf 18:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

There he is

Rex: There are two issues which clearly we need to sort out: 1) your insistence of (incorrectly) including Spinoza and Anne Frank on the Dutch ethnic group article and 2) your refusal to include Austrians and Swiss Germans under the numbers box on the German people article. I have decided to leave the "ethnic box" on the Austrians article stay for now since they are a sub-group of Germans in the same way that Galicians and Catalans have their own articles, but are ALSO included under the broader Spanish people article. I have never heard any Swiss German or Austrian who would not also consider themselves part of the larger grouop of ethnic Germans. As for the Anne Frank and Spinoza dispute, I only have so much time to argue on that right now because of other commitments (I just moved back to Toronto for school), but I simply can't see why they should be included. They were Dutch nationals or citizens but they aren't considered ethnic Dutch by pretty much anyone and they themselves did not consider themselves as such and had many aspects of non-Dutch heritage (including descent and culture). Maybe I should just add something under their names for now stating this, but im going to continue to push for their removal from that article. In the meantime, I really suggest that we find some references for the current form of the Dutch people article since right now, it really appears as original research (barely anything is sourced outside of the numbers really) and thats not acceptable for Wikipedia, and I really don't want to see the article turned into a mockery like the French people article. Anyways I'm out for now, ciao. Epf 05:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you ever read Spinozas work or read Annes diary, but if you do you'll find 2 things; Spinoza thought more "Dutch" than the Dutch themselves and was proud to be considered one of them and Anne Frank had a deep urge to become a Dutch citizen, spoke and wrote Dutch and had lived in the Netherlands for the bigger part of her life.

With this in mind and the concept of "ethnic group" in the 21th century, they are Dutch.

Austrians and Swiss people have their own culture, dialects and customs and feel a band, this alone is enough to consider them separate ethnic groups.

Rex 12:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know where your coming up with this ridiculous and ignorant POV that is not in line with the accepted definiton of an ethnic group. Even if you think its correct, its still your own, widely unaccepted opinon that simply can not be the only one present in these articles. The concept of "ethnic group" in the 21st century ? What are you talking about ? The concept is still the same and it hasnt changed just because you have some sort of nihilistic and assmilationist agenda. Austrians and Swiss ARE also Germans and they are by no means completely distinct from other Germans. Dialects do not warrant separate ethnicity, and although they have their own unique regional customs and culture, they also share most of that with other Germans in which they have more in common with than any other people from any other country. Most importantly, they also share common descent with Germans and they do feel they are Germans as well as being distinctly Austrians and Swiss. Why do you think in Switzerland they differentiate people and cultures betrween Swiss German, Swiss French, and Italians ? I tried to be undertstanding, but you are being ignorant and I will bring it with regards to this issue and also challenge your unreferenced non-sense you put in these articles. I don't mean to come across as being arrogant, but I am sick of all this extreme leftist, ethnic nihilist, assimilationist rubbish that a few users like you are trying to push in these articles and its not acceptable to put such foolishness on Wikipedia. Let the editing begin. Epf 06:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

These 'ethnic group' qualifications seem to cause misunderstandings: the actual ethnicity in a racial sense of Austrians, whatever language they speak, and such of French or Dutch people, is hardly different or would exclude most of these countries' individuals. The differences are their cultures as inherited (like genes are inherited), thus ethnicity in a figurative sense. This differenciates those articles with strict population or citizenship counts that include recent or for some groups not so recent immigrants who did not yet assimilate the historical 'native' culture. Interpreting 'ethnic' as belonging to an ethnical race makes no sense in a European context. Anne Frank and Spinoza can not be excluded from the culture they did not inherit genetically (no-one does), but acquired (as all of us) and, fully deserve to be acknowleged, in their case, as Dutch. [Not exactly something I could be jealous about, Rex ;-) ] — SomeHuman 21 Sep2006 01:03 (UTC)

