Talk:Surrealism/Archive 5

The Talk:Surrealism discussion page has been archived 9 times.

• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 1 - until Sep 17 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 2 - until Sep 28 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 3 - until Oct 13 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 4 - until Nov 11 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 5 - until Jan 25 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 6 - until Aug 06 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 7 - until Sep 03 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 8 - until Sep 29 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 9 - until Mar 03 2007

If you wish to reply to something that was said in an archived comment, please copy the relevant text to the current talk page rather than editing the archives.

Topic

The topic of Talk:Surrealism is the wikipedia Surrealism article, and how we can improve it. This is not the place to copy and paste lengthy texts or engage in arguments about non-wikipedia topics. Thank you for cooperating.

Wikipedia Policy

Wikipedia Policy does stipulate that a consensus is not binding.24.168.66.27 00:20, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please link to the policy you are referring to. Of course, the 6/1 consensus in the informal poll could always be overridden by a larger consensus in another poll (and I have encouraged you to start a new poll if you are not satisfied with the old one), but until such a time that there is a consensus apparent here that differs from the one on Talk:Surrealism/Archive 04 promotion of Keith Wigdor should not be re-inserted in this article. Please do not revert on this issue again. ~leif ☺ _HELO 03:22, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sir, you appear to be very intent on refusing my right to edit. The Wikipedia Policy regarding consensus can be found here on Wikipedia. Why don't you know about it?24.168.66.27 03:32, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I replied at User talk:24.168.66.27#Wikipedia_Policy because this thread is now more about users and policy than about this article. ~leif ☺ _HELO 04:11, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Keith Wigdor paragraph is about Surrealism, why do you want to have me banned, instead of just polite disagreement?24.168.66.27 19:06, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Surrealist film and television

I propose that the Surrealist film section should be merged with the brief TV section. The film section could also be cleaned up a bit, and one film that I doubt anyone would object to adding is Waking Life. ~leif ☺ _HELO 22:48, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In what context to you wish to place the film and tv information within the surrealism article? Any information on Bunuel and Dali's film collaborations is perfect for this article, so that can stay. I do not object to the TV show, "The Prisoner" because that was a show with strong surrealist influences, plus I really liked the show too. Leif, it appears that your interest in surrealism is very limited to material that exists outside the surrealist project, why don't you try to find a picture of Andre Breton with Franklin Rosemont, or how about trying to validate much of the information already within this article.63.169.104.2 21:11, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I love the TV show, "The Prisoner". It is very surreal.24.168.66.27 18:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is probably the best version of this article

This is probably the best version of this article now, thanks to the new recent revisions and additions by this user Sterling. It is certainly good to see different people inputting information into this article that has been dominated by too much vague information by Daniel C.Boyer. Way too many references to the likes of his friends have ruined this article as well as surrealism. That book by Franklin Rosemont, "What is Surrealism" is the most blantant misrepresentation of facts regarding surrealism and how it should be researched. Rosemont dominates way too much of his own likes and dislikes and here Boyer has been trying to monopolize this article with the terrible versions as well as the other pages. Well done, Sterling! It's good to see fresh input! I love the third paragraph on Dali in this article! There is way too much Dali-bashing by this bogus, "surrealists"! There really should be more information on Salvador Dali and how he saved Surrealism!24.168.66.27 20:30, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Modernism template

I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Artistic Movement

Stirling Newberry's POV that surrealism is an artistic movement is not borne out by facts yet he persists on reinserting it. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:29, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Facts, it is the most common usage of the word. Wiki rules clearly state that articles must represent in proportion to presence of points of view. This article does not, yet, meet that standard. You can complain all you like, but acting in bad faith is not going to help your cause. Stirling Newberry 16:56, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you are implying that I am acting in bad faith there is a certain irony here as you are the one who is acting in bad faith (pointedly ignoring every single primary source on the subject). Moreover, the cited standard certainly couldn't be true across the board. The man on the street, when pressed, would probably not have the POV that Stalin was born in Gori, Georgia, but might well have had him born in Russia. Should we acknowledge this as the primary POV? If people in general used the word "communism" to refer to an artistic movement, despite the fact that no such artistic movement exists or has existed, how should this be dealt with in Wikipedia? --Daniel C. Boyer 17:48, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The second paragraph by Stirling in, "Impact on Surrealism" has nothing to do with Breton

