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Merged Archive WikiProject Preclinical medicine: 1 Merged Archive WikiProject Clinical medicine: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 WikiProject Medicine Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172

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Medical journals with undeclared COI

Something to pay attention to when using academic journals: https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/9/7/e029796.full.pdf

We have shown previously that in a random sample of 350 journals only 1% (2/350) of the journal websites had declarations on individual editors’ potential CoIs, whereas 82% (287/350) required disclosure of authors’ CoIs. The USA OPD has shed light on editors’ CoI by providing data on the payments by industry to journal editors also working as clinicians in the USA. In 2014, 51% and 20% of 713 of clinicians working as editors in 52 top medicine journals in 25 different specialties received general payments (eg, consultancy, honorariums, meals, travel) and research payments from industry

In my opinion, journals with stricter COI practices should be preferred as sources. Realistically we cannot enforce this for all edits and citations, but it may be worth keeping in mind when there is a conflict on sources. Nemo 15:02, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I wonder how much it matters in practice. On a large editorial board, would the one person with a COI be likely to handle any given paper anyway? Do we even know which editor handled which paper?

I think disclosing COIs to the public probably signals a sense that they're serious about integrity, but I'm not sure that it makes a difference. (That is, caring about integrity matters, but the act of public disclosure may be irrelevant.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Nope. The research focused on «all usual editorial positions, such as editors in chief, executive editors, deputy editors and associate editors or their equivalent. We presumed that these job positions would be involved in the editorial decision-making process».

Nevertheless, if the editorial board's members don't disclose COI, how can the journal ensure a proper peer review and make sure submissions are reviewed by people without improper interests? There might be many members in an editorial board, but the amount has little consequence if all or many submissions on a certain topic are sent to the same people based on their specific field of work (which is also likely to be the one where they have COIs if any). Nemo 19:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

That assumes that "not disclosed on the website" is equivalent to "unknown to the organization itself", which is absurd. They didn't measure whether the org collected or used information about COIs; they only measured whether it was visible on the journal's public website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:43, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

It's not an assumption and it's not absurd, it's consistent with ICMJE recommendations: «Editors should publish regular disclosure statements about potential conflicts of interests related to their own commitments and those of their journal staff». Nemo 06:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Agree with User:Nemo_bis COI concerns are a very significant issue within medicine and threaten the entire profession. Disclosing COI however does not solve the issue per the research. Not sure what the solution though. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:56, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Nemo, I'm talking about the illogical assumption in your question: if the editorial board's members don't disclose COI, how can the journal ensure a proper peer review and make sure submissions are reviewed by people without improper interests?

That's the same (il)logic as saying "If people don't post their birthdaies on social media, how can their families know when to bake a birthday cake?" The journal is capable of collecting and acting on this information, even if it's not published on their website. There is such a thing as internal documentation, you know.

I'd be happy to see more information about COIs published (i.e., so that watchdogs can complain if they think an article got a free pass), but I'm not sure how useful it is if we don't know which editor(s) handled each paper. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

With the small difference that I'm not aware of any official parenting guideline recommending parents to get their children's birthdays on social media in order for them to be able to bake cakes. Nemo 17:56, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I have seen multiple papers by authors with COIs in the $US100,000s which have a blank COI statement... So even those with a COI policy may not enforce it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

True that and this phenomenon is on the rise. ∯WBG^converse 14:11, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

And in mainstream media too, just now! https://beta.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-we-shouldnt-take-peer-review-as-the-gold-standard/2019/08/01/fd90749a-b229-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html Nemo 20:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I recently chaired talks at a large meeting where the speakers had to disclose all COIs. They used it as some sort of immunization, then lost all NPOV. It was disgusting. Declaring a COI is very different than being forced to maintain a NPOV, and its what makes us strong. The real question is which journals enforce a NPOV? What guidelines enforce a NPOV?Ian Furst (talk) 22:42, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

One solution could be to redistribute research funding to those without a COI. NIH is still the biggest single research funder in the world.

