Talk:Nevillean theory of Shakespeare authorship

Sources that help establish notability and should be incorporated for neutrality

• Hope, Warren; Holston, Kim (2009). The Shakespeare Controversy: An Analysis of the Authorship Theories (2nd. ed.). McFarland. pp. 128-129. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

• Edmondson, Paul; Wells, Stanley (2013). Shakespeare Beyond Doubt: Evidence, Argument, Controversy. Cambridge UP. pp. 54-60. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

• Carnegie, David; Taylor, Gary (2012). The Quest for Cardenio: Shakespeare, Fletcher, Cervantes, and the Lost Play. Oxford UP. pp. 67-69. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Two of these I found accidentally while trying to find anything else by the publisher of The Truth Will Out, so I'm curious as to why they haven't appeared yet. @RalphWinwood: how did you not find these? Or if you did, why did you not incorporate them? Ian.thomson (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for deletion of sentence

Though this is properly sourced, it is false; there is no actual documentary evidence to support this assertion: As a boy, Neville was educated within the household of Sir William Cecil, Lord Burghley.[7]

I propose deleting it unless someone knows of an independent documentary source that suggests that this is correct. Perhaps someone can give me guidance in how to properly resolve an issue such as this.

Kfein (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I deleted the two references. It should be added back only if an independent source can be found that refers to primary documentary evidence supporting this assertion. Kfein (talk) 07:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for modifying initial paragraphs

I do not think we need to go into detail on the code evidence in the introductory paragraph. It is enough to mention the initial discovery. Then the code evidence can be combined into its own separate section of the article. This will make it read better and allow the article to put more details to the forefront. Kfein (talk) 00:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I moved it to the code section.Kfein (talk) 04:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Clarifying who is meant by "Shakespeare"

This small amendent was originally made on 22nd Oct as part of a larger edit, which was reverted by Kfein on 23rd. I should have done it as a separate edit, because there is a good reason for amending the wording. In the SAQ “Shakespeare” is used as the name of the author but is non-specific as a reference to a living person, since his identity is what is in dispute. My amendment clarifies which living person is meant. Terpsichore47 (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree the article should be as unambiguous as possible. Thank you for this edit! Kfein (talk) 05:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Extending quote and citing source for its implications

My revisions/additions to this passage made on 22 Oct were undone by Kfein on the grounds that it was “unsourced original research”. However, the existing version could be subject to the same action, since unsourced original research is exactly what it was before I touched it. If any use has been made of Jonson’s Epigram 109 in extant sources for the purposes of arguing Neville’s authorship, those sources were not cited. In my new revision, I’ve done three things. First, I’ve found and cited a source. Second, in the unrevised text of the article the idea that Epigram 109 refers to Neville’s poetic muse, not Jonson’s, is merely covert. But the source’s claim is explicit, and I’ve worded my revision to make that clear. Finally, I’ve extended the quotation from the epigram. The first line is only a fragment of a complete statement covering three lines. Quoting all three puts readers in a better position to decide for themselves whose poetic muse is being referred to.Terpsichore47 (talk) 10:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Kfein (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

What do you think about adding in a link to the whole epigram? https://books.google.com/books?id=2J1TAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false This source has some background info as well. Kfein (talk) 04:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for adding a section on the Northumberland Manuscript Flyleaf

I propose adding a section on the Northumberland Manuscript Flyleaf. I know it is mentioned in The Truth Will Out. And this source from John Casson is relevant: http://www.bl.uk/eblj/2018articles/pdf/ebljarticle112018.pdf

And this book is relevant: https://archive.org/details/cu31924013117480/

Does anyone know any other good reference sources about the document in general or its connection to Henry Neville? Kfein (talk) 04:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

This seems relevant: https://lostplays.folger.edu/Asmund_and_CorneliaKfein (talk) 03:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for adding information on the dedication of A King and No King

This source has a lot of information on Henry Neville's connection with 'A King and No King' Lesser, Zachary. “Mixed Government and Mixed Marriage in ‘A King and No King’: Sir Henry Neville Reads Beaumont and Fletcher.” ELH, vol. 69, no. 4, 2002, pp. 947–977. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30032051.

The dedication can be seen here and is in the public domain: https://archive.org/details/kingnokingacteda00beau_1/page/n7

I suggest we upload the image and include it in the article with information taken from Lesser's article. Casson and Rubinstein also reference this, is it referenced in other books about Neville?

Kfein (talk) 04:41, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Found a new RS about Neville books at Audley End

The sidebar of this: https://exhibitions.lib.cam.ac.uk/hoby/

Has:

Hoby’s books came to be at Audley End because of his connection with the Neville family, who owned a house in Berkshire called Billingbear. Hoby’s family seat was also in Berkshire, at Bisham Abbey, a property which he inherited on the death of his half-brother, Sir Philip Hoby, in 1558. At some point, Hoby’s books were moved the short distance from Bisham Abbey to Billingbear, and then, once its owner, Richard Aldworth Neville (1750–1825), second Lord Braybrooke, had inherited Audley End in 1802, they were taken across to Essex.

Kfein (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of sources for this page

I have posted a question about the sources used for this article at the Wikipedia reliable sources noticeboard. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Stuart Kells recent book Shakespeare's Library: Unlocking the Greatest Mystery in Literature has a great deal on the Nevillean theory that would be a good source to start with to update the article.Kfein (talk) 01:57, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good source that passes WP:RS. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• Noticed this at WP:RS/N. There is way too much fringe sourcing here and so I'm placing a POV tag until the article can be rebuilt with decent sources. Alexbrn (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Additional Possible Sources

• https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/05/shakespeare-himself-may-have-annotated-hamlet-book-claims-researcher
• Stuart Kells - Shakespeare's Library: Unlocking the Greatest Mystery in Literature
• https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244018823465
• Birmingham Post: Book claims to have found the Bard's lost works March 18, 2009
• The Western Mail: Did he or didn't he? That is the question October 6, 2009 | Western Mail (Cardiff, Wales) Author: Tony Woolway
• Yorkshire Post: 'Earliest Shakespeare plays' claim by author March 18, 2009 | Yorkshire Post (England)

This is apparently not a RS: Bard blood between the Princes April 28, 2014 | Courier Mail, The/Sunday Mail, The/QWeekend Magazine (Brisbane, Australia) Author: DAILY MAIL | Page: 14 Kfein (talk) 04:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of content

@RalphWinwood: you are removing[1] well-sourced content with no edit summary. What's going on? Alexbrn (talk) 13:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexbrn: No Alex. YOU are removing well-sourced content. This page was published in 2016. Some editors with a Stratfordian bias tried to have it removed but an adjudication resolved to retain it. It will be clear to anyone who investigates your edits (removing verifiable facts) that you are trying to impose your own bias on this article. Please undo them.RalphWinwood (talk) 13:18, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia must have a "Stratfordian bias" as it mirrors respectable mainstream scholarship. This is what we call neutral. I shall raise a query at WP:FT/N. Alexbrn (talk) 13:26, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexbrn: Please Google Tonm Reedy and you'll find he's the most outspoken defender of the orthodox view of Shakespeare authorship on the web. He was also the prime mover in the failed attempt to have the article deleted in 2016 (please see discussion [2]). Ian Thompson also participated in this failed attempt. The article has not materially changed since that time. This is not about neutrality.RalphWinwood (talk) 14:05, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

It's been poor for a while then. This is common enough on Wikipedia, but what has that got to do with anything? The article was a horrible WP:PROFRINGE mess and now that consensus is widening following the WP:RS/N thread it's going to get improved by dumping the original research and fringe sources, and using good RS in line with the WP:PAGs. That will be progress. Alexbrn (talk) 14:25, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Obviously these edits were introduced with the intention of changing the neutral stance of the article. They do not give an unbiased and fair description of the Nevillean theory, which is the purpose of the article.

Tom Reedy is not just a highly interested partisan in this debate, he also has personally and publicly attacked me on the Oxfraud Facebook group where he is an administrator, and another administrator of that group, Mike Leadbetter called me "schizophrenic" on the same post. This happened within the last two weeks. Go to the Shakespeare Authorship wiki entry for more discussion of previous personal attacks on me.

This has nothing to do with Wikipedia standards of editorship, it's a coordinated effort to push a specific agenda. Look at the Wikipedia discussion of the reliable sources for this page, created by Tom Reedy, the foul language used and the ridiculous bias involved in that discussion.

What's happened here is the Wiki article has been rewritten as a summary of a book review written by a biased person 13 years ago. David Kathman is not a biased observer, he is a harsh partisan in these debates. So focusing on his book review so heavily is in itself non-neutral.

I provided on this Talk page a recent RS that summarizes recent developments in research into the Nevillean theory. None of that content is included, and that is not used as an RS to support the content that was already on the wiki entry. This clearly shows the biased intent of these edits.

There is an active Talk section here. None of these edits were made in consultation with anyone else. Wikipedia is supposed to be about building consensus, not doing radical rewrites of an established page without consultation with anyone else.

This is a shameful misuse of Wikipedia to push personal agendas by harsh partisans in this debate. I am a supporter of the Nevillean theory, but I have tried to engage with this in a proper manner, using the Talk section to build consensus before making major edits, and working to identify high quality sources.

It truly is shameful how people are trying to use Wikipedia to push their own personal agendas. Wikipedia should reflect the scholarly consensus on these issues, but it is supposed to be NEUTRAL. By removing factual information from this article, it is no longer NEUTRAL. Also, by interspersing the views of one extremely harsh partisan (David Kathman), it loses its neutrality as well.

Kathman in his book review de-emphasizes the strongest arguments for Neville's authorship since he is a harsh partisan in this debate. So by relying on him as the main source, all of the strongest arguments are ignored, because he did not include those in his book review -- since he is a harsh partisan.

Fortunately, these edits and the background to them, the ignoring of the Talk discussion on here, all of this is public record for all time. So everyone can see what happened and why.