Dear Stirling, you are really new to this article and I do welcome any edits made by you and anyone else. However, you will definitely cause a severe scandal and outrage when you start making references to, "brainstorming" and the writing process that takes place in all those capitalist prisons that you mention: the business world and universities, etc. as being somewhat influenced by Breton's automatic writing and thought at the beginning of this century. Now, that I think about it, Daniel C.Boyer's input was more credible to the facts regarding Breton. Sterling, you need to read the book, "What is Surrealism" by Andre Breton and Edited and Introduced by Franklin Rosemont and decide whether it is a misrepresentation of facts or the most credible book on the subject, but you need to read it! You also need to denounce everything that surrealism seeks to destroy, in order to show that your edits are sincere to the article topic. Stirling, surrealism is a weapon and form of social revolt.24.168.66.27 18:14, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's one POV, there are others. Wikipedia is here to document them, not to be an annex for any particular organization or POV. Stirling Newberry 18:32, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What you are saying is true so far as it goes, but a POV that says that surrealism is not (amongst other things, not including "an artistic movement") "a weapon and form of social revolt" is a novel POV not espoused by surrealism itself, merely imposed upon it by the confused and those deliberately misrepresenting the movement. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:41, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why do you insist on vomiting on your keyboard? Stirling Newberry 20:23, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, this should help you understand, look for the interview Andre Breton gave to Rene Belance that appeared in the Haiti-Journal(Dec.12 and 13, 1945) and also in Entretiens. This will enable you to have a more clear understanding of the aims of surrealism and its use of automatism to maintain and achieve total human freedom, which you will never find in the business world (CEO's and staff, "brainstorming sessions) and universities. Also, try to get a hold of the essay by Breton, "Words without Wrinkles", and one of the main sources of influence on surrealist theory on automatism, FWH Meyer's, "Human Personality and its Survival After Bodily Death" which should be mentioned in this article.24.168.66.27 20:48, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You can push your POV all you like, it won't change the mountain of documentary evidence treating surrealism as an artistic movement that had broad impact out side of Bretonisme. Stirling Newberry 21:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Stirling,

You can push your POV all you like, but supporting it by lies is really questionable. www.surrealcoconut.com is not a group, and right on it it says "How many times must it be reiterated that surrealism is not an art movement?" So calling www.surrealcoconut.com a group of "self-identified" surrealist artists is either a knowing lie, or you can't be bothered to read the websites you reference. --65.174.34.14 17:24, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, "surrealcoconut" website is a total fraud and is run by the above user, obviously. It is the worst website on surrealism that I have ever seen.63.169.104.2 18:14, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Whether or not "surrealcoconut" is a "total fraud" (whatever that means) is irrelevant to my objection that in saying (apparently) that those who participate in it thus "self-identify" "as surrealist artists" when right on the home page it says that surrealism is not an artistic movement. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Stirling, Stirling, I must kindly disagree with you on your above statement that I am trying to, "push" my point of view. I am not disagreeing with you on the aspects of surrealism as an artistic movement, Stirling, that I do fully support your edit addition there, but your input into the second paragraph regarding the automatic process, I do kindly disagree. If you feel so strong about it, then please explain in more detail the consequences of how, "brainstorming" sessions in the business world relate to the extreme revolutionary impact that surrealism and its use of automatism had on the world, then and now. I can tell you are a little upset and I do want to work with you, so I am awaiting your response. I do feel that it is vital to this article's integrity that everyone must focus on the foundation set forth by Andre Breton, and those who followed. I do wish that there was more EMPHASIS on Salvador Dali's IMMENSE impact and contribution to Surrealism.24.168.66.27 21:23, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, about the website, "surrealcoconut"....