Evidence for requiring disclosure of COI having a benefit is lacking and the little evidence there is says it might make the issue worse. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

agree w/ Doc James--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

These are very important issues for medical research, and indeed all research. What I don't see are implications for Wikipedia's citation practices. We have to follow what the mainstream does. If the mainstream all consider journal X to be a reliable source, then so do we. We're not in a position to police how journal X handles COI disclosures. Bondegezou (talk) 08:39, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

A lot of student editing coming our way

Just noting that, as seen by Rxbpherrera's contributions, there is a lot of student editing coming our way. This is significant because, as addressed at WP:Student assignments, student editing does not always go smoothly. In fact, it often does not. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:56, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

For reference: Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/UCSF/Foundations II (Summer). Nemo 21:17, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, just looking at all of the articles popping up on my watchlist for student assignments, I can see that I am going to be busy with students. I don't remember seeing this many assignments on my watchlist before. I know that Shalor (Wiki Ed) will help if needed, but these students usually are not familiar with WP:MEDRS or policies such as WP:Due weight. And some will edit war just to get a grade. It's only occasionally that I've encountered well-directed student assignments. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

• Definitely let me know if you come across anything problematic - I've tried to give the students a head's up when it comes to articles that are very controversial or held under sanctions, so hopefully that will help with this process. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 01:57, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
• I continue to have significant concerns about the scalability of educational efforts. Student take a lot of work for the community to support and very rarely turn into long term editors, who than guide the next generation of students. We need funding for more people like User:JenOttawa. User:Shalor (Wiki Ed) one of the students is mentioning someone called "Johny" giving them advice on references. Is this someone with Wiki Ed? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:54, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm also happy to help with medical students if you need more assistance. Just let me know! TylerDurden8823 (talk) 07:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I wonder why we persist in thinking that good-faith, short-term new editors with no professional conflict of interest are "a lot of work" instead of "a golden opportunity". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Probably because "editing skills" is also a thing? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:32, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Because several years of experience shows their work is almost certain to need a lot of checking/adjusting/reverting. Sad but true. Johnbod (talk) 16:44, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, Jo-Jo Eumerus and Johnbod. It's because a lot of us have experience trying to guide the students, only to see our efforts be for naught. Getting a good grasp on our policies and guidelines takes time. And these students seem to not be given sufficient time to understand important rules. Not always, but often. It's often been the case that I have tried to explain matters to students editors, only for them to not understand or fully understand, and to re-add the disputed material or let some fellow student re-add it. And I don't think I'm guiding in the wrong way or explaining things wrong. If there is edit warring and the editors don't seem to be listening, yes, I'm going to be stern on the matter. But I try for a soft approach first. Shalor (Wiki Ed) has seen me trying to guide editors, including in this recent case regarding the Gender expression article; Shalor (Wiki Ed) assisted and tried to guide as well. Our words didn't seem to help much. Often, with student editing, the students are mainly concerned with a good grade rather than improving the article. I'm not saying that all student editors are like this, but a significant number of them are; they appear to be in a hurry and don't communicate well with those of us watching the article. They just say what they are going to do, communicate a little, and hardly reply after that. And then they are gone, never or unlikely to return. Often, cleanup is needed afterward. That is my usual experience with student editors. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

• No, they're not with Wiki Ed. I don't see their name on the course page, so I'm not sure who they are. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 13:04, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

No one could be more thrilled than I to see "golden opportunities" out there. I'd love to help guide our students and point them to some of our experts in one field or another when I didn't have answers. But speaking as a professional who was once a student herself, I know full well that most students want no more than a grade that shows they have so and so many credits to go toward their graduation. In all my years here I've seen only two really good students and one of them was, IMO, derided and had half of her article removed for doing her best (which was pretty good, IMO) on a new article. I commented to her instructor that she should object, but nothing ever came of it. Perhaps the instructors are as poorly prepared for editing as their students... Gandydancer (talk) 17:33, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Perfect User:Gandydancer. Here is a class working in good faith but still requiring some help along the way.[1]

I am still very much supportive of student editing, just we may need teaching assistants to help us manage the volumes if it continues to grow. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:52, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

So we don't want:

• new editors with a COI, and
• new editors without a COI.

Given that this group, above all others, should realize that "live forever" isn't viable, where do we expect our replacements to come from?

I think we need to think about, and talk about, supporting new editors as a highly desirable thing, rather than an imposition on us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Concerns about scalability of student editing does not equal "we don't want new editors without a COI".

