Talk:Battle of Legnica

Older discussion

I once read in Brittannica that the Mongols under Batu Khan stopped their advance after the Battle of Liegnitz (which is preferred to Leignitz, I believe) in part, at least, because they failed to reduce Neustadt, their next intended conquest.

Also see

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Golden_Horde

but as I am not a competent judge of the authority of this article I enter a comment only.

pdn

All other sources, videos, world history books, and so on that I've read tell me that they retreated because the Khagan died. If Neustadt is significant, they should've at least mentioned it, but this is the first time that I've seen "Neustadt." --69.235.28.156 05:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The Mongols In Europe

In the early days the Mongols were a mix of Christians, Muslims and Buddhists, all of them obedient to the Great Khan and ready to plunder the rich Islamic lands. There is no obvious reason why the Southern Sung should not have held out. Nor why the Mongols might not have conquered as far as Egypt and broken the back of the Islamic world.

This was the plan of the third Great Khan, Guyuk or Kuyuk, who favoured Nestorianism, a form of Christianity considered a heresy by Western Christians. It was continued by the succeeding Great Khan Mongke/ Mangku, who favoured Buddhism. He was also the son of a Nestorian-Christian mother, as were his younger brothers Khubilai and Hulegu. Together they tried to work with Latin-Christian Europe against the Islamic world. Envoys were sent:

"They carried a letter in which the Mongol commander, who claimed that he had been charged by his khan to protect all Christians in western Asia and rebuild their churches, declared that he prayed to God for the success of the French crusade. This assurance of Mongol good will was surprising enough, but the letter also asked the French king to listen to the words which the ambassadors had been told to say to him, and when they had pleased him further by announcing that the Mongol khan had been baptized as a Christian and that Eljigidei had followed his example, the Nestorians delivered the message which their commander had not dared to put in writing. Eljigidei intended to march against Baghdad at the end of the winter, and if the King of France were to coincide his landing in Egypt with that attack, the two most powerful rulers in Islam would be unable to come to each other's assistance and the victorious armies of France and the Mongol Empire would advance on two fronts to liberate the Holy Land…. The story of Kuyuk's baptism was almost certainly true since it is recorded by the Moslem historian Juvaini, but it is more likely to have been motivated by self-interest than by profound conviction, and the alliance of the French crusaders with the newly-Christian khan was far more to the advantage of the Mongol Empire than Christendom. Neither Kuyuk nor Eljigidei believed that King Louis was capable of defeating the Sultan of Egypt, but at least he could keep him busy while their armies attacked Baghdad. (The Devils’s Horsemen, page 155)

The Mongols offered a remarkable chance to settle the centuries-old war between Muslims and Christians. But Catholic Europe was at least as interested in taking advantage of the misfortunes of Russia’s Orthodox Christians.

This was the context of the formidable Alexander Nevsky, ancestor of the later Tsars and best known in Britain from the Eisenstein film which celebrated his historic victory over the Teutonic Knights. This order of warrior-monks had been founded to root out residual European paganism, but continued as an aggression against both Orthodox Christians and Catholic Poles, before its final defeat at Tannenberg/Grunwald two centuries later by an alliance of Poles, Russians, Tartars and the last survivors of Europe’s Baltic pagans.

"The other important aspect of the great flowering of European knighthood was the number of military-religious orders, such as the Knights Templars and Hospitallers and the Teutonic Knights. Their lives were bound by religious ritual, celibacy, vows of poverty, devotion to the Church and the restoration of the Holy Land to Christianity. In short, they were monks who were also professional soldiers. So the ideals of European knighthood were aesthetically quite sophisticated. But as an army they employed terribly crude methods.

"The European horseman was far less mobile than his Mongol counterpart. He could not manage delicate or intricate manoeuvres; the day was usually decided on the basis of a rather basic head-on clash. Once the charge had taken place, most knights dismounted (or were brought down) and combat continued with blade and shield in ferocious hand-to-hand combat… The knights themselves were not trained officers, and their individual combat skills were of no use when leading men into battle. The size of their retinue was an indication of their wealth, not their ability, and there was no clear chain of command down from the commander-in-chief…

