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- Statements by Constitution Party
- Statements by Constitution Party


All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. --[[User:StanTheMan0131|StanTheMan0131]] ([[User talk:StanTheMan0131|talk]]) 19:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:25, 25 December 2019

Public opinion

This is basically irrelevant.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:56, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're a member of the public too, and I guess that's your opinion. This is a political article in a country where the people give power to the government. The sections is supported with RSs. Public opinion isn't the whole story, but its an important one, and will become more so if these efforts advance to the point of hearings in the house. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Impeachment will not be decided by a popular vote, so this is fairly useless information, no matter how well sourced it might be.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Says you. Sources, however, are already reporting on this subtopic. Take climate change. There, we have even split out Public opinion on climate change into an article all by itself. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:31, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Politicians care about public opinion, it helps them to make decisions. The amount of public opinion in favor of impeaching Trump has a direct effect on how likely his impeachment is. Earthscent (talk) 11:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source which says that? The Impeachment of Bill Clinton and Impeachment process against Richard Nixon do not pay a great deal of attention to opinion polls. This is a judicial process and you are saying that it's determined by opinion polls. And I'm the one accused of pushing my opinion???--Jack Upland (talk) 23:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a compromise. Trim the size of the section. Keep the table and the sourced data. Remove the prose text from the section. Sagecandor (talk) 00:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the table is the most irrelevant part. There is no point in tracking various opinion polls over time. It is not like an election campaign. Trump will not lose if the numbers go against him. A prose statement about the opinion polls might be notable. However, the prose that's there doesn't have much to do with impeachment. For example, the Muslim ban has little relation to the impeachment process. These are opinion polls conducted before any specific charges have been laid. They are really not very relevant. However, innocent people who come here seeking information get their eyes drawn to that colourful table, which gives a spurious impression of what impeachment is about. If the "Yes" column goes blue, it will not mean Trump is impeached.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How the Watergate crisis eroded public support for Richard Nixon, Pew Research Center. Sagecandor (talk) 01:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That indicates that the impeachment process influenced public opinion, not that public opinion determined the impeachment process.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:35, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Public Opinion and Nixon's Downfall, ABC News. Sagecandor (talk) 01:39, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is a short blog written by an opinion pollster that shows Nixon's popularity fell during the Watergate scandal. It doesn't say much about impeachment. Notably this states that "Much of the support for impeaching Trump comes from political considerations, the poll shows — not a belief that Trump is actually guilty of impeachable offenses, like treason, bribery or obstructing justice", which indicates those polled don't actually understand impeachment. These polls are essentially surrogates for approval ratings. Nancy Pelosi, who surely has a lot of influence over the issue, has hit out at this kind of opinion-driven push for impeachment.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:36, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And some of that would be good to cover in this section about public opinion on this topic. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:00, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Schmidt, Steffen W. (2013), American Government and Politics Today, 2013-2014 Edition, Wadsworth Publishing, p. 181, ISBN 978-1133602132, In 1974, President Richard Nixon resigned in the wake of a scandal when it was obvious that public opinion no longer supported him.
What on earth are you talking about??? Firstly, this is an article about Trump, not Nixon. Secondly, there is a plethora of analysis about the Watergate scandal, how can one sentence "settle" anything? I think the consensus is that Nixon resigned because he had lost support in Congress, including the pivotal support of Barry Goldwater.[1][2][3] Thirdly, that sentence doesn't mention impeachment. In fact, it implies that impeachment was irrelevant to his resignation. If so, what is the relevance here? Fourthly, well, I don't know what your graphics achieve...--Jack Upland (talk) 08:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gallup, George (2000), The Gallup Poll: Public Opinion 1999, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, ISBN 0842026991, This reaction is much different from the Watergate era, when President Richard Nixon was forced to resign. At that time, public confidence in the federal government, especially the executive branch, dropped significantly.
Again, what is the relevance???--Jack Upland (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The relevance, is that public opinion, is relevant here. Sagecandor (talk) 22:39, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think this discussion confirms my point, alarmingly enough. The fact that editors can suggest that Watergate was about a slide in the opinion polls, or that Trump will be impeached if the voters think he should, is deeply concerning. If that is what editors think, what are uninitiated readers going to think? High school students etc? An encyclopedia should be about conveying information, not passing on false impressions.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:37, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, this discussion does not confirm your point. Public opinion is very relevant: regardless of any crimes Trump might have committed, if public opinion is on his side then impeachment is unlikely, and if public opinion is against him then impeachment is likely. Obviously, public opinion is very relevant to this article. Earthscent (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Earthscent. Sagecandor (talk) 13:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But do you have a source that says this? No, you don't.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The sources already cited above say this. Sagecandor (talk) 21:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  1. McCarthy, Tom (May 16, 2017), "What would happen if Donald Trump were impeached?", The Guardian, Public opinion matters because for impeachment to happen, Congress must act, and elected officials sometimes hang their principles on opinion polls.
  2. England, Charlotte (November 10, 2016), "What would happen if Donald Trump was impeached?", The Independent, So the House of Representatives could turn against Mr Trump, and there could be sufficient legal grounds to impeach him. But to actually kickstart start the mechanism for removing him from office there would probably have to be a shift in public opinion.
  3. Clench, Sam (May 17, 2017), "Could Donald Trump be impeached as president?", News.com.au, But ultimately, the probability of a push for impeachment succeeding is dependent on public opinion.