• Many aspects of culture are learned from your surrounding environment and community, and this includes those in your own local community which in many cases is distinct from that of the national one you may be living in. However, many aspects of culture are also inherited from your family, obviously since they are the ones who you learn so much of your personality and identitiy from. Many aspects of culture, whether it be language, traditions and customs, history, cuisine, community, etc. is passed down to us by each generation and not simply what we get from our area or region of residence. This is why ethnicity, is in a large part based on descent, which besides such cultural traits which may or may not be passed down, includes other inherited natural/biological (ancestral) traits and socio-behavioural ones which are inherited through nurture (i.e. from those who we spend most of our life around in the years in which we grow and develop, most importantly our family but also close friends in the local community). Anne Frank and Spinoza were Dutch nationals and were Dutch persons in that sense, but they weren't ethnic Dutch. They inherited and were passed down many of their familial ethno-cultural traits which were Jewish or non-Dutch. They had NO Dutch ancestry whatsoever and if that is the case, then they are not ethnic Dutch, and even with that said, Anne Frank was born in Germany and spent time growing up there before coming to Holland. Just because you are born or live somewhere, doesnt mean you automatically become the same as the indigenous pupulation living there. I can tell you now you're discussing this issue with someone who has spent most of my time sutdying and on Wikipedia focusing on ethnic groups, anthropology and the importance of descent in ethnicity. It is ridiculous to say we simply "acquire" culture and/or ethnic ideneity form just simply living or being born somewhere or because we want to. You would have to change all elements of who you are and where you come from for that to be the case and ethnic identity is not something gained or lost on a whim. Epf 06:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Taken from User talk:Rex Germanus

Revert of recent revisions

I have reverted three recent revision by Epf. I will shortly motivate here why I reverted the first and third (the second being a minor textual change).

The first revision that I reverted was (again) the removal of Anne Frank and Spinoza from the section Contribution to Humantiy. Eopf gave the following edit summary Contribution to humanity - i have gone over this again and again and we still havent resolved it, view my comments on Rex' talk page. If you include them, you can include anyone anywhere. I agree that Epf has gone over this again and again and that we still have not solved the issue; which centers largely on the definition of an ethnic group (see a lot of debate on the Dutch people talk page). In my opinion text should not be changed before the issue is solved. This is my main reason for the reversion. Furthermore the comments of Epf on Rex' talk page are completely irrelevant. If Epf thinks there is a good argument to be made, he should make it on the talk page of the articale, not on the personal page of one of the editors. - But I see now he did; although very lengthy.... I will have to have a look....

The other revision was the addition of the banner {{Unreferenced}}. Although I agree that this article could benefit from good cites, I still deleted the banner as I cannot exclude that Epf added the banner to shed doubt on the quality of the article more out of frustration for not getting his point of view accepted by other editors; than because of a jsutified concern for the quality of the article. No offense meant if I am wrong. As the unreferenced issue has no history for this page, the more decent way to introduce this would have been through a topic on this talk page. Or if you really can not live with a specific bold claim in the text the addition of in text calls for reference using the {{uncited}} template; which helps subsequent editors to improve the text much better than a vague overall lack of reference banner. Arnoutf 07:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Uncited

To incrase the quality of the artcily and to do justice to Epf's remark on citations, I went through the text and marked instance where I thought a bold claim was made with the uncited tag. This does not mean that I disagree with these phrases, only that for the current text to sport these bold claims, external sources should be cited. I am pretty sure some editors have them ready to fill out. In my opinion addition of such sources would be a huge step forward in improving this (sometimes heavily) debated article towards a generally accepted good article. Arnoutf 15:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfounded and assimlationist POV of Arnoutf and Rex