"By contrast the Mongols were a tightly disciplined fighting machine, in which each soldier knew his place and his responsibilities. He did not fight as an individual, but as part of a massive formation that was led in and out of well-drilled manoeuvres. When the Mongol army advanced they approached as a series of long single ranks, made up of a number of units. The first two consisted of heavy cavalry, followed by three ranks of light cavalry. Out on either flank and up front were further, smaller detachments of light cavalry… The Mongols also preferred to manoeuvre the enemy's ranks to exactly where they wanted them... The sight of the Mongols in flight was a temptation that most enemy commanders could not resist.. By the time the enemy had reached the killing ground, their ranks were already spread out and made easy targets. (Storm From the East: From Genghis Khan to Khubilai Khan. Page 92 93)

Military orders like the Templars and Teutonic Knights imposed more order than Europe was used to. But only in the 16th and 17th centuries and in imitation of Roman models did European troops start matching the orderliness and discipline of the historic Mongols.

Unlike the other princes, Alexander's allegiance to the Mongols was genuine: he was too devoutly orthodox to abandon his faith for the sake of an army, and whereas Galicia and Volynia, to whom Vladimir and Suzdal had been allied by the marriage of Grand Duke Andrew to the daughter of Prince Daniel, could expect willing assistance from the threatened Catholic kingdoms of Poland and Hungary, the only neighbours of Novgorod were the Teutonic Knights and the Swedes, against whose aggressive ambitions Mongol mastery was a powerful defence… Alexander Nevsky was, therefore, the first to go to Sarai and offer his allegiance to Batu's Christian son Sartak, who had been given responsibility for the government of Russia. (The Devils’s Horsemen, page 160-161)

As well as protecting Russian Orthodoxy, the Mongols almost did complete the Crusader’s mission of evicting Islam from the lands where their religion had begun:

"From the Mongol perspective, a campaign into Persia and Syria was the logical pursuit of their philosophy of world domination. But the essential point behind Mongke's objectives was that further expansion in the west was going to happen in the Middle East, not in Europe. For centuries the Mongols had been familiar with the great influence that Muslim merchants from Persia and the Gulf area enjoyed throughout Asia. More significant was the reputation of Persian scientists, astronomers, astrologers, mathematicians and technologists, who were without equal anywhere in the world. Apart from the sciences, there were also the arts: painting, carpet making, music and poetry. The Islamic Middle East was by any standards a vastly sophisticated, wealthy and advanced civilization, and the Mongols could hardly allow it to flourish outside of their sphere. Mongke's objectives were obvious: by invading both the Sung empire in southern China and Persia, he was attempting to place the two great civilizations of the era under Mongol control. It stands as one of the most grandiose plans for world domination ever conceived.

"One obvious conclusion that can be drawn from Mongke's decision was that the Mongols appeared to have lost interest in Europe. Indeed, there is no evidence that after Batu's withdrawal from eastern Europe the Mongols ever saw Europe as a prize worthy of the effort it would have taken to conquer it. Although the pronouncements of the Great Khans continued to reiterate the conviction that it was the Mongols' God-given right to rule the world, and that all kings were obliged to offer tribute to the Great Khan, the reality was that in global terms Europe really did not matter that much. (Storm From The East, page 170)

Europe’s best feature from the Mongol point for view was as a source of allies in an assault against Islamic powers. Crusader power was still considerable, and the brothers Mongke, Hulegu and Kubilai had a Nestorian Christian mother who may have influenced their attitudes more than their grandfather Chinghis Khan.

See also the Battle of Ain Jalut, Goliath Spring.

Festival reference

I have removed the reference to the polish festival celebrating the battle as a victory for Henry II, since, after all, the author of the linked article had confused the solemmn celebration of the fall of the warsaw ghetto revolt with the battle of Legnice/Walhstad/Leignitz - which is the reason the linked article does not work anymore

Let us not speculate and then speculate on a speculation

"However, it should be noted that until now the Mongols had only faced inferior Asiatic armies not the technologically superior and advanced armies of Western Europe. Most historians believe that the Mongols would have suffered utter defeat had it in fact tried to advance to the Atlantic and had to fight the armies of Western Europe."

