Talk:Michael Richards

Is Kramer a racist?

Or the actor who plays him? We need MORE information on this incident not less! Maybe we should've known something when his character's name was "Krazy Kosmo Kramer" (note initials if that wasn't his name maybe it shoulod be). More info on him flipping out Please!! It is very notable and Socially Relevant on Hollywood and race relations.

Your comment includes an unfounded assertion. Richards' character was not a racist, and the character's title according to the scripts of the show was spelled Cosmo Kramer, with a C. Dfunk58 09:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

World Trade Center?

Is this the same person who was killed in the World Trade Center attacks? If so, it should be noted. If not, we need a disambig page.

Paul, in Saudi

No. Michael Richards (AKA Kramer) has been in the news of late (re: the Seinfeld DVD) and is very much alive and quipping. [1] chocolateboy 19:06, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ive heard they are keeping him 'alive' with hooks, showbusiness is amazing. unfortuately i cant find my source.Jesus On Wheels 10:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Freemason magazine

Where's that "Freemason" magazine picture from?--213.238.212.98 21:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bad Picture

That's a really bad picture, all blury, someone should get a new one...User:Bronks September 12 2005

Misconception?

The character of Kramer is Jewish. I myself was under the impression that Kramer is a strictly Jewish surname (may well be true in real life but not necessarily in the world of make believe). However, in the episode where he arranges the shindig for Jewish singles he explicitly states that he is not Jewish.

Removed this here: "Altough he is famous for playing a Jewish character on Seinfeld, Richards is a Roman Catholic." What's Jewish about Kramer? Is so, why would the reader find this notable? --Wetman 07:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

FYI, Kramer is just a German occupation name for a peddler. It's easy to Google non-Jewish Kramers. --Dhartung | Talk 20:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Catholic/Freemason/Shriner?

It's unlikely that he is both Catholic and a Freemason (or a Shriner). Wayback, freemasonry was forbidden by the Catholic Church. Not that it would be ruled out today, but it seems far-fetched.

Actually, freemasonry is still fobidden by the Catholic Church. Its not viewed as a mortal sin or anything but you're still not supposed to join. - Schrandit 16:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's more than that. If you join the Freemasons, you are automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church. 129.22.53.246 23:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Masonry, despite the stigma placed upon it by the catholic church administration every few years or so, still attracts many catholic members - there are men of most every faith in masonry, and catholics are not excluded from that count - from parishioners to priests and bishops, masonry and freethinking catholicism are not disparate. CigarBandit 02:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Cheers appearance

I was watching Cheers the other day and he popped up in a minor role as a friend of Sam...

Unfortunately I didn't write down the episode title, does anyone have any ideas where I can get hold of it?

Cheers appearance again...

Sorry to repeat post but tv.com has a note here:

http://www.tv.com/cheers/bar-bet/episode/14134/summary.html

(Notice Michael Richards in the cast list as "Eddie Gordan")

Does anyone think that this is worthwhile including?

Vietnam war veteran

I've removed the sentence about him being a vietnam war veteran, and also the category. He was drafted during the war, but according to the article he didn't serve there, meaning that he isn't a vietnam war veteran! Bjelleklang - talk 13:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

What Richards actually says is that "50 years ago you would be hung upside down with a fork up your ass", which is just weird and gross, and not necessarily having any racist connotation that I know of (though the rest of the tirade certainly is). The video from CNN with the "Offended Audience Member" being interviewed is really innaccurate compared to the TMZ.com video of the incident itself.

---

Someone keeps adding "he hates black people" at the end of the first sentence among other things. This article should be locked.

-- NickyBatts 20 Nov 2006 (UTC) The article now just says "Michael Richards is a racist" this page should be locked.

Lock it. Richards screwed up recently, but it's only going to lead to vandalism. -Betaeleven 17:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is important to add that one of Richards's comments was a possible reference to lynchings of black people: "Shut up! Fifty years ago we'd have you upside down with a f------ fork up your a--." From http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=242527&GT1=7703 I hope someone adds this info. I don't have time or attention right now to wait until the article is unlocked to add the info above.