Public opinion matters with regards to impeachment proceedings. This is not my opinion. This is not a personal opinion of editors on Wikipedia. This is as per multiple sources. Sagecandor (talk) 21:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for improving the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:54, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome ! Glad I was able to find the reliable sources for it ! Sagecandor (talk) 02:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is called "Efforts to impeach Donald Trump". Public opinion is NOT a part of an effort to impeach. It is a factor weighing on it. This article reads in its current configuration more like there is some sort of inevitable sequence of events leading up to impeachment. It is like there is a case that's been built. That's why "Public opinion" seems to fit here. But again, the topic is "Efforts to etc". The topic is not "The Case for Impeachment" To quote an editor of this article: "As soon an actual resolution is introduced in the House, change the title to "The impeachment process against Donald Trump." If he is then actually impeached, change it again, this time to: "The impeachment of Donald Trump." Prior to yesterday afternoon, the title being used now is just fine, and will remain so until the actions I just mentioned.Arglebargle79 (talk) 12:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The wish should not be the father of a presumably objective, encyclopedic article. Djklanker (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, even if you accept that opinion polls would play a major part in impeachment (which I don't - see above), it's hard to see how this year's opinion polls will be relevant next year. The article does read as if it's describing an inevitable series of events...--Jack Upland (talk) 17:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The article describes relevant trends in public opinion, which may have an effect on future political efforts, either spurring them on or subduing them. bd2412 T 22:39, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Equally, if America has a cold winter, it may have an effect.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:47, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We now have a year and a half of opinion polls, but no impeachment. The article currently states: "Public opinion is a key factor in impeachment proceedings as politicians including those in the House of Representatives look to opinion polls to assess the tenor of those they represent." The problem with this is that there have only been two US presidents impeached. Andrew Johnson was before opinion polls. In the case of Bill Clinton, the Democrats unexpectedly won five seats in the mid-term election just before the impeachment. Not exactly a slide in the polls. Nixon wasn't impeached, so we should hardly cite him in discussing "impeachment proceedings". None of the sources cited for this sentence actually support it. They suggest a shift in public opinion from Republican voters would be needed to get Republican representatives to move against Trump. They do not support the bald claim that "Public opinion is a key factor in impeachment proceedings". They don't really support the use of opinion polls in this article because what counts, according to their analysis, the opinion of Trump's core supporters, not the opinion nationwide.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This article reports the phenomenon of efforts to impeach, whether an impeachment ever occurs or not, just as with Efforts to impeach George W. Bush and Efforts to impeach Barack Obama. As for the opinion polls, this is not a political thinkpiece, but an encyclopedia article recounting all of the facts relevant to the topic. Some verifiably sourced information may not be useful to some readers, but may be useful to others. To the extent that some readers may want to know what public opinion polls have determined on the matter, this is useful to those readers. It is the last section of the article, so readers who are interested in any other element of the topic will reach it before they get to this section. bd2412 T 22:38, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Opinion polls are somewhat informative, but we are reporting an excess of polls. This is not an election page. I would remove the long table of polls, and just cite a few significant polls, in context of contemporary events, i.e. Comey's dismissal. — JFG talk 07:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, Sagecandor has since been impeached as a sock.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Public opinion on impeachment

An IP editor has removed — and I have restored — a well-sourced summary on public opinion polls relating to impeachment. Contrary to the IP editor's assertion that PPP is a "partisan" polling firm, 538's objective pollster rankings (based on pollster accuracy, see methodology) gives PPP a "B+" rating and actually indicates a very slight Republican lean (with a "mean-reverted bias" of R+0.2).

Because this material is well-sourced and longstanding, and violates no policy, consensus should be obtained prior to removing this content. Neutralitytalk 04:07, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with the restoration of this material, which is appropriate to include and consistent with other articles addressing such impeachment efforts. Readers are able to jump right to the articles on the polling companies themselves to determine if they have a reputation for leaning one way or the other. bd2412 T 12:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fine to keep this content. — JFG talk 13:05, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think opinion polls are given undue weight here - see above. They could be summed up in a few lines. We do not need a summary of every opinion poll. This adds nothing to the article and gives the misleading impression that impeachment will be decided by opinion polls. It would be more instructive to talk about the opinions of members of Congress.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:36, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with that. Tables of polls should be removed, and a couple polls should be cited, in context of events leading to those polls (i.e. after the Comey dismissal). — JFG talk 07:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the tables of polls, leaving the commentary on significant polls. Given the discussion here and above, and the fact that Sagecandor has been banned as a sock puppet, I think there is a consensus against the tables.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting: a proposal for the new year

I am running this up the flagpole in order to get consensus as to what should be done to this article next month. I'm am not saying that we do anything NOW. Nadler has said that there will be hearings on the Stormy Daniels payments and other scandals that are mucking up cable news. Maxine Waters and a number of other congresscritters have said that they would introduce resolutions, and these are almost always these are referred to Nadler's Judiciary Committee. Sooooooo....