What we need is technical tools or teaching assistants to help us support students. Proposed such a tool during the last tech wishlist but it did not get enough support.[2] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I've put a lot of thought into where our new editors are going to come from, and I'm more than happy to talk about it. The key issue, as far as I'm concerned, is that we should put our limited time and effort into supporting, encouraging and developing new editors whose principal interest in editing is to improve the encyclopedia. And that's where student editors all too often fall short. Unfortunately, the impression I receive is that far too many student editors undertake assignments using Wikipedia with their goal being solely to hits the targets set by their lecturer. The fault is not with the students, because that is merely human nature, but I find those setting assignments all too often fail to properly map the outcomes of the assignment onto the educational outcomes that their course calls for. Editing Wikipedia develops numerous transferable skills, notably research, evaluation, precis and online collaboration, and editing can work well when those are well-aligned with the requirements of the course, but it is a poor fit with testing of students' knowledge. Fix those problems first, and you'll find many of us far less cynical about the return on our efforts than we are at present. --RexxS (talk) 01:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, one problem is that for new student editors on assignments, editing WP becomes mentally classified as "work", whereas for most long term editors it is classified as diversion/hobby/fun. Being work, the vast majority do no more of it than is required of them. After several years of organized student courses, do we have any examples of long-term editors that started with a student assignment? Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I've seen a few that keep editing for a short while after the class is over, but not for long (in the accounts used for their classes, at this wiki).

I think there's educational value in students learning that "anyone can edit" really does mean that anyone at all can edit an article. I'm sure that anyone who's thought about it wishes that every patient and every healthcare provider really understood the implications of that. Even if none of them ever edit again, I feel like we've achieved something educational just by teaching them that. But I hear that sticking around doesn't happen often, just like it doesn't happen often that a random hobbyist who creates an account will stick around for long. 95% of registered accounts never make 10 edits. Only 1 in 300 registered editors has made any edit at all during the last month. Only 1 in 800 registered accounts has achieved extended confirmed status, i.e., has ever made a total of 500 edits. The regulars on this page are the Wikipedia equivalents of the economic top 0.1% – like people with US$ 20 million in the bank saying "How can we find more people like us, because people who "only" make more edits than 90 or 95 percent of all the registered users just aren't worth the effort?"

(I hope that no students read this discussion. Do you think that, if you were a student and read this, would you want to get involved with this group?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I hope that students and their instructors do read the above concerns, which are valid. If they can't take the above valid criticism and think everything is just fine as it is, then that is part of the problem. Our group isn't the problem. If students don't want to work with our group because of the above criticism, I don't see that they should be editing Wikipedia. If I was a student editor, I would want to work with the above group...because I would be looking to take their concerns into consideration and alter my approach. My editing would improve because of them. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Have to agree with Flyer here. Also, I'm extended confirmed. I'm very interested in how to convert that into US$ 20 million in the bank, so looking forward to any tips. Mathglot (talk) 06:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I've been in touch with the instructor - Health policy to

discuss your concerns. Students in the course will not be editing articles with discretionary tags, those that are in the process of being brought to Good or Featured Article status, or otherwise overly controversial. We usually support medical courses with no more than 35-40 students, but made an exception to this course due to our longstanding relationship with UCSF and its medical student Wikipedia editing initiatives. The course will overall be working on fewer articles as well, and of course we'll be helping them with their contributions. Thank you. Helaine (Wiki Ed) (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for that, Helaine (Wiki Ed). Per what WP:STEWARDSHIP states, if students do take on a WP:GA or WP:FA article, rather than one in the process of being taken to that level, special care should be taken. But it seems that the students won't be editing articles that are already GA or FA either? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: said,

I wonder why we persist in thinking that good-faith, short-term new editors with no professional conflict of interest are "a lot of work" instead of "a golden opportunity"

The two are not mutually exclusive: they could be both. However, in my experience with new student editors, it isn't both, it's far more work than opportunity for editor retention. And not the same pattern as with newbie, non-student editors; it's more work than the latter.

I've actually given considerable thought to this, backed up with a certain amount of experience dealing with students. Not as much as User:Shalor (Wiki Ed) or the other Wiki Ed folks, but in my experience, retention is extremely low. And for good reason: they are college students, with other things on their plate, and likely will for 4 (6, or 8?) more years.