I will add a full transcript of the video of the event. I believe this is important due to confusion about the full circumstances, and the extent of abusive terms. 3dom 00:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Another consideration is that, odd and offensive as it may be, it doesn't seem as though Richards actually "believed" what he said. For example, after saying it, he continued onstage that it was "shocking" and referred to "what lays beneath" regarding the infamous word. --AWF

3dom, I have to disagree on the insertion of the full transcript. It takes up an excessive amount of space (almost as much as all the writing on his career), and while this incident may certainly have huge implications on his career, the full transcript comes out as fluff. A few quotes are good and I definitely think it needs to be illustrated, but a link and a a quote or two are enough. caz | speak 01:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree you could probably trim a bit of the repetitive content, I think it is important to document the incident in full, particularly in this case as there is debate as to the sincerity of the comments. I believe the transcript serves to show as evidence Richards' was not merely trying to be witty or sarcastic, but had become quite irate and abusive. 3dom 01:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You should add this incident in full including a link to the video of how racist and offensive he got. He tried to change it into a more comedic performance but then went into a rage and that is when he used the "N Word". Before, he had made racist comments about the treatment of Black people fifty years ago. After his apparent calming down and twisting it into a joke, he went back into a rage and started using the "N Word". This incident should be included in full. With every racist remark documented.

The Laugh Factory

Should this article be protected because of his racist remarks at The Laugh Factory? There has already been vandalism.--TheBooRadley 16:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:What I don't like is the white-washing (no pun intended) of his remarks by simply referring to them as "racially insensitive." Saying something racially insensitive would be accidentally or unintentionally letting something slip; Richards let loose a tirade of what is arguably one of the most insensitive racist terms currently in use towards black people, inferring that an audience member ought to be murdered in the fashion one might have killed a slave 50 years ago. That's not "racially insensitive", it's violent hate speech. Midnightguinea 16:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: this is an encyclopedia. We're not here to make judgements. If people want to do that, they can watch the video clip or read one of the various news stories. I just put in a request for semi-protection for the vandalism. —B33R ^{Talk • Contribs} 16:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And as an encyclopedia the facts should be stated not sanitized. Allow the reader to make their own judgment from the facts. User Brown Hornet

I think this page should at least get a little admin oversight for the next few days - as per the facts, keep the phrasing the way it stands and link to the online video of the act so people can judge that for themselves? - Schrandit 16:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

A few of us have made a sourced beachhead on the page, but I could see this requiring semi-protection for at least a few days. --Bobak 17:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clear up something, Richards didn't "infur" that the guy SHOULD be killed, but said that's what would have happened 50 years ago. Doesn't make it right, but let's not get mixed up and make what he did even worse.

I'll give it to you that stating he inferred such a thing on the actual article would be unacceptable, but let's be real here: the very definition of "infer" is to say something without actually saying it, and we all know what he was inferring. Midnightguinea 17:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That's actually "implying." Inferring is drawing a conclusion. J21 20:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