What I suggest we do, when the time comes, in about 20 days or so, we split this article in two: The first will be this one we already have which would be moved to: Efforts to Impeach Donald Trump: 2016-2018. The second will be Impeachment process of Donald Trump, which would cover the Nadler and Shiff hearings. These will be public spectacles of the first order and will definitely require their own articles.

We need a plan as to how to go about this, NOW. This is in order to make everything easier when the poo hits the fan in the coming year. Arglebargle79 (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thatotherdude, did you miss a "no" from that sentence?--Jack Upland (talk) 23:41, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Jack Upland, thanks for catching my typo. Correction made.--Thatotherdude (talk) 01:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there are a bunch of articles on the Watergate scandal as well, so many in fact there's an index on the top right hand corner of the article.

The article this is the talk page for is clearly part of the resistance movement. None of the congressional actions had a chance and they knew it. The street protests and the municipal resolutions are fun, but they were never more than screams of anger that were ends unto themselves.

With the House turning Democratic in only 17 days, and with the incoming chairman of the House Judiciary committee promising hearings on the Stormy Daniels affair before Michael Cohen goes to the pokey in March, we need to talk about this NOW for action in Mid to late January so it is done with efficiency and panache. Arglebargle79 (talk) 14:37, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Arglebargle79, what do you mean, "The article...is clearly part of the resistance movement"???--Jack Upland (talk) 18:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • See the article on Protests against Donald Trump. The 'resistance' is what this movement calls itself. Most of the article that this is the talk page for is about publicity stunts. Tom Styer's commercials, for example, he may have wished the REPUBLICAN House of Representatives would impeach him, but he knew it wouldn't happen. The Marches and municipal resolutions aren't really serious, just a way to blow up steam.

*Don't Split Splitting tends to obfuscate information by making a reader follow paths for continuity. If there is a fork that needs to be covered, build a sidebar article. If it becomes dominant under its own right, then it will obviously become a significant fork that will necessarily split off information. Let this occur naturally, don't force it. Trackinfo (talk) 09:53, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at simlar articles, and with the exceptions of Ford and Carter, there have been efforts to impeach every president since LBJ. If you look at the "efforts to impeach" articles, they are rather lengthy and focus on one or two incidents. Hearings about Dick Cheney, for example, were conducted by Democrats and were informal and unauthorized. There was a hearing about Obama, and this was mostly a bunch of Congressmembers popping off and wasn't a serious effort. What happened in congress re: Trump this year and last was pretty much the same thing. If we need a sidebar article (and we will, but that's going to be in January) what will we call it? There are going to be several sets of hearings, both on the Stormy Daniels mess and the Russian investigation, not to mention other issues. All I'm saying is now's the time to think about it. Arglebargle79 (talk) 14:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There already seems to be a consensus that we don't need, and won't need, another article, which would include "a sidebar article". If there is a specific independent event that draws its own distinct widespread coverage in reliable sources, we can create an article on such an event once it happens, but we can not possibly predict at this point what form such an event will take. bd2412 T 17:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The first impeachment-related hearing is taking place in ten minutes. When it is over, I'd like to reconsider the subject.Arglebargle79 (talk) 14:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Congressman Schiff's response to recent Buzzfeed report

In his most recent set of statements, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff seems to have indicated that if true, the claims outlined in the recent Buzzfeed report are true, they would constitute "both the subornation of perjury as well as obstruction of justice", which are impeachable offences. Numerous legal experts and other congresspeople are also providing commentary that this is impeachable.

Does the report, and the subsequent response from Schiff, warrant inclusion in this article? Looking to achieve some form of consensus considering the controversial subject matter. FlipandFlopped ツ 17:15, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Listing the Various Reasons (Crimes and Misdemeanors) for Impeaching President Trump

To keep track of the many developments [circa March2019], we need a list of alleged crimes of President Trump. In science, there are lists so that people can see what work areas are related. Examples include:

Similarly, we US Citizens (and the changes must be made only by US Citizens) need to have a list that people can unambiguously refer to. For instance, some people might say: there is no evidence of Russian collusion with Republicans, or with Trump's administration, or with Trump personally. Note the tighter restrictions on the evidence envelope from half the population, to a few hundred, to one person. This list would be a framework for seeking answers to what and how

  • felonies,
  • charges,
  • misdemeanors,
  • accusations

there are (a suggested ordering in terms of severity, but I'm not a lawyer: I know a felony is worse than a misdemeanor...). This "Listing the Various Reasons (Crimes and Misdemeanors) for Impeaching President Trump" would be a curated living document, where items would move up the list as news becomes available, e.g.