In addition, there is a fundamental WP:NOTHERE problem that all students fit, to a greater or lesser extent, and not in a malicious, or an intentionally disruptive way, but just as a matter of fact: they are simply not here primarily to improve the encyclopedia, they are here to get a good grade in their course. This shouldn't shock anybody, and it doesn't mean their edits are any worse (or better) than any other brand new editor, but it is just a fact of life to take into consideration. And if a dozen new editors are unleashed on a med-related article, they will be looking to get a grade. There's nothing wrong with that, but even newbie non-student editors (and even experienced editors) have a rough time with WP:MEDRS.

The flip side of that, is that experienced editors need not hold back on a revert, if that is justified by policy, and if you would have reverted a more experienced editor. Treat them no differently than anybody else. Be kind to them, write longer, more detailed edit summary than you normally would, add "good-faith edit" in your summary, comment on their User talk page if more explanation is needed, but treat their edits as you would treat any edits; neither more harshly, nor more solicitously, as far as your reaction to the content changes. Mathglot (talk) 06:22, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

It's basically a WP:COI (the need to get the grade that is). Student editing is just one of the ways that editors of good will are exploited by those in the community who have other objectives than creating great content. So far as I am concerned such student editors are not welcome and the practice should be stopped. Perhaps we could get community consensus to prohibit it (at least for medical articles - for example it could be made clear that the COI of grade-focussed student prohibits them from editing articles directly, and that they must consensus via Talk pages)? Who decided student editing was a good idea in the first place? Was it a community initiative? Alexbrn (talk) 06:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Picking up on the retention point above, there's some daylight between "where are new editors going to come from?" and "where is new content going to come from?", and if student editors contributed one solid article, or paragraph in an existing one, or even just a few sources, and then went back to their regular lives, that would be great. A common challenge with student editing is that, well... they're students. They're beginners. Not just at editing - everybody started there once - but they're also usually beginners in the subjects they're writing about, and they're trying to learn both of those things at the same time on a short deadline. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a student and making mistakes while learning the material, but these programs tend to result in new-student mistakes ending up in articles, often on topics that are relatively technical or obscure and where the mistake might not be caught quickly. I'm thinking of the time I found a student article on a bacterial species that misidentified it as a yeast, for example - putting all single-celled organisms into one mental bin is a really common student error, and no biggie if someone gets it wrong on a quiz, but it's bad to spread that error to every passing Googler.

I do wish people would fuss less at students - and at any new editors - about formatting and other picky details. I used to see people reacting to student editing by giving them warnings about reference formatting - and reference formatting is just about the least transferable skill you can learn on Wikipedia. But I think the reality is that student editing requires more maintenance and more volunteer time investment than "regular" newbies do, because students tend to come in groups, are working under time pressure, are often getting their assignments from someone who is also not experienced on Wikipedia, and tend to choose topics that they are less comfortable writing about. (Isn't it a truism that most non-student newbies write about what they know - to the point where that too is a problem, because they write about things they have a COI about? Students are pretty explicitly writing about what they don't know, and therefore need to take a class to learn.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:14, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree that we need to spend less time fussing about formatting. I suspect that being overly focused on trivial stylistic points is what doomed Doc James' wishlist proposal. Putting the ref tags before terminal punctuation is something that AWB users can (and do) fix in seconds, and we need people to spend more time thinking about the content.

Mathglot, in terms of turning your status into millions, I think we can conclusively rule out undisclosed paid editing. I hear that the going rate is about $20–$30 per poorly written stub.

I think, however, that we shouldn't be so quick to assume that students have no time or inherent interest in Wikipedia. For one thing, this WikiProject was founded by students, so obviously it's possible. College students are a core demographic in editor surveys. There have been Wikipedia clubs at several universities over the years (e.g., [3][4][5]). As for whether WPMED specifically will find a "keeper" in these classes, it's my impression that we haven't actually had enough students to have a fair chance at it yet. Only one in 800 accounts reaches 500 edits in the first place. I don't think we've yet had 800 students attempting to edit medicine-related articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:00, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

But there's a world of difference between students who decide to edit and students who are required to edit for grades. According to Motivation crowding theory, giving someone an extrinsic reward (grades) for an otherwise altruistic activity (editing) tends to "crowd out" the intrinsic rewards of altruism. When the extrinsic reward is withdrawn, the altruistic activity tends to stop. This predicts that students who are required to edit for grades will rarely edit after they are graded, consistent with what we see.