J21 is right. Just a tip: Speakers imply, listeners infer. Jyroberson 20:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not sure that this event is encyclopedic enough to deserve a section all its own yet. A Wikipedia article is not supposed to be something that we all run straight to for the latest gossip every time a celebrity does something goofy. It remains to be seen if this is something that will ultimately be notable in the big scheme of things in his career. This isn't quite a Mel Gibson meltdown - yet. wikipediatrix 17:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree. That paragraph has generally been attracting more unwanted attention from vandals too, hopefully that's stopped for now though as the article hasn't been vandalised in a whole 20 minutes! At this time though, I'm more inclined to leave it there, as it is well written and will hopefully stop vandals from thinking "it's not mentioned - I've gotta add it", and then doing a far worse writeup. Still waiting on semi-protection too. —B33R ^{Talk • Contribs} 17:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You can disregard most of my previous comment. Now that the page is semi-protected, I think it should be removed. If the news sources I've seen are correct and he went back on stage the next night, then it certainly doesn't appear to be career changing or particularly worthy of inclusion at this time. —B33R ^{Talk • Contribs} 18:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Add the section about the laugh factory back in. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that when you start calling someone a nigger and saying black people should have been killed 50 years ago it will have an effect on your career. And don't confuse gossip with current events. This is not gossip. 141.211.4.27 19:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it deserves at least a sentence and a link - while its not huge news in the long term this is the most publicity he has gotten in a long time and it may have an impact on his career - Schrandit 19:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No. It deserves more than a sentence because it is a current event. As time passes it can be widdled down to the appropiate size. 141.211.4.27 19:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there a specific policy rationale for what you're saying? The simple act of being a current event does not automatically imbue notability, especially on a living person's article as per WP:BLP. wikipediatrix 19:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No, there is no policy. But something like this is clearly noteable and deserves to be mentioned in this article. When has someone calling a black persion a nigger not had an affect on their life or career? Don't leave this out of spite for people who add gossip, this isn't gossip. This deserves at least a sentence, preferably that section that was in there originally because it was well written and informative. 141.211.4.27 19:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong disagree. The article (and video) about Kramer's "racial meltdown" are featured on the front page at the top of the first several popular "news" sites I went to: MSNBC, CNN, Drudge, ABCNews, etc. I'm not pointing to these as encyclopedic sources; I'm simply asserting notability. I also think we're very close to swinging the pendulum to the other direction: we're now so worried about libel that we're asserting that a very offensive tirade such as this that's getting top-of-the-fold attention by virtually every news outlet is not notable. I encourage everyone to actually re-read WP:BLP. It warns against reprinting things from gossip magazines or inserting unsourced or NPOV descriptions of events. Given that this is not gossip and that there are many sources available (including AP), it seems clear that we should have a sourced, NPOV description of the event (no more than a few sentences). See the Kanye West article for an example of how a similar outburst was handled (when West protested the loss of an award on live television). The solution is not to wait 6 months and see if it blows over before adding it to the article, and I think time is of the essence here. Strom 20:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Disagree -- as per Strom. This was very, very questionable of the editors that removed it. I agree with the point made by anon-141.211.4.27 above: we can always whittle it down. WHat was there was sourced and IMO neutral. --Bobak 20:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia: We protect funny celebrities from themselves!" I'd like to think not. --Bobak 20:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously. This isn't something "goofy." This is the most news he'll make for the rest of his career, in all likelihood. I'm really surprised that this was surpressed. Sylvain1972 20:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

By gossip I don't mean hearsay, I simply mean "lurid news". This incident is probably just a blip on the radar of Richards' total life, and yet it was given a huge section all to itself taking up 10-20 percent of the article. That's what's known as "undue weight". wikipediatrix 20:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I completely disagree with you about it being a blip - how can you say its not on the level of Gibson when his statements were far more offensive?

Regardless, Wikipedia's not a crystal ball and its not our job to access the future. The fact is that every major news outlet is reporting this, including international releases by the Associated Press and CNN. So, its certainly notable. It you believe that editors were giving undue weight then the solution is {{sofixit}} and rewrite, not revert entire good faith edits as if they were vandalism.  Glen  20:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I never treated it like vandalism. I haven't reverted it again since more editors have come in and chimed in on the matter. Nevertheless, I still feel very strongly that Wikipedia is not WikiNews, and we aren't obligated to take every daily news story and amplify it into larger-than-life status on their article. As for the difference with Gibson, Gibson committed a crime - drunken driving. That's notable. Being a jerk onstage isn't, necessarily. wikipediatrix 20:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