Here is a summary of recent research into Henry Neville's authorship. These are the points that should be included in this article: http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates/neville.htm

If harsh partisans are allowed to use Wikipedia to push their own agendas, it becomes a soapbox for their views, rather than an unbiased and neutral encyclopedia. People come to this article looking to learn about the Nevillean theory, not to be fed an impoverished version of it designed to push a certain agenda.Kfein (talk) 16:10, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

This "Tom Reedy" person is not somebody we're citing; how is he relevant? As to Kathman he is published in the Shakespeare Quarterly which is about as fine an imprimatur for Shakespeare scholarship as we could wish. Wikipedia reflects accepted knowledge as reflected in reliable sources, so this is a perfect source. The Shakespeare Authorship Trust looks cranky and is not what Wikipedia calls a reliable source. So far as I can see, all serious academic sources treat the Nevillean theory with snorting derision, but if other GOOD sources have a different take we should certainly use them - but we ain't going to be indulging fringe source as that would be counter to our mission, as the consensus at WP:RS/N made explicit. Alexbrn (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

This "Tom Reedy" person has posted on this Talk page and initiated the discussion of the sources for this article which led to your edits. David Kathman is an extremely harsh partisan in this issue, he is not a neutral authority. I am not arguing with using him as a source, I am arguing with the bizarre over-emphasis of an article written so long ago that is biased to begin with and does not incorporate any of the research done in the last 15 years.

I posted a good reliable source on the Talk page BEFORE you made your wholesale rewrite of the article. You did not consult it, which just shows the lack of neutrality and attempt to bias the article. You are obviously an extremely biased individual with an agenda of your own. Or you are some type of sock puppet. Likely both.

It is obvious what is going on here, and posterity can see it. We have a record here for all time. That's the great thing about Wikipedia.

The "mission" of this article is to provide a neutral and full description of the Nevillean theory of Shakespeare authorship. It is not to push an interpretation of that theory. It should reflect the scholarly consensus, but the main purpose of the article is to describe the theory.

The Shakespeare authorship trust is not an RS, but they are the leading organization in the field of Shakespeare Authorship, so their description of the Neville theory is a good one to refer to for a summary of the latest research. Trying to ossify the research as it stood 15 years ago is just a form of biased presentation. But even there, the presentation is biased and purposely misleading.Kfein (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Your attempts to personalize this discussion are unwelcome and disruptive, and if continued will likely lead to you being sanctioned. Please WP:FOC. I used the best sources from known high quality sources as returned by my library search engine. If there are other good sources, propose them. But we're not going to be using fringey web sites. Alexbrn (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not concerned about being sanctioned by anyone. My name is Ken Feinstein. I am personalizing this because I have been subject to harassment by Tom Reedy and Mike Leadbetter, two Wikipedia editors, and I need to create a record of that. I made a similar record of it on the Shakespeare Authorship wiki page and I am making it here as well.

The Talk page of this article had a discussion of reliable sources BEFORE you made your edits. You ignored that, which shows your lack of good faith in your edits. You also did not discuss your major edits on the Talk page before making them. It shows you had no intention of working to build consensus; you are only interested in pushing a biased agenda. Kfein (talk) 17:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi. I'm Mike Leadbetter. For the purposes of clarity and context, I am not a regularly active Wikipedia editor and I called you a "self-cleaning schizophrenic" after you deleted all your posts on Oxfraud, a Shakespearean discussion group which gives itself plenty of latitude to deal summarily with poor argument and fanciful claims. After two months of failing to convince anyone that any of your claims had merit, after receiving a great deal of serious and detailed rebuttal, you rewarded the group by deleting all your posts, knowing that Facebook would delete all of the replies, wasting the hours of time posters had spent replying in good faith. And here you are again, wasting people's time, attempting to introduce unreliable sources and pass off discredited argument as scholarship. Sicinius (talk) 11:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Kfein, The neutral stance is that Shakespeare wrote all the works attributed to him by mainstream scholarship (because that's what mainstream means), and the Nevillean theory is fringe and must not be presented as anything else. That's Wikipedia policy. Your reference to websites like the "Shakespearian Authorship Trust" is a red flag. Guy (help!) 19:39, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

This article never took a different stance than that. I am not suggesting a different stance than that. I recommend you read the other Wikipedia articles dedicated to authorship candidates to learn how this is handled on Wikipedia. The purpose of this article is not to be a polemic providing a point of view. It's supposed to be a neutral description of the fringe theory that marks it as a fringe theory. It may be appropriate to include criticisms of the theory as part of the overall article, but this article has been turned into just a rehashing of one harsh partisan's review of one book 13 years ago.

As far as "red flags" go the Shakespeare Authorship Trust website is linked from the Shakespeare Authorship wiki page and it is linked from here. I understand your desire to turn Wikipedia articles into propaganda for your position, but it is not the purpose of Wikipedia. Kfein (talk) 20:13, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I cast an aspersion there, which I apologize for and strike out. I stand by the claim that the way this rewrite was handled, in a unilateral manner without prior consultation, was inappropriate and not in-line with the standards of the Wikipedia community.Kfein (talk) 21:16, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The need to undo all of the recent edits

The recent edits by Alexbrn need to be undone. Each paragraph they propose to add should be posted in the Talk and discussed until a consensus is reached. In addition, each proposed deletion or change should be posted in Talk and discussed until a consensus is reached.

The edits as they stand are amateurish and not up to Wikipedia standards for accuracy and neutrality. Look at this for instance:

Another manuscript produced in evidence is the Northumberland Manuscript, a piece of paper which contains many scrawled names of figures of the age, including Shakespeare's, Francis Bacon's, and the word "Nevill". The page has been used by Baconians as supposed evidence for Bacon being the "true" author of Shakespeare's works; James and Rubinstein argue that the presence of Neville's names means that it is Neville who is the true author, and that it is evidence Neville "practised Shakespeare's signature."[3][1]

This is not an accurate description of the Northumberland Manuscript, of what it contains, of what is written on the flyleaf, etc. The reference to "Baconians" is completely irrelevant to this article and is simply introduced to harm the neutrality of the article, as the scare quotes emphasize. The paragraph doesn't even really make sense. Each paragraph needs to be sourced properly and corrected for errors before it is added to the page.

I do not want to over-dramatize what has happened here. The simple solution is to undo all of the edits, and then Alexbrn can propose each and every change one by one, and the Wikipedia community can reach consensus on it and then move forward. That is the proper way to handle this.

Alexbrn likely is not familiar with Wikipedia best practices, and we do not want to discourage them from editing this page. So I think it is important to welcome their edits, just to help them understand the consensus process required before making major changes to an article.

Kfein (talk) 17:48, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Nobody needs to ask permission to edit this or any other page. It is you who doesn't have a grasp on Wikipedia policies, despite being asked several times to acquaint yourself with them. This page needs to be rewritten using acceptable sources, not the fringe books that proposed the original "theory". I haven't had time, and I probably won't have the time (or the interest, really, given the low readership this page gets), and anyone can participate. And your rant in the above section is entirely irrelevant. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:59, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I am trying to handle this properly by building consensus on how to deal with this wholesale rewrite of this article. There was a discussion going on in this Talk page about changing the sources of the article to make it more in-line with Wikipedia standards. Alexbrn did not engage with that discussion or consult those sources. Instead, they used an extremely biased source from a non-neutral individual that does not reflect the latest research into Neville authorship. They essential time-machined the article to reflect what was going on in 2008. It is 2019.

You really do not understand that this article is about the Neville theory. So it should reflect that and describe that. That is what neutrality is.

Let me re-iterate, you have been engaged in an active campaign of harassment against me on your Oxfraud Facebook page. You personally have posted about me, and Mike Leadbetter, who is another administrator of your Oxfraud page, described me as "schizophrenic" in response to your post. This happened within the last 2-3 weeks. I believe that David Kathman, who is cited so frequently in these new edits, is also connected with your group and the Oxfraud website. So in dealing with you on here, I am dealing with a disingenuous and inappropriate individual who violates every Wikipedia standard of civility and appropriate behavior. Kfein (talk) 18:08, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

It is important to clearly document these things so the Wikipedia community can understand exactly how these edits arose. Kfein (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

In addition to all the other policy and guideline articles I have asked you to read, you should put this one at the top of your list: WP:PA. Tom Reedy (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not engaging in personal attacks. I am documenting your pattern of harassment. Kfein (talk) 04:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

... which is an entirely inappropriate use of this Talk page. Since this topic is subject to WP:Discretionary sanctions editors are expected to be squeaky clean in their observation of the WP:PAGs. Alexbrn (talk) 07:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I hope the people commenting here will succeed in avoiding personal attacks. Due to the Arbcom sanctions, any sign of impropriety in these discussions may lead to admin intervention. Continued reference to a discussion that may have taken place on Facebook may lead to WP:OUTING complaints and possible deletions from this thread. Also "I am documenting your pattern of harassment" risks getting into the domain of WP:ASPERSIONS, which would quickly take us to an admin board. EdJohnston (talk) 14:37, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I've not contributed to the article, so I'm not invested in its content. I've reviewed Alexbrn's changes, and see that he's vastly improved it by removing considerable synthesis and original research, as well as references to dubious sources. Carlstak (talk) 15:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a lot of factual errors have been introduced, and the article no longer has objectivity or neutrality. Plus many new dubious sources have been added. The proper way to expand this article would be to take the other articles on Shakespeare authorship theories as models, to mimic how they provide an explication of the fringe theory while also reflecting the current scholarly consensus.Kfein (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Better neutrality has now been achieved, which is surely good. I think Hitchen's razor otherwise needs to be applied unless we can have some actual evidence for (a) factual errors, and (b) dubious sources. Compared to what we had before, I think our sourcing standard has improved hugely! Because WP:OSE we don't base our articles on precedent, but on the WP:PAGs, which this article is increasingly aligning to. Alexbrn (talk) 16:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The factual errors need to be dealt with one by one. For instance, Audley End doesn't have a copy of Holinshed's Chronicles. I don't know whether that is Kells' error or yours. The description of the Northumberland Manuscript is also still incorrect.

The dubious sources are the Shakespeare Oxford Newsletter and The Oxfordian.