I find this blatently POV and offensive. And until now, I have never came across a historian that seriously believed that the Western armies were sooo superior as to defeat the armies of Khan in the European theater, which at that time were barely holding on to independance from Islamic invasion from the Eastern front. But again, this is speculation, either way, and the only purpose in posting it is to assauge the superiority complex of some of our Western European descended readers. --Zaphnathpaaneah 22:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Its well known that throughout history, the warriors of the steppes of central Asia, as well as eastern Asia were far superior in orgnanization and battle tactics than any standing European armies at that time period. And this continued all the way until the arrival of firearms. It should also be noted that towards the end of Mongol domination era, Mongols tactics and organization were being used throughout Asia and area of the Middle East (even by the Mameluks themselves).

clearly, Mongol army was far superior in tactics and technology than contemporary european armies. They combined chinese, islamic and steppe tactics and helped by chinese and islamic siege technology to crush any castle. The sounding defeats at Legnica and Mohi illustrates that there is no convincing reason to expect west europe will stand against mongols, except some speculation.. Ati7 07:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the fact that they just happened not to defeat Europe when backed by insane resources might give some indication that the European armies must have put up some effect resistance. Considering how fragmented Europe was I think a unified Europe would give quite the fight to the Mongols. The proof is in the pudding, succession crisis or not. For me this is a Sunday Night Football problem, you have people rooting for their own team. Of course Asian people and European apologists are self conscious about current western superiority and want to show it was a fluke. If the Mongols crushed European armies easily then that validates their claim. The reverse is true for the other side. The real question is what are these nebulous Mongol sources that claim 20,000? I was always told that it was a raid and "no big deal" to the Mongols, I have always wondered because that seems to always be the case when a big empire gets it's butt whipped: "We didn't really want to conquer them anyway." But I wonder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.87.149 (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the white pride, can a fragmented divided army can fight as a unified army in one day against an army that is experience to fight unified for a very long time. 01racman (talk) 12:49, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Explanation of reversion

The About.com link is not a valid source, as it is based on an outdated version of this Wikipedia article (see the bottom of the article). Baidar and Kadan were sent as a diversion to occupy the Polish forces while the main Mongol army struck Hungary; the northern Mongol force's goal was not reconaissance. The ThenAgain.com link uses exaggerated and unscholarly phrasing, has little information on the battle itself, and places a strong emphasis on the involvement of the Teutonic Knights, who quite possibly were not at the battle at all. It is also quite inaccurate by saying that "King Boleslav V" died at Krakow. Is this referring to Bolesław V the Chaste, who became the High Duke of Poland in 1243? It seems difficult for him to die in 1241 and then became the leader of Poland two years later. I also restored the 2,000-40,000 numbers, as scholars and references have been provided for those numbers. The Battle of Mohi is mentioned in the text of the article and in the "See also" section.

Regarding Kadan/Kaidu, this is an excerpt from Chambers' book The Devil's Horsemen. "Nevertheless, several serious histories of central Europe still refer to Liegnitz as a Polish victory, and the most widespread misunderstanding, caused by the use of nicknames and the awesome difficulty encountered in translating oriental characters, has managed to survive into the majority of general history books today. Kadan was mistranslated as Kaidu, and it is therefore said that Ogedei's grandson Kaidu, and not his son Kadan, who partnered Baidar in Poland in 1241. Quite apart form the obscurity of the manuscripts this is impossible since it is known that Kaidu was born in 1230 and ten-year-old boys did not command Mongol armies" (pp. 100-101). Olessi 02:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Kadan

If Kadan was one of the leaders of the first mongol raid against Poland, ho was the leader of the mongol troops ho raided Transylvania in the same year???. I read a some time ago that was Kadan the leader of the mongol raid of Transylvania.

In Chambers' book, he mentions Kuyuk/Guyuk/Güyük and Subutai leading forces in Transylvania. Olessi 06:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

John Man's estimates?

212.217.173.120 added that the allied forces were 100,000 according to John Man's book "Genghis Khan, a travel through the mongol empire". Man does have a book called Genghis Khan: Life, Death, and Resurrection, but I have not found a book called A Travel Through The Mongol Empire in Google searches. Is there a citation for the 100,000 figure? It seems unreasonably high for the time. Olessi 19:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

As no clarification has been provided, I have removed the 100,000 figure. Olessi 18:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Just pointing out that outside of this specific case, a number of 100,000 is actually not as unfeasible as it may sound. Considering Mongol campaigns outside of Europe, numbers of participants often ran as high as 100,000, sometimes more. The Mongols are well known for using auxiliaries, and by the mid 1200s, Mongol auxiliaries already significantly outnumbered ethnic Mongols - Tak

Actually, the 100,000 figure is for the army of Henry the Pious, not the Mongols. The figure has been restored using the aforementioned A Travel Through The Mongol Empire as a source; again, I am unable to find this book through Google or the Library of Congress. The 100,000 figure seems impossibly high, and mentioning 50,000 Bohemians is irrelevant since they did not participate in the battle. Olessi 15:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

As no further information (ISBN, web links, reviews) has been provided, I am removing the information again. Olessi 00:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I was able to find an ISBN for Genghis Khan : life, death, and resurrection by John Man (0593050444). However, my concerns about the numbers remain, and including the Bohemians in the infobox is irrelevant as they did not participate in the battle. Olessi 18:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Higher than usual Mongol casualties?

