Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 04:27, 11 December 2019

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/L

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

December 2

Use of "alter" intransitively

"The musical scene in France had altered considerably during Gounod's absence." Is this usage considered correct in any variation of English? A modification to "changed" was reverted as "unexplained". Jmar67 (talk) 11:11, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That use of altered is perfectly acceptable per this. Altered without an object is a synonym of "changed". --Jayron 32 13:08, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of lunate sigma

I always thought that the lunate sigma was simply a simplified version of the more common sideways-M shaped sigma that was popular in medieval times. But Dbachmann disagrees; Dbachmann says that it comes from samekh; they got this result from a book published in 1842 that's in German. Do many people today think that this is right?? If so, then how did lunate sigma get its shape and alphabetization?? (If it were simply a variant of samekh, it would more likely be place either right after xi (the original variant of samekh the Greek alphabet had) or at the end of the alphabet (which is where new letters are usually added.) Georgia guy (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the early Greek alphabets had an "M"-looking letter (usually referred to as "San") between Pi and Qoppa, but as far as I can tell, there was little or no overlap in time and space between early San and the later Hellenistic Lunate Sigma. I also really don't know why the shape of Samekh is invoked -- Samekh did NOT have any type of curved shape when the Phoenician alphabet was initially borrowed to form the Greek alphabet, and after that, the Northwest Semitic scripts did not have any ascertainable continuing influence on Greek. I'm looking at a chart of Northwest Semitic scripts starting from Phoenician down to before the dominance of Syriac, and the only one in which Samekh has any shape similarity at all to a Lunate Sigma is the Palmyrene alphabet, which certainly didn't exert any influence on Hellenistic Greek... AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

link to 1842 book Nesselmann, G. H. F. (1842). Die Algebra der Griechen: Versuch Einer Kritischen Geschichte der Algebra - Nach Den Quellen Bearbeitet. p. 75. -- 14:58, 2 December 2019 EricR

The text above is i think claiming origin from Hebrew?

With regard to the narrative, both Semitic books are mixed in the Greek Σιγυα, in that C, σ is derived from the Semitic samek, ס, whereas Σ, ς is derived from the sin שׁ, old Phoenician W.
— google translate, unicode approximations

just wrong, or maybe taken out of context?—eric 12:05, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

or maybe typesetting error(s)? I imagine such a text might be difficult in 1842.—eric 12:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked at the 1842 book, but I wonder if the German word buchstaben "letters" has been mistranslated as "books" in the passage above.

It's actually well-known that the names of the Greek sibilant letters are kind of mixed up with respect to the alphabetic orders and shapes. The Greek letter sigma Σ has a shape and alphabetic ordering corresponding to Phoenician šin ש, but if the name sigma derives from anything in Semitic it would be samekh. Similarly, the early Greek letter san has a shape and alphabetic ordering corresponding to Phoenician tsade צ, but if the name san derives from anything in Semitic it would be šin. (Note that the Phoenician names of the letters of the alphabet are not actually known, so the Hebrew letter names are used to stand in for them, or sometimes hypothetical Phoenician letter names are reconstructed from the attested Hebrew and Aramaic letter names.)

However, none of this has anything to do with the Hellenistic Lunate Sigma, as far as I can see... AnonMoos (talk) 17:54, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos, do some people disagree with the statement that the ancient Phoenician names of the letters are the same as those of Hebrew?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They wouldn't necessarily be exactly the same as the attested Hebrew names, due to various historical sound changes -- for example, it's doubtful whether the post-vocalic spirantization of non-geminate consonants attested in Biblical Hebrew as it has come down to us would have existed in 800 B.C. Phoenician, while segholization epenthesis also might not have existed (or if it did exist, probably applied in a much more limited way than in attested Biblical Hebrew)... AnonMoos (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