The article has been turned into an anti-Neville-theory rant rather than a neutral description of theory. Kfein (talk) 17:06, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Those sources look fine for the mild claims they support. Perhaps ask at WP:RS/N if you want that confirmed? As to Holinshed, Kells says that is was "in all likelihood" in Neville's library at the time (neither he nor we mention Audley End) - I shall tweak. Alexbrn (talk) 17:21, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Those sources are not fine in any way shape or form for anything. If those sources are fine, then Casson's books should be used as sources as well, etc. It's an obvious and ridiculous double standard.

Kells is making something up there. I have no idea what "in all likelihood" might mean. My main concern is factual accuracy. It is not accurate to suggest that Henry Neville owned a copy of Holinshed's Chronicles because there is no evidence he did. There is a copy of the first edition of the book at the University of Kansas that was owned by his uncle-in-law William Killigrew, he almost certainly had access to that copy at Lothbury. And his father-in-law Henry Killigrew was one of the censors of the second edition. I am happy to help you include those details if you don't consider that original research, we can confirm that easily with reliable sources. Kfein (talk) 17:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is the blog post by the University of Kansas about their copy of Holinshed Chronicles. https://blogs.lib.ku.edu/spencer/a-holinsheds-chronicles-provenance-puzzle/ William Killigrew was the uncle of Henry Neville's wife, and Neville stayed with him often in Lothbury. He also references this "uncle Killigrew" several times in his letters.

I think though Kells was referencing Henry Killigrew's involvement as a censor of the 1587 edition of Holinshed. It is documented in detail on page 52 of The Oxford Handbook of Holinshed's Chronicles.

The connection of Henry Killigrew with Holinshed's Chronicles is one of the many major arguments made by proponents of the Neville theory. The connection with William Killigrew's copy is something new not yet published in any books (though is on my blog).Kfein (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

"Highlights from Neville’s collection of English books and manuscripts reveal a sound literary sensibility and strong literary connections. A handwritten copy of Leicester’s banned Commonwealth. A copy of Thomas Mille’s Catalogue of Honor, printed by Jaggard, 1610 (Neville’s copy appears to be a proof version with pre-publication corrections). A rare manuscript of John Lydgate’s Fall of Princes. Sir Thomas Hoby’s translation of Baldassare Castiglione’s The Courtier, 1561 (Hoby married Neville’s aunt). Edward Hall’s The Union of the Two Noble and Illustre Families of Lancastre and Yorke, 1542. And another key Shakespearean source, Holinshed’s Chronicles, 1587, edited by John Hammond, Thomas Randolph and Sir Henry Killigrew (Neville’s father-in-law)." Kells, p. 166. Tom Reedy (talk) 06:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Kells book is filled with errors. It is not actually reliable. But it is the best recent RS on the Neville theory. If people want to introduce his errors into the Wikipedia article, I cannot stop them. But I think it is best to create a fact-based and useful article that meets the highest standards. Wikipedia guidelines are not a death pact to publish false information. They are guidelines. Kfein (talk) 08:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Online journal

Kells write there is (was?) an online journal spawned by the publication of Truth Will Out. Anybody know anything about that? Alexbrn (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

This is the information I have. THE JOURNAL OF NEVILLE STUDIES ISSN 1754-1999

As far as I know, there were two issues, April 2007 and February 2008. Kfein (talk) 16:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Wonder if there's any secondary commentary on this. Alexbrn (talk) 16:58, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't know. But there is a lot of secondary commentary on John Casson's books, and that all needs to be incorporated into the article.Kfein (talk) 17:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Such as? Alexbrn (talk) 17:12, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I listed them in this Talk page before you made your edits. I was trying to work with the Wikipedia community to identify good reliable sources so we could work together to improve the page before you unilaterally rewrote it. The essential problem with your complete rewrite is that it doesn't reflect the current state of the Nevillean theory. It ignores all of the research done by Casson, Bradbeer, Leyland, Goding, etc. You have rmeoved all external links, so there is no way for the reader to find out about any of that. You've turned the page into a book review of a book written in 2005. This is 2019.

I understand how Wikipedia works and all of this will be resolved very soon naturally anyway. But in the meantime we really should make the article actually a good one, as best we can, reflecting the current state of affairs. Kfein (talk) 17:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

For full disclosure, let me reiterate that I am someone actively engaged in research into Henry Neville's authorship of the works of Shakespeare. I have a blog on the subject http://kenfeinstein.blogspost.com/ and a wiki on the subject: http://www.nevilleresearch.com/ So I have done my own extensive original research into what books are at Audley End or what the Northumberland Manuscript is, etc. I corresponded with John Casson while he was alive and I work together with other Neville researchers on this. I do not claim to be a neutral observer of this debate. I am not suggesting, however, that we incorporate my original research into the article. That will happen in time as it is reflected in reliable sources. But we should reflect the research of others that has been covered in reliable secondary sources. Kfein (talk) 17:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I think the reality is that the "current state of the Nevillean theory" has garnered no interest outside its own peculiar bubble. We have Kells (2018) as an up-to-date independent source and from this it is apparent the whole Nevillean thing is seen as a bit of a joke. If we're missing some great sources please humour us and list them - but I think the article now uses all the available high-quality sources on this topic and gives a fair & neutral description. I can appreciate that as an adherent of the theory this might not please you, but we are obliged to follow high-quality mainstream sources, and so cannot "fix" reality for you. Alexbrn (talk) 17:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

As I explained above, John Casson's books and articles received a lot of attention in the mainstream press. In any case, we will all work together to improve this article for now, correcting your errors, making it more balanced, describing the theory correctly and fully as it stands now as it is reflected in reliable sources. There are many important facts that we cannot currently include in the article because they are not yet written about by reliable secondary sources. As time goes on, the situation will shift dramatically. But this is not our concern for the present.

I encourage you to read the Talk page and what was added to it before you made your edits. There is lots there to work from. Kfein (talk) 17:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Arguments from biography

Before the rewrite, the article contained many "arguments from biography." Essentially all of those were deleted, and a short paragraph inserted that does not actually describe any of those arguments. These arguments are well described in the secondary sources cited in the article. So this is a huge area that needs to be expanded in the article, in-line with Wikipedia standards.Kfein (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes indeed, this area needs expansion - Kells is very good on this - but equally we need to be clear that the Nevillean's arguments are fallacious (per our sources). Alexbrn (talk) 18:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

No, we need to provide factual information about the Neville theory and Neville's biography and put it into context. You misunderstand how Wikipedia articles on fringe theories are supposed to be written. So you have a produced an article that is extremely biased and non-neutral. But we will all work together to fix that.

I would begin with the connections among Shakespeare, Neville, and the Earl of Southampton, since these are all well documented facts. There is also a vast scholarly literature on how that relates to the Essex Rebellion. This is key.

Neville's relationship with Henry Savile and their travels together in Europe are also a key aspect of the Neville theory and it is well-documented in mainstream scholarly literature.

There is so much to cover, but there's no space limit, we can make this article as detailed and comprehensive as any of the other articles about authorship candidates like Oxford or Bacon. We can bring in excellent secondary sources so that every fact is double and triple-confirmed. It is an exciting project! Kfein (talk) 18:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

"You misunderstand how Wikipedia articles on fringe theories are supposed to be written." I"m afraid you're the one with the misunderstanding, evinced by your latest round of edits, most of which is pure WP:OR. Fully describing every nook and cranny of this fringe theory is not the purpose of Wikipedia, nor delivering a blow-by-blow description of how the theorists arrived at their conclusions. A WP page should only contain what has been covered in secondary, independent, reliable sources, and that only to the proportion that it has been covered. Both WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT, neither of which it appears you have read, are the main guidelines for an article of this sort. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:43, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, and I have reverted these unhelpful edits. Kfein to avoid WP:OR please do not insert sources which make no mention of the "Nevillean theory", do not alter already-cited text so it violates WP:V (as you did here[3]), and be very careful about copy and pasting text from copyrighted third-party sources like lostplays.folger.edu (which as a wiki as also an suitable source). Above all remember that it is a core policy that Wikipedia is a "summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject". It is worth having this as a mantra and meditating on all the main aspects of it - "summary", "accepted knowledge" and "regarding its subject" - for edits you are considering. Alexbrn (talk) 05:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC); amdeded 06:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Let's take this one by one. What exactly did I copy and paste that might be construed as plagiarism?Kfein (talk) 06:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake - on closer inspection you quoted the offended text. I struck the text above. Alexbrn (talk) 06:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The lost plays database is edited by scholars in the field. It is not a wiki. It is absolutely the highest quality source. That article was written by a professor at the University of Toronto who is one of the world's experts in Lost Plays. It is immeasurably higher quality than the sources you have introduced into this Wikipedia article. Kfein (talk) 06:34, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

A self-described "wiki-style forum". Alexbrn (talk) 06:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The articles are signed by the authors. That specific article was written by an expert on the topic. It is not an open-access wiki. It is edited by leading scholars on the topic. This article now is based largely on sources written by complete amateurs who are not trained in the field at all. The Lost Plays Database would be a huge step up. Kfein (talk) 06:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I know the originators of LPD and it is indeed a reliable source, but it is irrelevant to this article unless it discusses the Nevillian theory. Once again, you need to read the policies and guidelines. You should take a few weeks off and read them through, along with a few noticeboards. It would save you a lot of time in the long run. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:15, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

It would save other editors' time too. There is a point where WP:BLUDGEONING becomes disruptive. Alexbrn (talk) 07:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kfein: The problem with linking to any type of wiki is that it is user-generated and so potentially unstable as a source. But since the site appears not to mention the Nevillean theory I don't even know why it's on the table here (except through the unwanted desire for original research). Alexbrn (talk) 07:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I linked to it because it described correctly what the Northumberland Manuscript was and what the cover was. Because you had an error in the article that needed to be corrected. I am not taking any time off editing this page, I will continue to do my good work helping to make it good. Pointing out factual errors in the article is not WP:BLUDGEONING. Point out non reliable sources that you agree with is not WP:BLUDGEONING. Adding relevant links and sources is not WP:BLUDGEONING.