While reading this paragraph, I have noticed several references stating that the Mongols 'suffered higher casualties than usual'. Except, of course, what defines a 'higher casulaties than usual' for the Mongols?

The battle of Liegnitz/Leignitz, if anything, should be considered as nothing more than a 'side-affair', and played only an insignificant part of the greater Mongol objective of world conquest. In fact, as soon as Ogedai died in 1241, Subotai was recalled and Mongol support for the European theater declined sharply. This occured due to no small part of Batu Khan's parentage, whose father, Jochi, led a questionable lineage. Some considered Jochi to be a bastard, and not Genghis Khan's real son. Although Ogedai exercised general goodwill towards his 'cousin', his other family members, who looked down upon Jochi's descendats, simply could not stand the possibilities of empowering an 'illegitimate' lineage.

The battles where Mongols suffered enormous casulaties occured not in Europe, but elsewhere. Fact is, the swiftness of which Mongol armies conquered Eastern Europe was never emulated elsewhere. In theaters such as China, battles were both lenghty and portracted, where annihilation of entire Mongol armies was not uncommon.

- Tak

It definitely should be referenced. Chambers' book The Devil's Horsemen does not give any figures on Mongol casualties, stating merely, "When the news of the defeat reached him, Wenceslas fell back to collect reinforcements from Thuringia and Saxony. At Klozko the Mongol vanguard found him, but his army was far too powerful for it and it was driven off by his cavalry. The vanguard returned and reported the engagement, and Baidar and Kadan, whose casualties at Liegnitz had been heavy, realized that they did not have the strength to face him" (p. 99). Later he writes, "As always, the incredible mobility of the Mongol army had made the Poles assess its strength at five times greater than it was, and its sudden withdrawal allowed them to believe that their dauntless resistance had inflicted so many casualties that the Mongols had been forced to abandon an invasion" (p. 100).

With that in mind, it seems the Mongols suffered sufficient casualties to be dissuaded from going after the Bohemians, but Bohemia was never a goal of the campaign and would only have been a target of opportunity. The real goal of the entire campaign was Hungary, which was where the Mongol vanguard went after Liegnitz. It is possible the Mongols' casualties have been inflated by the confusion regarding the numbers in their army, or results from the older view that Liegnitz was a Christian victory. I will add a citation needed template for the statement. Olessi 16:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Olessi, thanks for the reply. I have confidence in your ability to monitor subject matters such as this one.

For this article, perhaps it'd be best if the phrase "higher than usual" can be replaced by "higher than expected". "Higher than expected" casualties can be assessed, thus leading to what you mentioned earlier that the Mongol vanguard chose not to engage in a numerically superior enemy . However, "Higher than expected" is very different from "higher than usual". The latter would imply the Mongols suffered far more casualties in this battle than elsewhere, which of course, is untrue, as the Mongols had participated and suffered more casualties in other battlezones prior and after Liegnitz.

- Tak

Thanks for your compliment; I do try to keep things neutral and sourced. I have incorporated your suggestion into the text. Olessi 19:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"Decimated"?

Decimated means 1/10 were killed. At the same time, the article says the allied army was "almost destroyed" and "essentially the entire army". What, everyone else was wounded? Survivalibity of a battle wounds was rather low in the Dark Ages, especially if they lost the field with the wounded to the Mongols (what I guess happened?). --HanzoHattori 21:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The original meaning of "decimate" indeed was to kill 1/10 of the lot. However, that is an archaic meaning; the primary meaning of the term today is "to destroy a great number or proportion of" (see catachresis). Would you prefer "Casualties: Unknown, but most of the army" or variations thereof? Olessi 21:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In a similar discussion, somebody proposed obliterated instead of decimated -- Zz 15:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

About the controversy

I found this site: [1] About the invasion of Poland, this site talks that alongside with Orda and Baidar in the leardship of the invasion there was a son of Chagatai named Qaidan. Also cites that the commander of the mongol forces in Transylvania was Kadan, son of Ogodei, and Buri, grandson of Chagatai. What do they talk about this?? --Nogai Khan 14:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

HOW COULD THE ALLIED TROOPS BE 2,000-40,000 STRONG? That's a really bad estimate... That's like saying the casulaties in the Battle of Stalingrad(for the Russians) range from 50,000 to 1,000,000. 1 - 20 ratio? Why don't you guys just say around 21,000????????....................................................... And then there's the casualties... 2,000-10,000????? 1 - 5 ratio? Better I guess.................................................