translation from Hebrew to English

I am having great difficulty in translating coherently the following into English. I would therefore be grateful if a user can please assist me. Thank you וכל חבר מחויב לקבל ע"ע שילמוד בכל יום דף גמרא בעת הזאת, בלי שום וסת הפלגה, ומאליו מובן שיועילו תשלומים ביומו. כנים הדברים, כי כמה מפריעים ומשטינים ישנם לו לאדם בכל דבר טוב, ביחוד לסוחר בטלטולא דגברי דקשה, או למי שהנו בדרך רחוקה, אבל עכ"פ בעת ועונה שיבוא לשפוך שיחו בין הערבים, בביהמ"ד או ביהכנ"ס, ימצא שם מקום שנזדמנה חבורה שילמדו אותו דף הגמרא הקבוע, וממילא יהיה נקל לו להתאחד עמהם גם עתה בדף שפסק אתמול בביתו ואל יחסר המזג. ומה נהדר ויפה היה לקבוע שכל המכתבים וחלופי דברים השונים, שנשלחם מעיר לעיר, וממקום למקום, יוסמנו בדף גמרא של יומו הקבוע לו, ובזה תהא הבקורת, שחברינו לדעה, לומדים כסדר בלי העלמה ואחור. מהנכון ש"צעירי אמוני ישראל" שיחיו יקבלו עליהם טכוס והתארגנות דבר זה בסדר ובמשטר, ולפרסם מקודם במכתב עת [בעיתון] "דער יוד" באיזה יום נחוג התחלה וכדומה...." Simonschaim (talk) 18:05, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Deborahjay ---Sluzzelin talk 18:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While my Hebrew is a bit rusty, I believe this is an extract from a larger or longer text and reads thus: "…Every member is required to receive a Gemara every day without exception and will of course benefit from this everyday too. Despite negative rumours, this can be beneficial to trade, especially those who are not nearby. We will discuss this with the Arabs but plan to; in every court and high school there will be a place for gathering and to teach and learn a page of the Gemara, a place where it will be easy for them to reunite. A page was discussed and dissected just yesterday in this house without tempers being raised. In fact, great and beautiful where the statements made in the various exchanges between city to city and place to place. Your argument states that they will be made to study as an order without restraint or reservation. It is true that the “young people of Israel’s faith” who will benefit from this will also be those who will organise it, but this is not illegal. We will publish firstly in the journal “Der Iod” which is in today’s edition…". Thanks. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My Hebrew's rusty, too, but I can see some errors just in the first few words, which I'd translate "And every member must take on themselves the obligation to learn a page of Gemara every day at this time..." The "at this time" has the same ambiguity as English - it could mean time of day, or an undefined period of weeks or months. The word for "member" is chaber, which doesn't translate easily, carrying connotations of friend and colleague, or even (rarely) status in learning. If this was posted in a Yeshiva, I'd colloquially translate it as "student". In a Kollel, "member". I'd leave this to a specialist like Deborah unless you're fine with rough and ready. And context will help her with ambiguities like those I mention above. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(Also, I'll defer to Deborah, but I very much doubt that "בין הערבים" refers to Arabs.) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My clarifications, in order of appearance in the text:

"mehuyav lekabel 'al-'atzmo" (מחויב לקבל- ע"ע) is as User:Dweller states, literally "is obligated to take upon himself"
"she-yilmod" (שילמוד), "that he will study" - in Hebrew, "study" and "learn" are essentially the same word and context dependent: no matter how much and how long you study a page of Gemara (part of the Talmud), there's always more to teach and learn.
While the words for "evening" (erev) and "Arab" do share the triliteral root ayin-resh-beth, the common, poetic expression bein ha'arba'ayim simply means "twilight" (literally, between evening and evening). Source: Exodus 29:39.
"be-beit midrash u-be-beit knesset" (בביהמ"ד או ביהכנ"ס), "in a study hall or in a synagogue"
"tse'irei emuneh yisrael" ("צעירי אמוני ישראל" ) are the "young people of the Jewish faith" (as in several languages, "Israel" in this context is the Jewish people or religion)
"Der Yod" ("דער יוד") - possibly the newspaper is named for the Torah pointer; the Germanic pronoun indicates Yiddish language

-- Deborahjay (talk) 19:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

-- Expanded by Deborahjay (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While the Hebrew is as Deborah says ambiguous, English-speaking Orthodox Jews will almist always refer to "learning" not "studying" Torah (in the broad sense of Torah), presumably in a throwback to the days of yore when it was literally learned off by heart, a tradition that persists in some dermographies. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 23:13, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

December 3

I want to translate from Albanian into English.