The only caveat I can see is that maybe implanting the idea that a person can edit Wikipedia could lead to them taking up editing in the future, when grades are no longer relevant and they can internalise editing as a form of volunteering. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:02, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

A useful variant of what I said above, with altruism replacing fun - but yes. I don't fuss at all, on non-medical student articles, about formatting. But I do fuss about a complete lack of links, very poor grammar and incoherent prose, clearly misunderstanding the sources, and generally writing a pile of crap. By no means all are like this, but far too many are. This was yesterday's little pile of poop on my watchlist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs) 00:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Some background on motivations for editing medical articles is in a journal paper by Hydra Rain and myself here. Many active editors of medical articles are students and are motivated by an overlap with their education (although that's not about specific student projects). A question I would ask is whether class projects help convert people into regular Wikipedia editors. Bondegezou (talk) 10:39, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

class projects should have some effect on potential editors...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 09:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Editing by a student who has taken the trouble to learn something about the topic must be preferable to random vandalism by bored college boys. However, I wonder whether being assigned to write about something should in itself be a declarable conflict of interest. This seems to a peculiarly American problem, since their students seem to get credit for "participation" or time "on air" in the class and lazy instructors have moved this into the online world, where they can grade their students at leisure. NRPanikker (talk) 13:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

• Note: As mentioned at the Menarche talk page, I've appreciated Mquindoy adding systematic review material. Students do, of course, sometimes listen or look to see what are appropriate sources for a topic. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion. Is there a place where the community can list articles that we would like student editors to work on? For instance, the Breastfeeding article seems to be a perennial student assignment topic and it's uh, questionable whether it's improved as a result, but I'd be more keen on having a student take a crack at creating Nipple pain in breastfeeding or Breastfeeding and mental health. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:05, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea. In the meantime, the lower an article is graded in the assessment scale, the easier it should be for students to improve. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 00:04, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I too like your idea @Clayoquot:. I find that start or stub-class articles are more difficult for students to improve (starting from scratch versus improving and critiquing), although it gives them a chance to learn WP:MEDMOS right away. WP:MED keeps track of the educational initiatives (when we notice them) on this project page. It looks like the cleanup list is no longer active. Would the cleanup list help for choosing articles? JenOttawa (talk) 00:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Updating statistics would be really useful. If a student can find "According to the WHO, there were so-and-so many people living with Whatever in 2004" and replace that with more recent (but equally high-quality) stats, that would be a real service. Part of Leukemia#Epidemiology gives numbers from a paper that's now 18 years old.

Most rare diseases (and many common ones) need someone to write a ==Prognosis== section. Actually, most disease-related articles need this. That section exists only in about a third of relevant articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, more specific tasks could be useful. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:25, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, such small contributions guided by some tool are an excellent entry point for classes where students have had less than 4 hours or so of training, in my experience. Citation Hunt has a topic search so it might be suitable. Nemo 08:41, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

A new master page showing which articles students will be editing would be helpful. A bot could be programmed to update a list. QuackGuru (talk) 11:05, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ian (Wiki Ed): is collaborating by adding the Wiki Edu medical editing initiatives to this page. If anyone else notices a project we can add the dashboard and any course pages to these lists. I like User:QuackGuru's idea of pulling all the WP articles from dashboards (or the active talk page templates) with a bot and make a project page with WP articles in progress that WPMED volunteers can work from. User:Doc James do you have any ideas here? I think it would also be helpful to keep the edu talk pages templates up to date. Many have inactive educational initiatives listed on them that are not helpful/confusing for editors. I feel that these should be archived once the project is complete, like any other talk page information. See example at the top of Talk:Posttraumatic stress disorder. JenOttawa (talk) 12:49, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Epinephrine

For the medication it is called "Epinephrine (medication)". For the hormone it is called just "Adrenaline". Why not call it "Epinephrine (hormone)" for the hormone? QuackGuru (talk) 04:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Because it's called "adrenaline" when it's a hormone. WP:COMMONNAME applies. If anything, you'd want to change "Epinephrine (medication)" to "Adrenaline (medication)". Bondegezou (talk) 08:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