Stop pushing your own POV and political agenda on this article and disrespecting and discarding the traditional and accepted defintion of an ethnic group. You keep claiming that the defintion of an ethnic group has "changed" or that the aspects of descent have all of a sudden mysteriously gone away. Where do you think we coem from ? Are we genetically created from a test tube ? You dont just get phenotypic and genotypic ethnic traits from your familial descent, you also get many cultural and psycho-behavioural traits. They raised you and taught you your first langauge(s) and your family is your gateway to your surrounding cultural community and they are who you spend most of your developing years around (notably including the very important infant years pior to the age of 5). You cant just decide to disregard one of the main pillars in ethnic identification, descent/genealogy, simply because you have some political agenda. Your cultural identification comes from both your community (local, regional and national) and your descent (family and ancestry). Ethnic identifcation, as is provided by the referenced definitions of ethnic group on ethnic group article includes common descent and traits which are and are not resultant of it. The descent part of ethnic identification is obviously still one of the main factors in the vast majority of cases (including the Dutch), even in our modern, globalizing world (where people are in fact finding it easier to connect with their roots because of the effects of globalization). Just because the Netherlands in some aspects, is a small geographic area does not negate the importance of descent whatsoever. The Dutch international outlook and empire as well as "long and muddled" European history don't make the factor of descent in ethnic Dutch identification "hard to uphold" whatsoever. Ethnic Dutch (i.e. those who have Dutch ethnic origins) still retain the predominant pre-celtic/celtic (Belgae) and Germanic (Franks) descent/origins which have characterized the people ever since the existence of a "Dutch" people and culture which formed from these elements in the early middle ages (after the Germanic migrations/settlement). You're not going to be allowed to discard such an obvious part of ethnic Dutch identifcation. Ciao, Epf 00:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I try to be as open to critisism as possible. However in my opinion it is Epf who is pushing a POV. In spite of numerous requests by myself he has not provided a referenced definition of Ethnic Group. (This while Epf has put on the unreferenced tag and both me and Rex has taken up the challenge and have started providing reference ourselves, something Epf has not done for his view on what an ethnic group is). That is the moment I turned to the wiki [ethnic group] article. However, Epf does not accept that the definition there includes limitations to the descent part. In trying to clearly define what we should consider the Dutch Ethnic group I copied the definition of the wiki article into the introduction of the Dutch ethnic group article. My idea being that if consensus could be achieved on this (or an adapted version of this) definition the rest of the article (including the contested inclusion of Spinoza and Anne Frank) could be measured against this definition thus solving the problems. This was removed by Epf without any reasonable argument. Calling me POV pushing is therefore (imho) a clear cut case of "The Pot Calling The Kettle Black". Without a reasonalbe argument and at least minor consensus I will continue to revert unfounded removals from this page. Arnoutf 07:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Umm, no I am not POV pushing, I am going by the accepted definition of an ethnic group from the ethnic group article which is referenced from anthropolgical and other sources. Arnoutf is now resorting to false accusations in order to make his own POV and agenda possible. He claims I am without a reasonable argument yet I have time and time again provided very significant discourse in this article arguing my point. He also claims I have not used any references but I continue to point out to the references on the ethnic group article which support my point. As for the references hes provided, all he did was use certain aspects of the defintion of ethnic group to support his POV on this issue and merely link to the ethnic group article on Wikipedia rather than providing some other source. The other two sources provided by Rex hardly constitute the whole article being seen as verified since much of it is from original research and common knowledge of various users. Artnouf refuses to accept the importance of descent and resultant traits to Dutch ethnic identifcation by making up some ridiculous and very controversial POV comments about how "the long international history of the Dutch, makes such a narrow definition hard to sustain". This is agenda pushing and clearly he is trying to come across with some point that the Dutch are some multi-cultural and multi-ethnic population that has been constantly mixed with massive immigration over history, which is obviously not the case. The Dutch colonial empire would result in significant immigratoin to the Netherlands, especially in the 20th century, but nothing that has altered the ethnic make-up of the majority indigenous Dutch or blurred their identifcation of a common descent to the pre-celtic/celtic peoples (Belgae) and the Germanic Franks. When you alter a source by excluding elements of a definition or in this case using your own interpretation as a refernce, that is a form of agenda or POV pushing. Ciao, Epf 03:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read the definition on ethnic group, and the discussion on that article: I quote: An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. With Smith (I guess) being the scientific reference. This definition clearly states that An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other and I think Epf does agree there. The controversy is about whether the second section of this definition usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry means - the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry is an essential part of this identification(what I gather Epf's interpretation is - please correct if I am wrong); or that it means the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry is an often but not necessarily part of this identification (which is my interpretation). Discussions on the ethnic talk page show that both interpretations are accepted by different people. For the Dutch people article this distinction is however essential as I agree with Epf, that following the first (narrow) interpretation Spinoza and Anne Frank do not qualify as Dutch. The broad definition proposed by me (and I guess Rex as well) does however include Anne Frank and Spinoza. The narrow definition has some weird consequences, e.g. removal of royal family from Dutch ethnicity; unless special allowances are made (Assuming King Willem I 100% Dutch (whihch he want)x Prussian princess- WillemII(50% Dutch)xRussian princess; WillemIII(25% Dutch)xGerman princess - Wilhelmina(12.5% Dutch)*german husbanc- Juliana (6.25% Dutch)*German husband - Beatrix(3.125%Dutch)*german husband - Willem Alexander (1.6% Dutch)*Argentinian wife- His children 0.8% Dutch!. AnneFrank had definitely more Dutch blood).