Hello!

I am a volunteer translator for Wikipedia, translating from English->Albanian. How can I do the opposite, translate from Albanian into English?

Albi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albi Ndoni (talk • contribs) 16:34, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the offer. Pick an article at [1] that doesn't have an equivalent article in English and make an English version of it. --Viennese Waltz 16:52, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But do be aware of translation, and also of your first article. English Wikipedia's policies may not be the same as sq-wiki's, so a straight translation of a sq-wiki article will not necessarily be acceptable in en-wiki. --ColinFine (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Back vowels

I've noticed that in many languages, the words for "shame"/"disgrace" have 1-2 syllables and the accent falls on the back vowel: "honte", "Schande", "sram"... Do they have some common ancestor, is the kiki-bouba effect at play here or is this just a random coincidence that just so happens to be for the words for this particular abstract concept? 93.136.76.86 (talk) 18:21, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt there's any very meaningful connection, but you shouldn't leave out Hebrew "bosheth" -- some names in the Hebrew Bible have the word "bosheth" substituted for an original pagan deity name (see Ish-bosheth), while others have the vowels of "bosheth" substituted for their original vowels, which is probably why the deity whose name was originally the Semitic word for king ends up as "Molech" in the Hebrew Bible (see Moloch). AnonMoos (talk) 21:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does "bosheth" have the accent on "o"? I don't speak any Hebrew but from hearing it I thought it only had the accent on the last syllable (kind of like French). 93.142.93.173 (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At an early period (before 1,000 B.C.) Hebrew had penultimate-syllable stress, but then the word-final short inflectional vowels (what in Arabic are called i'rab) were generally deleted, so that Biblical Hebrew words came to have final-syllable stress in the majority of cases -- but by no means all. Bosheth is in fact a segholate noun, so in the singular unsuffixed form it has penultimate stress... AnonMoos (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. To the degree that French has stress, it falls on the syllable with the last NON-SCHWA VOWEL in a word (or more commonly actually on the syllable with the last non-schwa vowel in a group of words pronounced together as a closely-connected phrase), so French stress isn't always on the ultimate syllable either. AnonMoos (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One thing to think about is if such a pattern exists, whether the pattern is due to what linguists call a genetic relationship between the languages. This is not a biological relationship (like a DNA thing... it isn't that) but rather it indicates the languages are part of the same language family; thus similar patterns in such words may indicate that all of the languages descend from (for example) the Proto-Indo-European language or something like that. --Jayron 32 13:23, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well they all have different PIE roots, that was the first thing I looked at. It would have to be something older than that if that's the reason. 93.142.93.173 (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC) (OP)[reply]

If it's a "kiki-bouba" type thing or ideophone effect, then it would not necessarily have to be old (if there's any real connection at all, that is). AnonMoos (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