The use of "adrenaline" vs "epinephrine" varies by geographical region and the form of English spoken there, not endogenous vs exogenous origin. The names should be kept identical if an "X (medication)" remains split off from the parent article. Moreover, the pagename for both pages should be kept consistent with the pagename of norepinephrine/noradrenaline. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 09:25, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Do you prefer changing it to "Epinephrine" instead of "Adrenaline"? QuackGuru (talk) 13:19, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Would strongly suggest using “Epinephrine” as the page name since it’s the more common term globally. “Adrenaline” is more widely used by laypersons (i.e., people without a medical background) in the United States (which is where I’m from), but I still think epinephrine is the better pagename for a number of reasons. That said, the more important issue to me is keeping all 4 pagenames (norepinephrine, norepinephrine (medication), epinephrine, epinephrine (medication)) consistent. They should all use either (nor-)epinephrine or (nor-)adrenaline as the pagename. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 18:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I recommend a page move to "Epinephrine (hormone)" or simply "Epinephrine". A requested page move can be started. QuackGuru (talk) 13:15, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

From what I understand Epinephrine is the INN for the medication and it is the more common name in at least my part of the world. I have no possition on the hormone article naming. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:24, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

OK. I retract my earlier comments. 423000 Google Scholar hits for "adrenaline" versus 730000 for "epinephrine". Bondegezou (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I requested a page move. QuackGuru (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

This is unresolved. One person objected to the page move at Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Technical_requests. QuackGuru (talk) 19:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested page move

See Talk:Adrenaline#Requested_move_10_August_2019. QuackGuru (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

has been closed--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:34, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Yep. QuackGuru (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge

See Talk:Adrenaline#Merger_proposal. Someone could request a close. QuackGuru (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Why are you asking for another volunteer to spend time writing down the outcome of that discussion? Are you honestly unable to figure out what the answer is by reading it yourself? Do you have any reason to believe that any competent Wikipedian is genuinely unable to figure it out? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:01, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Help with a student question?

Hi! I wanted to see if I could get someone to help me with a student question on their talk page. One of the students is asking about what looks to be one of the greyer areas of MEDRS. I'm more familiar with the basics at the moment, so I would absolutely love if someone could help out with this. (So I can also learn in the process as well!) I'd rather ask here, where people are more savvy with the guidelines, than to try to answer myself and give them a wrong answer.

The student's page is User talk:Alexuang#Studies as sources. Thanks! Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

WAID took care of it[6]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:56, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Seeking feedback for Chronic pulmonary aspergillosis

Hello my old friends... it's been a long time since I was last here! I feel incredibly rusty on editing, but I've spent the last couple of hours going over Chronic pulmonary aspergillosis which was in a pretty dire state.

I still need to go over the Diagnosis and Treatment sections, but I welcome any feedback or input for the first half of the article. If I've done something wrong please do feel free to correct me... as I say, rusty! Thanks :) --—Cyclonenim | Chat  18:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back, Cyclonenim! It's good to see your name here again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:18, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Why, thank you! Good to see you're still around too! :) --—Cyclonenim | Chat  12:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Woohoo, welcome Cyclonenim. If I can recommend anything, have a look at the VisualEditor and the citation tool that comes with it. Groovy stuff. JFW | T@lk 08:27, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Yep looks handy! Saves a lot of time for sure. Thanks Jfd :) --—Cyclonenim | Chat  12:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

It takes PMIDs, (most) DOIs, ISBNs (via WorldCat) and more. And an informal estimate indicated that about 98% of users are putting in URLs, including URLs to PubMed, URLs to doi.org, URLS to Google Books, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Curlie

I have added Curlie as a possibility to {{Medical_resources}}

Not sure if we should get a bot to try to move all instances of ELs to Curlie on pages with this template to within this template? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:18, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

seems like a good idea...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe? It would result in fewer people clicking on the link. That navbox has MEGO problems. If you don't know that you should be looking for something there, you are unlikely to click on all those unexplained and esoteric codes to find out.