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MORE INQUIRIES----

What happened to the descriptions????? When I read these Mongol conquests months back, they detailly explained how the Mongols defeated their enemies. Like when they fought the heavily armored knights, the arrows hardly pierced their armors, so the Mongols aimed for their horses, and picked off the foot soldiers with their heavy calvaries..... What happened to the silk that the Mongol warriors wored that helped them against arrows??? Where are the descriptions of the battle? how did these articles turned so vague and inconclusive?( 2,000-40,000!).......................................................... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Does the 2,000 mean 20,000?

(OPINION) The casualties for the tartars shouldn't be too high, since no other articles mentioned that they were planning to retreat; nor anything about reinforcements (after the battle or before), and previous battles have shown that they were known to beat numerical superior forces( except against the Mamluks of Egypt, and Vietnam, (and maybe Korea)as far as I've read)...................................................................

MrZhuKeeper 09:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for posting up the information..... But logically speaking, from what I've read about the knights of the medieval age, their battlefield tatics, and the armour that they wore. Everything sounds correct, about how they lost.

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Teutonic Knights

While the Teutonic Knights have traditionally been placed at the battle, this viewpoint has been doubted by more recent scholars. Gerard Labuda has written that the Knights were added to Jan Długosz's writings after the chronicler died.[2] Some texts have said that Grand Master Poppo von Osterna died leading the Teutonic Knights in the 1241 battle, which is false. Osterna served as Grand Master during the 1250s (and was buried near/at Liegnitz). This is specifically mentioned in William Urban's The Teutonic Knights (2003) and already sourced in the article.

The chivalricorders.org link is not reliable about the battle, either. It states that Conrad of Thuringia eventually died from wounds sustained during the battle. However, the landgrave actually died from sickness in 1240. The grand master during the time of the battle was Gerhard von Malberg.

The article already describes the overwhelming victory achieved by the Mongols in the battle. The "Junior General" wargaming link does not meet the credentials for a reliable source. Olessi 15:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The structure and style

Am I the only one, who thinks that this article is somewhat ponderously written and uses strange vocabulary, which makes understanding for non-English readers unnecessarily difficult? Today I have already read several other articles about Mongol invasions to Europe, and all suffer from the same faults. It is an ordeal to read it. Centrum99 (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Naming of the article

I came across the article and was suprised to see it called Legnica and not Liegnitz. I've never in my life heard it called by the polish name, in my experience, this battle (and the one of the same name from the 18th century) is always referred to as liegnitz. (or leignitz) Just thought it was rather odd considering this is an english site.Fritigern (talk) 22:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a cursory glance through Google Books with some texts published since 1950: Battle of Liegnitz, Battle of Wahlstatt, Battle of Legnica. Liegnitz seems more commonly used than Legnica, which is more commonly used than Wahlstatt. Olessi (talk) 23:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"wahlstatt" is a german word for battlefield. wahlstatt was the name of the village, that grew around the chapel which was built after the battle (since 1948 "legnica pole" in polish). the term "battle of wahlstatt" is used to specify the 13th century one and not the one at the 7 year war in the 18th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.50.49.215 (talk) 08:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Wahlstatt in medieval times, durign the reign of Henry the bearded (who was the gratest unifier of Poland) has polish name Dobre Pole (what means in english good field) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.183.181 (talk) 15:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Bohemians

80.244.92.183 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has repeatedly added 50,000 Bohemians as part of the Christian army in the infobox. I object to this inclusion, as the Bohemians were at least a day's ride away and did not participate in the battle. This information is already mentioned in the text of the article; since the Bohemians were not involved in the actual battle, they should not be mentioned in the infobox. 80.244.92.183 has stated that 'John Man "Genghis khan", chapter 14, page 207' has relevant information; would (s)he mind posting this information? Olessi (talk) 23:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the rationale has not been provided as to why we should include the Bohemians who did not fight, I will remove them from the infobox again. Olessi (talk) 17:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Factual accuracy is 100% disputed in this article

Don't try to make this article more European friendly. They were defeated crushingly with its leader being killed. Be accurate in the troop presence. it wasy way more than 2,000. Maybe around 60,000- to 80 thousand. Be accurate. Let's leave the pov tag there until everyone is happy. This article is more looking like an excuse for the defeated troops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.70.49 (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Jeeze, what's up with this inferiority towards Europeans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.112.127 (talk) 02:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is very European friendly I smell bias 01racman (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Don't be stupid, there's a reason that they completely halted their advance into central Europe after Legnica, and they explicitly avoided attacking the Bohemian Army. The defeat was anything but "sound," decisive, yes. Their complete defeat at Samara Bend, their lack of success in Anatolia and their embarrassing retreats in Croatia and utter annihilation at the hands of the Mamluks later on in the south all point towards the Golden Horde having been repudiated and stopped dead in its tracks the further they spread West. 2601:49:1:5316:358F:260E:1E8D:7C80 (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Edits by 203.91.114.3

Copied from User talk:203.91.114.3

Battle of Legnica‎

I have reverted your unhelpful edits on Battle of Legnica. The data you changed had inline citations saying where it came from. It is very important that to have data that can be verified from sources - and that the sources are referenced in inline citations (footnotes). Changing the data without updating the citations is extremely unhelpful.

I have noted that you seem to be in the habit of making unexplained changes to numerical data in articles. If you want to improve articles please provide inline citations for your data; otherwise people are likely to revert them.--Toddy1 (talk) 05:39, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Today you have added some new information to the info-box. But you did not add any citations. I have added tags to this. If no citations are provided by the end of the week, I will delete the new additions.

You also altered the URL for a source so that it did not link to the article. I have reverted this unhelpful addition.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The mongols advanced into vienna austria so poland is not the farthest west ...

... they arrived at the suburbs of vienna austria raping and pillaging ... so it's pretty obvious to me that they had full intentions to continue on west . Wernerger7 (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

--> well, Vienna is south of Legnica in an almost straight line - and a little bit to the east, to be precise. So Legnica was the furthest west the Mongols advanced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.72.122.166 (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Vettern von Wahlstatt

" Vettern von Wahlstatt [Bearbeiten]

Vettern von Wahlstatt nannten sich später sechs schlesische Adelsfamilien, von denen jeweils nur ein männliches Familienmitglied die Schlacht überlebt haben soll – die Familien Rothkirch, Strachwitz, Nostitz, Seydlitz, Prittwitz und Zedlitz. Einem Mythos zufolge verlor die Familie Rothkirch alle männlichen Familienangehörigen in der Schlacht. Einzig ein erst nach der Schlacht geborener männlicher Nachkomme existierte. Für diesen übernahm der Bund der überlebenden Kämpfer die Vormundschaft. Die heute lebenden Mitglieder dieser sechs Familien veranstalten regelmäßig Treffen im Gedenken an den Tag der Schlacht." German article

someone able to translate that plx? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.50.49.215 (talk) 07:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's the translation: Vettern von Wahlstatt (Cousins of Wahlstatt) was the name that six silesian noble families, of which is said that only a single male member of each family has survived the battle, gave to themselves later - these are the families of Rothenkirch, Strachwitz, Nostitz, Seydlitz, Prittwitz and Zedlitz. According to a myth the family of Rothenkirch lost all its male members in the battle. Only a boy that has been born after the battle kept the family in existence. The band of the survivors took the wardship of that boy. Until today the members of this six families meet to commemorate the day of the battle. --87.178.43.251 (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

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Orda's forces devastated northern Poland and the southwestern border of Lithuania.[citation needed] Baidar and Kadan ravaged the southern part of Poland: first they sacked Sandomierz; then on 3 March they defeated Polish army near Tursk on 13 February; then on 18 March they defeated another Polish army at Chmielnik; on 24 March they seized and burned Kraków, and a few days later they tried unsuccessfully to capture the Silesian capital of Wrocław (Breslau)

This cronology does not make sense. Did the Monguls sack Sandomierz on February 13?? OvidPete (talk) 03:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Mongol losses - "believed to be minimal"?

Who exactly believed that Mongol losses were minimal? Considering that the Mongol vanguard was forced to retreat in heavy face-to-face combat against heavily armoured knights in the first phase of the battle, it seems it must have suffered serious losses.