So if Gibson had just been pulled over for speeding instead, and started bitching about jews it wouldn't be noteworthy? There is a big difference between being a jerk and being a racist or saying racist things. Calling people niggers is not being a jerk. He was not telling a joke, he was not doing an edgey comedy routine. He was using racial slurs. And yes, wikipedia isn't wikinews but that doesn't mean wikipedia can't have current events in it. 141.211.4.27 21:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[Edit conflict] Im sorry but in all the stories of the Gibson incident I never saw one that focused on the drunk driving aspect as being the scandal, how can you possibly claim that that's what made it notable? I'd argue that if Gibson had said the same thing in any situation it would have resulted in the same result from the public. And if you cant see the difference between this and "any news story" then I guess thats where we disagree.  Glen  21:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you know this is just a blip? Furthermore a blip can be a big part of someones life. Star Wars kid has had a few minutes of his turn into a big article on him. Should it be wittled down to reflect the actual percentage of his life it has taken up? It is current event so it will be expanded on a lot. People read a news article on him, come here to read about his life and work and add the sutff they read. Once this stops making news it can be wittled down to an appropiate size. By refusing to make any mention of this incident at all you are doing a diservice to wikipedia and everyone who comes here to read about current events. 141.211.4.27 20:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this being a notable event for reasons stated above: It's showing up in multiple news sources and its verified that it happened -- a video of it exists and Richard's publicist (or whomever handled the PR for this incident) acknowledged it. So, let's see -- verified video from the horse's mouth on multiple international news agencies = not notable? That's news to me. Frankly I think at this point anybody removing this event from the article should be given a warning or an RfC for repeat vandalism. Professor Ninja 21:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Please read our vandalism policy. Good faith edits are never vandalism as much as you or I disagree with them  Glen  21:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, perhaps condescendingly assuming I'm not familiar with "your" vandalism policy would be considered a bad faith edit? Or condescendingly assuming a bad-faith contribution on my part instead of the good faith assumption that what I meant was that any edit that so violates the notability policies repeatedly should be considered ex post facto bad faith? Would that be bad faith, Glen? Professor Ninja 22:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

He didn't say "my", he said "our". That would include all editors. Even you. He also didn't say anything about bad faith on your part, condescendingly or otherwise. I think you're confused. wikipediatrix 22:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Umm what?! Perhaps you should read the policy before commenting again Professor? I quote:

“ Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia. ”

Are you claiming wikipediatrix does not have the best interests of Wikipedia at heart?  Glen  23:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone tell me how this current revision helps anyone? The controversy section is now nearly the same size as his entire Seinfeld and pre-Seinfeld TV career. This is just ludicrous, there is absolutely no reason to have virtually an entire transcript on there. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, there's already links to the video, why is anything other than a basic encyclopedic outline needed? —B33R ^{Talk • Contribs} 22:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is ridiculous, tabloidish, unencyclopedic, and completely unfair to a living person. If the problem hasn't cleared up very soon, I'm going to reduce it to a single paragraph and if anyone wants to complain about it, they can take it to the WP:BLPN. (Edits made in the name of WP:BLP, incidentally, are exempt from the three-revert rule.) wikipediatrix 22:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't have to limit a section based on the size of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.211.4.32 (talk • contribs)

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Guess you've never heard of "Undue weight". wikipediatrix 22:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I was going to suggest the other sections are underdeveloped. This is a current event so it is easy for this section to grow with lots of information, useful and useless (feel free to edit the useless stuff like uneeded quotes, etc). I see no need why we need to limit ourselves because the rest of the article is small. 141.211.4.32 23:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Y'know you cry "undue weight" but have you actually even read the poilcy? The first sentence: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." On the Prominence of the incident, not how big the rest of the entry is. And most of the section deals with viewpoints, not informational context about an incident. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving!}} 01:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Not going to argue about it. Take it to WP:BLPN if you think I am in error. wikipediatrix 01:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You know not everyone is disgusted with his tirade. Plenty of fans don't even care. I think it is pretty damn funny actually. It's comedy gold. Just hope he doesn't have to pay any money to that nigger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.88.138 (talk • contribs)

I feel there should be some differentiation made regarding the apology. There was a second performance which he was allowed because he said he would make an apology, but no apology occurred. See the history @ http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Richards&oldid=89121491 Erik.hensarling 01:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

On a different note: Why is "Freemason" in the opening line?