Stirling, the website, surrealcoconut.com that user 65.174.34.14 is talking about is a total scam and completely full of bogus information. Stirling, please do not let the self-promotion of a scam hack artist, Eric W.Bragg, (a fugazi self-appointed surrealist) attempt to influence your right to edit the Surrealism article. Your information is very helpful to students and researchers who study surrealism. This website, "surrealcoconut" is one of those do-it-yourself free websites that is so no-budget and sophmoric(and full of lies), plus it has nothing to do with the true aspects of surrealism, that its only more of the blantant self-promotion that you see online. Surrealcoconut is a site run by a marginal nobody, Eric W.Bragg, who is trying to influence the public that he and his very small number of friends are the real surrealists. Stirling, please keep on editing this article and obtaining more of the good information that you have uploaded. Surrealcoconut is a fraud.63.169.104.2 18:01, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It has both traffic and google hits, and therefore isn't "nobody". However, it is perfectly reasonable to include critiques - so long as they have documentable currency. There's nothing wrong with reporting the down side of what people are doing. For example, what could be wrong with

The commercialization of the word surrealism has lead (Fill in the blank who) to criticize such "do it yourself" efforts as being amateurish, ungrounded in the fundamentals of the surrealist movement as outlined in (fill in the blank) and the result of being "crass self-promotion" that debases the meaning of the word. Stirling Newberry 20:06, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Or some such. Stirling Newberry 20:06, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Stirling, your edits have really...

Dear Stirling, your edits have really distorted this article. You literally saturated this article with SO many art references that are really not completely true to the aims and principles of surrealism. With all due respect, you are editing this article like some kind of art critic or museum curator. I do understand that you have the right to add information, but you completely leave out ALL the most important facts and details regarding the true aims and principles of surrealism. Also, you saturated this article page with so many links to paintings, it is beyond me that you would deny any links to any collage artworks by Breton or anything by Toyen. Stirling, plus, I doubt that you even care about mentioning the MOST important figure in all of surrealism, Lautremont! Stirling, do you know who Gerome Kamrowski is? If you can add any art links on him to this article that would be nice. Or E.F.Granell.24.168.66.27 01:30, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you want to add more material, by all means do so. However, it must be balanced and NPOV. The anonymous pove vandalism, so far, has not been either.Stirling Newberry 01:42, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, yes, the article should be NPOV, so please help this article by uploading the necessary facts with the integrity that the aims and principles of surrealism stands for which has been established in its history to now, and is also documented in depth. Also, when someone removes or reverts your art paragraphs, it is not vandalism. Why do you even mention Pop Art in the surrealism article? This is killing it.24.168.66.27 02:22, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Pov Troll

So? Stirling Newberry 02:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What. Stirling Newberry 02:30, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, you know absolutely NOTHING about Surrealism! You are real lame. The article was better with Daniel Boyer's edits.24.168.66.27 18:13, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Proper surrealism was a political movement

In fact, Dali was kicked out of it... and nicknamed "Amida Dollars" (anagram) for selling out. I think he favoured the fascists in Spain.

The proper surrealists were linked with socialism and communism, although they got alienated from Stalinism proper, but there isn't much mention of this in the article.

Do you have a reference or citation to back up these two claims? See Wikipedia:Cite sources. Hyacinth 18:25, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The problem here is that the poves want the ability to "excommunicate" different usages of the word. It's like the argument between different groups as to what constitutes "real" socialism. Dali was expelled from Breton's Surrealist movement in 1937. He himself argued that in the 1950's he was not a "surrealist", but, look up his work from the 1950's in Hughes and others, and it is still listed as surrealism. The argument is over who "owns" the world surrealism. Wikipedia is dedicated to documenting all commonly used versions of a term. Stirling Newberry 18:32, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Anonymous Pove Troll

That POV is already documented. Stirling Newberry 14:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's also already been trolled. Stirling Newberry 14:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Where? Hyacinth 19:08, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling, your spelling is wrong and also..

