Talk:Merlin

My rewrite of this article was prompted by this passage in the original:

Stories of his origins include his birth as the intended Antichrist, being the offspring of a demon fathered on a virgin; but his expectant mother, realising what was amiss, had him baptized at birth to foil this Satanic plot. However, being half-demon, he still had tremendous magical powers.

Now my memory is not as good as I think it was (e.g., I probably never could keep my facts in my head), but having read widely in the Arthurian mythos, I have never seen any suggestion that Merlin was wholy, partly, or when in costume on Hollowe'en, a demon! The people who told the stories of Arthur and Merlin before the 20th century would never lightly suggest that someone was kin to the Antichrist, not only because that personage was the ultimate evil made human, but his presence would be a harbinger of the Apocalypse. Merlin was always portrayed as a positive individual, an asset to the people of Britain, although in the later stories his desire for Nimue brought on his downfall.

I have to assume that this story of Merlin was written by someone who not only knew of the later legends of Merlin better than the earlier, but for whom "Antichrist" has the same connotation as any monster encountered in a Dungeons & Dragons game. In other words, someone from the last quarter of the 20th century.

If this is the creation of a published author, proper attribution would allow us to add this bizarre tale to this article. There are certainly enough bizarre tales about well-known personages -- for example the story of "The Great God Pan is dead" told in Plutarch. However, I suspect that this tale is just an imaginative creation of someone eager to add to the Wikipedia, and had never existed beyond this one article. But until we see more evidence either way, I'm placing this snippet of a story here in Talk. -- llywrch 02:11 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

Miguel de Cervantes's Don Quixote (17th century) mocks books about chivalry. Chapter XXIII of the second part. My translation:

This is my friend Durandarte, cream and mirror of inamoured and brave knights of his time. He is held here under a charm, as I and many others are, by Merlin, that charmer Frenchman that is said to be son of the devil; and what I believe is that he was not son of the devil, but that he knew, as they day, one nottch over the devil.

-- Error

I've seen other references to Merlin as the son of a demon and a mortal woman, some of which attribute the idea to the Geoffrey of Monmouth version. I have to admit, though, the bit about the Antichrist is a new one on me, and I agree with Llywrch that it sounds like a 20th century tack-on.

--Paul A 04:05 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Just for the record, I got the Merddyn / merde explanation from this web page. It seems credible, but I admit that it's weak evidence. -- Heron

That's actually the interpretation I've seen in the secondary literature. If further citations are needed (e.g., people with letters after their names, with a job at an educational institution, with papers published in peer-reviewed journals), I'll provide them. -- llywrch 21:00, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have to disagree that "most modern popular interpretations ...depict Merlin as a wizard of ultimate power." Many of the most popular modern works (e.g. Mary Stewart's trilogy) focus on the human side of Merlin. Some (e.g. MZB's Mists of Avalon) actually go to great lengths to point out his shortcomings. -- Meara

Fiction

Was Historia Regum Britanniae intended as fiction?--Error 04:44, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well that depends, in part, on whether Geoffrey & his contemporaries believed that there was a genre known as fiction. I say this because I suspect few in the audience of a storyteller honestly thought everything they heard was the unvarnished, actual truth; they expected the truth stretched a little to fit the tale -- but at the same time, they expected their story tellers to tell a story accurately, & not to take liberties like change the ending.

So I guess the question then becomes, "Is the Historia Regum Britanniae a serious history or a tale told to entertain?" From what is known of the response of his contemporaries, few of them accepted his work as sober history comparible to, say Bede. William of Newburgh wrote that Geoffrey "disguised under the honourable name of history, thanks to his Latinity, the fables about Arthur which he took from the ancient fictions of the Britons and increased out of his own head." Having read Historia Regum Britanniae, I would say that it is clearly a low-brow account of its material: every person in the work is a stereotype, battles are fought between armies of enormous size, & provinces that are devestated one year are apparently fertile & bountiful the next.

However, the same could be said of several justly-forgotten medieval historians. Unlike theirworks, however the quality of the traditions shine through Geoffrey's mediocre ability, & I would say this is what captivated his audience.

So, in summary, I'd expect his readers were attracted to him for the story, not for the history. Some also uncritically assumed that what Geoffrey wrote was reliable history -- but their number were never large, & ceased to matter with the 17th century. -- llywrch 00:37, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have to admit, I didn't know any of this when placing it under fiction. Feel free to change the heading to "Related Literature" or whatever you feel is most accurate. In any case, I think this fact-vs-fiction discussion of Historia Regum Britanniae should be part of the main article or an article of its own, not buried in this talk page. It's good stuff! --68.85.27.88 01:53, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've put back, in slightly changed form, the Antichrist passage. See also the links I've provided in the bibliography to three different web sites which provide English versions of this planned Antichrist version as written by Robert de Boron. --User:jallan 23:04, 10 April 2004 (UTC)

That the medievals believed Merlin was part demon is believeable; for them to believe he was the Antichrist simply isn't. The Antichrist has so many eschatological associations (e.g., the end of the world) that it would not be lightly added to any story. If you think killing a dragon is difficult, how can a mortal physically battle the true Prince of Darkness? -- llywrch 19:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I realized I had accidently left out the word "Antichrist" in restoring the passage which I intended to change only enough to fit a slightly changed context. I have added it in again.