In brief I think the only way out and forward is to find consensus on a definition of Dutch people. Arnoutf 15:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation of the definition in some respects and yes indeed the debate here is whether common descent/genealogy is part of Dutch ethnic identification which it obviously is (as in the majority of ethnic groups around the world). The definiton of common descent may appear to you as narrow, but it is one of the main pillars of ethnic identification and has always been so. I already explained above how it would still include the Dutch royal family since most of the major family memebers have some significant degree of ethnic Dutch origins. In any case, nearly every royal family in Europe acknowledges a multi-ethnic and muli-cultural identity and ancestry apart from that of their native land. You are rigth that a consensus needs to be made on the definition of Dutch people and clearly there are those who are ethnic Dutch (descent and culture) and those who are Dutch nationals or citizens with strong elements of Dutch culture and identity but of no Dutch descent (and in turn retaining non-Dutch ethno-cultural elements in their identity). Epf 09:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, in the ethnic group definition, many of the shared cultural, linguisitic and religious traits are associated with ones descent and the behavioural (or psycho-behavioural) traits are obviously very correlated with ones descent. Epf 09:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I try to summarise:

• IMHO: We all agree that cultural, linguistic, and religious traits as well as common descent are identifiers of ethnic groups (I agree that descent plays some role).
• The debate is to what amount (especially) common descent is an essential condition for inclusion in an ethnic group.

• If we state that it does not play a role, we adopt the broadest possible definition of ethnic group; which includes every person who states him/her self to be Dutch into the Dutch ethnic group. (I can see this is a bit out of reality for many).
• If we state that it does play the decisive role, we adopt the narrowest possible definition of ethnic groups; this excludes anyone whocannot trace back a unbroken descent to Francs, and Celts of say around 300AD, through both paternal and maternal lines. (This is of course not possible, so not a single member of the Dutch ethnic group can be identified following this definition).

Therefore the definition has to be somewhere in between; as Epf already indicated a certain amount of Dutch descent maybe enough to qualify.

The adopted definition has to be straightforward and neutral. Does anyone have a suggestion how to word it? One option I mentioned somewhere much higher on this talk page, is to take up Dutch Statistics Agency (CBS) condition that you can only be counted ethnic Dutch if both your parents were born in the Netherlands; this introduces a fairly relaxed condition towards the descent condition (it excludes Spinoza and Anne Frank though), as your granparents need not to be ethnic Dutch; to be ethnic Dutch yourself. This does allow third generation immigrants, who conform to the other demands (e.g think of themselves as culturally Dutch) to be included. Arnoutf 11:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, you are again making some unfounded claims here Arnoutf and ignoring facts and what common descent actually includes. The common descent of the Dutch is those who can trace at least a significant degree of their ancestry to the indigenous ethnic Dutch, which are descended from a mix of the pre-Celtic/Celtic peoples (Belgae) of the region which have always inhabited it and the Germanic Franks who settled here during the Germanic migrations. Every ethnic Dutch person can claim this to some degree, otherwise they wouldn't be ethnically Dutch. The Dutch statistics agency does not state, anywhere, that you can be "counted as ethnic Dutch if both your parents were born in the Netherlands". That policy has to do with citizenship and nationality in the Netherlands, obviously. There is one suggested way to identify this article: this is about the Dutch as an ethnic group indigenous to the Netherlands, that is those who identify with a common Dutch descent and culture. Ethnic Dutch identification includes those who have the common descent and the cultural, religious, behavioural, or linguistic traits which are usually but not necessarily associated with it. Epf 05:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Good. This isexactly the point that I want to have solved. What is a significant degree of ancestry???

I agree 100% ancestry all the way back to 300AD is a ridiculous demand for significance. But what is the lower limit; and do membbers of other Franko-Celtic peoples (common descent), who migrated to teh Netherlands and became culturally Dutch qualify???