Its hardly so notable as to deserve placement right next to Emmy Award winner and producer! And, looking at Category:American Freemasons (his category) I can't see from going down the list of other members one other article that even has this in the opening paragraph. Was this consensus from a prior discussion?  Glen  21:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved it down now. It was wrongly placed (and lacked a following comma too, so it read "Freemason writer"). Bwithh 22:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Controversy censorship

Uh, what's with the censorship of the controversy section (apart from one loaded ethnic slur which apparently doesn't qualify)? (WP:NOT#CENSORED) Bwithh 22:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The censorship has been removed (see also WP:Profanity: "words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters in the word with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols"). Strom 22:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Addition of Category:Racism

I am opposed to tagging this article with the Racism category. If you look at other articles in this category, it's not a list of racist people, it's meant to include articles on the topic of racism. This article is not about racism. It's about a celebrity. There is no precedent for the Racism category to be used on every person in Wikipedia who has ever been documented making racist statements. We also must consider that this article is a biography about a living person (see WP:BLP). While it is prudent to mention the event, this only adds to the needless controversy surrounding the article. Strom 00:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

--Agree. I added the thing below before I saw this. --Macarion 00:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Folks, the category isn't Category:Racist people, it's Category:Racism, big difference. The racism category concerns articles that are notably related to the concept. There are plenty of individuals in the category see: Jackie Mason, Mark Fuhrman, John Tyler Morgan, Johnny Rebel (singer), Joice Heth, and Jack van Tongeren. There's more where that came from. (→Netscott) 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

When you think about an encyclopedia and its coverage of history, do you really think that it's prudent to declare Michael Richards a notable figure in the history of racism? To say the very least, it's way too early to tell. As you can see above, I was a big proponent of covering this event (earlier, editors had totally removed the section and protected the article). However, that category is clearly underdeveloped, given that Hitler and Martin Luther King, Jr. aren't in it. I just don't think that haphazardly putting an underused category tag that smacks of a libel lawsuit is the right thing to do (again, given WP:BLP). If there was an actively-managed "Race-related current events" category, this article would be a great candidate. Strom 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think its clear the category is not designed for general use as you intend. Also, if you read those articles, you'll see that those people have their central occupations based around the subject. An actor who makes racist comments for 30 minutes one evening definitely doesnt qualify (no matter how bad the comments were)  Glen  00:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Racism category.

No, he wasn't actually suggesting that the man be lynched. We don't even know if this incident will be remembered at all a few months from now. His remarks weren't any new thing that someone would study if they were studying the history of racism. --Macarion 00:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Lynching in the United States

Adding text to the article about his line, "Fifty years ago we'd have you upside down with a fucking fork up your ass" relating to lynching in the United States does not in fact need a source due to the explicit nature of the statement. Wikipedia:No original research specifically allows for inclusion of text that is obvious in nature as this is. (→Netscott) 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It may not need a source, but it's not necessary. The way the sentence read was to this effect: "Michael Richards was caught on video talking about lynching ... " That's not the appropriate characterization of what he was caught doing. He was caught making a ton of horribly racist comments, one of which was about lynching. I just thought that it mischaracterized it, not as being too racist, but as being primarily about lynching. It was primarily about screaming racial slurs and having an on-stage anti-black meltdown. If you can find a better way to word that (i.e. not at the very beginning), I think that would be alright. I played with putting (see lynching) after the quote, but thought it broke up the sentence too much. Strom 00:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Despite the fact that his statement is an obvious reference to lynching I did a quick perusal of news sources and there is decent support for that addition. I'd rather you in good faith restore the lynching text yourself if you'd not mind. (→Netscott) 00:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, my real problem is not about sourcing, it's about mischaracterizing the topic of his comments. Feel free to re-add it in a way that doesn't cast his entire tirade as being about lynching, because that's just not quite accurate. Strom 01:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael Richards was probably attempting insult comedy, of which Don Rickles is probably the most famous historically, and most recently Lisa Lampanelli, who lampoons her own relationships with African American men. Howard Stern also got a lot of laughs as a shock jock insulting people of all types, while Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog raised the ire of Quebec, Canada for insulting them during a segment of the Conan O'Brien show. As the article on Don Rickles states, Rickles would usually insult hecklers and audience members as part of his routine. Chris Rock also uses the n-word in his routine (but of course, Rock can get away with it for obvious reasons). If a comic is over-the-top-offensive, it's because the comic is trying to get a laugh, even from the person who is the target of the "tirade" (see roast (comedy)). The Comedy Central roast of William Shatner actually roasted everybody on the dais, from Farrah Fawcett to George Takei to Nichelle Nichols.

