Talk:Buddhism and Christianity

Hi, how do you clean up phantom tags?--Shravak 20:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Size of the quote table

Would it be okay if the table used normal sized font? It's a tad hard to read as it is and increasing the font size doesn't make the page too much longer. Koweja 18:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Marvin Harris

Marvin Harris detected the apparition of peace and love religions that focus on the spiritual over animal-sacrifice religions (Buddhism, Jainism, modern Hinduism, Christianism) and attributed them to population increases and ecological-economical changes that make inconvenient or unfeasible the use of religion for meat distribution. So some of the parallels may come from concurrent evolution rather than contact.

Criticisms Section

To me this article comes across as biased towards making out Christianity borrowed most of its ideas from Budhism, should there be a section summing up the arguments against this and pointing out the differences between the two religions?

It is considered preferable to make each section of an article NPOV rather than adding a Criticism section to a POV article. So everywhere the article says Christianity borrowed from Buddhism, it is appropriate to demand reliable and verifiable sources, even if they are scholarly books buried in theological libraries rather than pop religion sites. This groung has been trod by scholars for many generations. Thre is no excuse for making any historical claim without providing scholarly references which cite archeological finds and ancient writings. Edison 15:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the more recent version is far more biased in that it glosses over (and often completely ignores) the parallels of Buddhism and Christianity, not to mention Buddhisms influence over Christianity.

True, the original version did seem to have a slight biased tone, but that does not undermine the actual facts presented, which were (as far as I could tell) fairly accurate.

This article should have been deleted!

Previously, two identical articles to this were created under an almost identical names, then got put up for deletion and eventually deleted (Click Here) Probably the same person has created this article under a subtly different name (by adding an underscore in the title) in order to follow their agenda of trying to create an article promoting their theory that Christianity was copied from Buddhism. In doing this they are not only abusing Wikipedia's good reputation by using it to look like a credible source not only supports their view but presents it as undisputable fact (so they can go posting on forums etc, ‘look, even Wikipedia, famous for its neutrality, supports everything I say…’) as well as completely disregarding Wikipedia's deletion policy by recreating the article after it repeatedly gets deleted. Can this article, on the bases of previous deletion votes get deleted? Moreover whomever keeps creating these articles on the parallels of Buddha and Jesus not just recreate it under an almost identical name after it is deleted and respect Wikpedia’s deletion policy!

Those with knowledge of and interest in the subject should give it their editorial attention. Similarities of Christianity and eastern religions was suitable subject matter in Christian protestant theological seminaries for the past many decades, so the subject is notable.This is a part of Comparative Religion, which is in the curriculum of many leading universities. The only question is the quality of the references provided and the need to keep the article NPOV, which is properly addressed by the editing process. In other words, there is nothing forbidden about the article topic, which is notable and found in paper encyclopedias and in the world of religious scholarship. Such scholarship is an alternative to the viewpoint that one's religion was revealed miraculously by God in its final form. Edison 15:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You linked to Wikiquote, which is not the same thing as Wikipedia. They have their own rules for what topics are not appropriate so just because something is deleted from wikiquote it doesn't mean it should be deleted from here.Koweja 18:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry-I didn't realise wikiquote had different rules, I now know for future reference

Original work?

References for most of the work has been added and there is very little if any "original work"...Most of the work, the central core of this article, has been supported by previous scholars and religous figures and their works are mentioned in citations.--216.254.121.169 16:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I see absolutely no citations for describing the "parallel sayings" as parallel sayings. That whole section seems to be completely original research in its layout and in what it suggests. The fact that the quotes are real quotes has no bearing on the question of whether that's original research. Xtifr _tälk 00:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

the sources are listed on the bottom of the page. There are many books with their own parallel sayings findings and this is an anthology and breaking down of the Buddha and Jesus myths, the easiest way to present these similarities is in a table format as there are so many parallels,Kersten alone claims to have found more than one hundred passages in the New Testament that can be aligned with Buddhist scriptures--216.254.121.169 00:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are the sources of many of the parallel sayings and lives which I have listed at the bottom of the table: sources:

Elmar R. Gruber & Holger Kersten. The Original Jesus: The Buddhist Sources of Christianity

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, Acharya S.

Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings (Seastone Series)(Paperback)

by Marcus J. Borg (Editor), Ray Riegert (Editor), Jack Kornfield (Introduction)<

Blavatsky Collected Writings Volume 14 introduction by Boris DeZirkoff Excerpt- http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/bcw/vol14/mystery-about-buddha.htm

Holger Kersten, Jesus Lived in India. His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion, Element, Reprint 1999</ref>

Holger Kersten, 'Buddhist Thought in the Teachings of Jesus'

Ok, thanks, that works for me, but you need to make it a lot more clear. This section was probably the most commonly cited feature mentioned as a reason for deletion in the deletion discussion. I voted to keep, but this section still made me very uncomfortable, the way it's presented. The table format may be easy, but there really needs to be more evidence that it's not OR. At the very least, I strongly suggest that you break it down into sub-tables by source, for easier referencing and citing. And make it a lot more clear, in general, who is making the claims of parallelism, so the reader can judge for themselves. Frankly, some of these don't seem very parallel to me, no matter who claims they are. Even if it's not OR, it seems a bit POV, and, in general, it's best to present such things as an expert's opinion, rather than baldly stating them as fact. Comparitive Religion is a topic fraught with points of view, even (or especially) among the experts, so it's best to as much room for multiple POVs to be shown in an article like this. Cheers. Xtifr _tälk 01:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Acharya S? Have you ever read WP:RS? She has to publish with a publisher that focuses on UFOs. That should tell you something. A.J.A. 17:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hitting the reset button

I grow weary of the table. Tables are ugly. It still lacks decent sources. Nobody bothered to remove the quotes which aren't even similar yet are listed as parallels.

The title of this article is POV. A.J.A. 17:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I found the table to have some very insight comparisons. It could be better cited and some comparison could be removed, but overall it had some great points. Subjective ugliness is certainly not a reason to delete information. Juan Ponderas

Insightful comparisons are WP:OR. A.J.A. 07:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Insightful comparisons improve the encyclopedia. Wikipedia: Ignore all rules -Juan Ponderas

Further Reading

The first item listed on Further Reading was Helena Blavatsky. Now Blavatsky is obviously a fringe source, but there may be similar items lists which aren't so obvious, suggesting the entire list needs to be carefully sifted. Therefore I'm moving it here.

• Blavatsky, H. P. Isis Unveiled (1877)
• J. Duncan M. Derrett. The Bible and the Buddhists. Sardini 2000. ISBN 88-7506-174-2 [1] [2]
• Richard Garbe: Indien und das Christentum [3]
• Elmar R. Gruber & Holger Kersten. The Original Jesus: The Buddhist Sources of Christianity.
• Streeter, Burnett H., The Buddha and The Christ, an Exploration of the Meaning of the Universe and of the Purpose of Human Life, Macmillan and Co., London, 1932.
• Allegro, John, The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls Revised, Grammercy Publishing Co., New York, 1981 (first published Penguin Books, 1956).
• Amore, Roy C., Two Masters, One Message, The Lives and the Teachings of Gautama and Jesus, Parthenon Press, Nashville, 1978.
• de Silva, Lynn, A., The Problem of the Self in Buddhism and Christianity, Macmillan Press, London, 1979. -Reincarnation in Buddhist and Christian Thought, 1968.
• Haring, Hermann & Metz, Johann-Baptist, eds., Reincarnation or Resurrection?, SCM Press, Maryknoll, 1993.
• Head, Joseph, & Cranston, S.L., eds., Reincarnation An East-West Anthology (Including quotations from the world's religions & from over 400 western thinkers), Julian Press, New York, 1961.
• Howe, Quincy, Jr., Reincarnation for the Christian, Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1974.
• Leaney, A.R.C., ed., A Guide to the Scrolls, Nottinham Studies on the Qumran Discoveries, SCM Book Club, Naperville, Ill., 1958.
• Lefebure, Leo D., The Buddha and the Christ, Explorations in Buddhist and Christian Dialogue (Faith Meets Faith Series), Orbis Books, Maryknoll, New York, 1993.
• Lillie, Arthur, Buddhism in Christendom or Jesus, the Essene, Unity Book Service, New Delhi, 1984 (first published in 1887). *India in Primitive Christianity, Kegan House Paul, Trench, Trübner & Co., 1909.
• Lopez, Donald S. & Rockefeller, Steven C., eds., The Christ and the Bodhisattva, State University of New York, 1987. Phan, *Peter, ed., Christianity and the Wider Ecumenism, Paragon House, New York, 1990.
• Pye, Michael & Morgan, Robert, eds., The Cardinal Meaning, Essays in Comparative Hermeneutics: Buddhism and Christianity, *Mouton & Co., Netherlands, 1973.
• Radhakrishnan, S., Eastern Religions in Western Thought, Oxford University Press, 1939.
• Siegmund, Georg, Buddhism and Christianity, A Preface to Dialogue, Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, trans., University of Alabama Press, 1968.
• Smart, Ninian, Buddhism and Christianity: Rivals and Allies, Macmillan, London, 1993.
• Tambyah, Isaac T., A Comparative Study of Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity, Indian Book Gallery, Delhi, 1983 (first edition 1925).
• Yu, Chai-shin, Early Buddhism and Christianity, A comparative Study of the Founders' Authority, the Community, and the Discipline, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1981.