I have been accused of casting aspersions in this discussion. What I wrote was " So you have a produced an article that is extremely biased and non-neutral. But we will all work together to fix that." The article, when i wrote that, was extremely biased and non-neutral. I did not accuse anyone of anything. We are currently working to fix that. That is not casting aspersions, it is stating a fact about how the article stood at that time.

The accusation above of WP:BLUDGEONING is unfair and I request an apology.Kfein (talk) 21:11, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Timeline for Shakespeare's Plays

I don't quite understand this recent addition to the aritcle:

He writes that the alignment of Neville's life events with the subject matter of Shakespeare's plays relies on a bogus timeline for the plays,

As far as I know, Neville researchers have always accepted the traditional timeline for Shakespeare's plays. What is this "bogus" timeline referred to here? Which plays exactly? Kfein (talk) 18:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Kells' point is that the Nevilleans' invocation of an "accepted chronology of Shakespeare's plays" is in multiple senses, false. He calls their proposed alignment of Neville's life events with their version of the chronology "delightfully wacky". This point might be usefully expanded. Alexbrn (talk) 19:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

There is no point. There is a scholarly consensus on the chronology of Shakespeare's plays and Neville people align with that exactly. There is no reason to expand on something false. False things should be removed from the article, even if they are in a source. Sources make errors. Kfein (talk) 19:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Let me clarify exactly what I mean so there is no misunderstanding. Henry Neville was in prison from 1601-1603. Neville proponents suggest that this time in prison colored his writing of Shakespeare plays. So plays like Hamlet, Othello, King Lear, and Macbeth were influenced by this time in prison. Henry Neville was on the governing council of the Virginia Company. So he would have access to the Strachey Letter, a source for the Tempest. So Neville researchers are aligning the timeline of that play exactly with the traditional view. Henry V has a reference to the Earl of Essex and his military exploits in 1599, and Neville researchers connect Neville with the military faction at exactly that time. They also note that the play has a lot of French dialog precisely when Neville was in ambassador to France. So the alignment is all quite precisely with traditional scholarship. There is no deviation that I am aware of, and it certainly is not the basis for the Neville theory. It's the exact opposite.Kfein (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Kells (2018): "After four centuries of scholarship and speculation, the chronology of Shakespeare's plays is still unsettled. There are good reasons for this [etc etc]". We follow reliable sources, not the random musings of Wikipedia editors. Alexbrn (talk) 19:55, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Kells is expressing a fringe view there. Not the scholarly consensus. Kfein (talk) 19:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

You'd need a very strong source meeting WP:RS/AC for that. Note that Chronology of Shakespeare's plays also sets out the position that there is considerable uncertainty. Alexbrn (talk) 20:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

There is not considerable uncertainty. There is debate about a few years in either direction for each play. It is very minor stuff and absolutely not relevant to the Neville authorship theory. There is a universal consensus within a few years for almost every play. It's just not a relevant concern to the Neville theory. I have absolutely no idea what Kells is referencing. Kfein (talk) 20:16, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Well come back when you have your views published in a good source. Until then, we follow acknowledged independent experts published in reliable sources. I'll expand Kells' reasoning in our article after Christmas! Alexbrn (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

My view that the scholarly consensus is the scholarly consensus? That all of the research done on Shakespeare dating is largely correct? My view is not at variance with almost all Shakespeare scholars and neither is the view of Neville proponents. Kells is not an expert on Shakespeare. Kfein (talk) 20:24, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Let me reiterate, this above line is simply false. The main arguments for the Shakespeare timeline from Neville proponents align precisely with the scholarly consensus. There is no variance. It is simply misleading to suggest otherwise -- even if Kells suggests otherwise. Kells is not an expert on Shakespeare. He is a valuable source in this peculiar situation because he has done up-to-date research on the Neville theory and the rules of Wikipedia preclude using the work of actual Neville researchers as a source. So we have to essentially "launder" the actual research through largely unreliable and biased secondary sources. But Kells is not a reliable source for scholarship on the works of Shakespeare. Kfein (talk) 20:29, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Hitchen's razor is coming out again I'm afraid. If you think we known with certainty the composition dates for the plays then maybe re-write Chronology of Shakespeare's plays where the point is made that there is uncertainty. Alexbrn (talk) 05:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Of course there is uncertainty. But some plays are much more uncertain than others. And Neville proponents have views in-line with the scholarly consensus. I don't know how many times you expect me to repeat the exact same thing.Kfein (talk) 06:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

You disagree with published, reliable sources. Which view do you think Wikipedia is bound to go with? Alexbrn (talk) 06:22, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't disagree with published, reliable sources. I have no idea what you are talking about. Which Neville people have a view of the chronology that differs in any way with the scholarly consensus? Kfein (talk) 06:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Kells' point is there is no consensus about precisely when stuff was written, and the Nevillian arguments rely on precise alignments. Alexbrn (talk) 06:51, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Which plays exactly and which arguments exactly? It is meaningless unless we understand what specifically he is talking about. Kfein (talk) 06:56, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

OK, look, you can't just quote any scholar on the chronology of the plays, it has to be from a source that discusses it in relation to the Nevillian theory. Otherwise it is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

So you are suggesting we edit this article with completely different standards from the ones you use to edit the Shakespeare Authorship Question wikipedia article?Kfein (talk) 07:10, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

My criticism of this line is reflected in this review of Kell's book: https://newcriterion.com/issues/2019/4/ex-libris This is exactly the point I made above:

n yet another contested area of scholarship—chronology and revision—Kells is prone to misstatements. That the “chronology of Shakespeare’s plays is still unsettled” is strictly true, but agreement within a year or two for the original composition of most plays is more widespread than this suggests.

Please explain to me why we should include that line from Kells when his reviewers think he is off-base? Alexbrn. or should we include a review of his review? As I explained, Kells is not a Shakespeare scholar. It is an RS but not a reliable source. Kfein (talk) 23:40, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

External Links

In the recent unilateral, non-neutral rewrite of the article, all external links were removed. They all should be restored, but especially this one: http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates/neville.htm

Kfein (talk) 19:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Fails WP:ELNO - this is essentially a fan site. I notice the "who we are" link returns a 404! When we have ample reliable sources, there is no need to scrape the barrel. Alexbrn (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry, the link works fine for me. Here is the information: http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/whoweare.htm

History Founded on 6 November 1922 in Hackney, London, our original name was the Shakespeare Fellowship. The name changed to The Shakespearean Authorship Society in 1959, and we are now The Shakespearean Authorship Trust, a registered charity. Our objective is the advancement of learning with particular reference to the social, political, and literary history of England in the 16th and 17th centuries and the authorship of the literary works that appeared under the name of William Shakespeare.

This is a well-established organization. Describing it as a "fan site" just shows your incredible non-neutrality on this topic.Kfein (talk) 19:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

You must be joking, Kfein. The link works for me, and the text on the Shakespearean Authorship Trust page is pseudo-scholarship—partisan speculation dressed up as analysis to advance a fringe agenda. Carlstak (talk) 20:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)\

It is an accurate and useful description of the Neville Theory of Shakespeare Authorship which is the topic of this article. This is an article about the Neville Theory of Shakespeare Authorship. I don't know what a "fringe agenda" is. I am not joking.

Precisely which of the facts described here are incorrect? http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates/neville.htm Kfein (talk) 20:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I have restored the external link, in-line with the practice of the Shakespeare Authorship Question article.Kfein (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Northumberland Manuscript

Another manuscript produced in evidence is the Northumberland Manuscript, a tattered piece of paper

It is not a tattered piece of paper.

which contains many words and handwritten names of figures of the age

it does not include "handwritten names of figures of the age". It includes a table of contents of very specific texts.

including Shakespeare's, Francis Bacon's, and the word "Nevill".

The word "Nevill" is written twice. The name "William Shakespeare" is written many times as is the name "Francis Bacon".

This is the most complete book ever written on the Northumberland Manuscript: https://archive.org/details/cu31924013117480/page/n18

This is a recent article about it from a professor at the University of Toronto: https://lostplays.folger.edu/Asmund_and_Cornelia

The Nortumberland Manuscript is a collection of documents. It has two covers. The front cover has the name William Shakespeare written on it many times.

It also has the name "Nevills" written twice and the Neville family motto "ne vile velis" written twice.

I understand the desire to suppress this information, even if it is carefully sourced. Kfein (talk) 05:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

We need to describe it as relevant secondary sources describe it. I'm not wedded to any particular form of words ("torn cover page" is fine too), but the gist of the secondary descriptions is that it has a lot of words scrawled over it and is incoherent (a "word salad" as Kells puts it). We also need to convey the thought from the secondaries that the Nevillians are reading way too much into it, as other factions do too according to their different desired discoveries! Alexbrn (talk) 06:19, 25 December 2019 (UTC)::

So we should fill this article with inaccurate information? And not link to sources that provide good information? The cover page is not torn. It is burnt as is the whole manuscript. The name "Nevill" is written twice on the top left. The family motto "ne vile velis" is also written twice in the same section. (It actually says "Nevills" but that is not in reliable sources yet). Kfein (talk) 06:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah there's lots of factoids about this scrap. But remember, "summary of accepted knowledge". Alexbrn (talk) 06:30, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

There are not a lot of factoids about the scrap. it is not a scrap of paper. it is the cover to a manuscript filled with specific documents. The cover lists the contents of the manuscript. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are not summarizing accepted knowledge, you are publishing false information on a Wikipedia article based on a misunderstanding of the facts. And then you are keeping me from correcting it, even though I link to the leading scholarship on the topic.Kfein (talk) 06:36, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

All that's relevant is the scrap with scrawlings on it, as that is what the Nevillians argue from. As I said, I'm not wedded to the particular form of words ("damaged cover of 90 page miscellany" or whatever is fine) so long as we stick to on-point secondary sourcing relating this to the Nevillean theory. Alexbrn (talk) 06:46, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

That is not true. The entire manuscript is relevant because the cover describes most of its contents. It is not a scrap. Why do you call it a scrap? The entire manuscript is damaged by fire. Not just the cover. It is a cover to a folio of documents.