Separately, since the quality of DMOZ was uneven, and its successor is not that different, those links might benefit from a manual review as well, to remove the low-quality and outdated pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

It is volunteer generated content, so yes variable. But one can join them and make it better. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it's too early to have Curlie in External links for medical content. The quality of search results is variable, and mostly poor. I haven't seen an example yet where it provides new or up-to-date results, and may mislead, such as this example for a Neurology search which produced a rash of altmed. Adding Curlie also violates WP:ELNO: 1,2,8,9,12, inter alia. --Zefr (talk) 23:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Not so much about "adding" but "merging" existing links into medical resource template. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

It's worth noting that there are plans to link more of {{medical resources}}'s parameters to the relevant Wikidata properties when they exist (any local knowledge will override information from WD). I mention this because Curlie has a WD property available. No objections have been raised on the template's talk page, yet. So far we've got no further than syncing the sandbox to the template, but I am hoping to see if I can help with the endeavour weekend. Little pob (talk) 08:25, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Community members interested in creating drawings

• Have started a list here Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Resources/Useful_resources#Community_members_interested_in_creating_images

Please add yourself if you are interested in creating drawings. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:25, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

We also have a new Wikiproject for those interested in programming Wikipedia:WikiProject Hacker. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:29, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Why was this created? If you want to learn programming, then you should probably start at mw:How to become a MediaWiki hacker. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:31, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

We have a volunteer programmer who is wanting to create a space were volunteer programmers can discuss things. I see no issue with it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:08, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: The metawiki page is really aimed at PHP/jQuery programmers who wish to contribute to developing the MediaWiki software and not much else. A broader project that could foster programming skills in other areas useful to Wikimedia projects (such as bot development, using the API, Python, Lua, etc.) would be a most welcome addition as far as I'm concerned. --RexxS (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

"mw:" is www.MediaWiki.org, not Meta (which is "m:" on the interwiki map). mw:How to contribute is the central page (designers, documentation writers, QA, etc.), but I linked to the more specific one because Doc James' original note was specifically directed to "those interested in programming".

(I keep hoping that one of the mw:Hackathons will offer a training program for Lua. We have a distinct shortage of Lua folks in the movement.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree completely that we really need more Lua programmers. By an odd coincidence, I've just come back from Wikimania where I ran an "introduction to Lua" session for the hackathon there. I'm also developing materials to support online learning of Lua, although they will never be a replacement for interactive training. Let me know if you have any thoughts on other avenues to pursue. --RexxS (talk) 17:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder whether Lua programmers would be SSethi (WMF)'s territory. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Any chance of linking some 'how to' videos? Or links to pages for self-education? Ian Furst (talk) 17:22, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

The most complete online stuff I have is the learning exercises I created for Google Code-In. The index is at User:RexxS/GCI. I'll have a look to see if I can find any how-to videos that other folks may have created. --RexxS (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I previously requested a drawing of Hon Lik and Herbert A. Gilbert. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 67#Image request. QuackGuru (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Should GoodRx links be included in Template:Infobox drug?

There's currently a discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_drug#GoodRx about adding links to GoodRx to the Infobox drug and on Wikidata about importing the relevant data. Currently, few people contributed to the discussion on the template and given the potential controversial nature of linking to a for-profit company in this way, even if it's helpful to readers, I believe that more people should voice their opinions so that we have afterwards a firm consensus about whether enwiki wants those links in the infoboxes. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 13:21, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

• give opinion(gave mine)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:33, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Additional Eyes

May be useful here: [7] TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Also relevant is this: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#CMTBard TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Hepatitis E....

HEV

....has recently passed GA and I think is within striking distance of FA-hood. If any folks are keen, some pre FAC feedback would be gratefully digested.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:06, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Psychosocial Genomics?

I stumbled upon Psychosocial Genomics today. The article itself is a mess, but what I'm really struggling with is trying to figure out if the topic itself is real, or if it's just some weird WP:FRINGE thing. I found a few papers (this and this, for example), but I'm not familiar with those journals so I'm finding it hard to evaluate. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

PubMed indexed review[8](which you indicated above) does not seem fringe...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:37, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Transplantation articles retraction

I was just at a talk by Wendy Rogers presenting a systematic review published in BMJ Open analysing publications that contain data from organ transplants harvested under coercion from executed prisoners.

This has lead to 15 retractions so far.