Numbchuckles 00:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Numbchuckles, you're probably relying upon your own original research as you add this above talk. Cite what you are saying and source it. I'm citing and sourcing what I'm adding... it's all about notable and verifiable reliable sources. (→Netscott) 00:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Netscott, I put this information on this discussion page merely as a well documented historical background for people who might be unfamiliar with the concept of "insult comedy"; they only need to follow the Wikipedia links to Don Rickles, Lisa Lampanelli, and the other Wikipedia articles I mentioned to see that Richards' schtick isn't a new phenomenon. The situation really needs to be seen in the context of where it happened (during a stand-up comic's performance) and to whom (hecklers in the audience) before people start immediately acting upon the suggestion that Richards be categorized on a list of racists or take his words literally or twist his words or feel compelled to vandalize the page. As no mention of "insult comedy" existed on this page hitherto, it seemed like an appropriate time to bring up the topic. (The wikipedia article "hecklers" also has some information on how comics in the past have handled their hecklers, usually with insults.)

Numbchuckles 01:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you really going to try and contort what was clearly a meltdown of racial epithets into some sort of purposeful form of comedy? Did you bother to even watch the tape? Did Don Rickles ever walk off and have the announcer come on an apologize afterwards?

Nobody cares that Michaels responded to hecklers — that's perfectly fine, par for the course. The problem was the racist meltdown — targeting the hecklers not just as hecklers, but as African-Americans.

There wasn't anything funny about the bit. The audience clearly saw this. Richards himself clearly saw that he had lost control. It is a sad thing to watch. I don't know that it necessarily means that Richards is a racist at the core, but the comments were clearly racist. And I think we can judge from the audience reaction (the "Oh my god", the sudden silence, the getting-up-and-leaving) that Richard's use of the n-word was clearly not done in a comedic context, and clearly took things in a very ugly direction.

This ain't a Don Rickles act. And if you can't claim to see the difference between how Chris Rock uses the N-word and how it is used when it is shouted in genuine rage by a white man, then you're either an idiot or a liar. --24.147.86.187 05:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

He was just trying to be shocking and showing the power words have over people. Comedians do this all the time. Watch Mind of Mencia one of these days. Skits like "Kanye West is a Crazy Nigga" are lined up right next to skits like "Ask Whitey". Richards really got the last laughs over all America, especially all yall who are up in arms editing this article. A washed up ex-actor speaks a taboo word and makes it to the front pages and yall buy it hook-line-sinker. He's a modern day Lenny Bruce but tweaking the PC liberals this time around while simultaneously exposing their hypocrisy. Imagine Chris Rock making a joke about cracker hecklers and being called a negro in return. Would this make the PC grave injustice of the day websites? Eviltwinster 07:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:Recentism

I've already made a number of reverts on this article and so I won't be reverting anymore today but unfortunately this article is suffering from recentism. There's no need for an entire transcript of what transpired the other night on this article (in fact the inclusion of the text is likely a copyright violation). I would advise fellow editors to trim this (currently entitled) "Racism controversy" section down again. Thanks. (→Netscott) 01:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong agree (I'm in the same position with regard to number of reverts). There is no reason for the full transcript to be included in this article. Also see WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:TE##Undue_weight for discussions on this. A good example of well-written coverage of a celebrity's controversial outburst at a videotaped event is this: Kanye West#2006. Note that the issue is summarized in a few sentences with links to articles that contain the entire transcript and videos (or links to videos). There is no need to include all of this detail within the wikipedia article. Strom 01:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Including the entire transcript

I added this section obviously as the one above was added... great minds think alike :)

C'mon guys this

1. adds nothing to the article that a synopsis could not and
2. Looks ridiculous as it dominates the entire article
3. takes advantage of this discussion - editors here who believe this shouldnt be included at all - it seems they have allowed a compromise, but this new section abuses that allowance

I am placing this here to see if there is strong objection, otherwise this addition should be reversed  Glen  01:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC) Strong agree that the transcript should be outed. A few quotes & a link suffice, and as it is now it completely dominates the article and add nothing that the quotes and link wouldn't. caz | speak 01:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Leave the entire script on the talk page until a consensus. I typed it up from the video as close as I could get. It is better than some of the other transcripts. --Kalmia 01:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Wikisource it if you can't agree to put it in the article.--Kalmia 01:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Where the transcript starts

seems to infer that it was richards who initiated it, which is not true. WillC 01:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That is where the recording started. If you have anything prior to that that you know of, please add it. --Kalmia 01:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Richards: "Shut up! Fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass."