The Constitution says, "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors". I think it's unclear what this means. We do have a High crimes and misdemeanors article which gives some detail. However, this is largely just opinion. There isn't some authoritative source to tell us what the phrase means, and there have been only two Presidents impeached and neither of them were convicted, so there isn't much precedent. Andrew Johnson was impeached for a range of things. Clinton was impeached for obstruction of justice. Nixon would have been impeached for obstruction of juctice, abuse of power, and contempt of Congress. But there's nothing much to guide the House of Representatives on how to vote.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead needs a rebuild

I have just removed one sentence that cited a source from October 2017 to comment on events of 2018. All of the sources are from 2017, with the exception of reference used for the final sentence — and the note about the 25th Amendment (nb 1). This note has basically nothing to do with the sentence it is attached to. That sentence predicts what will happen in 2017 and 2018, which is now stale. The note has no reason to be in the lead. If it is not mentioned in the body, then it should be removed. The rest of the lead should be updated to reflect the current situation. We don't need sources if we're just summarising the body of the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed nb 1.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:37, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I removed this: "Other people and groups have asserted that Donald Trump has engaged in impeachable activity during his presidency", but it was restored. It cites two sources from January 2017!!! That's hardly representative of Trump's presidency. Also, my reference to Mueller was removed as "undue", even though his investigation plays a large role in this article.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article isn't titled Efforts to impeach Donald Trump after 2018. It covers the whole of the topic, as it should. Reliable sources reported opinions favoring impeachment on specific grounds early on in Trump's presidency, a fact that does not evaporate with the passage of time. Furthermore, certain specific assertions of impeachable offenses, such as alleged violation of the Foreign Emoluments Clause, continue to be discussed, investigated, and litigated now. Note that specific articles of impeachment have been offered by members of Congress with respect to a variety of asserted grounds. With respect to Mueller specifically, that investigation is only one element of the ongoing investigation of the alleged influence of Russia on Trump. We should be very careful to avoid giving the misleading impression that impeachment hinges on that specific investigation, and the specific matters that it addressed. bd2412 T 19:47, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence, "Other people and groups have asserted that Donald Trump has engaged in impeachable activity during his presidency" can't be verified by sources in January 2017. I suggest the citations be removed because there is no need to have them in the lead.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:10, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Structure

The structure could be improved. It consists of two timelines, plus a number of small sections which could be integrated into the timelines.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:13, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've joined the two timelines. The bulleted lists should be converted into prose, and the timeline should have more meaningful headings.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:55, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mueller! Mueller!