Secondly, CBS reports population statistics of the Netherlands. Recently (about little over a year ago) they adopted exactly the definition given by me (both parents bron in Nl) for inclusion in the Dutch indigenous population in the official population statistics of the Netherlands. However, after checking I am not so sure whether indigenous Dutch and ethnic Dutch are necessarily the same, so forget my suggestion about the CBS definition. Arnoutf 07:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent rev by EPF

Epf once again reverted Rex' inclusion of Spinoza and Anne Frank to contribution of humanity with the edit summary: rv POV; i thought this was ettled. Clearly Rex has soem agendaon the issue with his insistence on including these particular two people. However reading all debate above I cannot agree this issue was settled. There is still no clear definition of ethnic Dutch and the most recent comment above by Epf: "....The common descent of the Dutch is those who can trace at least a significant degree of their ancestry...." (without specifying what significance means) indicates that at least Anne Frank due to Dutch ancestry may be included. As I have stated many times before, without a clear definition of the Dutch ethnic group this issue cannot be settled. Arnoutf 07:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I thought that we came to a consensus on what ethnic Dutch entailed based on the verified definition of ethnic group on Wikipedia, i.e. the Dutch ethnic group identify with each other based on a common Dutch culture and descent (and such associated traits). I have read into Anne Frank's biography and any Dutch descent she did have (Rex mentioned such) was very minimal. I really can't see how Spinoza, whos parents were Portuguese-Jews and himself of no ethnic Dutch heritage (and still considered himself ethnically Jewish as much as anything else) could ever be included. He was proud to be born in The Netherlands and a Dutch national but he was still seen by himself and others as having many non-Dutch ethnic elements in his identity (again lacking any Dutch descent). Anne Frank was born and raised in Germany, of barely any Dutch descent, also identified as ethnically Jewish and livied in the Netherlands briefly (6 years or so). I hate discussing this in some ways because I admire the story of Anne Frank and I have no negative intention here, I just simply wish to emphasize that although she was a Dutch national, she did not share the same ethnic identity as that of native ethnic Dutch, and she is obviously acknowledged worldwide as being ethnically Jewish as much as anything else. Ciao, Epf 07:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

To be honest I am not convinced neither by you (exclusion of Spinoza and Anne Frank) nor by Rex (inclusion of both). I think we made some progress with the definition, but the definition is still a bit ambiguous. Personally I am more in favour of the broader interpretation of the definition (which warrant inclusion), and I still think your (Epf) interpretation of the definition is a bit too narrow. But that is my personal opinion. I think that Spinoza and Anne Frank are not clear cut cases; so they may or may not be included depending on consensus. I will no longer revert edits either including or excluding them, but hope that this can be resolved. I would be happy if some other editors besides the three of us (Rex, Epf, Arnoutf) would share their opinion on this issue in this talk page, so we can really see where this should be going from here. Arnoutf 08:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Please both Epf and Rex try to be civil in edit summaries; making the issue even more hostile by inflammatory comments is counterproductive. Thanks Arnoutf 18:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

North germans - Germanic people

In related ethnic groups, recently the group North germans was added. I do not think this adds anything as:

1. There is no wiki article that identifies north Germans as an ethnic group, nor is there any other source naming them as an ethnic group therefore the inclusion is unreferenced.
2. The more general group: Germanic peoples, which is already mentioned of course also includes north Germans; so there is no added content

Thus I would be against inclusion of north Germans. Arnoutf 20:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

To reflect on my own comment: The wiki article on Germanic people states under heading Assimiliation clearly that: ""Germanic" as understood today is a linguistic term. Modern ethnicities speaking Germanic languages are usually not referred to as Germanic peoples, a term of historic scope. Outside of Scandinavia, present-day countries speaking a Germanic language have mixed ethnic roots not restricted to the earliest Germanic peoples."

Thus inclusion of Germanic peoples as related ethnic group seems not a good idea. The question can be raised whether Germans are a related ethnic group. Perhaps they are, but if so much further removed then Flemings, Afrikaners and Frisians. So I would suggest to delete Germanic peoples in the infobox for now and replace with actual ehtnic groups or not at all. Arnoutf 13:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, of course it's a different matter when your actions are fueled by German nationalism.

The Germans are clearly much less related to the Dutch than the Frisians (coexistion and mutual colonisation since Roman times) and the Afrikaners (effectively the offspring of Dutch colonists) and Flemings (who are often considered the same group as the Dutch) Germanic peoples as a whole is gtoo broad and North Germans is just ridiculous, like Arnout said this would mean the Germans are composed of multiple ethic groups, naturally you have to take into account the mind behind all this. Rex 13:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be inclined to add Germans for the same reasons as the Frisians (who violently resisted the Lowlanders until finally being absorbed by Prussia), adding the fact that Saxons (hence the north designation) and Franks were more related than say the Saxons and Bavarians, now under one group, or in fact the Frisians and the Dutch, who are in distinct linguistic groups. One could maliciously inerpret this as "German nationalism", or in fact see it as Dutch chauvinistic claims over German lowlands, to use Rex's dumbfounding analogies. Ulritz 13:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that historically the Frisians and the Dutch were separate members of the larger Germanic peoples group. However (excluding the Ost Frisians, who were absorbed by the Prusians), the Frisians in the current Netherlands became and remained in very close contact with the Hollandic ethnic groups since the end of the Friso-Hollandic Wars (1345). In the 650 years since the current Dutch province of Frisia has always been closely related to the Dutch. In my opinion plenty of time for loose ethnic bonds (which I agree could be defended about a 1000 yrs ago) to become more tight. This I think is enough justification for inclusion of the Frisians

The Flemish have always been closely related to Zeelandic and Brabandic parts of the Netherlands, actually the current division is that of the treaty of Munster. Although the Flemish and Dutch have drifted apart a bit, the relation is still there and specific enough to warrant their inclusion.

I think everybody agrees the Afrikaners being Dutch descendants keeping many of the cultural traditions intact can also be included.

That leaves the Germands. To be honest I think that there are a number of ethnic similarities between German people who are Saxons descendants and the Dutch, but as they are in one group with Bavarians and Prussians, I would not add the Germans as a whole (exactly for the reason stated above by Ulritz - There is hardly any relation between the Dutch and the Bavarians, or the Prussians for that matter). Reasoning this through, a relation to Danish people would perhaps be even more accurate than to the larger German people group.

Assuming good faith in all editors I will not even start to react to above German nationalistic / Dutch chauvinistic accusations between some editors. Arnoutf 14:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The relation with the Bavarians and any other German group is simply that there was until very recently a perfect dialect continuum. As political divisions were late to develop, language can be the only major criterion for ethnicity here. Certainly it is extremely dubious to construct some opposition between "Dutch" and "German" before the 17th century. And certainly the cultural ties between Twenthe and Bentheim or Limburg and the Rhineland were until the late 19th century much closer than between Twenthe (or Limburg) and Holland. That the Franks had a separate identity from very early on doesn't imply they weren't German; that would be an unjustified and anachronistic projection of the present situation into the past. Dutch nationalists have to accept that they are Germans; German nationalists have to accept that there is an alternative way of being German: the Dutch one. It's hard for both :o).--MWAK 15:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow your argument in full. But I agree strict borders are generally artificial. I do however disagree that the Dutch-German split began only in the 17th century (ok it can be argued that Twente and Limburg became separated from Germany in the 17th century but they became only involved in the campaigns of Maurice and Frederick Henry that were initiated from Holland). If you accept that the origin of the Netherlands lies in the 17 united Netherlands the distinction goes back to at least the 15th century (when the Burgundians started to collect the separate Dutch Duchies, Counties and Bishoprics). It can even be argued that the increasingly independent (from the Holy Roman Empire) course of the Counts of Holland, Zeeland, Friesland in the 13th century is already the first lasting division between the Dutch and the German countries. Arnoutf 16:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

New People section

I've rewritten the "people" section. The new version is a bit more honest and (most importantly) is completely referenced. I'm thinking of adding a "relations with other people" section as well. Rex 11:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like an improvement, some English proofreading by a native levevl English is probably advisable though. Perhaps we have to reconsider the referencing if we use one source multiple ties I think the good wiki is: the first time a ref is used put in: <ref name="x">REF text here </ref>. Then you can afterwards just use <ref name="x" /> . This is used in e.g. Eighty Years' War, and has two major advantages: 1: in text numbering does not grow, a trainied reader interprets by numbers alonethat a certain source is used for multiple references. 2: Reference list is much shorter, while containing exactly the same info. If I have time I will soon implement this way of referencing here. Any other volunteers also welcome Arnoutf 12:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Germans - Awesome

Recently there has been some controversy on a text in the Dutch image which ran: Most nations regard the Dutch as being organized and efficient, rather like the Germans but less awesome. One can hardly be frightened, the stereotypical reasoning goes, by "a nation of rosy-cheeked farmers who live in windmills, wear clogs, have a garden full of tulips and sit on piles of yellow cheese".
Although in my opinion there is some truth in the lines, the wording does not seem to be serious. Indeed the source here is the Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch; that in my opinion is likely to phrase information rather overstated and frame it as a humorous. Thus although I can accept to use some of that information as source (although a more serious source would be nice), I think the (ironic) wording does not fit the aim of Wikipedia, being a serious encyclopedia; and this information (if it is to stay in) has to reworded. Arnoutf 14:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC) .