The information on Mongol losses is unsourced. And I'm not saying that overall Mongol losses were substantial, but considering the vanguard must have suffered at least considerable losses in the first phase of the battle, overall Mongol losses couldn't be minimal.

Peter558 (talk) 09:18, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

B-class review: failed

Agree with milhist, the citations are deeply insufficient. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 19:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Better source

Could we find a better source than the article by Erik Hildinger from the Military History Magazine? It repeats some disproved myths (for example with regard to the numbers involved, presence of Poppo etc.) and adds a few of its own ("Piastow" vs. Piast, or the idea that this the day is celebrated in Poland - that one is pure, and particularly silly, invention). The Hildinger article is a lot like History Channel programs - pop-history with a bunch of non-serious sensationalism mixed in. Need something better.Volunteer Marek 20:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The text by Kohn looks also quite suspicious. In the cited passage the author claims the presence of about 30.000 Teutonic Knights at Legnica. Even if this was the total size of the European army, it would still look largely exaggerated. I would also like to know the names of some of the German cities that fell like dominoes into the Mongols' hands. A quick google search didn't give me much information in this respect (even if the Mongols may have reached Austria). In any case, the language of the book indicates that this is a popular or even sensationalist text that is not overly concerned with historical accuracy. 92.230.56.119 (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Seconded. The reference, and statements in support of which it is cited, should be removed. --95.89.50.102 (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Easily captured German and Polish Cities?

Actually this did not appear to be the case, the Mongols were repelled by the city of Wroclaw / Breslau and were also defeated by the Bohemians shortly after the battle of Liegnicz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.1.191.34 (talk) 14:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Conclusion section

The conclusion section of the article is weired, as it sounds like the "Battle of Wahlstatt" happened after Mohi and is a different event from Liegnitz - practically it actually repeats the core events as if they happened again. I think it needs a major overhaul. ASchudak (talk) 10:37, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Mongols is outnumbered in the battle of legnica

http://www.arsbellica.it/pagine/medievale/Liegnitz/liegnitz_eng.html

all of the sources indicates mongol is slightly outnumbered in the battle of legnica. PLease change it, i dont feel comfortable downplaying a battle that is very significant in history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.85.230.82 (talk) 17:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Why will Wikipedia erase all of my sources and delete what should have been a very solid historical reference. I'm starting to think this article only favors European pride that downplays a huge Mongol victory in European soil. I'm feeling the butt hurt Europeans freaking downplaying a Asian victory  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:141:301:E3A0:194:77F6:CD71:5F5B (talk) 23:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC) 

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Be Careful of Using Biased European sources

There is a long line of blatantly incorrect European historiography with the mongol conquests that we need to be vigilant against (i,e Frank McLynn, Genghis Khan (2015). Many European chroniclers tried to downplay defeats to the Mongols, and it is all too easy for us westerners to take their accounts at face value and lessen the impact of the Mongolian defeats. For example Polish chronicler Jan Dluoscz estimated the Mongolian army, after it had mysteriously taken such horrible losses in earlier victories that it had to retreat for reinforcements, was many times the size of the Polish army at Liegnitz. He describes Liegnitz as a nearly won battle for the Poles (that somehow turned into a massacre) where the Mongols effectively got lucky in by yelling out 'Run, Run' in Polish. These accounts are, while valuable, inherently untrustworthy without critical appraisal.

The European rulers themselves also issued propaganda of nonexistent victories, such as the supposed Bohemian victory over what could have been no more than a small scouting force shortly after Liegnitz. This of course is not unusual for the time period and for armies facing the Mongols: the Jin generals also lied about victories over the Mongols to Emperor Aizong in the 1230s, right before their Empire was destroyed.

None of the Sino/Persian sources on the Mongols give any indication that Mongol losses at Legnica (in contrast to Mohi, where they were higher than normal) were any different than the normal very small losses Mongols suffered in victories. In aggregate across their campaigns, the Mongols must have taken extremely few losses in battle because otherwise they could have never completed their conquests given their tiny starting numbers. At Mohi there was a reason for the extra losses (Batu aggressively trying to force the bridge in the face of crossbowmen). At Liegnitz, the Mongols created a gap between the knights and the infantry by use of a partial feigned retreat, and separated them with smoke bombs. The isolated knights were then surrounded and killed. Where could these supposed heavy casualties have come from then? Crossbowmen aren't going to do well against horse-archers in the open, and even if the initial knight charge may have connected into a Mongol unit, we must keep in mind Philip Sabin's research that the vast majority of casualties in pre-modern combat came from the rout, not the melee.

