Talk:Franz Halder

Copyright violation

I've reverted the edit by 4.242.99.53 since it looks like the text was pasted in from somewhere, though a Google search doesn't show the text online anywhere. If there is evidence this was not a copyright violation, it could be replaced (in a more wikified format). Angela. 19:19, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

This wasn't a copyvio. See [1]. Angela. 04:11, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

East Prussia

The statement that the Germans feared interwar Poland would attack East Prussia "to regain this former Polish territory" is egregiously misleading. East Prussia never was a "Polish territory" in the modern understanding of the terminology. Although part of it - a district known to the Germans as Ermeland and the Poles as Warmia - was controlled politically by Poland for two centuries, Ermeland/Warmia was inhabited predominantly by Germans for six centuries, until the Germans were expelled after World War II and East Prussia was split between Poland and the Soviet Union.

The province of East Prussia corresponded roughly to the area inhabited prior to the 13th century by the old Prussians, a "pagan" Baltic people whose language was related to Lithuanian, and who periodically conducted warlike raids into Christian Poland. In 1226, Duke Conrad of Mazovia, the part of Poland immediately south of East Prussia, asked the Papacy to sanction a mission by the Knights of the Teutonic Order to remove the Prussian tribes as a threat.

The Order conquered the Prussians over a period of about 80 years, slaughtering many and forcibly converting the remainder, who eventually became assimilated with German settlers imported by the Order. The northern two-thirds of East Prussia eventually became wholly Germanized, while the southern part, known as Masuria, became inhabited by a mixture of Germans and Poles. This ethnography remained in place until 1945.

With the decline of the Teutonic Order in the 15th Century, followed by its secularization in 1526, East Prussia became politically divided between Poland, which annexed the still-Catholic Ermeland (Warmia), and the now-Protestant duchy of East Prussia, which was enfeoffed to the Polish Crown. After the First Partition of Poland in 1772, however, all of East Prussia became part of Brandenburg-Prussia and thus after 1871 part of Germany. By the time period of the present article on Halder, East Prussia had been a Prusso-German province for 150 years, and had never been wholly a Polish province or inhabited predominantly by Poles.

As a footnote, it may be mentioned that the inhabitants of southern East Prussia, i.e. Masuria, voted 97.8 percent in favor of remaining part of Germany in a League of Nations plebescite in 1920.

PS: What's up with the "NOT Franz Halder" cutline?

Sca 16:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

agreed, this is clearly POV; I have removed that phrase

Army vs. Armed Forces

It seems there is a confusion here. Was Halder Chief of the General Staff of the Army or of the Armed Forces (comprising Army, Navy and Air Foce)? This distinction is important as it concerns three successive men: Ludwig Beck (1935-1938), Franz Ritter von Halder (1938-1942), and Kurt Zeitzler (1942-1945).

All three Army only. Before the formation of OKW - Oberkommando der Wermacht - all three services had their own chiefs of staff. On formation of OKW Keitel was appointed Chef OKW and de facto head of staff, with Hitler as supreme commander and Jodl as Chief of Operations--Anthony.bradbury 20:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

picture

I removed the picture, since both the caption and the picture page itself say it is Jacob, and not Halder. Perhaps someone can add one? bikeable (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly, the last time I looked at the Halder photo was about six months before it was removed. As that photo sure looked like a very similar one that F. Halder sent to me in 1968, I recommend that the photo be re-installed. I don't have any idea as to why it would have been captioned "Jacob". -- Bill Garrison

I added a new picture, the previous picture was indeed of General Alfred Jacob.Ingsoc 19:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

_{Subscript text}

Medal of Freedom

I can't find any reference to Halder getting the medal of freedom other than on Wikipedia. Since it is not referenced, I am removing it. Update: Hadler did not receive the Medal of Freedom. He was awarded the Meritorious Civilian Service Award which is a civil-service award for being a good worker. From the army's website: "The Meritorious Civilian Service Award is the second highest Department of the Army honorary award, and may be granted by the Secretary of the Army or a major commander. Nominees for this award must have established a pattern of excellence, normally demonstrated by the receipt of lower level awards." - http://cpol.army.mil/library/permiss/5434.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.164.200 (talk • contribs)

Good catch. [This Medal of Freedom page ] does not list Halder. It always struck me as somewhat, ah, incongruous. bikeable (talk) 04:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a source for his getting the Meritorious Civilian Service Award - http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/info/lec05.shtml

Barbarossa

Halder changed the plan for the invasion of the Soviet Union to focus on taking Moscow, particularly while Hitler was ill in April 1941. (86.183.112.32 (talk) 05:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC))

vs. Hitler

I was surprised at the explanation of this edit: [2] The first reference seems from a quite well established publisher. The second maybe less, but apparently a second hand quote that could be verified. @K.e.coffman: could you expand on your reasons for reverting? --John (User:Jwy/talk) 15:34, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The passage is self-contradictory, while the sources are hobbyist in nature and not reliable for these claims. The para opens with "...he felt unable to take direct action against the Führer", but then states "he considered shooting Hitler himself". So which one was it? We also get the trope of "like all officers he had taken a personal loyalty oath to Hitler". The officers made and broke all sorts of oaths. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:42, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Statement (1941)