The idea that we should not link to other scholarship on a topic is not reasonable and obviously we will need to escalate this issue. How can we know what the Nevilleans argue from if we are not allowed to cite the Nevillians, only the people commenting on the Nevilleans? How can you know? Which Nevilleans? When? Kfein (talk) 06:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

"The idea that we should not link to other scholarship on a topic is not reasonable" Your ideas about how Wikipedia articles can be written are irrelevant. Please read WP:OR and WP:WEIGHT. Other editors have been asking you to acquaint yourself with WP policies and guidelines since your first edit, but you display no evidence that you have done so. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Once again, you are suggesting we use completely different standards than the ones you use on the Shakespeare Authorship Question wiki article. Kfein (talk) 07:13, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kfein: "I" don't call it anything, I'm just trying to reflect RS. Re-consulting Kells it appears that even James & Rubinstein equate the manuscript to a page which might have been the cover of something. It seems all this stuff about "the whole document" is your original research. Alexbrn (talk) 07:15, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how to indent this correctly. But it is not my original research to state the undeniable fact that the Northumberland Manuscript is a collection of documents with a cover. And the cover lists the contents of the documents. It is just a fact. The conceit that we must only confine ourselves to the very few books written about the Neville theory for any information or fact checking is not consistent with Wikipedia standards and not consistent with any reasonable assessment of how this article should be edited. You are literally suggesting that we have factual errors and misrepresentations in this article because we are constrained to sources which contain factual errors or misrepresentations. But we can't even refer to the original source on the topic, because it is not a reliable source, so we can only refer to sources about the source.Kfein (talk) 07:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Here's Kell's most descriptive reference from p. 178: "They have especially high hopes for the Northumberland Manuscript, a big name for a small document. Even calling it a ‘manuscript’ is a stretch. The item in question is ‘a scrap of torn paper that seems to be part of the cover of a folder’. What the folder contained is a matter of debate. James and Rubinstein propose the folder was ‘used to hold or catalogue some sixteenth-century literary works’. The word ‘catalogue’ here makes the document seem more choreographed than it is. In reality the manuscript is a page filled from edge to edge with chaotic scribbling, like an exercise in writing practice or an Elizabethan doodle pad." As you can see, he quotes Rubinstein and James. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The entire Northumberland Manuscript has been photographed. The cover pages and the contents. They have been transcribed completely. It is not a secret what it contains now: https://archive.org/details/cu31924013117480/

Kells description is completely inaccurate. It does not matter if he is quoting Rubinstein and James. We cannot have completely false information on this wiki article just because the cited source has false information. Even if the cited source is citing Rubinstein and James.

The problem with this entire exercise in rewriting the article is that it attempts to erase the last 14 years in research on the Neville theory of shakespeare authorship. John Casson did research on the Northumberland Manuscript published by the British Library: http://www.bl.uk/eblj/2018articles/article11.html Kfein (talk) 07:35, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

A file of Burgoyne's transcription would be a good image for the article. I'm not even going to respond to your continual complaints until you read the WP policies and guidelines. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

By your clearly stated logic, that would be OR and is forbidden since Burgoyne does not reference The Neville Theory.Kfein (talk) 07:39, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Why are you insulting me on the Wikipedia Talk page?Kfein (talk) 07:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I apologize and I have redacted my comment. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

This was the comment: No mystery why you're a Nevillian. Kfein (talk) 16:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Let us start again with this until it is understood.

The Northumberland Manuscript is a collection of hand-written documents. Currently it includes essays by Francis Bacon, a letter from Philip Sidney, and most of Leicester's_Commonwealth, and some things related to the Earl of Essex. So it's like a handwritten book. The entire book was damaged by fire.

There is a front cover and a back cover to this book. The front cover has text that describes the contents. It's serves as a table of contents. So the essays by bacon are listed in very fancy handwriting. Then below added in later, apparently, Leicester's Commonwealth is mentioned, etc. There are four plays mentioned. Two of those plays are by Shakespeare, Richard II and Richard III. The other two are Isle of Dogs by Thomas Nashe and Asmund and Cornelia. It is reasonably assumed these plays were once included with the other documents but they are not there any longer. But we can't be sure.

That table of contents is on the right of the page. On the left on the top left is the name "Nevills" (it actually has an "s" but I just discovered that) and then the name is repeated again more clearly. The Neville family motto "ne vile velis" is also written twice, once faintly and once quite clearly and prominently with flourishes.

There are several other things written, a poem in Latin, a quote from Rape of Lucrece. And there are many scribbles. The Scribbles include the name William Shakespeare written many times, fully and partially, as well as the name Francis Bacon. There are a few other names written, for instance the name "Thomas" is written a bunch of times. But mainly it is William Shakespeare and Francis Bacon written over and over. This is on the front cover.

There has always been very good reason to suspect that Henry Neville owned the manuscript. For instance, the fact that his name and family motto are written on it might offer a clue. I gave you a link to the book that goes into the rest details.

"Northumberland Manuscript" refers to the entire set of documents. The cover is called the "cover" or the "flyleaf" depending.

The cover is, by far, the earliest handwritten reference we have to William Shakespeare. It is the first handwritten reference we have to the plays Richard II and Richard III. it is the only evidence anywhere of a manuscript of Shakespeare's plays during his lifetime. The name William Shakespeare is written more times than we have examples of it in his own handwriting (and of course it is written with much better penmanship).

These are facts about the document. You have 1. A false description of the document 2. irrelevant discussion of Baconian theories that have no place in this article. It is a scandal what you are doing. You include no relevant facts and just introduce bias and confusing details that are irrelevant in order to push a certain agenda. Kfein (talk) 22:31, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The article should be factual, first and foremost. Everything needs to be correct. It should be neutral. It should explain that this is a fringe theory and give appropriate context, but the emphasis should be on the relevant facts. Facts are neutral things. This is an encyclopedia, not a polemic apologetic text, which you have turned this article into.

Kfein (talk) 22:34, 25 December 2019 (UTC) Struck through some text to de-personalize the discussion.Kfein (talk) 04:30, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I have made light edits to clarify the difference between the cover of the manuscript and the contents of the manuscript. I still think this paragraph needs to be rewritten to more accurately reflect the contents of the manuscript. I believe our highest duty is to having a factually accurate article. I understand the prohibition against original research. Kfein (talk) 21:07, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Halls Chronicle

Edward Hall

Hall's best-known work, The Union of the Two Noble and Illustre Families of Lancastre and Yorke, commonly called Hall's Chronicle, was published by the printer Richard Grafton in 1548, the year after Hall's death. A revised edition (printed for Grafton by Richard Jugge) appeared in 1550. Both included a continuation from 1532 compiled by Grafton from the author's notes.[17][18] The only complete modern edition, entitled Hall's Chronicle, Containing the History of England During the Reign of Henry IV and the Succeeding Monarchs to the End of the Reign of Henry VIII, was prepared under the supervision of Sir Henry Ellis and published in 1809. A reprint was issued in 1965.[4] In 1904, the concluding chapter dealing with the reign of Henry VIII was edited by Charles Whibley.[19]

On 22 June 1940, Alan Keen, a dealer in antiquarian books, discovered an extensively annotated copy of Hall's Chronicle among the contents of a library from outside London which he had just purchased.[21] Keen considered that the marginal annotations, most of which are found in the chapters covering the reigns of Henry IV, Henry V, and Henry VI, were made by Shakespeare.[22] Keen published his findings in two journal articles,[23][24], and in a book co-authored with Alan Lubbock in 1954, The Annotator. After his death Keen left the volume in the hands of trustees, who placed it in the British Library, where until 2007 it was catalogued as Loan MS 61.[25] Kfein (talk) 06:29, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand why my link to Edward Hall was removed previously. I have restored it. I do not understand also why my addition that it is "commonly called Hall's Chronicle" was removed. Does anyone object to adding that? It seems like a good idea since all scholars refer to it as Hall's Chronicle.Kfein (talk) 21:05, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Problem with Sources in Article

By what logic are these considered reliable sources?

John Rollet (2005). "Rollout of The Truth Will Out at The Globe". Shakespeare Oxford Newsletter. 41 (4): 29.
Michael Dudley (2018). "Six Shakespeares in Search of an Author" (PDF). The Oxfordian (Book Review). 20: 177.

Kfein (talk) 06:59, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

They are not. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:10, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Rollet is fine for what it's used for: a description of a publicity event does not require super-strong RS. The Dudley one can be replaced by Kathman for the same point, but again it's not exactly an exceptional claim. Alexbrn (talk) 07:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Bad precedent. Pretty sure better sources are available, I imagine The Guardian has some coverage. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:36, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

That would be preferable, but no biggie I think. Alexbrn (talk) 08:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

So the suggestion is that actual RS written by proponents of the Neville theory and published by well-established press alongside articles by leading experts in Shakespeare cannot be referenced in any way, but articles written and published by the proponents of another fringe theory are perfectly appropriate? Kfein (talk) 19:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

No.

Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim.

Alexbrn (talk) 19:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, this standard will greatly expand the universe of possible sources. Is there consensus that we can use almost any source for a lightweight claim on this topic?Kfein (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Sources are only reliable or not in respect of content. Whether or not content should appear in an article is a different matter, a question of neutrality. I happen to think the description of the Globe launch is a nice detail to add in, but if editors challenged its inclusion there would be precious little defence of it as WP:DUE. Alexbrn (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

This article no longer even has the semblance of neutrality. It is being turned into a polemic rather than a neutral description of a fringe theory. Kfein (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I removed one of the citations that was not to a "lightweight" issue. I agree that the reference to the Globe opening is reasonable but it can be sourced elsewhere if necessary. Kfein (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Errors in Macdonald P. Jackson's Article

It is important to keep in mind that the sources that are being used as RS in this article are filled with false information. Take this for instance:

In 1605 William Shakespeare composed his great tragic masterpiece, King Lear, and collaborated with Thomas Middleton on Timon of Athens. In the same year the courtier, diplomat, and MP for the Borough of Lewes, Sir Henry Neville, served on thirty-eight parliamentary committees. No vocational guidance officer could have better matched talent to trade. But Brenda James and William D. Rubinstein claim that Neville was the true author of Shakespeare's plays. They expect to "stun the literary world."