However, supplementary file 4 of the review contains a list of articles published from such data, the majority of which have not issued retractions. Would anyone be able to assist in checking if any are cited in Wikipedia? Additionally I'm getting a group together to contact the remaining journals that have not retracted and ensure that they are aware of the publication at issue as well as the BMJ Open review. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 02:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

References

I think we need a list of these retracted papers first. This one does not seem to be used anywhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Wendy had a slide listing them at the talk so I've emailed her to ask if she'll send it through (since I can't seem to find a list via retractionwatch). T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 11:25, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• The RetractionWatch article about this gives explicit instructions for finding the retractions in their database (probably done this way since the list will change): 'For a complete list of retractions for this reason — including another from Liver Transplantation from 2017 — search our database for “+Informed/Patient Consent – None/Withdrawn” as “Reason(s) for Retraction” and “(HSC) Medicine – Transplantation” as “Subject(s).”' - currently resulting in these 16:

1. paper PMID 24260427 / retraction PMID 31369646 / Wang 2013
2. paper PMID 24788560 / retraction PMID 31365576 / Yu 2014
3. paper PMID 21206745 / retraction PMID 31365574 / Wu 2010
4. paper PMID 24798310 / retraction PMID 31348446 / Zhang 2014
5. paper PMID 20010326 / retraction PMID 31348445 / Xue 2010
6. paper PMID 18360269 / retraction PMID 31348444 / Liang 2008
7. paper PMID 18580463 / retraction PMID 31348443 / Zhang 2008
8. paper PMID 19461488 / retraction PMID 31348442 / Xu 2009
9. paper PMID 20703179 / retraction PMID 31348441 / Xie 2010
10. paper PMID 20179665 / retraction PMID 31348440 / Pan 2010
11. paper PMID 22291934 / retraction PMID 31344146 / Ling 2012
12. paper PMID 21966488 / retraction PMID 31335902 / Wang 2011
13. paper PMID 24475047 / retraction PMID 31335908 / Yu 2014
14. paper PMID 22848619 / retraction PMID 31335876 / Wu 2012
15. paper PMID 24475255 / retraction PMID 31335877 / Hu 2014
16. paper PMID 27589369 / retraction PMID 28453919 / Yu 2016

...but that list will grow... — soupvector (talk) 21:21, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

This sounds like a mess. You could keep a whole group of PhD students busy with questions like "If I've validly consented to being an organ donor my whole life, then why should my consent be revoked just because of the manner of my involuntary death?" or "If we can safely assume that anyone dying in Country #1 has consented to being an organ donor unless proven otherwise, then why would we have to assume that every single Chinese prisoner is unable to provide valid consent?" or "Why does anyone think that a dead person has any vested interest in the disposition of their body, anyway?" And if the brief description of the publication ban is correct, then they've just banned the publication of research about whether those consent-impaired organs perform worse, which is something that any transplant recipient might justly want to know more about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:41, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

My sense is (for the WPMED context we address here) that we would not consider eligible for MEDRS any article that's been retracted. I would agree that somewhere the ethics of all this should be debated - but here? — soupvector (talk) 03:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the list above! I just got a copy of the slide and the only additional ones not on that list are:

1. PMID 23166917 Jiang 2012
2. PMID 26345804 Li 2015
3. PMID 19545692 Yuang 2009 (though the amost identical 19752617 has not been retracted)

T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 10:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

User:Headbomb, I think we're ready for you, but it sounds like there will be updates, possibly for months to come. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Autistic catatonia

• Autistic catatonia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article on Autistic catatonia appears under-sourced and under-linked. Anyone here a SME on this please? Guy (Help!) 20:20, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Contraceptive vaginal ring

There are 2 types of Contraceptive vaginal ring.The article infobox relates to the combined hormonal ring. The other type is progesterone only replaced 3 monthly. Any help here or suggestions please. Whispyhistory (talk) 09:39, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

The NHS has a nice, clear, RS page here on the Nuva-ring. Bondegezou (talk) 10:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Good start ...thanks. What should go in infobox? Whispyhistory (talk) 16:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Reference to treating ear pain via acupuncture

Ear_pain#Society_and_culture says

Acupuncture of the ear is used to fix an unbalance in the body.

Should this be rephrased?

- 2804:14D:5C59:8300:0:0:0:1000 (talk) 06:15, 26 August 2019 (UTC)