He, Halder, engaged in a long-running and divisive dispute with Hitler over strategy that damaged the leadership of the army. - So, Halder by his acting "damaged" the leadership of the army, is that what this line wants to suggest ? Otherwise, if Halder had said to himself Führer, befiehl, ich folge dir (und sage gar nichts) (Fuhrer, give your orders and I won't tell anything against) the "leadership of the army" would have remained "intact" ? - Sounds somewhat awkward, that statemant. If one thinks a bit about it. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 08:28, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Hitler gave an order, if Halder didn't like it he changed the order. There were arguments between Hitler and the leadership. The orders given were bad because of the continual disagreements. Hitler got more aggrieved up until the point he took control himself and sidelined the command. It could probably be reworded. Szzuk (talk) 08:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I deleted it. The matter is covered in the article body clearly so no need for that. Szzuk (talk) 08:50, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Franz Halder/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CPA-5 (talk · contribs) 18:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Do this one tomorrow, also can you tell me which English you use here? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

British English, I believe. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:46, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

• It looks like there are some little template issues in the article like this sentence Barbarossa Decree and the Commissar Order. He was sent[by whom?] or this one politicians and eventually for millions[quantify] of Americans.[citation needed]. I will continue if they are fixed. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:25, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the above issues. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:41, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'll continue later I just finished the lead and the infobox. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Lead

• the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union Link the USSR.
• command of his father and served in World War I (1914-1918) --> "command of his father and served in World War I (1914–1918)".
• included the imprisonment or execution of Poles Link Poles.
• planning for the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union which began Unlink the USSR.
• during the Battle for Moscow in the winter of 1941-1942 --> "during the Battle for Moscow in the winter of 1941–1942".
• to light that he had been involved in an earlier plot Is there a link to that plot?
• US v. U.S.. Please standardise the usage of the US.
• Myth of the clean Wehrmacht is overlinked.
• The Soviet Union is overlinked.
• succeeded in his aim of exonerating the German army --> "succeeded in his aim of exonerating the German Army".

Body

• Halder was born in Würzburg, the son of an officer. In 1902 Do we know his father's name?
• he was appointed as chief of staff of a military district Which military district?
• After being promoted to generalmajor in October 1934 --> "After being promoted to generalmajor (general-major) in October 1934".
• Halder was promoted to generalleutnant --> "Halder was promoted to generalleutnant (lieutenant-general)".
• on the General Staff of the Army, in Berlin Unlink Berlin because of common term.
• the Army High Command on 1 September 1938. He succeeded General Ludwig Beck Remove 1938.
• development of the invasion plans of France Unlink France because of common term.
• Halder was promoted to generaloberst and began --> "Halder was promoted to generaloberst(colonel-general) and began".
• economy or the administration led by Stalin --> "economy or the administration led by Joseph Stalin".
• During that summer Hitler and the Army Staff led by Halder Try to avoid to use seasons. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

More to come

• Remove all the seasons.
• withdrawal, when it came, was dictated by the Soviet army Soviet Army.
• worst events in the history of the German army Same as above but now with the German one.
• World War I is overlinked.
• that included former French premier Leon Blum --> "that included former French Premier Leon Blum"
• In the last days of April 1945, together with other Remove 1945.
• Nazi-Soviet war in which the German army fought a "noble war" German Army.
• section of the research program which became known American program.
• were recorded by former field marshal Georg von Küchler Field Marchel.
• distance himself and the German army from Hitler German Army.
• absolving himself and the German army from war crimes Same as above.
• individuals like Halder, Hermann Göring and Heinz Guderian First remove Heinz and second unlink Heinz Guderian because it is overlinked. I'll do the source and image reviews tomorrow. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
• His aim was to exonerate German army personnel German Army and replace "his aim was" to "He aimed".
• No edit war.

Infobox

• Years: "1902–42" --> "1902–1942".
• Rank: "Generaloberst" --> "Generaloberst (Colonel-General)".

Sources

• Ref 1, I do not think we should add the whole ref over there I believe if a page number is good enough.
• In Megarge's source, "Polish troops and armed civiians were certain to" typo?

I've addressed the above points. In re: "Do we know his father's name?", "Which military district?" and which conspiracies, the source does not specify. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• No OR.
• "Lebendiges Museum Online" add a languages=German in the source.
• Citino, Robert --> Citino, Robert M.
• Some ISBNs have more than one hyphen others have only one hyphen maybe standardise them all.
• Add languages=German in Hartmann's source and translate the title.
• Megargee's book hasn't a location?
• Try not to overlink the publishers and writters like both Cambridge and Kansas universities and Stahel, David.

Images

• Looks good to me.

• I just finished the review, I'll set it on hold. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:40, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the remaining points. I'm not sure about "Remove all the seasons" -- that's what the sources say. The events are taking place in Europe; I don't think anyone would get confused. Hartmann's book is not available in English and I don't feel comfortable offering my translation. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

• That's why I reckoned you to try to avoid it I think I can pass it. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:05, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Halder "only German to be decorated both by Hitler and US president"

This article on Franz Halder states he was "the only German ever to be decorated both by Hitler and by an American president," (receiving the US Meritorious Civilian Service Award from Major General Edgar C. Doleman). Is this correct? For example Doctor Wernher von Braun received both the Nazi German War Merit Cross and the NASA Distinguished Service Medal. While it could be argued that Braun was a US citizen by the time he received his US decoration, the statement concerning Halder is still misleading.
Any views?
Hsq7278 10:06, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Statement misleading for sure, should be easy to find someone (lower level Wehrmacht, later Nato / Bundeswehr) who was decorated by Hitler and a President as well --2003:E4:719:8D00:20C3:AAB1:FBF7:B74C (talk) 12:09, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Hitler may not have personally conferred those awards, as he did with Halder.50.111.3.59 (talk) 20:13, 20 October 2019 (UTC)