[Some audience laughter]

"You can talk, you can talk, you can talk; you're brave now motherfucker! Throw his ass out, he's a nigger. He's a nigger! He's a nigger!"

A female audience member: "Oh my God."

Richards: "A nigger! Look, there's a nigger!"

"Oooh! Ooh!"

(Moderates tone) "Alright, you see? This shocks you. It shocks you to see what's buried beneath you stupid motherfuckers."

A male audience member: "That was uncalled for!"

Richards: "What wasn't called for?"

"It's uncalled for you to interrupt my ass, you cheap motherfucker!"

A female audience member: "Oh my goodness."

Richards: "You guys have been talkin' and talkin' and talkin'."

"I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."

A female audience member: "This guy's going nuts."

[audience members begin leaving]

Richards: "What's the matter? Is this too much for you people to handle?"

[tape cut]

Richards: "They are going to arrest me for calling a black man a nigger?"

"Wait a minute; where's he going?"

A male audience member: "That was uncalled for you fucking cracker-ass motherfucker"

Richards: "Cracker-ass? You calling me cracker-ass, nigga?

A male audience member: "Fucking White boy."

Richards: "Are you threatening me?"

A male audience member: "We'll see what's up."

Richards: "Oh, it's a big threat. That's how you get back at the man."

A male audience member: That was real uncalled for."

Richards: "Wait a minute. He's not going is he?"

A male audience member: "It's not funny. That's why you're a reject—never had no shows, never had no movies. Seinfeld, that's it."

Richards: "Oh, I guess you got me there. You're absolutely right. I'm just a wash up. Gotta stand on the stage."

[Richards mumbles]

A male audience member: "That's it. We've had it. We've had it."

A male audience member: "That's un-fucking called for. That ain't necessary."

Richards: "Well, you interrupted me, pal. That's what happens when you interrupt the white man; don't you know?"

A male audience member: "Uncalled for. That was uncalled for."

Richards: "You see? You see, there's still those words, those words, those words."

[Richards leaves stage]

[A male in suit takes the stage]

Male in suit: "I just wanna say, uh—Sorry about that."

"Richards:" "The sherrif's a ni...."

---

Is this so blatantly racist? Can we at least include the "Alright, you see? This shocks you. It shocks you to see what's buried beneath you stupid motherfuckers." part, where he suddenly moderated his tone? This smells like its being taken way out of context, it's just really unfortunate. -- Jarno V. 09:41 CET, 21 November 2006

I quite agree. There is NO documentation of the context surrounding his comments. The video was subtitled by the audience member extremely quickly that night and immediately put on the web - hatchet job? There have been many suggestions that this tirade was part of a confrontational segment about what shocks people, which puts an entirely different slant on it. He obviously suffered extremely poor judgement and went about it the wrong way, but it's a mistake, rather than evidence of glaring racism. 12:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Article is continuing to heat up

It looks like Michael Richards is appearing via satellite on Letterman, where Seinfeld is scheduled to appear: Michael Richards Apology Tour To Begin On Tonight's Letterman Show. The importance of keeping this article's balance will continue to be critical. We may not always agree on wording or even our interpretation of his comments, but it's good to see so many experienced editors taking an interest. Thanks to everyone for their work! Strom 01:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources of the day from TMZ.com, if people need them handy:

• Seinfeld on "Kramer" Tirade: "I Am Sick"
• Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word
• This one has a clip of The Late Show appearence: Richards -- "I'm Really Busted Up" (interesting, as apparently his response was as strange as his tirade) --Bobak 02:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Letterman appearance

I think there should be some reference to Richards' appearance on David Letterman's show. At times, it appeared somewhat incoherent (some in the audience thought it was a joke at first, with some awkward pauses in Richards' on-camera address, and his use of the obsolete term "Afro-Americans" at one instance), with references to Hurricane Katrina, "black/white tension" and other observations about society.