Henry Neville was not an MP for Lewes in 1605. His cousin was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

He had not been a diplomat since 1601. He was living in Berkshire and was an MP For Berkshire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkshire_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

He wasn't even really a courtier at the time in any real sense; he was a country gentleman living at Billingbear. In addition, parliament was prorogued, apparently, for almost all of 1605.

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/neville-sir-henry-i-1564-1615

In the event, however, Cecil found no use for him, and consequently he remained idle at Billingbear for much of 1605. Neville may have missed the re-opening of Parliament in November 1605.

And here is more information:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/survey/parliament-1604-1610

Following a prorogation lasting sixteen months, Parliament reassembled in November 1605. On the discovery of the Gunpowder Plot, however, proceedings were swiftly adjourned. On resuming the session in January 1606, the Commons called for firmer action to be taken against Catholics.

For those interested in facts and evidence, it is worth keeping this in mind as we deal with these extremely biased sources filled with factual errors. Kfein (talk) 09:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

It is stunning that this is still in the article:

MacDonald P. Jackson wrote that "it would take a book to explain all that is wrong" with The Truth Will Out. In Jackson's view while it is tempting just to dismiss the book, it offers an opportunity instead to "think straight, get the facts right, and reach sensible conclusions".[6]

Even though he has so many facts wrong. Kfein (talk) 23:24, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I have shortened Jackson's quote since to do otherwise would expose him to charges of hypocrisy since he himself was completely unable to provide factual information in his review.Kfein (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Page move?

Reading sources on this, I'm thinking the notable topic here is the book The Truth Will Out: Unmasking the Real Shakespeare which is what RS dwells on, rather than "Nevillean theory of Shakespeare authorship" which appears to be a concept outside RS being boosted by Wikipedia. I think therefore it might be an idea to move this page to be about the book rather than the "theory" (it's not a "theory" of course). This would only require a minor tweak of the content. Alexbrn (talk) 10:29, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

This is an ingenious attempt to delete this page. But the RS refer to many other books on the subject, so what you are saying is not justified at all. The Kells books goes far beyond the contents of Truth Will Out, and so does Shakespeare Beyond Doubt. We also need to relitigate the RS status of the other books written on the subject by major and minor presses.

The article as it stands now is obviously non-neutral. We will have to work on that over time.

Kfein (talk) 15:50, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

See my post below about the 2018 book "My Shakespeare: The Authorship Controversy" published in 2018. Kfein (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I think as this page grows and the sources deepen, it has become very clear that this proposal is not supported by the facts and should be rejected.Kfein (talk) 21:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Yet Another RS to Use

The Book "My Shakespeare The Authorship Controversy" was published by Edward Everett Root in 2018, a well-known and established publisher. It is edited by William Leahy, a professor at Brunel University London. It has a chapter called "Our Shakespeare: Henry Neville: 1612-1615" by John Casson, William D. Rubinstein, and David Ewald.

The Book includes a chapter by Alan H. Nelson. He is professor Emeritus at UC Berkeley and one of the renowned Shakespeare scholars in the country.

By any standard this is an RS. We will be using this going forward for this article. If anyone disagrees, we can escalate this however you like, but by any standard, this is a Wikipedia RS on the Neville theory of Shakespeare Authorship.

Kfein (talk) 15:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Looks like it's by advocates so would fall afoul of WP:FRIND. Alexbrn (talk) 16:44, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

We will have to work with the Wikipedia community on this. The standard you are setting of completely excluding anything written by advocates is not adopted by other similar articles. We will have to work step by step through this.

Kfein (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Was already answered at WP:RS/N. No fringe sources thanks. Alexbrn (talk) 16:50, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

No, it wasn't answered at all. But we can work on this together step by step. Kfein (talk) 16:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it was, but widened consensus would be no bad thing - there's an open thread ongoing at WP:FT/N#Stratfordian Bias? if you wish to expand it ... Alexbrn (talk) 17:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

No consensus was reached at all. The actual consensus reached was that Truth Will Out is a RS, which it obviously is. Kfein (talk) 17:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

My view is that it would be appropriate to reference this book on topics that are specifically brought up in independent secondary sources. But to avoid soapboxing, it would be inappropriate to incorporate other content from this book into the article.Kfein (talk) 21:03, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Guardian Article is RS on Neville Theory

This article, which I posted above, is an RS: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/05/shakespeare-himself-may-have-annotated-hamlet-book-claims-researcher

Kfein (talk) 16:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, but it hardly mentions Neville. Alexbrn (talk) 16:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I have incorporated content from the Guardian piece into this article since it is undeniably RS. The author. Alison Flood, writes extensively on Shakespeare and related issues. Her writing is actually much better informed and better researched and better balanced than many of the other sources cited here. Kfein (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

External Links Shakespearean Authorship Trust

The Shakespeare Authorship Question page is " a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community."

That pages has an external link to: The Shakespearean Authorship Trust—an organisation dedicated to promoting the Shakespeare authorship question

Since that page has been carefully vetted by the Wikipedia community, there is no legitimate question about whether it is appropriate to link out to the Shakespeare authorship trust website.

Therefore, we should restore the link to that website in the external links of this page. Specifically to this page: http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates/neville.htm

Kfein (talk) 16:15, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:OSE, and FA is a notoriously unreliably yardstick. We're not having fringe links here thanks! Alexbrn (talk) 16:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we will need to escalate this question as well. We can keep a list and get others involved to adjudicate these issues. We will decide all of these questions by consensus based on Wikipedia community standards, not by your personal views. Step by step we will work together to improve this article. Kfein (talk) 16:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I say that, but honestly, I think we can work together to build consensus right here. I was trying to build consensus before on RS and improving this page, but you did not engage with me, and instead made our unilateral edits without any consultation with the community that edits this page. I think we can change things moving forward. Maybe you didn't realize there is an active and interested community right here eager to improve this page. Kfein (talk) 17:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

There's a broad consensus on how this page needs to be improved, and just pushback from one or two Nevillian WP:SPAs like yourself, with arguments at odds with the WP:PAGs. This is a typical situation for a Wikipedia article on a fringe topic. If you want to widen consensus, I've pointed to where you might start doing that ... Alexbrn (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

There is no broad consensus that an external link used on the Shakespeare Authorship Question page should not be used on this page. If there were such a broad consensus, that link would not be on that page which has been vetted by expert editors of the Wikipedia community. My arguments are not at odds with anything, they are consistent with Wikipedia guidelines. As anyone can see from my edit history, I have improved this page by removing inaccurate information, removing original research, and working together with other people to improve it. The fact that I am a proponent of the Neville theory does not make my edits or contributions any less valuable than yours. Kfein (talk) 18:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I have restored the link since it is linked on the Shakespeare Authorship Question wiki page, as explained above, it is one of the premier pages on Wikipedia carefully vetted by the Wikipedia community. So there is no legitimate question about the link being appropriate. Kfein (talk) 20:56, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Dealing with Fringe Theories

It has been proposed that no sources can be used that advocate fringe theories even if they are otherwise RS. This is not Wikipedia policy in any way shape or form. This article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories Says nothing like that.

Truth Will Out and the article in My Shakespeare The Authorship Controversy are both RS by any Wikipedia standard. They are written by advocates of the theory, but there is no actual Wikipedia standard that they should therefore be excluded from discussion of the theory. Other independent sources should be used appropriately to balance things.

This is the key point that needs to be resolved. The standard being advocated here is the view of one individual who has decided to unilaterally rewrite the article without working together with the Wikipedia community. It is not the correct standard and does not actually follow Wikipedia guidelines.

Kfein (talk) 17:02, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Please also note in reference to Independent Sources:

Independence does not imply even-handedness. An independent source may hold a strongly positive or negative view of a topic or an idea. For example, a scholar might write about literacy in developing countries, and he may personally strongly favor teaching all children how to read, regardless of gender or socioeconomic status. Yet if the author gains no personal benefit from the education of these children, then the publication is an independent source on the topic. Kfein (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

You probably need to read WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE and then you will understand why huge swathes of notionally "RS" publications aren't generally used (including entire Elsevier journals like Homeopathy). As WP:FRIND says, "Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles". it's quite straightforward. For describing Nevillean ideas, we need stuff written outside their fringe milieu. Alexbrn (talk) 17:15, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

And that is a fine standard to use, to discuss points only brought up in independent sources. But you are not following that standard, you are excluding all RS on the topic. And we need to untangle what "independent sources" means in that context and other context, because the term appears to have several meanings.Kfein (talk) 17:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

We have good independent sources: e.g. a scholarly book from Kells and and review in the Shakespeare Quarterly from people outside the Neville bubble. We are blessed with good sources, with far too much material in fact to use! But as I say, an active thread is open at WP:FT/N. If you want further views from editors steeped in the proper application of WP:FRINGE, add to that. Alexbrn (talk) 17:27, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

As I have shown above, these so-called "independent sources" (we will need to disentangle that term together as time goes on) are actually filled with factual errors. So saying that we are "blessed with good sources" is not a reasonable assessment of the situation. We are using incredibly biased sources that are written with little concern for facts because they are polemics. See just one paragraph from the MacDonald article I dissect above. Kfein (talk) 17:37, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I've made my view clear. As I say, if you want further views from editors steeped in the proper application of WP:FRINGE, add to the thread at WP:FT/N. Alexbrn (talk) 17:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

We still need to go through the WP:FRINGE together to understand precisely what it is saying. Then the rest of the community here can chime in. And then if necessary we can take it elsewhere. That is my understanding of the proper way to handle these things? Kfein (talk) 18:06, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Much as I hate arguments from authority, with ~40,000 edits to my name largely on contentious topics governed by WP:FRINGE I believe I have a reasonable WP:CLUE how it works. If you want a WP:MENTOR you can seek one (I'm not volunteering), but I'm not prepared to "go through" the guideline. The WP:FT/N noticeboard is a fine place to seek further views before maybe taking one of the WP:DR routes if you wish. Alexbrn (talk) 18:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that you explain the guidelines. I am saying that I need to go through the guidelines and explain to everyone how your personal view differs from them. As far as your authority goes, this is still in the article: "Another manuscript produced in evidence is the Northumberland Manuscript, a tattered piece of paper which contains many words and handwritten names of figures of the age," Even after I have explained what the Northumberland Manuscript is and provided independent sources from experts on what the Northumberland Manuscript is, you have not edited this false information. So I cannot accept your authority in any regard. The goal of Wikipedia is to provide factual and reliable information. It is an encyclopedia. Kfein (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