Now that the Mueller report has been handed in, it is clear that this is a very misleading article. It should be cut down to size and only retain relevant information. People coming here want to know what is happening (or not happening) with the impeachment of Trump. Most of this article is a breathless countdown to nothing in particular, with loads of unhelpful commentary.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sater is going still testify. There's going to be a bunch of impeachment related investigations in Congress, as the Meuller report punted on the question of obstruction. The show goes on. Arglebargle79 (talk) 18:26, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's no show. The article can include Sater when he testifies. This is beginning to resemble a hunt for an orange whale. The article can't document something until it happens. It doesn't seem that the Mueller inquiry has got us any closer to impeachment. It's almost April. Any impeachment process started now will run into the presidential election. There's really no point in impeaching Trump if they can just vote him out. Realistically, then, any impeachment will have to wait to 2121 or later.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Proceedings in the impeachment of Bill Clinton began shortly after the 1998 mid-term election, which was on November 3, 1998, and which followed issuance of the Starr Report on September 11, 1998. Clinton was actually impeached on December 19, 1998. The trial in the Senate lasted five weeks, from January 7, 1999 until Clinton's acquittal in the Senate on February 12, 1999. That's about three months from the time the gears started turning in the House to the final resolution of the matter in the Senate. At that pace, an impeachment process started now would run until around the July 4th long weekend. bd2412 T 20:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's five months from the date of the report. And the Starr Report outlined 11 counts for impeachment, while Mueller apparently gave none. By contrast, the Senate Watergate Committee was formed on 7 February 1973 and reported 27 June 1974 — and Nixon wasn't impeached. Of course, it could be quicker than any of that, but it's hard to see the impeachment process starting soon. Potential Democratic candidates have already started campaigning, and the Democrats apparently plan to have debates in June. It's highly unlikely that impeachment will occur before the next election. See the second paragraph of this news report. But that's beside the point. If it happens, we record it. If it doesn't, we don't. This article reads like the diary of a political Captain Ahab. The orange whale is always just over the horizon...--Jack Upland (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the forum for speculation on whether the timeline of impeachment would be particularly extended. Of course, if there is a reliable source speculating that any impeachment process started now will run into the presidential election, we can include that. bd2412 T 20:08, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I gave a source, and here are more:[4][5][6]. The problem is that if it is true that there won't be an impeachment before 2021, then this article is going into a long tunnel in which there is no need to "update" it. For example, Sater's testimony has no particular notability. Maybe it will be picked up on in two or three years' time, but that can be documented then. It's like the countdown to a rocket launch when we've just heard that the rocket won't be launched till 2021, if ever. There's no point in saying: 3, 2.99999, 2.99998, 2.99997... These are not truly "efforts to impeach" if there is no real possibility of impeaching this year or next. It is strange that you complain about speculation when this whole article is speculative. This article should concentrate on what has happened, as I've said before. I take it you agree with my basic point.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article is, of course, not on impeachment, but on efforts to impeach - in this regard it is no different from Efforts to impeach George W. Bush and Efforts to impeach Barack Obama. Such efforts seem to exist for every president since Clinton. bd2412 T 11:34, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Those two articles are completely different. They list discrete efforts or calls for impeachment. This article lists a long sequence of events that have led nowhere. That is why I propose to change this article. Firstly, it should be closer to those articles you have cited. It should concentrate on specific efforts to impeach Trump, rather than an inconclusive narrative. Secondly, there should be an overview which explains the mechanics of an impeachment process in relation to Trump. Yes, we have an article about impeachment, but it would be helpful to have a summary here, which is related to the current facts. This would be a far more informative article.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:25, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is an interesting point - in this case, there have been discrete efforts or calls for impeachment, but the article does not fully list them. For example, "Opinion: The Founding Fathers would have impeached corrupt Trump in a New York minute" (August 13, 2018), proposes that Trump should be impeached for violating the Emoluments Clause and profiting from foreign dignitaries patronizing his businesses with the expectation of being given special consideration for so doing. bd2412 T 13:07, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I take that back in part. The article does list a variety of potential grounds for impeachment. The alleged Emoluments Clause violation is noted in the first paragraph of the body. The actual resolution for impeachment brought on December 6, 2017, was for "Associating the Presidency with White Nationalism, Neo-Nazism and Hatred" and "Inciting Hatred and Hostility". bd2412 T 13:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have to take exception to the "Nixon was never impeached" comment. It passed out of committee and then he resigned. That's a successful impeachment process. The current impeachment process, should it start, will officially start as early as tomorrow, when there's a conference call on the subject. If they say "no," that's one thing, but if they say "yes" or "maybe" is a totally different animal entirely. But that's tomorrow, and if they decide to go ahead, i suggest we do a split. Arglebargle79 (talk) 23:08, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think the article should be split this time?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:34, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, there are one of three ways it could go. The first is to drop it. Then a split would be unwarranted. Second, an agreement to hold a bunch of hearings with impeachment to be discussed later, at that point, a discussion on the subject could be postponed here. However, if option 3, a formal impeachment inquiry is agreed to, then we MUST split.

The reason why is simple: There will be hearings and lawsuits galore. There's obstruction of justice, collusion, and emoluments. not to mention general corruption. So we should have "efforts to Impeach...2017-18", which will include all the symbolic venting and those failed resolutions. Stuff even the people who did them knew would result in nothing. Then there would be "the impeachment process of Donald Trump" which would start out with the Cohen hearings and then the Meuller report and the reactions to same. Then following the conference call (which is this afternoon), what happens with the whole mishegas. Remember, the "impeachment process of Lyndon Johnson" consisted of one resolution by Bella Abzug in 1968. It doesn't require or deserve a separate article. A vote to start the formal process requires a new article. Hence a split.Arglebargle79 (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We had a similar discussion in December, and there was no consensus to split. If there is a vote for impeachment, there is an argument to have a new article. However, there is an argument that this article could be used a background. And there is an argument we shouldn't have two separate articles, "Efforts to impeach" and the "Impeachment of", because that would be confusing. However, you need to get consensus when it happens.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest retitling this section at this point, as readers visiting this talk page for the first time might read "Mueller! Mueller!" as a call, in Wikipedia's voice, for Mueller's testimony before Congress. bd2412 T 14:42, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. That was funny on my watchlist!
There was no need to do that.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:35, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The header as written sounds like cheerleading for impeachment, which is something we don't do here. bd2412 T 00:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't edit other editors' comments. The fact that you believe the heading could be misinterpreted is irrelevant. Any reader can see that my initial comment wasn't a call for Mueller to testify. (It was actually a reference to the film, Ferris Beuller's Day Off.) My original post had nothing to do with a "possible course of events". In any case, the issues of neutrality and "Wikipedia's voice" don't apply to a talk page. Ironically, I am the one editor here who hasn't been a cheerleader.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let me suggest, then, that perhaps your section headers should not be jokes obscurely based on movie references. Clearly, these could easily be misinterpreted to mean the opposite of what you would interpret them to mean. This comes close to being a WP:NOTAFORUM issue. It also somewhat odd that you perceive yourself as "the one editor here who hasn't been a cheerleader". There is not a single editor here who has expressed an opinion on whether Trump should or should not be impeached. We are, however, documenting the public efforts by those who are expressing such an opinion, whichever side of the political aisle they may fall on. bd2412 T 14:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My original comment was clearly about improving the article; it was not a discussion of the topic. The only rule that has been broken was by you when you edited my words.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful with your accusations. I have not edited your words at all. bd2412 T 20:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
True. I missed that.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:45, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions that Trump favors impeachment