Jerry Seinfeld (who arranged Richards' appearance) noted Richards' actions at the comedy club were inexcusable but that "[Richards] deserved an opportunity to apologize." By the end of Richards' address, he sounded more coherent, and contrite, and drew applause from the Letterman crowd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.40.194 (talk • contribs) 05:10, 21 November 2006

Banned?

While the recent edits say he was permanently, many other articles state things like: "Richards did appear at the club Saturday, without incident, but that was because he had told the club he intended to apologize, according to a Laugh Factory statement Monday." This to me would indicate he's allowed to perform on there on the condition that he apologize, which he has. Given that these two articles seem contradictory, I think any info. on his banning should be removed until it's cleared up if it really is in effect. caz | speak 06:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a reliable source, but Laugh Factory issued a statement on their site that says "We have made it clear that Mr. Richards is no longer welcomed here." [2] Jokestress 06:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh... how is information about The Laugh Factory from a press release from The Laugh Factory unreliable? --Savethemooses 06:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it's clearly a temporary blurb on their site that will be removed in time and won't be verifiable. See this. I'm sure it will be quoted in a reliable source soon. Jokestress 07:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Source for in on Kaufman joke?

I knew the story about his blowup at Kaufman. I had heard that someone said Michael Richards was in on the joke. Does anyone remember the source for this? Was it Zmuda? Another member of the Fridays cast?

At first I thought the current controversy was some Kaufman-esque joke. Plant some hecklers, call them niggers, that's pretty edgy comedy. However after seeing his 'apology' on Letterman it's clear that there is no Kaufman behind this and just a sick sad and broken man. I just wanted to make sure Michael Richards wasn't the only one that said he was in on the joke with Andy because that would be easy for him to do to save face after Andy was dead, but I have a hard time believing it now. Kfort 06:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a source for the Fridays bit and follow-up. [3] Jokestress 07:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that it happened, I want to know the source that Michael Richards was in on the joke. Kfort 07:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

'in on the joke' means that Andy told him about it beforehand Kfort 07:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"No one, as a matter of fact, knew about it, except Jack Burns, myself, Andy, and one of the other producers, John Moffet. The cast did not know." [4] Jokestress 07:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, so the only source we have that Michael Richards knew about it beforehand is Michael Richards. I really wish someone could track down Jack Burns or John Moffet and ask them if they knew Michael Richards was in on it. Kfort 07:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I changed the wording to reflect the source, I hope this is acceptable Kfort 07:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine. Here's John Moffitt with his version of events. [5] Also LA Weekly. [6] Jokestress 07:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Just in light of the recent events it makes me wonder if either 1) Andy told Michael about it because he knew Michael was a great actor with a good sense of humor, or 2) Andy picked a skit with Michael to break character because he knew he had a short fuse. Unless a second source (such as John or Jack) can claim they knew that Michael was in on it (not just that they were in on it) I would prefer that we identify the source of this bit of info since it reflects character.

Italian-American?

Does anyone have a WP:RS that he's of Italian descent? His mother's maiden name is Nardozzi, and if this is his family tree, it appears his maternal grandparents were Italian. But Rootsweb doesn't really pass WP:RS... Mad Jack 07:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments by others

I moved these here for discussion:

Kenny Kramer commented that Richards "had a tantrum. Michael is not racist; he is just not a very streetwise performer". Comedian George Lopez said he believed the reason for the outburst was Richards' inexperience in stand-up comedy. "...you have an actor who is trying to be a comedian who doesn't know what to do when an audience is disruptive.... He's an actor whose show has been off the air, he shouldn't ever be on a stand-up gig." Hollywood publicist Michael Levine, commenting that comics often deal with hecklers without becoming unglued, added, "I've never seen anything like this in my life.... I think it's a career ruiner for him. ... It's going to be a long road back for him, if at all."

These don't really add much to an encyclopedic article. A comment from Jerry Seinfeld might be more relevant, since the Letterman coverage happened during his segment, or perhaps from community leaders, but the quotations above seem to be recentism. Thoughts? Jokestress 11:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)