You spelled Tanguy wrong in the article, you wrote, Targuy, and also Ernst Max!!! Also, it's Avida Dollars, not Amida Dollars, you idiot!!! Now go back and listen to your lame classical music.24.168.66.27 18:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

User:24.168.66.27, Please see below regarding personal attacks. Hyacinth 19:07, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling's other addition, "Surrealism as an Artistic Movement" is awful and not reliable

Stirling, you and your edits are so LAME! This whole section that you added is like reading some awful art catalogue. Please let a surrealist ADD the CORRECT information!!!! More information on surrealists like ELT Mesens and Toyen, etc, etc, etc. You are real lame, Stirling, go away!!!!24.168.66.27 18:24, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

User:24.168.66.27, please see Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor....Discuss the facts and how to express them, not the attributes of the other party". If you continue to make personal attacks you may be temporarily blocked from Wikipedia. Thanks. Hyacinth 19:04, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comment on Comments

You can see that I am upset as anyone LOYAL to Surrealism would be, so with all due respect, the namecalling goes on the path of a two-way street. I don't like being called a Troll either, Stirling. So, in order to prevent me from being blocked by Hyacinth, I will refrain from lashing out, but do not do it to me either. Calling someone or anyone a troll is also a personal attack.24.168.66.27 17:02, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Clearly your tactic is to provoke and to make it unpleasant for me to deal with you to the point I will go away. This is a serious breach, and indicates not merely that you can't be trusted to edit this page, but that you can't be trusted. Stirling Newberry 17:33, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Now, for Comments on Article

This article needs to be precise in its presentation of the facts regarding surrealism. Let us FOCUS and ANALYZE what perspective we can engage, so that the article can stay coherent and factual. The best source on Surrealist Art is, "Surrealism and Painting" by Andre Breton. You need to research and reference that before you decide to write a POV dominated article passage like the one on Surrealist Art. The Pop Art reference MUST GO! There is no colleration nor any adherence to any, "influence" or, "effect", or, "impression" that Surrealism had on Pop Art, becuase it just does not exist, nor should Pop Art even be mentioned in the article. There are way too many essential surrealist artists being overlooked by Stirling's additions of artists to this article as well. Stirling tells us all about the usual suspects, like Miro, Picasso, Dali, Tanguy, etc,etc, which we can all reference from any common art catalogue or book, but remember the ESSENTIAL SURREALIST ARTISTS, that you overlook to serve the dominant art world bias, and they are TOYEN (who is probably one of the most important Surrealists and Surrealist Artists ever, in my opinion), RAOUL UBAC, JINDRICH STYRSKY(who is also another MAJOR SURREALIST and SURREALIST ARTIST),WILHEIM FREDDIE(who is just as technically brilliant as Dali!!!),WILFREDO LAM, JACQUES HEROLD, CLOVIS TROUILLE, GEORGES MALKINE, etc, etc. This is just one point that I bring up. Now, how about an article passage on SURREALIST POETS? Where is there any mention of LOUIS ARAGON or RED FRONT by the way?24.168.66.27 17:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"The Usual Suspects" are what most references mean by "Surrealism". The purpose of this article is to document the uses of the word which individuals are likely to encounter. The overwhelmingly likely uses include the artistic movement. Your attitude is unwiki, despotic, dishonest and trollish. It is clear that you have no intent in acting in good faith. This article is not your personal web page, that you treat it as such indicates that you have contempt for wikimedia foundation, the wikipedia project and the other editors. Stirling Newberry 17:31, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Your attitude is unwiki". Stirling, that is a classic!24.168.66.27 19:11, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You might consider removing the "!" from your keyboard it would improve the quality of your writing tremendously. Stirling Newberry 19:52, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, now Stirling, this article can improve

Seriously, now Stirling, this article can improve. I will abide by all the advice given to me by Hyacinth and try to understand your edits more comprehensively. Please try to understand my position as well. This can get better. A clear distinction must be made in regards to the context of Surrealism and how it is to be documented for others to research. It must be accepted to acknowledge the foundation set by Breton and even after his passing as well. We all know that many facets of modern life have been affected by Surrealism in one way or another, but we are focusing on the true aspects of Surrealism here when we document the facts. Also, it is a fact, (most overlooked by the followers of Breton, and even Breton himself) that he, Andre Breton, was NOT the first person to stake claim to founding Surrealism, and publishing the first surrealist publication. Do we all know who Yvan Goll is?24.168.66.27 21:11, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would also suggest not personally addressing headers to people on talk pages. Headers should be used to facilitate discussion by indicating and limiting topics related to the article. For instance, you could make a header whose title describes in a few words one problem you have with the article. This will make it easy for people to address that issue, work towards consensus, and eventually resolve the issue or dispute and improve the article. Hyacinth 21:41, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This article can improve, however statements such as "We all know that many facets of modern life have been affected by Surrealism in one way or another, but we are focusing on the true aspects of Surrealism here when we document the facts. " show that you have no interest in "improving" the article, but in imPOVing the article. Once more: you can talk about how a group condemns others, you cannot censor documented information because you don't like it. You should also be writing to present all of the documentable POVs, not merely your particular POV. You should be balancing the presentation by the available sources. In your talk posts, Mr. 24.168.66.27 (incidentally creating an account would do wonders for your credibility), you have admited 1. My edits have are backed by sources, 2. That the contention of surrealism's wider influence is correct 3. That you do not like the state of the literature about surrealism. There means what you want to do is original work, which you should be doing under your own name, in a publication or web page. Stirling Newberry 22:04, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hyacinth, I will follow your advice. Stirling, as regards to the issue of credibility, it really does not make any difference at all if I log in or not, just read what is presented. I have no idea if, "Stirling Newberry" is your real name and it would not make a difference if you came in here under the four octet IP. It is the article that is most important. Now, I will refrain from the remarks towards you, Hyacinth was right and I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I hope that you will not think that I am being unwiki after all. Now, as for the sources that you are referring to, Stirling, those are art sources mainly, not from books on Surrealism, or I am wrong? Please prove me wrong. I used to ask that of Daniel C.Boyer as well. Please prove me wrong. I want to be proven wrong on any issue, as long as the article is improved, that is most important. However, Stirling, I am not here to push or force my point of view, please believe me and again I apologize for my nasty remarks to you in the above posts. I was being unwiki. Now, I propose that any consensus can be reached with an open discussion on the CONTEXT of Surrealism, first, especially considering that it is beyond argument that the revolutionary aspects of surrealism and its intention to transform life by desire is the main goal of all surrealism, even those who do not follow all the guidelines set forth by Breton. For example, I completely agree with ALL of the First Manifesto of Surrealism, but I have issues with the 2nd and 3rd. I would love to know Boyer's feedback on this point, as well as yours.24.168.66.27 23:52, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Outline

First, when writing articles that have multiple documented stable points of view, it is important to be precise with language. As with many "isms" the word "Surrealism" is applied to multiple related groups of people, and as a result must have each context defined correctly, and used consistently in the article. You keep referring to "surrealism" as if it is a monolithic term or group. This is not the documentable usage: surrealism means different things in different contexts. There are numerous monographs and books on "surrealism" that mean surrealism in the visual arts, which consider the philosophical movement the same way a book on musical impressionism would consider the movement in the visual arts: a background. This is not uncommon (symbolism, classicism, romanticism, minimalism, modernism - all apply to varying, but related, movements). The article should explain clearly to a reader which is which, so that they can understand whatever it is made them look it up.

As far as I can see the material wants to be divided into the following sections:

1. Surrealism as a political movement, which would focus the evolution from Dada to surrealism, on Breton manifesti and the movement formed around them, and how that movement, as a coherent movement exists today.
2. Surrealism as a philosophical and literary movement. On the techniques used by surrealists to produce surrealist work.
3. Surrealism as an artistic movement - which would focus on the movement in the visual arts.
4. Surrealism as a genre - it's use beyond specific movements, including its influence in film, popular culture and so on, particularly in reference to those who describe their work as surreal but who have no direct connection to the various surrealist traditions/movements.