A number of sources have suggested that Trump wants to be impeached in order to gain a perceived political advantage from a backlash by his supporters, and that he and his political surrogates are doing things to encourage his impeachment for this reason. Should this be mentioned in the article? See Politico, "Impeachment? This Is the Fight Trump Wants"; New York Times, "A Strategy Emerges to Counter House Democrats: Dare Them to Impeach"; CNN, "Burnett: Trump wants an impeachment fight"; CNBC, "Nancy Pelosi: Trump is ‘goading’ Democrats to impeach him to solidify his base". bd2412 T 21:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The first article says: "No one enjoys getting impeached, and if it happens to him, Donald J. Trump will be no exception." The argument is very nuanced. Then there's the issue of weight. There are copious opinions about Trump and what he's thinking. Ideally, the article should provide a range.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:51, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. I will work on some language. bd2412 T 14:25, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Amash

Should Rep. Justin Amash's support for impeachment be mentioned, as the first House Republican to call for it? [7] 331dot (talk) 08:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:22, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's pretty relevant tot he subject of the article.- MrX 🖋 11:08, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have mentioned the support of "one Republican" in both the lead and the "commentary" section, but without naming him. I don't oppose naming him if people think it is relevant. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:10, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Amash and Carlos Curbello are both mentioned by name in an earlier section as Republicans favorable to impeachment. bd2412 T 17:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

this is somewhat relevent

This is a link to an article in Slate about Wikipedia and Trump. Normally, something like this wouldn't belong on this page, but the article is very instructive as to what our work is here. Arglebargle79 (talk) 10:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Support" list

User:KingOpti101 added a section with an itemized list - a good faith and carefully sourced list - of members of Congress who “support”. But what they support is unclear. An investigation? Actual impeachment? Something more nuanced? And do we really want to maintain a daily a list of everyone who takes a position on this? Would we also need a list of people who have opposed in some fashion? I think we should not try to do this kind of scorekeeping, and I have removed it pending discussion here. What do others think? -- MelanieN (talk) 19:59, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • My sense is that such a list, if created, would shortly need to be broken out into a separate article. If we list those who have explicitly supported impeachment, we should also list those who have explicitly opposed it, or said that they have not yet formed an opinion on it. bd2412 T 21:55, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article is a slow motion train wreck, and the best improvement would be WP:TNT. No, a list of supporters is not a good idea. It's not just a question of what they support. When did they express their support? Under what conditions? I don't think that Pelosi (for example) has ruled out impeachment under any circumstances. Impeachment when? Before the election or after the election if Trump is re-elected? Impeachment as a pipe dream or a plan of action? It's too nuanced. If there was a source which said that in June 2019 14.5 Democrats and 1 Republican supported impeachment, 7 were undecided, and 12 didn't know what impeachment was, then that would be worth including somewhere in this pig's breakfast.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which Congresspeople and Senators support(and oppose) impeachment is certainly worthy of inclusion, as it's one piece of information readers will come here looking for. We don't need to give a full accounting of the date, time, place, and rationale for doing so, that's what the sources are for, as well as the articles about the individual politicians. This is no different than including endorsement lists on articles about elections. It eventually might need to be a separate article, but it could be started here. I agree that it could be broken down into support for impeachment, support for an impeachment inquiry, those on record as having no opinion, and those opposed. 331dot (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For example, Pelosi has now said that she doesn't want to impeach Trump, she wants to put him in jail. How do you deal with that?--Jack Upland (talk) 21:08, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite or strike down

This article amounts to opinion. There are some facts, but whole this is an opinion piece. Strike this article, or rewrite. Don't make me log in or I have this article struck down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.235.215.169 (talk • contribs)

IP sockpuppetry, then? bd2412 T 02:13, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The timeline needs to be rewritten.Theoallen1 (talk) 04:34, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would support a total rewrite.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:25, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From what I've been seeing on media, the impeachment effort has been losing steam. GoodDay (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would disagree. The numbers supporting an inquiry is growing among Democrats.Theoallen1 (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except this happened five days ago. soibangla (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I've heard this chorus for the last year. "This just happened!" "Someone's passing a motion in the next room!" "The donkeys are restless!" In the end we have to document what has happened, not what we're wishing and hoping and hoping and wishing will happen. As previously discussed, with the presidential election campaign in full swing, it is unlikely that anyone would initiate an impeachment process. As it stands, the article is just a complete mess, reading like the incoherent diary of a political Captain Ahab hell-bent on harpooning that orange whale. Anyone coming here for a neutral overview of the situation would be sorely disappointed.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:49, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IT's time to split the article in two