December 5

English variety

What variety of English (seemingly BritEng) is this pronunciation (particularly [okai] for ok, [waia] for wire, etc)? Sounds similar to Cockney, thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hear Estuary English (more northern within that dialect area; think Ricky Gervais), with maybe the slightest tinge of West Country English in some of his prosody, but it's been many years since I've been to England; maybe somebody with a better ear will hear something different.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 19:53, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds a bit like James Corden. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article and this blog post both provide some interesting background on Estuary English. Among professional linguists, I will note, the notion of Estuary English has presented something of a controversial point of discussion. --Jayron 32 20:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The accent's mangling of the t and the l are what caught my ear, reminiscent of the accent Stanley Holloway used in his portrayal of Eliza Doolittle's father (and hence, ironically, would have mangled his own name, a la Elmer Fudd). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call it "mangling". Those accents have differences from standard British English, but "mangling" is a pejorative word that implies they are trying to do something and failing. People speaking in their native dialect are not mangling anything. That dialect simply has different ways of pronouncing T and l; t being a glottal stop, known as T-glottalization, and the L shows what is called L-vocalization. These are differences from standard English, but people speaking non-Standard dialects are NOT trying to speak standard English and mangling it. They are properly speaking their own dialects. --Jayron 32 13:30, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That thing with the l's is not just a British thing. Some of my southeast coast colleagues talk that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:40, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ricky Gervais is from Reading, Berkshire. The accent that specific part of southern England (and adjacent areas) is influenced by West Country English. The OP's video includes notes stating the presenter has associations with Poole and Basingstoke, the latter only 28.6 kilometres (17.8 mi) south of Reading. More at [2]. Bazza (talk) 21:50, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note that West Country accents are in rapid decline in England, see Second-home owners are killing off Cornish accent from the press a couple of days ago. In my experience, most people in Reading and Basingstoke talk in the same London-influenced accent that you can find all over the south of England nowadays. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The loss of dialectical variety in English is a known issue on both sides of the pond. See [3] and [4] and [5]. --Jayron 32 19:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a thoroughly-assumed idea about American English for a long time, that mass media kills regional dialect. The last time I looked into it, studies were suggesting that the opposite was in fact happening--regional dialects in the US were becoming more distinct. We're more thoroughly internetified in the year 2019, though, so that may no longer be the case. I, at least, spend quite a bit of time chatting over voice and text with pals from different states and countries and it influences the way I talk. I'm sure that members of marginalized groups who must find friends online by necessity are stronger nexi of language borrowing from far-away places. (Jayron, your only source for that happening in USEng is Andrew Sullivan, who is not a linguist or anything resembling a reliable source on this topic.) Temerarius (talk) 22:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A quick Google brings up: Regional accents thrive in U.S. and America's Regional Accents, Holding Fast. Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

December 8

In this sentence, "convert" vs. "converting"

Original (source):

"Try this one instead of convert enum to int:"

Shouldn't it be the following?

"Try this one instead of converting enum to int"

What would be the argument for the correct version? And perhaps conversely, why is the other wrong? --Mortense (talk) 17:01, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the second is correct. I'm not sure that there's any simple and easy explanation as to "why", other than that construction in English takes the gerund, not the infinitive. In some contexts they're somewhat interchangeable ("Falling off a log is easy" / "To fall off a log is easy"), but in other contexts only one or the other can grammatically occur... AnonMoos (talk) 17:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could be referring to a function named "convert enum to int". Jmar67 (talk) 06:51, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtful. Bad grammar seems much more likely. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:36, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:AnonMoos is correct. "Try this one instead of converting enum to int" is correct grammar. JIP | Talk 10:03, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think AnonMoos and Jmar67 both have part of the truth here. It does seem to be discussing functions in a program. It seems to me that what was really meant was "Try this one instead. Convert enum to int." I think the author got two or more different phrasings of what they were trying to say confused and wound up typing a mishmash. --Khajidha (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the context. This is a thread concerning conversion of enum to int. The answer cited by the OP is somewhat down into the thread. Now clear to me that it should be "converting". The poster of the answer is likely not a native speaker, judging from his name. Jmar67 (talk) 05:02, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Italian / Sicilian proverb

I am looking for an Italian / Sicilian proverb. I can't seem to find anything with Google. The gist of the proverb, in English, is something like this. The proverb discusses how the length of the day (i.e., daylight hours) gradually increases during the month of December. From a certain day to another certain day, the increase is a small step, similar to "the pace of a caterpillar" (or some insect). From a certain day to another certain day, the increase is a little bit of a larger step, similar to "the pace of a dog". From a certain day to another certain day, the increase is even a little larger, similar to "the pace of a man". The "days" that are referenced in the proverb -- I believe -- are Saint Lucy's Day; maybe the "beginning of the month"; Christmas; etc. So, in English, it might go something like this. From the beginning of the month until Saint Lucy's Day, the length of the day increases in a very small increment, like the steps (pace) of a caterpillar. From Saint Lucy's Day until Christmas, the length of the day increases in a somewhat larger increment, like the steps (pace) of a dog. From Christmas until the New Year, the length of the day increases in a somewhat larger increment, like the steps (pace) of a man. That's the gist of it. I am pretty sure that the terms passu del cane (pace of the dog) and passu del uomo (pace of the man) are contained in the proverb. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:29, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As in English ("At New Year's tide, the days lengthen a cock's stride", "Days lengthen a cock's stride each day after Christmas" etc.), there are several versions in Italian, such as "Da Santa Lucia a Natale, il dì allunga un passo di cane" or, more specifically to what you asked: "Di la 'Mmaculata a Santa Lucia quantu 'n passu di cucciuvia. Di Santa Lucia a Natali quantu 'n passu di cani. Di Natali all'annu novu quantu 'n passu d'omu" (Sicilian language) = "Tra l'Immacolata e Santa Lucia il tempo è breve come il passo di un'allodola. Da Santa Lucia a Natale è quanto un passo di cane. Natale e l'anno nuovo distano quanto un passo d’uomo" (standard Italian). "Cucciuvia" and "allodola" are types of lark. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:45, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's it! Thanks so much. I had never heard of the English versions that you cited. Also, as I was reading your reply, I was all set to ask you "what do the words cucciuvia and allodola mean?" ... which you had answered, by the end of my reading your reply. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:18, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The proverb is about 4 centuries out of date, since Saint Lucy's Day no longer approximately coincides with the winter solstice after the Gregorian calendar reform... AnonMoos (talk) 23:09, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Julian or Gregorian, the length of the day does not increase every day in the Northern Hemisphere starting from the beginning of December (it decreases). The length of the day starts to increase around winter solstice (+/- one day, depending at the exact hour winter solstice happens), approximately 21st December Gregorian.

However, the time of the earliest sunset is about 7 days before winter solstice (and time of latest sunrise is about 7 days after winter solstice). Could it be about sunset (more noticable), not the day length? --Mortense (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mortense's description is correct in terms of the way we measure times of day nowadays, but if there is such a proverb, it might be older than our way of doing things. (As an example of another way, in ancient Rome an hour was 1/12 of the length of time from sunrise until sunset that day.) However, I can't think of any way that it could make sense to describe the days as getting longer in early December in the Northern Hemisphere. On the other hand, proverbs don't have to make sense: consider "Lightning never strikes twice in the same place." --142.112.159.101 (talk) 00:29, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article (Saint Lucy's Day) says: Her feast once coincided with the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year before calendar reforms, so her feast day has become a Christian festival of light. So, if Saint Lucy's Day coincided with the Winter Solstice, the proverb would make sense ... right? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:57, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish IPA

Can someone tell me how to transcribe Amanda Kernell according to our Swedish IPA key? FWIW here's her own pronunciation, though not enunciated. I presume it's something like [a¹manːda ²ɕæːɳɛlː] but I'm not sure. Nardog (talk) 22:31, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

December 9

Généalogies Commentées des Arii des Îles de la Société

Trying to understand this French source. The question I am trying to solve is if "Tefa'aora a Mai" mentioned in the book is the same person as Tefa'aora (pictured here with Mai; File:Chefs de l'Isle Borabora. (Isles de la Société) 1. Maï 2. Téffaaora (cropped).jpg). What I have gotten is that Mai III is the man pictured in the lithograph but not sure if Tefa'aora (Mai's son-in-law) is the same person as the rival/co-ruler of Mai pictured in the lithograph or a relative. Can someone skim it and help me find out more information for Template:Bora Bora family tree?

Cadousteau, Mai-Arii (1987). Généalogies Commentées des Arii des Îles de la Société. Papeete: Société des Études Océaniennes. OCLC 9510786. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help)

KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:47, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The correct link is this. Page 66 says Mai III ("the great") was both father-in-law and co-ruler with (prince of Tiipoto, p. 124) Tehuiarii a Teihotu i Marotetini alias Tefaaora a Mai (p. 125: son of Teihotu-opuhauiui i Marotetini alias Tetahio Area, married to Ahu'ura daughter of king Mai - see ch. XI, p. 61). But p. 78 also mentions Tehapai Tehuiarii Tefaaora a Mai alias Maheanu'u a Mai, married to Terii-tau-mai-te-ra'i Maheanu'u i Marotetini Tepa'u a Tati (confirmed on p. 127), who was a protestant pastor, grandson of king Mai and son of aforementioned prince Tefaaora. (p.119) Hence the possible confusion, but the short answer is yes ;-) Wakari07 (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Standard measures of dialect differentiation?

The question above about an English variety diverged into a discussion about whether accents are disappearing or getting stronger, or neither. This got me to wonder if any linguists have attempted to establish a standardized measurement system for dialectal variation? Given the large individual person's variations within the same dialect, it might be futile. What I mean is a not necessarily comparing between the various dialects of one language, that could be very hard (how do you decide if the glottal stop is a more or less important variation than "pop vs. soda"), although it would be interesting too, but since we have voice recordings dating well over 100 years, maybe someone tried doing some measurements on the same dialect, over time? Looking for references only, not opinions --Lgriot (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Between different languages, commonly-used methods are tests of mutual intelligibility and lexicostatistics (see linguistic distance), but those wouldn't be so useful for closely-similar dialects. Back in the 1980s, when there was a mini-panic about whether black and white accents of American English were diverging (see New York Times), one technique which was used was to numerically compare vowel formants of selected vowels, both between dialects and between contemporary speech and old recordings. AnonMoos (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, thanks. I can see how doing computer comparisons of digitized recorded vowel sounds would give some objective indication. I guess the same could be done on consonants, or one could count how many times "th" is pronounced identically to "d" etc. At least for one speaker vs another speaker. Then once refined, this methods could be expanded for sets of speakers (but introducing subjective grouping). Prosody could be harder. Vocabulary would hit the what is a word problem. The instances of known divergent grammatical structures like "He be" could also be counted. Any linguist ever tried to combine these into a comprehensive measure? --Lgriot (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

December 10

Irish pronunciation

Why do some Irish people pronounce the word "drink" as "thrink"? 86.187.229.140 (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, they don't. They pronounce it as "drink". But from your perspective, it apparently sounds like "thrink". Accents are difficult to describe. They are in the eye of the beholder. I have two questions. Where is your accent/version of English pronunciation from? And do you have a link to a sample of the pronunciation so we could hear what you mean? HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard of that. Maybe the OP can find a YouTube of it somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's The Irish Rovers singing about drinking. It sounds normal enough.[6] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, it's characteristic of most accents in Ireland (at least in the Republic) that "th" is usually pronounced (when speaking English) more or less as as "d" or "t": this stems from there being no "th" sound in Irish. As an example, the town in County Tipperary where I once holidayed is written as Thurles in English but written and pronounced Durlas in Irish – I have to hand the Ordnance Survey map from that holiday where both names are thus shown, as are English and Irish names for most towns.

Strange as it may seem to native speakers of English (and also Welsh and Greek), the "th" sound only exists in a minority of European languages.

(The above is only a crude overview based on my lay interest in languages – no doubt someone with considerably more linguistic expertise can give a more detailed and nuanced view.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 04:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 176: / Line 176: @@
 :Never heard of that. Maybe the OP can find a YouTube of it somewhere. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 ::Here's The Irish Rovers singing about drinking. It sounds normal enough.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XEDkVHrUWk] ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:29, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
+::In fact, it's characteristic of most accents in Ireland (at least in the Republic) that "th" is usually pronounced (when speaking English) more or less as as "d" or "t": this stems from there being ''no'' "th" sound in [[Irish language|Irish]]. As an example, the town in [[County Tipperary]] where I once holidayed is written as [[Thurles]] in English but written and pronounced Durlas in Irish – I have to hand the Ordnance Survey map from that holiday where both names are thus shown, as are English and Irish names for most towns.
+::Strange as it may seem to native speakers of English (and also Welsh and Greek), the "th" sound only exists in a minority of European languages.
+::(The above is only a crude overview based on my lay interest in languages – no doubt someone with considerably more linguistic expertise can give a more detailed and nuanced view.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/2.217.209.178|2.217.209.178]] ([[User talk:2.217.209.178|talk]]) 04:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)