73.247.69.66 (talk) 18:55, 1 September 2017 (UTC)Baldwin

Chambers

For all the complaints about non-English sources, could we get the actual quote from Chambers? Also, some info on the book. It appears to be pretty old and the info may well be outdated. Volunteer Marek  19:47, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

And the number of 25000 for the "European" side seems a bit dubious. Medieval battles just were not that large. This is within the realm of "possible" but also "unlikely". And of course there was a tendency for chroniclers of the time to exaggerate the size of forces to make it more dramatic, and historiography well into 20th century had a tendency to take these exaggerations at face value uncritically. Volunteer Marek  19:50, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Chambers, J. (1979). The Devil's Horsemen: The Mongol Invasion of Europe. Atheneum. I'm not the one who quoted his work but the page is given so you can look it up if you need a quote. Furthermore, no significant new info or work on the subject as far as I know in the last few years so there's no reason for the book to be obsolete.

Given the wikipedia guidelines:

"Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance."

"If you quote a non-English reliable source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should always accompany the quote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations."

Unless you can provide a reliable translation of Maron's work or prove that Chambers work is obsolete, the current numbers will stay.

"And the number of 25000 for the "European" side seems a bit dubious. Medieval battles just were not that large. This is within the realm of "possible" but also "unlikely"." First, this isn't a discussion forum, second you would need serious academic to support that claim and not just what you think is dubious or unlikely.

"And of course there was a tendency for chroniclers of the time to exaggerate the size of forces to make it more dramatic, and historiography well into 20th century had a tendency to take these exaggerations at face value uncritically." Again, this is not the place to write what you think or believe.Asteriset (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed - exactly.

If you quote a non-English reliable source - we're not including quotes. Just using it as source. And the note is already provided.

And there's no provision about "a reliable translation", whatever that is suppose to be. You just invented that part of the guideline yourself.

Chambers' work is from 1979 (almost thirty years old). And Chambers is an "amateur" historian [3]. The book is also a work written for popular consumption. These types of works often sensationalize and exaggerate historical facts. Hence, dubious.

On the other hand Jerzy Maroń is a professional historian who's a professor at a top ranked university. He, unlike Chambers, is actually a specialist in this area. His work is from 2001.

This is no contest. We go with the high quality scholarly source, whatever language it is in. Volunteer Marek  15:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

"Citing non-English sources: Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page."

"Quoting non-English sources: If you quote a non-English reliable source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should always accompany the quote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations." I didn't invent any guideline, learn to read. Asteriset (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes and there already is a note for Maron. You also need to remember WP:AGF.

And before telling me to "learn to read" you might want to parse that sentence you wrote and pay special attention to the word "quote". Volunteer Marek  16:14, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

"if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source" "If you quote a non-English reliable source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should always accompany the quote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians" I don't see a translation from a reliable source, again learn to read.Asteriset (talk) 16:30, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

There's already a note with the source. You're being obstinate. And: "If you QUOTE...". We. Are. Not. Quoting. Volunteer Marek  16:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Can you seriously not read more than two sentences? "editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source" > PROVIDE A TRANSLATED QUOTE OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE. Again, learn to read.Asteriset (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

You really need to stop it with the "learn to read" stuff. It's becoming tiresome and doesn't exactly encourage cooperation. Volunteer Marek  16:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

This is tiresome because of your inability to read two sentences together, again the guidelines are clear: in case of dispute provide a translated QUOTE from a reliable source. End of story.Asteriset (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Here is your translation of "3800": "3800". Volunteer Marek  17:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

From what I could find concerning Chambers, he is just a writer and can not be considered a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

The article is completely rubbish and not historically accurate?

Clearly the Europeans have downplay a very significant battle. The facts doesn’t show the Mongols are in a numerical disadvantage, a very misleading article that is biased to make the Templars and European medieval army look good 01racman (talk) 22:13, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, I fully agree. It is part and parcel of the Polish fanatics re-writing history as they would wish it to be seen on the English-language Wikipedia and no-one at all polices them. All over Wikipedia their hilarious pages are. Find a non-Polish history book and read it. You will hardly recognise this trash.2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:9D76:2A74:EFB2:39D (talk) 20:00, 10 February 2019 (UTC)