You also have accused me of WP:BLUDGEONING which completely unfair. You are making huge unilateral changes to the article without engaging in any discussion with the wikipedia community and building consensus first. It is an outrageous abuse of the process to suggest that I am WP:BLUDGEONING by trying to react to these huge changes. You also accused me of plagiarism which you only apologized for after I had to point it out. Throwing around charges like that is inappropriate and outrageous.Kfein (talk) 18:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the consensus view is that to avoid soapboxing, only topics covered by independent secondary sources should be referenced in the article. However, it is appropriate to cite James and Rubinstein's book directly to discover what they have written. We do not need to filter what they have written through an independent secondary source.Kfein (talk) 20:58, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Strong Evidence Truth Will Out Satisfies Wikipedia Criteria as an RS

This is an incredibly carefully edited website with articles written by professional editors. I believe there is a print version as well, someone can verify that, but it's irrelevant. This page: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/neville-sir-henry-i-1564-1615

Cites Truth Will Out 4-5 times as a source. Add that to the long list of reasons.Kfein (talk) 01:11, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't accept reliable sources by assertion, and this is not the place to make that determination. The proper place to ask whether a particular work is reliable is the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Fortunately, I have already tendered that question to garner the editorial consensus on using that book as a source, as you well know, having commented on the RfC.

On another note, there's no reason to clutter the talk page every time you have a thought. You have already made this comment at the RfC, so there's no need to repeat it here. It is also poor form to repost content from another editor that he or she has redacted, the way you did with my comment earlier today. There's a helpful list of handy tips at Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for your perusal. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:03, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

This is for discussing the specific issue of the book A Truth Will Out and its use in this article. It is not the proper place to discuss anything else.Kfein (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Just a friendly reminder: if you want to edit articles on Wikipedia you're going to have to conform to Wikipedia standards and guidelines, and sooner rather than later. I placed the SAQ template on your talk page when you first started trying to impose your personal preferences on the main SAQ page, which you promptly deleted. You're not the first person who has come to Wikipedia who has tried to change content contrary to the purpose of this project, and you won't be the last, but if you want to stick around and actually contribute to this encyclopedia you might want to examine how you're interacting with other editors. Otherwise you could find yourself along with all the other WP:SPAs who congratulate each other on having such high principles that they were banned from editing Wikipedia. That's all I'll say on this particular topic. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:52, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Once again, this is a completely inappropriate use of the Talk page to hurl false accusations against me. Kfein (talk) 05:00, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Organization of page and references

I think the main page should have some type of organization that lays out the information in a logical manner. I suggest we look at other SAQ pages and copy the design that would work for this page. specifically I think there needs to be a section for explaining the Neville case that includes the academic response to the main points, divided into probably five subheadings: biographical, cryptographic, Northumberland MS, Tower MS, and perhaps whatever else that doesn't merit an entire section. Another main section would cover the history of the theory, instead of having it mixed up with the arguments the way it is now. A third section could be the academic response other than the direct rebuttals to the arguments.

Another issue is the references. Using list-defined refs are fine for a one- or two-page article or review, but for something such as Kell's book it is too imprecise; the refs need page numbers so the reader can easily find the referred passage. Rather than going to a Harvard-style ref system, I think regular in-line refs along with short refs after the first mention would be sufficient, seeing that the ref list is gonna be pretty short given the youth of the theory. So the Kells ref would look something like this (I'm not gonna no-wiki it so it will appear just as it would in the article):

Kells, Stuart (2018). Shakespeare's Library: Unlocking the Greatest Mystery in Literature. Text Publishing. p. 176. ISBN 978-1-925626-75-9.

And of course after the first use of the ref the rest would look like so: <ref>Kells, 2018, p. 168-9.</ref>

Anyway as far as improving the article, I think these suggestions would go a long way to getting it up to at least a B-class, or at least out of start class. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Something like the proposed structure could work well - the current structure is a bit WP:CRITS-like (my fault, but I've been piling in new sources). I would also support the proposed upgrade of the referencing mechanism - it's much better for humanities topics. Alexbrn (talk) 07:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I am happy to abide by whatever format others agree is best. I certainly think we should be referencing specific pages for each citation. We also need to figure out which versions of the books to be citing since there are multiple versions published in different countries.Kfein (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Finding Sources for Leyland and Goding's code theory

The Wikipedia community consensus on this web page is that to avoid soapboxing, only topics covered by independent sources can be included in the article.

So to include this, we will need to find reliable, secondary sources that refer to the book, critically or otherwise:

James and Rubinstein did not publish their code theory in The Truth Will Out. In 2006, without knowledge of the details of James's work, Leyland and Goding set out to decrypt the dedication text independently, as a blind test of James's work. When James's cryptographic work was finally published in Henry Neville and the Shakespeare Code (2008), Leyland and Goding found that they had used a similar 15-column setting of the dedication to the sonnets but that they had included hyphens from the original text that were not included either by Rollet or James. In addition, they argue that there are many instances where the grid co-ordinates of a key letter in the dedication may be paired with the number of a sonnet, such that the sonnet illuminates the encrypted text (and vice versa). They also claim that the Dedication code is similar to the distinctive diplomatic codes used by Neville himself since both rely on grids of paired letters and numbers.Leyland, James; Goding, James (2018). Who Will Believe my Verse? The Code in Shakespeare's Sonnets. Melbourne: Australian Scholarly Publishing. ISBN 978-1925588675.

Kfein (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Pretty sure Kubus and Kells cover it sufficiently. We're not an instructional manual. All we really need is the basic description and the results, along with the criticism. Look at the Bacon theory article to see how it's handled there. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:32, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

This part would be valuable to add, since this is a well-documented fact about Henry Neville and relates to the code evidence:

They also claim that the Dedication code is similar to the distinctive diplomatic codes used by Neville himself since both rely on grids of paired letters and numbers.Leyland, James; Goding, James (2018). Who Will Believe my Verse? The Code in Shakespeare's Sonnets. Melbourne: Australian Scholarly Publishing. ISBN 978-1925588675.

The book is also published by an Academic publisher, Australian Scholarly Publishing. So it meets the criteria of being relevant to a topic raised by critics. It would not be soapboxing to use it as evidence in favor of Neville's use of codes.Kfein (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I have added a reference to the book. The book itself is published by an academic publisher in Australia. The detail added is factual and relevant to the discussion. It is not soapboxing because other independent secondary sources have brought up the issue of codes and their plausibility, and this is not presenting an independent new theory, but just referencing the topic of dispute. Kfein (talk) 01:04, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

You need to point us to the academic response to Leyland and Goding's work. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:59, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Why? Kfein (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

To clarify my question, what precise criterion are you suggesting the book does not meet and why precisely are you suggesting it must meet that criteria to be used as a source for this specific issue in the specific context of this article on this specific type of fringe theory in the context of other similar articles on the subject on Wikipedia.Kfein (talk) 04:36, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is a line from the Shakespeare Authorship Question wiki on Bacon. You, as an experienced editor, suggested I consult parallel articles. I did:

Since Bacon was knowledgeable about ciphers,[234] early Baconians suspected that he left his signature encrypted in the Shakespeare canon.

I do not want to WP:SYNTH so I have not added any interpretation, but quoting a book from a proponent of the authorship theory on a topic raised by independent secondary sources is not soapboxing, especially since it is not propounding a theory. It is just reflecting a fact about the diplomatic codes. I can provide independent sourcing on the codes, but that is also forbidden apparently.

The strictures placed on the article to meet the Wikipedia guidelines are extremely difficult to navigate and create many Catch-22s. But I am doing my best to work within those guidelines to accurately reflect the Neville theory while giving it due weight in the light of its status as a fringe theory.

Kfein (talk) 18:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Description Section

I have revised the Description Section to reflect that actual content in each of the main sections of the article. I believe this is the best practice going forward. As we revise each main section, we should look back at the description and make sure it matches. I have retained the content that was already there, I just broke it out into a numbered list and added details from the article itself.

This is good information design. By summarizing the content, people can know what to expect as they read through the article. They can also skip down to the sections of greater interest to them.Kfein (talk) 22:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

This article's subject is not a "theory".

Alexbrn has alluded to the fact that this article's subject is not a "theory", and it most certainly isn't. The so-called "theory" hardly rises to that level, and the article's title should be "Nevillean hypothesis of Shakespeare authorship". It's misleading to so dignify a mass of speculation and conspiracy-mongering adduced, in my opinion, to keep alive a manufactured controversy, one that is quite profitable for some of its proponents in research grants, fellowships, television appearances, book contracts, etc. Carlstak (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, not in the sense of Scientific theory, but certainly within the sense of Conspiracy theory. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:21, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

It is a fringe theory. That is what it is called on Wikipedia. Kfein (talk) 02:38, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Then by your own prescription, it should be "Nevillean fringe theory of Shakespeare authorship", obviously. Carlstak (talk) 03:06, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

It is not my description. It is Wikipedia's. This article is part of a set of articles all with similar titles. They have similar formats. The Wikipedia community has come to a consensus on how to handle these articles. We just came to a new consensus on how to edit this one. That is how Wikipedia works. It has nothing to do with my preferences.Kfein (talk) 03:08, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Don't presume to tell me, as you try to tell everyone else, how WP works. You are not in a position to do that—I can read, thank you. As you said, "It is a fringe theory. That is what it is called on Wikipedia." Perhaps if you spent as much time reading policy as you do attempting to impose your preferred version of the article, and defending your vision of what it should be on talk pages, you might get some where. Carlstak (talk) 03:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Trust me, I am very aware that I have spent all of this time and energy dealing with attacks and insults and accomplished absolutely nothing. But that was the point of this entire exercise, to develop a nihilistic sense for the futility of human thought and action. Thank you for sharing that feeling with me yet again. Kfein (talk) 04:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

You're right that it's not a theory in the conventional sense of the term, in that it lacks any kind of coherence or logical plausibility, but in the land of Shakespeare Authorship the term is applied to the various authorship hypotheses, all of which are merely compilations of non sequuntur. The word "candidate" is another term that isn't used in the conventional sense, in that no election is being held. "Evidence" is another term that is incorrectly used. To the True Believers, every thing is evidence for their guy, and the same "evidence" is used to prove that Oxford or Marlowe or Bacon or Neville was the One True Author, which renders the so-called "evidence" apropos of nothing. Another word wrenched all out of the usual context is "mystery," as in "the mystery of the Shakespeare authorship." There's no mystery about who actually wrote the works; the real mystery is how any person could write them, similar to the mystery of how the Beatles wrote all those songs. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:39, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

So true. Carlstak (talk) 13:29, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Filling in the Section on the Jonson Conspiracy

I think the next step working together as a community is to fill in the section on Jonson's Conspiracy. However, I think this does not just relate to Jonson, it relates to the production of the First Folio. So as we evaluate the sources, we may need to change that heading a bit to accurately reflect them.