Just checking, but are we all aware that "awesome" here, means "causing awe" rather than "excellent or exciting"? :) Rex 15:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Arnoutf, I agree. Though Rex is right to be careful with a subjective subject as Dutch image worldwide is (especially when it is written by a Dutchmen), the book is written in an un-encyclopaedic humoristic tone (ergo I like it... a lot). Think we should be okay by rewording it slightly, preserving the meaning, or find another source. Further, I’m not sure if the copyright can cause any problems if we use it word for word. By the way, I don’t think the word "awesome" is the only problem. --Van helsing 09:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever we decide we should prefer books not written by Dutchmen, this people section is interesting and worth writing about but it is very subjective and we should be very careful of what we write.Rex 11:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Dutch views on others

Rex, thanks for your work, but, err... are you really sure you want this in like it stands right now? Should the Dutch views on others be part of an encyclopaedic article about Dutch people themselves? Or are you looking for some consensus driven paragraph evolution? I’m sure some are happy to dive on that Dutch feelings about Germans part. You know, citable doesn’t mean have to include, hence, will not all off a sudden be a magical protection. --Van helsing 23:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Strike that, still think it reads a bit like written by Rik Mayall, but this isn’t Britannica. --Van helsing 08:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean Van helsing, but I wan't to make this article more than just a list on "how many there are" and "where they live". Besides I think this information is rather interesting, and will probably inform people a bit on the nature of the Dutch people.Rex 16:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

---

From the article:

Germans are perhaps the one people the Dutch truly dislike, they are considered to be rude, arrogant, noisy and intolerant and in fact most other antonyms of characteristics the Dutch pride themselves on. etc.

This doesn't make sense to me. What other sources are there for this? The one listed is "the The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch"; how reliable is this?

In my experience, the German and Dutch people get along quite well in practice. There is a lot of rivalry when it comes to football, and there are some recurring jokes about World War II or the behaviour of Germans on Dutch beaches, but these are mostly (as far as I can tell) in good spirit, and hardly affect relations between the Dutch and German in practice.

I think the statement that the Dutch "truly dislike" the Germans is just plain wrong. (Also, the cases I know of hate/racism, are not directed at the Flemish or German at all, but rather at Marrocans, Turks, blacks or just allochtonen in general, whose culture is much more different.) It is true that the Dutch don't like to be called German (and don't like their language to be confused with it), but it seems to me that it is more general patriotism than dislike of the Germans. They would just as much dislike being called French. 130.89.167.52 03:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Think you’re right about that, but our opinion or even "the truth" is secondary to what the sources say, and this one is sourced. Also when we think we’re knowledgeable on the issue. Trick is to find another source with a bit subtler wording. --Van helsing 08:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree; Dutch relations to the Germans is now pretty good. Note that this was not always the case, I believe (pov though for what its worth) about 20yrs ago the war was much more salient and the relationship less good. That is the problem with sources, they may go out of date (e.g. there are plenty of (medieval) sources stating that the earth is flat, that are no longer relevant). So something that is sources may not be relevation when it has become outdated (even in the lack of a source explicitly stating it has been outdated). On a ligther note. weelll the beaches, just show me a single tourist area where the local population (that is not employed in tourist industry) really likes the foreign tourists. Arnoutf 08:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course relations have improved since 1945, but one cannot deny that there a feeling of antipathy towards germans when one takes into account the relations the Dutch have with other peoples. I never did spot the word "hate" which is kind of different but in the last 60 years the signs of anti-german feelings are/have been clearly present. Although, as mentioned in the book "Onbekende buren" (a book specifically aimed at Dutch-German relations) this feeling of disliking is somewhat of a "group activity" and generally when Dutch people actually meet a German they are described as "not typically/very German". Rex 14:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the 'Onbekende buren' book; but from the reviews I just 'googled' I think the new 2006 edition may be a very good reference for the statement on Dutch-German relations for this page. Arnoutf 15:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering the loads of information in it, its enough for a separate article.Rex 15:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean we should put up a summary of the book, although I agree the Dutch-German relationship maybe worthy of an article in its own right (note however the book may represent a POV, so some more sources would be needed there). However if the gist of that book can be captured in a single paragraph that gives an overview of Dutch-German relation in thsi article, the book seems a fair and relevant. Arnoutf 15:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC) reference