A.J.A. 18:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

RfC

I will shortly be making an RfC.

Although I explained my removals in the edit summaries, let me take the opportunity here to explain at more length, or rather to indicate where I'd like the article to go and how I expect my actions will help it get there. As I said in the AfD discussion, a high-quality article on the general topic would be encyclopedic and interesting, and have virtually nothing in common with the version then under discussion. Unfortunately, there is enough deceptive similarity to discourage movement in the right direction. That version is long, it has pictures, it has (as has been pointed out by the person/people I'm in conflict with) references. But it's a polemic in favor of a minority viewpoint, namely that Christianity is copied from Buddhism. I realize that "Christianity is copied from previous religion Y" is a popular argument with certain skeptics (who are over-represented on the internet); it is nevertheless not taken seriously in accademia, and even if it were could only be described neutrally, not advocated. In this case, the primary contributor (an anon who may or may not be the same person as User:Dembot) is not a typical skeptic but rather apparently a Buddhist who has been editing to promote the view that other religions in general copied from Buddhism (see Talk:Buddhism and Hinduism).

I concluded that the article needed a total re-write. I considered the content for some time and could find very little that could be salvaged, so I turned it into a stub. Although I'm probably not going to be able to produce the article that should be there, clearing the ground is necessary so there's room for it and so potential contributors will see the lack of good content right away. Of course, others may be able to salvage bits of the old version I couldn't, which I would welcome.

I also moved the article to its current title, which is both more neutral and broader in scope than the previous title, "Buddhist-Christian parallels".

The anon/User:Saavak123/Dembot has reacted by accusing me of vandalism (both in edit summaries on this page and on WP:AN/I, where it was ignored), being uncivil in various other ways [4], edit warring, and pasting his version onto all the redirect pages [5] [6] [7].

His version is [8], and mine is [9]. A.J.A. 18:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Definitely needs an overhaul -- or deletion. Seems a random collection of ill-substantiated facts, not an article. Goldfritha 02:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This is basically a non-article right now-- it's more an idea for a good title for an article. I'd say if anyone wants to take a stab at writing a good article with this title, they should feel free to. --Alecmconroy 13:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Although there is some quite interesting material here in the long form of the article, a lot of it is poorly sourced and tendentious. In most of the parallel sayings, for example, the parallelism is pretty weak. Suggest retrieving about 1/3rd of the original article - the material that is best sourced - and place it in more rounded context. Also should mention the views of scholars who suggest that similarities are due to idepenendent convergence rather than influence. NBeale 07:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Repeated vandalisms

It seems the "edits" being performed remove everything that certain Christian groups find offensive. What is left is left makes it seem that Christianity influenced Buddhism or say nothing at all. All of the removed information has adequate reserarch and bibliography.

Additionally there is a link for a book from a Christian author whose subject has nothing to do at all with this topic. Nothing more than an attempt to use a "scholarly" approach to silence a subject that some view with disdain.

There seem to be a variety of policies of which you are unaware. Most obviously, WP:CIVIL. You shouldn't be accusing me of vandalism when what is going on is an ordinary content dispute.

The most important policy is WP:NPOV. NPOV stands for "neutral point of view", and the policy means Wikipedia articles should not be advocacy pieces for a controversial theory. A.J.A. 16:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the best way to rewrite this article would be to post the original, albeit potentially NPOV, text so that it can be worked with. The connections between Christainity and Buddhism are definitely in need of considerstion, and this article needs some seed to work off of before the article can be appropriately reconsidered. I would simply add a stipulation that the re-inserted text would be used as a resource, and not simply copied in verbatim.

Talk:Christianity and Buddhism/Old version

Here is the "original" version (as in the last non-almost-blanked version before the page was locked). Maybe we can work on this as the annon suggested above. Maybe we can stop with the name calling and simply deleting things because we don't like the format and would rather complain about what other people aren't doing than to actually do it ourselves. Then maybe, we can have an article that is more than a stub with two template stuck on. Koweja 02:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Buddhism and Christianity page templates

How come the Buddhism is one is pushed down below the Christianity one? They should be side-by-side for political correctness. Some one please fix this -Thegreyanomaly 00:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)