Over the last couple of days, Rep.Jerry Nadler announced both on television and in court that impeachment proceedings have indeed begun. Let me repeat that: The Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee has announced Publicly that impeachment proceedings have already begun. Therefore, we need to split this article in two. The first one will basically be this one. The second will be what happens after Nadler's announcement. I'll wait a couple of days for consensus, then, if there's no torrent of objections, I'll do it. Arglebargle79 (talk) 11:49, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. This is getting more and more silly. There is no impeachment proceeding. People are just talking about it, as they have since Trump won the election. You argued for a split back in December and got no consensus, and now you're raising the issue again. The best thing to do would be to improve this article. If this article gets too large, then it can be split. There is no point in splitting the article in the hope that Jerry Nadler will be the new Felix Sater.--Jack Upland (talk) 13:50, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see, there are lawsuits and hearings scheduled. The CHAIRMAN of the house JUDICIARY COMMITTEE says they are, so they are. Last December the Republicans controlled congress. Things change.Arglebargle79 (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When the formal proceedings for the official impeachment process begin, you are welcome to split that off. We will probably have a House side and possibly if they go forward, a Senate side. There might be a lot of sidebars. Since they have not yet begun under that label, there is nothing to split off yet. Trackinfo (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nadler is saying this to bolster his legal cases to obtain testimony and documents through courts enforcing subpoenas from his committee. It doesn't mean that anything has changed. 331dot (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IT's time to split the article in two (Part two)

For all of you deniers out there, Politico just reported that The House Judiciary Committee is going to vote on an impeachment resolution on Wednesday. It will define the parameters of the inquiry in a similar fashion as to the ones against Nixon in 1974 and Clinton in 1998. The link is in the main article. This isn't me crying wolf either. I wasn't the first two times.Arglebargle79 (talk) 19:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see a reason to split the article. All of that is still accurately captured under the heading of efforts to impeach. Until a vote on the House floor culminates in impeachment, all we have are efforts towards that end. bd2412 T 22:42, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I also think the wrong link has been put into the article, and the sentence about Politico is garbled.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:27, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am wondering when we will get to the point that this be renamed to "Impeachment process against Donald Trump", a al Impeachment process against Richard Nixon. 331dot (talk) 10:09, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps when it is widely known by that name. bd2412 T 13:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The reason we should split the article is that prior to last January, there were no serious attempts by anyone, except maybe Tom Styer, who spent tons of money on the effort, to impeach the president. The municipal resolutions and such were just protests against what they saw were malfeasance. There were EFFORTS, but not any serious ones. Starting in January, there were actual hearings, some were by the "wrong" committee, i.e. Oversight's Cohen hearings. There was also pushback and lawsuits, something that didn't happen in 2017-18 because the House was in Republican hands. There was an actual, serious debate on the subject. The vote in two days is fundamentally different than marches and the municipal resolutions, as this represents a formalized impeachment proceeding (please remember that the proceedings against Nixon and Clinton were never called an "impeachment process" by anyone outside of Wikipedia) that will include hearings with all the bells and whistles. There were months of these in 1974 and, I believe two days worth in 1998.

So we need three articles. One on the hoopla by the so-called resistance in the first two years of the term. One on the investigations by various committees in the House, and then on the formal impeachment proceeding that is going to be voted on the day after tomorrow. Arglebargle79 (talk) 17:28, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no consensus on splitting the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well we definitely don't need three articles. At the moment, any House member can call these proceedings whatever they want to appease their constituents. Nothing of formal substance towards an actual impeachment has happened. bd2412 T 13:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except that the Judiciary Committee voted to define the parameters of their investigation/inquiry/whatever they call it. [8]. 331dot (talk) 13:05, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So what?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:22, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Please don't split the article. The scroll bar of the immense size of this compared to every other US president and the bias shown is a good example that's being used in memes to wake people up. 121.210.33.50 (talk) 06:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Democrats don't seem to be sure

Democrats in the House, appear to disagree on whether it's an impeachment inquiry. GoodDay (talk) 10:31, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

to paraphrase Jerry Ford:an impeachment proceeding is anything a majority of the House judiciary committee says it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.61.179.3 (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nadler said: "This Committee is engaged in an investigation that will allow us to determine whether to recommend articles of impeachment with respect to President Trump. Some call this process an impeachment inquiry. Some call it an impeachment investigation. There is no legal difference between these terms, and I no longer care to argue about the nomenclature" [9]. It doesn't seem that there is any agreement on what to call it. It is clearly worth documenting here.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

2019 Trump-Ukraine controversy

We need to figure out how best to include the 2019 Trump-Ukraine controversy into this article, as it has already been raised as a possible grounds for impeachment, including by Democrats previously unwilling to consider that route, and some anti-Trump Republicans. bd2412 T 22:38, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeedie! Pelosi has "caved" and at four this afternoon, there's going to be a meeting to ratify what the rules committee is planning to vote on to have a select committee to take impeachment away from Nadler. I suggest (although when has anyone on this page agreed to my suggestions?), that when the vote is finally taken we change the Ukraine controversy article and change it to "The impeachment process of Donald Trump" and split this one into Efforts...Trump (2016-18), and Efforts....2019. Like I said, the straw has broken the camel's back and things are going fast and furious, now. Arglebargle79 (talk) 19:40, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. A select committee being created makes this clear. 331dot (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Arglebargle79, the reason other people don't listen to you is that you have said that things are fast and furious now multiple times. Until there is a vote for impeachment, all we have are efforts to impeach Trump, and some vaguely connected events that have been scraped into this article. There is no need at the moment to split the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We call Impeachment process against Richard Nixon what it is called, and that was nothing more than an "effort" since it did not get to a full House vote. What's different about this case, and at what point do we rename this article, if not now? 331dot (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At this moment MSNBC, CNN, and even Fox News have large one-inch type headlines on my screen referring to this impeachment inquiry. 331dot (talk) 21:51, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Someone has created Impeachment of Donald Trump. 331dot (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which is good. IT should be called the "impeachment process" but that's a discussion for another page. Right now, we should start working how to complete this article here, as the "efforts" phase has been completed. Arglebargle79 (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I still consider it premature to talk about an "Impeachment of" phase. bd2412 T 23:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Impeachment process against Richard Nixon is probably a bad choice of title. However, in Nixon's case, articles of impeachment had been reported to the House. Knowing the numbers were against him, he resigned. That article was written with hindsight. In Trump's case, we don't know what's going to happen. Many people assumed that Mueller's report would lead to impeachment. Given there's now an article Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump, there's no need to rename or split this one.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:06, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bulleted timelines

Is there any reason why this article includes a series of bulleted timelines written in the present tense?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:13, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:07, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Complicit with"

"Emoluments Clause and the other being complicity with... " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.27.53 (talk) 09:35, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rename, merge, delete?

Should this be renamed since it barely deals with the successful effort to impeach him? Or should it be merged with another article? Are there any section that are obsolete and should now be deleted?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • All prior unsuccessful efforts are still efforts that are part of the historical record. I wouldn't rename or remove. This is parallel to the articles on efforts to impeach presidents for whom those efforts were undertaken but did not succeed. BD2412 T 05:24, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but in this case the effort was successful. There is no parallel. Perhaps we should rename it to "Preliminary efforts...".--Jack Upland (talk) 06:19, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think people will understand from the current title that these were efforts that preceded the ostensibly successful one (although there remains some question over whether an "impeachment" has occurred absent the articles being conveyed to the Senate). BD2412 T 06:39, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Timeline of Donald Trump impeachment and format it as a timeline (which it already partially is). Eliminate most or all of the textual material, including the information about the previous unsuccessful attempts at impeachment; all of this is already covered in one or more of the three existing articles about his impeachment. This would leave a timeline which could be very valuable in tying the whole matter together - particularly helpful since the current impeachment is scattered among three articles. Thanks for suggesting this, Jack Upland. The last thing we need is yet a fourth article, completely duplicating material which is covered in the other three. -- MelanieN (talk) 06:59, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. If this option receives consensus, I volunteer to help convert the article into timeline format. -- MelanieN (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN:, please note that this is not "yet a fourth article"; this is the first article that was created on this topic, and the other articles are content forks of this one. If anything needs to be altered, it is the later articles which copied the existing content from this article. BD2412 T 14:24, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you, BD. This article was the first on the subject and is the oldest. You started it way back in 2016. But we should decide how to handle this subject based on what would be best for the encyclopedia’s treatment of the subject, not on temporal priority. I have opposed the proliferation of articles covering this one subject, and I hope one day to be able to merge the other three into a single article "Impeachment of Donald Trump". But I have also said all along that a timeline type article about impeachment would be a good thing to have. This article IMO serves no current purpose as prose coverage of the impeachment - for better or worse it has been overtaken and displaced by more recently created articles. But is already halfway to being the timeline article that we need. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:28, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Alternately, we could rename it something like Other efforts to impeach Donald Trump and strip down to a "see also" anything having to with the Ukraine matter. BD2412 T 16:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But really this article is not about "other efforts". As discussed previously, this article is basically a countdown to impeachment. So a timeline would work well.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:12, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Timeline: MelanieN, this is a brilliant idea! It deals with the issue I have raised, and it also deals with the long-running problem of the way the article is written. It would take a massive effort to turn this article into encyclopedic prose; it would be relatively easy to convert it into a timeline. And the article would have a coherent purpose. Brilliant!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 07:26, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not rename or remove. All prior unsuccessful efforts are history in their own right. The Mueller investigation and other events should not be erased by the most recent story, they should be in this separate article. And Im thinking that when (if) this latest one is dismissed, there will still be the possibility (liklihood) of yet more. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on modifying the 'commentary & opinion' section

Under the 4th Section of this article, Commentary & Opinion, there is a subsection titled 'Statements by Democrats'. There is no other subsection for any other political party (i.e. Libertarian, Republican, etc.) I propose we either wipe the 'Statements by Democrats' section completely, or we add more titles to include ALL political parties in the United States:

- Statements by Republicans - Statements by Libertarians - Statements by Green Party - Statements by Constitution Party

All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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