When you say "true principles of surrealism" what you mean is "not part of surrealism the political or philosophical movement." There is absolutely no reason why this should not be documented in an NPOV manner. However, Surrealism is not owned by anyone as a trade mark, it is not up to this article or its authors to determine who is, and who is not, a surrealist. Our job is to document who identifies or is labelled a surrealist, what that means in context, and what connections are to be drawn, and what controversies surround that identification. NPOV does not mean saying only nice things, it does mean attributing precisely who is saying what.

There is sufficient information in the article already - let alone what needs to be added - to take it and break it up into several sections (as postmodernism was) with a descriptive section on each, and then a reference to a main article which will be devoted specifically to that particular idea or thread in surrealism. This will also reduce the need for semantic apparatus - once a person is directed to a page on "Surrealism (visual arts)", then the introduction to that article can say "This article refers to the movement in the visual arts, (See also Surrealism (Literature))" Or whatever the other topic articles are named.

Remember the reason I bounced to this page is because I created a modernism template, and put Surrealism on it, and am working on upgrading the cultural movements categories and articles on wiki. Part of the point is to get people who are looking up "surrealism" to realize the breadth and importance of this movement. However, that means both within itself, and also in other movements as well.

Let us work together to get this article to its best form. (But yes, having a wiki account would improve your credibility).Stirling Newberry 07:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stirling is right, this article can be worked out. This maybe an issue of semantics afterall. I think user 24. gets too deep into the political and philosophical aspects of the movement. Really the movement ended after Breton, we need to move on. Go for it Stirling.63.169.104.2 20:50, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here's where I'd like to stand up for 24: documenting the movement after Breton is certainly in the range of the article, and should be, just as documenting artists who say they are surrealists should be.

I'd like to propse that we

1. Agree for the time being to turn the discussion page into a sandbox. That is put a version of the article here, rework it until everyone is reasonably content with it going to the front page.
2. Ask the article to be unprotected
3. Create 3 subsidiary articles Surrealism (visual arts), Surrealism (genre) and Surrealism (movement) .
4. Move text to these articles and create tight summaries on this page. Provide cross linking so that all 4 articles reference each other.
5. Continue consultations in the belief that what is most important is to these articles up to a high level of quality.

Thoughts? Stirling Newberry 06:02, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Where, O where is Keith Wigdor?

If anyone is curious, in the interests of creating a NPOV article about surrealism, it should be noticed that both user#63.169.104.2 and user#24.168.66.27 were the main users interested in pushing the Keith Wigdor article forward. If you have any doubts, then check the discussion page for that article.

It wasn't long ago that all references to "Keith Wigdor" were removed from this "surrealism" article, for the simple reason that Keith Wigdor is a digital artist who fancies himself as a being a surrealist, and who has many times attempted to pose as a surrealist. Needless to say, many of the english-speaking surrealist groups listed on this page know about him and refuse to have anything to do with him. For that reason, Keith Wigdor appears again and again to disrupt all things genuinely surrealist. For this reason, Wigdor is like a ghost, especially like an ugly, twinkie-eating ghost.

It is also interesting to note, if you check the discussion archives of this "surrealism" article, that these same 2 users were also involved with promoting Keith Wigdor as a surrealist, in this very article. Also, if you look at some of the recent, beligerent, trollish posts of these 2 users, it shouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that perhaps both of these 2 IP numbers are being used by Keith Wigdor.

For the 2 no-name users mentioned here, who are strongly associated with or strongly correlated with the antics of Keith Wigdor, it is difficult to imagine that their efforts in building this wiki article will be anything but disruptive and manipulative in the long run. Please treat these 2 users with extreme caution, for they are one and the same, and also happen to be Keith Wigdor, who is playing a sock-puppet game. --Bleedy 22:10, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)