The link [1] was generated by searching in Google on [Antichrist OR Anti-christ Merlin] which found approximately 5,740 entries. While many of these are not pertinent, perhaps most of them, many of them do discuss Robert de Boron's account and use the term (though some probably do not know where exactly this form of the tale comes from).

The word almost always occurs in such discusions of this form of the legend because it fits. It is certainly not only used by writers of the later half of the twentieth century.

No-one believed that Merlin was "The Antichrist". THat is part of the point of the story. In Robert de Boron's version he was begotten by a devil as "an intended Antichrist", the indefinite article and the word "intended" being very important. Robert's story shows that by God's grace the devils' plans were overthrown. The mortal child of a devil was able to overcome the princes of darkness just as any mortal can do according to general Christian philosphy: through Christian baptism, chosing the right path, and trusting in God.

Read Robert de Boron's account from the second, third or fifith entry in the Bibliography. This account is the one best known to medieval folk.

Change the word "Antichrist" to lowercase if you wish. But I think "an intended antichist" or "an intended anti-christ" should stay as indicating the intentions of the devils. Nor is Merlin a perfect paragon of morality, even outside of the Prose Lancelot claim that Merlin never did any good in his life. Merlin's lechery is legendary in some tales. Merlin's love affair with Morgaine la Fee is covered in the Prose Lancelot, the Vulgate Merlin, the Post-Vulgate Merlin and the Prophecies of Merlin. From the medieval Perlesvaus ( http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Graal/branch20.html ):

"Lords, in this sepulchre was placed the body of Merlin, but never mought it be set inside the chapel, wherefore perforce it remained outside. And know of a very truth that the body lieth not within the sepulchre, for, so soon as it was set therein, it was taken out and snatched away, either on God's behalf or the Enemy's, but which we know not."

Neither explanation helps Merlin's reputation. This work also quite reasonably condemns Uther's deception of Igraine as enabled by Merlin as a sin. Robert de Boron himself is obviously somewhat uneasy about the matter but is stuck with the tale.

jallan 02:22, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That Fiction about Merlin section needs to be cleaned up. Citing any random story that has a walk-on by Merlin or a character named Merlin is rather dumb. We should stick to stories that are significantly featuring or "about Merlin" and that feature a Merlin recognisable as the one of legend. The Merlin in Amber, for example, shares nothing with the legendary character other than an ability to use magic, as far as I can see. Sending someone who wants to read about the character off to an Amber book would not be appropriate. I removed the Amber reference, but I'm not familiar with enough of the other material to go beyond that. That Dark Tower reference looks rather iffy.

Scott Dubin

Notable mentions page?

How about a page just for notable mentions or just mentions? Two I know off the top of my head are...

• Merlin is the first king of Xanth.
• Merlin is an Ancient from the Stargate series who built Avalon.

There may be others, but there could be a whole list of these. The main article wouldn't be tainted with the list.

(If this comment is on a user's talk page, please respond here.)

- Lady Aleena (04:02 on 8 January 2025)

Sounds better than having a list on this page, but I really don't see what use something like that would be other than to divert fans who want their favorite reference included. I'd just as soon remove it entirely.--Cúchullain t / c 22:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. -- Kjkolb 04:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Merlin (wizard) → Merlin – Merlin the wizard is by far the most common use of Merlin. The disambig should be at Merlin (disambiguation). Cúchullain ^t/c 18:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - the bird and engine are separate. It is not sufficiently clear-cut. Better to leave it as it is. -- Beardo 06:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

  Comment The bird and engine are separate, but this individual is by far the best known Merlin. The page was moved here some time ago with no discussion.--Cúchullain ^t/c 06:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support as primary contemporary usage. This will also require moving Merlin to Merlin (disambiguation). Septentrionalis 18:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ayreon - The Final Experiment

The Final Experiment is a rock opera album from A Project called Ayreon. The man who made Ayreon is called Arjen Lucassen. The album has many singers that represents characters and tells a story.

In the Story, Merlin is the bad guy who locks up Ayreon(The Protagonist) in prison because he is jealous of his gift to forsee the future.

I am going to put The Final Experiment in to the Novels and Plays Section, because this is a rock opera.

Deimoss 04:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraphs

I would humbly suggest that the first paragraph or two be uncluttered with names, excessive bold print, translations into Welsh, and other distractions. I see that the style of trying to jam all kinds of informaion and bold print into the first few sentences if very common in Wikipedia. However, to be honest, this makes the articles completely unreadable and unusable to the average reader. The average reader does not want to dig through a long boring bunch of minutae. The average reader wants to know quickly in a sentence or two about the topic, and why they should care. Based on what they read in the first paragraph or two, they might continue reading. Who really cares what his full name was in Welsh in the first sentence or two, when they are still trying to find out who Merlin is? That is my view.--Filll 13:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What on earth does this sentence mean?

The stories of Wyllt and Emrys have become different in the earliest texts that they are treated as separate characters, even though similar incidents are ascribed to both. I was simplifying this and I all of a sudden realized I do not know what it was supposed to mean. --Filll 04:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

here is another I cannot understand: It seems that the name was taken to mean "Caer of [some man called] Myrddin".--Filll 05:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sun of a nun

"Geoffrey's version of the character was immediately popular. Later writers produced a fuller image of Merlin. Merlin was the son of a nun and an incubus." (from the intro) - who says this, geoffrey or the later writers? Totnesmartin 17:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)