I think this is a case where it will be appropriate to reference content directly from Truth Will Out since that it is a RS for its own theory. Apparently it is impermissible to reference any independent scholarship about Ben Jonson. So we are limited to the content of Truth Will Out and the critics of Truth Will Out. Is that the consensus view?

Since it meets all the criteria for an RS, even though it is not an independent source, I think we should also reference the content in My Shakespeare: The Authorship Controversy. That might help in the description of the Neville theory, especially since it is so much more up-to-date than Truth Will Out.

References to primary sources is NOT forbidden on Wikipedia. I think that we should include the complete text of Ben Jonson's epigram to Henry Neville. It is directly relevant to the topic at hand and would be a service to the reader. Whatever relationship Henry Neville and Ben Jonson had, that is the key documentary evidence available at this point. So it would make sense to include it in this article. The previous incarnation of the article had a short quote from it, but in editing it, we are making an editorial judgment. So It would be cleaner just to include the entire thing. It is not very long.

I attempted to add it in previously but it was deleted.

Kfein (talk) 18:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

"Since it meets all the criteria for an RS, even though it is not an independent source...." Weren't you the one telling us about your degree in linguistics? Tom Reedy (talk) 23:11, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The problem is "independent" is used in two different ways in Wikipedia parlance. I don't have the energy to parse it for you now. But once again, your personal attacks and aspersions are inappropriate for this Talk page. Kfein (talk) 01:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

OK, I think I have figured out how to explain it in a way you can understand. If one wanted to confirm a factual detail about Henry Neville's life, Truth Will Out would be undeniably an RS by Wikipedia standards. So for instance, if you wanted to write about when Neville was released from prison on the Southampton wikipedia article, you could cite Truth Will Out, and it would be completely in-line with Wikipedia standards. And in that case, it would be an independent source.

However, the Neville theory is considered a "fringe theory" on Wikipedia. So there is a concern about soapboxing, in other words, using books written by proponents of the fringe theory to promote aspects of their theory. So there is a rule that only topics raised by independent (different meaning here, meaning not a proponent of the fringe theory) secondary sources can be covered in a fringe theory article.

The issue of Ben Jonson's involvement in the conspiracy to hide Neville's authorship (along with Leonard Digges and Hugh Holland, etc.) is something raised often by independent secondary sources, specifically criticizing Truth Will Out. So it is appropriate to refer to Truth Will Out to share the specific arguments and facts they are disputing.

I hope that clarified the issues for you.Kfein (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

"OK, I think I have figured out how to explain it in a way you can understand."

I doubt it, since you don't appear to have any kind of grasp upon it at all.

"If one wanted to confirm a factual detail about Henry Neville's life, Truth Will Out would be undeniably an RS by Wikipedia standards."

Guess again. Given the academic reception the book received (Andrew Hadfield called it "a staggeringly awful book" and that "James and Rubenstein’s sarcasm and logic indicate that they have obtained their information about Tudor times from watching old series of Blackadder."), there is no way the book is a reliable source for anything other than what they say about their nutty theory. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:05, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

The Jonson conspiracy theory (with some variations) is referred to in many fringe authorship theories - it's not specific to Neville. But though the Oxfordian fringe theory heavily relies on a claim of Jonson conspiring with the dedicatees of the First Folio and Edward de Vere's daughters, the Jonson conspiracy claim does not appear in that wikipedia article. it makes sense for the numerous specific alternative authorship articles that share some plot points to be written consistently, so this part of the theory should probably be excluded entirely. The biggest problem with the recent vast expansion of this article is that it violates WP:WEIGHT. "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view." In this instance, the Neville claim is being given undue weight, not only compared to the near-universal majority view, but also in comparison to far more widespread (though just as erroneous) authorship claims. Bomagosh (talk) 03:22, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

This site uses James and Rubinstein as a source. It is written by one of the top historians of the era:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/neville-sir-henry-i-1564-1615

As far as WP:WEIGHT goes, you need to read all the stuff about fringe theories more carefully. This theory shouldn't be included in the article on William Shakespeare, for instance. But this is a separate issue since there is an entire article devoted to it because of its notability and the fact that it is has been written about in many academic publications. The secondary independent sources comment extensively about the Jonson conspiracy so it is definitely correct to write about it in this article. I am not the one who put that section in, it was the experienced Wikipedia editor who rewrote this whole article from scratch based on the strictest standards possible of sourcing and topic. That person was indeed correct to only include topics that are touched on by independent sources, that is exactly the Wikipedia guideline.Kfein (talk) 03:34, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I understand people's desire to turn this into an authorship debate. But that is not the point here. The goal here is to write a good Wikipedia article using Wikipedia standards.Kfein (talk) 03:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Please note, even if Truth Will Out is not an RS in its own right, it is still a RS on its own theory. That was the consensus on the discussion on the Fringe Board which is experienced in dealing with these things. Kfein (talk) 05:04, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Collapse off-topic discussion

Tom Reedy mentions above my degree in linguistics. This is not WP:OUTING. I posted on the Fringe discussion that I studied linguistics as an undergraduate and specialized in lexicography, doing my thesis comparing English and Japanese dictionaries. During that time I also worked as a freelance reader and library researcher for the Oxford English Dictionary and did an internship in Oxford. So I have extensive professional experience working for the premier reference work in the world. I frankly think this is all irrelevant, and I only brought it up in the first place in response to a personal attack. But since it was brought up here, I thought I should clarify, in case anyone thought it might be WP:OUTING. It is not.Kfein (talk) 05:30, 28 December 2019 (UTC) "This is not WP:OUTING." Nobody said it was, so your comment is unnecessary. I was merely pointing out the irony. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC) And you feel it was appropriate to point out the irony on the Talk page? Is that the appropriate use of a Talk page on Wikipedia, to point out the irony of people's backgrounds? Kfein (talk) 06:05, 28 December 2019 (UTC) Well you seem to be filling it up with your stream-of-consciousness musings so I thought I'd interject a bit of levity for those in the peanut gallery. Tom Reedy (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2019 (UTC) My "stream of consciousness" was an attempt to deflect the constant and never-ending personal attacks against me. Compounding that with more personal attacks does not seem to me to be "levity". Kfein (talk) 07:19, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

• We shouldn't be using The Truth Will Out directly as a source without secondary coverage to contextualize what it says. Alexbrn (talk) 07:30, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree completely and I never suggested we do anything else. Kfein (talk) 07:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

An unprofessional and substandard collection of opinions

I found it surprising that Stuart Kells is cited 12 times in such as short page, where the purpose is to summarize Nevillean theory of Shakespeare authorship. Even more so as the citations by Kells are peppered with unprofessional, unserious, and non-academic opinions, such as:

• 1. Kells dismisses... "the clumsiest anagram hunt this author has ever seen". Why do we care what the opinions of Kells are? He wrote a book on topic with thousands of books already, so what?*

• 2. Kells considers... "to make nonsense seem like sense" and that overall the book "uses tricks to enhance its veneer of authority." Again, opinions that are not being substantiated. Why do we care what one author believes? Why do we care what the opinions of Kells are? He wrote a book, so what? He's certainly not the only author with a degree interested in the Shakespearean authorship.*

• 3. "Stuart Kells writes that for the Nevilleans the case seemed proved, but that their exultations were premature." Again, the opinion of a person. Why do we care? There is no reason to cite it.*

• 4. "For Kells, all of the arguments supporting the Nevillean case are fallacious." So what. Why do we care what Kells thinks? If his book is this much of a revelation, let's open a page about it where we can critique the prospective shortcomings. Spontaneously, it does not appear to be a considerable contribution on the topic, with 12 reviews on Amazon. So why is this page peppered with his unsubstantiated opinions?*

• 5. Finally, "Stuart Kells suggests that she may have derived it from the 1917 book Shakespeare and the Founders of Liberty in America by Berkeley professor Charles Mills Gayley." At best, Kells "OPINES JAMES may have derived it from the 1917..." Is this pertinent to the topic? If so, it should be verified and explicated how and why James may have derived it from the book. No Wiki page should read as an opinion piece by one academic trying to bolster their own merits.*

All of the 12 citations are picked from one single book by the author Kells, which is not a scholarly peer-reviewed work. https://www.amazon.com/Shakespeares-Library-Unlocking-Greatest-Literature/dp/1640091831

In conclusion

The book by James and Rubinstein opened up a fascinating new perspective on the authorship question. At the same time, their book suffered from mistakes and being at times being unnecessarily nebulous. The hypothesis may be wrong or it may be correct. If right, we know from history that such an unorthodox and novel idea on a contentious subject will require several new generations of scholars before being accepted among the vast majority in the field.

Opinions of a high-school paper

However, while valid critique of the hypothesis advanced in their book must be part of a Wiki-page, the critique should not read as loose opinions by a high-school student. Unfortunately, this is the case right now as the citations from Mills are substandard, excessive, nonsensical, and unprofessional.

Verificity (talk) 00:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC)