Talk:Cryptozoology

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 6 as Talk:Cryptozoology/Archive 5 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

"According to Paxton"

@Slatersteven:, you've just added "according to Paxton" to the article ([1]). However, that isn't in my original addition because it's without context for the reader. Please either identify Paxton or remove it from the text. Remember, we're writing for the reader, and this isn't helpful for them. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:40, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

The one mentioned on page 579 of the book, the source you are using ("according to Paxton (2011) even though the zoological community does not use the word 'cryptid'..."). Even the source says this is one person view, so we should follow suit and say what the source says.Slatersteven (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

The source doesn't say this is 'one person's view', it cites an academic saying it. There's a big difference. Again, we're writing for readers. Again, please identify the source or remove the caveat, as it looks like gibberish to readers. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:48, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Err it only cites this person, it does not say how widely held it is. Also I have identified the source, the one you used, all I did was add the caveat the source itself uses. I really do not understand what you are talk about. We cannot put words into sources mouths (say as saying that "Fred said X" means the same as "everyone says X").Slatersteven (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm saying dropping a last name into a text without context is bad form: it's bewildering to the reader. Anyway, this appears to refer to Charles Paxton, who is an apologetic cryptozoologist. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Not as much as claiming that something is a fact when it is just one academics opinion.Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

He is a ecologist and skeptic apparently see https://www.skeptic.org.uk/about/eab/ and he does not self-describe as a cryptozologist see https://twitter.com/CharlesPaxton4 although he writes on it. The relevant cite is Paxton, C.G.M. (2011) Putting the “ology” into cryptozoology. Biofortean Notes 1, 7 - 20. As I have said many times in this forum, informed skeptical writers on this topic do not quite take quite the dim view of it as the more extreme editors here. That's why the tone of this article is so not NPOV. Tullimonstrum (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Darren Naish says, "In fact, the whole 'science or pseudoscience' issue is so complex with regard to cryptozoology that I don’t think it's possible to make a simple decision one way or another...", but the scientific consensus is that cryptozology is pseudoscience. Lack and Rousseau (2016} write, "Cryptids are the focus of study in cryptozoology, a field most scientists label as pseudoscientific." As Brian Regal wrote in an essay that appeared in Folklore: An Encyclopedia of Beliefs, Customs, Tales, Music, and Art, "One of the difficulties faced by cryptozoologists is explaining just what they do and how they go about it. Where zoologists, biologists, botanists, and the like have established methodologies for studying living things and general paradigms for making sense of what they are doing, cryptozoologists as yet do not. Though many practitioners attempt to be as scientific as they can, there are no accepted, uniform, or successful methods of pursuing cryptids." Carlstak (talk) 03:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

It's not really a question of how valid the study is. Whether it's the study of ghosts, cryptids, mythology, folklore, Scientology, etc ... they're about as valid as wrestling. But the people who study them exist, the terms exist, many books are written on the subjects, therefore we explain it here at wikipedia but with the caveat that valid scientific methods are not used. Heck the term cryptid is about to be entered into law in the state of Washington. So we explain who these people are and what they believe here in this article, and we explain what type of creatures are considered cryptids over at List of cryptids. That's pretty much it on the front except for any individual creature that has its own article because of notability. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, yeah, per a buffet of policies, the "validity" of the study greatly influences how topics are presented on Wikipedia, from global warming denialism to flat earth theory (most notably WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, in this case). You've been reminded of these policies many times. And what's this about "Heck the term cryptid is about to be entered into law in the state of Washington"? The bill you're talking about didn't happen in 2017, we'll see what happens in 2018. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

HUGE difference between the items you mentioned. So huge it's humorous. As for being reminded, you've been reminded about your hatred for anything crypto-related and your blanket non-consensus removal of the article List of cryptids, so you're in the deep weeds of wiki protocol. I'd be wary of reminding editors about wiki policies (of which WP:FRINGE is not a policy). Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Huge differences? Flat earth theory and global warming denialists are on the same footing here on WIkipedia, because they're both overwhelmingly rejected by mainstream scientists. The same goes for cryptozoology. I feel pretty indifferent about anything "anything crypto-related", but if you've got a problem with Wikipedia policies like WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE or Wikipedia's general approach to WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, you're best served taking them up at their respective talk pages. Find a protocol I've violated and we can talk about it (on my user talk page, rather than clogging up this talk page further). :bloodofox: (talk) 19:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

For starters you can stop redirecting articles, calling things mergers when it is really a deletion, and calling WP:FRINGE a policy. That might help. But when you start prefacing sentences towards me with "You've been reminded of these many times" when you are hip deep yourself in controversy, it raises eyebrows. And yeah, huge differences. Keep things crypto, truthful, and stop mixing up policies with guidelines, and all will be well. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Eh, when editors deal with pseudoscience on Wikipedia, particularly embedded pseudoscience, it's the same situation — you get editors with wacky ideas looking to grasp at straws to maintain their pseudoscience promotional platform (and going to great pains to worm around or split hairs about WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE, etc.), confused editors unfamiliar with the topic caught in the middle, and policy-minded editors looking to solve the problem. Same old, same old. Since there's WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, eventually the problem is solved. In the end, editors who don't abide by Wikipedia policy on pseudoscience eventually realize they've wasted a bunch of time trying to get around it, and that their time was really best spent elsewhere. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

And that policy is very clear that when handling pseudoscience articles we have to be very clear to our readers that it is not true science, and that any "pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." We don't banish things, but we point out so that it's clear to readers that it is a pseudoscience. We have to do that whether it's ghosts, cryptids, mythology, folklore, legends, religion, etc... so that our readers understand what they are reading. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "banish things", but we've definitely got WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, which means we neither adopt pseudoscience POV in article spaces nor do we provide fringe theories undue weight. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

And I'm not sure what you mean. As your UNDUE link says "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth)." Same with cryptozoology, list of cryptids, ghosts, folklore, etc... Every time I read one of your links it all fits well as long as it is explained that it isn't a science. There is no problem here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:58, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The headline proposal is about the merge of the List into the main article. In the course of the discussion, other issues have been raised as well, but they should concern us only to the extent that they affect the orientation and the outcome of the process.
The claim of lack of sources has been raised. The claim can trivially be confirmed since many items have indeed been listed without proper attribution. Naturally, what to do is not a matter for debate: Either proper sourcing is cited or the unreferenced items are to be deleted outright.
The question of the subject's scientific validity has also been tabled, in the context of a possible violation of WP:FRINGE. There is once again some confusion between presentating pseudoscience and supporting pseudoscience: The article "Cryptozoology" is as explicit as it can get about the subject being part of the pseudoscience pantheon, so that no reasonable argument can be made about the article promoting fringe theories, nor one about the List.
The issue of sources, in general, is important, in every article concerning subjects that the community has confirmed as being part of the pseudoscientific canon, e.g. ones on Cryptozoology. Per WP:FRIND, the best sources to use when describing fringe theories are independent reliable sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles. Independent sources are also necessary to determine the relationship of a fringe theory to mainstream scholarly discourse. As long as the content in the article and the List is presented according to that guideline, there can be no violation of WP:FRINGE. (Therefore, any item, in either text, that is presented without following WP:FRIND is to be deleted outright.) Again, we should not be confusing promotion with presentation.
The main proposal can be examined on the basis of the above, then. Should a stand-alone list of "cryptids" exist in Wikipedia or should any such list be merged into "Cryptozoology"?
Guided by WP:MERGEREASON, we see that there is no duplication, no overlap, no issue about context, nor a case of a very short page, unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time. We also note, guided by the same information page that states established practice, that, following a merge, the resulting article would be too long or clunky. Finally, the List meets the WP:CSC criteria; in particular, it satisfies the criterion for encyclopedic and topical relevance, since users interested in the specific branch of the Cryptozoology pseudoscience would quite obviously be interested in the specific objects of this kind of self-proclaimed research. (Some of these arguments have been largely made by participants in the discussion.) The outcome then, can only be, to Retain as separate Wikipedia entries the List and the main article but with caveats: The first is that every listed item must be properly sourced, as already specified, and the second is that in case the list dwindles down to a small number of items, such as 5-6 (e.g. see AfD discussions about the List of housing cooperatives in Canada), a Merge into an appropriate section of the main article would evidently be the best course of action. The Gnome (talk) 11:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

---

I propose that the article List of cryptids be merged into Cryptozoology. As has been noted by Bloodofox over on Talk:List of cryptids, the List of cryptids page may present unjustified promotion of fringe theories, and the majority of cryptids included in the list are unsupported by independent reliable sources. I feel that the "Definition" section, along with perhaps the "Eberhart's classification" subsection, of the List of cryptids article should be integrated into the Cryptozoology page. In regards to the latter element, I think we should consider if devoting such a subsection to Eberhart's definitions would be placing undue weight on his authority. The actual list of cryptids itself can be limited to a section in Cryptozoology under a heading like "List of notable cryptids", only including those whose status as such can be supported by multiple verifiable sources. –Matthew - (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - which many of us disagree is a correct interpretation, so oppose.Slatersteven (talk) 17:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I can see no other way to move forward with the problem article list of cryptids that does not clearly violate WP:PROFRINGE. Sources that do not violate WP:FRIND and WP:ONEWAY mention the same several entities that cryptozoologists fixate on as "cryptids" over and over. This article also discusses the pseudoscientific concept of the cryptid in far more depth than list of cryptids. Pinging editors who frequently edit in these corners: @Tronvillain:, @LuckyLouie:, @Katolophyromai:, and @Alarichall:. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

• Administrator note - Unless you pinged all the people from List Of Cryptids, this is canvassing. I see no no one who opposed the last merge request earlier this year. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

These four editors are by far the most active editors on Wikipedia on the topic of folklore and overlapping pseudosciences like cryptozoology. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

It's canvassing no matter how you slice it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Have you taken the time to read WP:CANVAS? See Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification, for example. I've had disagreement with all of these editors in the past, for one. Second, like I said, they're all by far the most active on these and related topics on the site. Finally, if I recall correctly, only LuckyLouie previously voted on a proposal relating to this topic. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:34, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't care who you've had disagreements with, it's canvassing when you leave out the last merge people which happened only a couple months ago. Anyone closing needs to take this into account. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

So where does it say that in WP:CANVAS, exactly? :bloodofox: (talk) 23:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

You mean where does it talk about bias? When we have an editor who has been biased in the past, admonished by administrators for being biased about List of Cryptids, has tried to remove the topic in the past without any consensus... and then they link several editors from folklore without linking anyone from the recent failed merge on this same topic... you can bet people will think canvassing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:24, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Fyunck, it seems to me that you're making up things as you go along, and I doubt it's helping your case. I get that you've got your heart set on this list remaining exactly as it is, but so do (and so have) a lot of other fringe advocates for a lot of promotional stuff about fringe on this site (which is we have guidelines like WP:FRIND and WP:PROFRINGE). Like the rest of us, you're expected to stick to Wikipedia guidelines and policies when you're dealing with fringe and pseudoscience stuff. Shouting "canvasing!" and being unable to back it up with anything in WP:CANVAS doesn't dispel that. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I don't want this list remaining as is. I want the individual creatures sourced as cryptids/cryptozoological beasts. No source for that term and it should be gone. Could it be merged, of course it could be, but it would be a long article. Your canvassing and your bias against the entire topic as has been proven in the past over and over again, so your motives are extremely dubious on this subject. But anyone can look that up at the talk page and archives at List of Cryptids, so this discussion is pointless. I think this long list warrants an article of its own. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Like anywhere else, if you can find sources that meet WP:FRIND, then we can use them. However, you can't, and that's because they simply don't exist. Myself and other editors have looked. Where they exist, we've built articles around them. As I point out above, academics note that cryptozoologists fixate on the same group of entities from the folklore record over and over again. In their Abominable Science, Prothero and Loxton dedicate a chapter to each: the Bigfoot-yeti complex, Nessie and what cryptozoologists deem to be Nessie-like creatures, and the notorious Mokele-Mbembe. Add chupacabras to the mix and there you have it. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

But you have to take their biases into account. You would expect them not to discuss reptilians, since most of them probably are reptilians and don't want the secret to get out. Agricolae (talk) 17:09, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - No problems the way it is. And this is the wrong place for this request unless you want to merge Cryptozoology into List of Cryptids. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click): As stated in my proposal, I suggested that List of cryptids be merged into Cryptozoology, not the other way around. –Matthew - (talk) 14:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - while at first look the list appears too long to merge, a closer look shows the list includes not only cryptids as defined on Cryptozoology, but also an odd and seemingly arbitrary mix of extinct animals and urban legends (or their rural equivalents), plus at least one conspiracy theory, and this essentially represents a content fork. Better to trim, then harness them. Agricolae (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• at a minimum, each member of the list needs a source indicating that reliable sources consider it part of the "cryptozoology" sphere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.15.255.227 (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support The list of cryptids article seems to include anything that anyone claims is a cryptid. Just by going through several of the articles linked, I've found a few that have no mention of cryptids, or cryptozoology—there's no source on the list article that claims these things are cryptids, and no source on the specific article stating it's a cryptid. That list violates several policies, particularly WP:FRIND and WP:OR. Perhaps the reason that article is so poorly sourced is because independent, reliable sources don't discuss cryptozoology in depth. If that's the case, then that material should not be on wikipedia. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 06:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• NOTE - I just let the List of cryptids talk page folks know about this merge request. Perhaps they'll think it's a good fit to have everything in one giant pot, or perhaps not. Either way the talk page has been notified and the previous merge and deletion participants at that talk page have also been pinged. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - A friendly reminder: after many threads on the question, for better or worse, there is no consensus that cryptozoology sources are unreliable for verifying that something is considered a cryptid (i.e. when not being used to make a scientific claim). The list is too long to merge, is a notable stand-alone list, etc. I don't have it in me to rehash what has already been said in countless talk page threads, discussions of blankings, merge requests, AfDs, noticeboards, etc. Debating whether to take it off my watchlist because it's just exhausting to see one side (typically bloodofox, whose battleground approach to this page I've found problematic for a long time) taking every possible angle to try to nuke the page while others keep adding OR and garbage sources to it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Note this version of this vote, where the editor evidently opposes the vote simply because he thinks I proposed it. He realizes his error, then slightly modifies it to the vote above. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Kindly strike the above nonsense. I undid because I wrote a comment worded as though you proposed it, realized you didn't, then rewrote it. If it were you who proposed it, I would say "see all the many, many past threads where I've responded to your arguments to nuke the page". As it wasn't, I've elaborated a bit. As much as I think you take an exhausting battleground approach to the list (for example this effort to discredit my !vote despite years of commenting on this article), it's not all about you. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:16, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Anyone can click the diff. Both versions focus squarely on me, but protest votes are not the way to improve the project. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

The point is you are not owed a thorough response every time you renew your efforts to kill the list. Anyone can likewise click through the dozens of other threads on the same subject you initiated and/or dominated, where you have presented the same arguments, and where I replied in more detail (but more briefly summarized above). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Once again, I didn't make this proposal. I'll thank you to please drop your endless fixation on me and stick to the topic at hand. We're here to build articles, not grind axes. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:14, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support. My god, that goofball "List of Cryptids" page is an abomination. Merge it with this one, removing the superfluous text that dignifies all the nonsense (i.e., most of the page). Carlstak (talk) 14:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• (Repeat last time) Oppose merge, but clean up the crypids - eg Japanese wolf should not be there, being neither cryptic nor legendary, just extinct. A new list of possibly-not-recently-extinct-after-all animals might be split off (but only recent extinctions, so alleged but unconfirmed Lazarus taxons). That's a very different situation. Johnbod (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Which is (bizarrely) the conversation that led to this merge proposal, the idea that the list needed some tidying up by removing unsourced material.Slatersteven (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Of course, as we've seen, there exists no sources that meet WP:FRIND for about 95% of the extant list entries. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support I would support a merge. The list of cryptid article is not reliably sourced, it reads like a personal opinion. For example Beast of Bladenboro is on the list, but has nothing to do with a cryptid. Also entries on the list like the Bunyip relate to Aboriginal mythology, not cryptids. Skeptic from Britain (talk) 18:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Bunyip - Canberra Times. Beast of Bladenboro - Published Book, and anther published book. These have just not been properly sourced, which they must be in this article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:30, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Apparently, I've tumbled into an alternative reality where the very poorly sourced "List of Cryptids" is seen by some otherwise respectable editors as fit for an encyclopedia. Its scanty sources include The Journal of Scientific Exploration, a pseudo-journal published by the Society for Scientific Exploration, which, according to Kendrick Frazier, Editor of Skeptical Inquirer, publishes "scholarly" articles promoting the reality of dowsing, neo-astrology, ESP, and psychokinesis. The tiny portion of reliably sourced content can easily be merged into this one. Carlstak (talk)

As I said the last time, this is why I come to Wikipedia. If I want facts I use books. What I want is articles and lists about twaddle so I do not have to waste time I might otherwise spend reading sensible stuff. This is just what Wikipedia should be about, the information you do not find is proper encyclopedias (indeed why I would argue it was set up, to end academic control of knowledge).Slatersteven (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Rename the list to List of folklore creatures or something similar, and remove all entries that don't have stand-alone Wikipedia articles. I'd support a merge if the list is short, but in this case merging would make the target article far too large and unwieldy, especially for a topic like this. ~Anachronist (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

  FWIW, there exists Lists of legendary creatures. Also, merging this list into the article would necessitate pruning (something that I think just about everyone agrees the list needs), and so it wouldn't be as long as it is now. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

  It seems to me that pruning would be minimal. Most of the entries have Wikipedia articles. If you remove the ones that don't, and the ones that aren't really "cryptids", then you still have a very long list. As the list stands, it's a good list of creatures having a folklore background (which is different than "legendary") which is why I support renaming. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:32, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

"Most of these entries have Wikipedia articles", true, but those articles also make no mention of cryptozoology and no WP:FRIND sources exist to back their appearance on this list. Additionally, some of these entities stem from fiction, conspiracy theories, or the fossil record. To get an idea about the "criteria" for what led to this list, compare, for example, this and, after receiving scrutiny, this. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose We've been through this merger discussion multiple times before. The consensus has always been in favor of keeping the article. I seriously don't know why people keep on pushing this. Doesn't make any sort of sense. We should be focusing on what on the list should or shouldn't be classified as a "cryptid".--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

This user has engaged in off-site lobbying regarding this topic. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Apparently, I've tumbled into an alternative reality where the very poorly sourced "List of Cryptids" is seen by some otherwise respectable editors as fit for an encyclopedia. Its scanty sources include The Journal of Scientific Exploration, a pseudo-journal published by the Society for Scientific Exploration, which, according to Kendrick Frazier, Editor of Skeptical Inquirer, publishes "scholarly" articles promoting the reality of dowsing, neo-astrology, ESP, and psychokinesis. The tiny portion of reliably sourced content can easily be merged into this one. Carlstak (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support There are now more mainstream sources that dismiss “Cryptid” as a pseudoscientific concept than there were when this list was created. I feel for those who maintain “cryptozoology is an acceptable source for what is a Cryptid” but the problem is, ‘’everything and anything’’ can call itself cryptozoology, and no one can distinguish between Bernard Heuvelmans and crypto-mystery.org. So we have a list that includes myths and nonsense alongside longstanding CZ beliefs. This needs a solution, and a merge and culling is a good start. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect, but to Lists of legendary creatures#cryptids. New to this discussion (saw at ANI) and no horse (unicorn?) in the race, but it seems the inherent issue here is that the proponents of the idea of cryptids treat it as science, while the opponents treat it as folklore. Yet, all cryptids are legendary creatures, with a place in our cultural history that can be easily sourced through texts, but not all legendary creatures are considered cryptids. My suggested merge acknowledges that there is a subset of folklore creatures that is treated differently by some, but keeps everything that isn't sourced with scientific vigor, in one place. Now we just have a merge and format problem. I think the list can be merged for now en masse onto a new section Lists of legendary creatures#cryptids, below the current alphabetical lists, and the cryptozoology article can be edited to point to this list in a more visible way than just as a "see also" entry. I kind of like the table format and wish the Lists of legendary creatures article was the same way, with a photo for the entries, but that's an editing chore. Until an enterprising editor (or editors) can make the list formats consistent, they would sit on the same page. How to handle duplicates? One idea - add the phrase (cryptid) to each relevant entry in the various alphabetical lists, which would link to the cryptozoology article? If all the entries were turned into a table, the cryptid field could be sortable. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:09, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

We've previously had a merge discussion regarding merging it in with Lists of legendary creatures, but it didn't pass. Another issue to consider here is that many of these entities stem entirely from the folklore record, but some come from the fossil record. Additionally, since this is an obscure pseudoscience, bringing this stuff out of the cryptozoology sphere inevitably raises issues with WP:UNDUE and WP:ONEWAY. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd be curious to see that discussion. If there's a fossil record for a cryptid, then they aren't folklore or pseudoscience anymore, right? Would they then still technically qualify as cryptids as defined in this discussion? TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:14, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no technical definition of a cryptid as you are trying to apply. The List page gives an extensive lists of the types of things that might qualify, but this is just one person's opinion. Basically, a cryptid is simply any legend/myth/fossil/recently extinct/hoax/conspiracy theory/alien life form any self-declared cryptozoologist is interested in and/or personally thinks may still roam the planet, but which is not accepted as an extant organism by the scientific community. That makes 'technically qualify' a non-sequitur. If there is a fossil, then the existence of the species is not pseudoscience, but its classification as a cryptid (implying survival beyond the time period accepted by mainstream science) often is pseudoscience nonetheless. Agricolae (talk) 15:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Agricolae. If anyone can declare themselves part of cryptozoology, then anything can be defined as a cryptid (e.g. "slenderman") - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Can we just keep this focused on the merger for now?Slatersteven (talk) 20:22, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - the inclusion criteria for the list have always been relatively undefined, essentially amounting to "anything with an article ever mentioned by a cryptozoologist" as well as "anything fitting this particular cryptozoologist's criteria as 'under the cryptozoological umbrella'." It's allowed the list to balloon almost endlessly to include known hoaxes, folklore, mythology, and ancient reports, while a list of subjects described by reliable sources as "cryptids" would be a fraction of the size and be easily included on the cryptozoology page. --tronvillain (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support In general list of X articles add little of value that couldn't be better used in a more complete article on the subject. The fact that this is, being kind, a list of folkloric story characters, doesn't do anything to improve its independent notability. Merge per WP:DUE Simonm223 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - there are a lot of cryptids out there, and cryptozoology as a subject could use a lot more coverage than it has now. Keep the two articles, in hopes that someday a knowledgeable editor can expand wikipedia's coverage of the subject. Cryptozoology might be a pseudoscience, but it is also very popular.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 12:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm choosing to interpret, "there are a lot of cryptids out there," as, "the monster in the woods / in the lake / on the tundra is a common folkloric trope," and you'd certainly be correct that's true. But it doesn't follow that Wikipedia needs to include an exhaustive catalog of examples of the trope; that's what TV Tropes is for. We should be discussing how this meme has evolved through history, providing relevant examples as needed. But that's what's going on in the Cryptozoology article already, which renders the list article redundant. Simonm223 (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

As I have aid before, this is just want I want Wikipedia for, to provide me with an easy to access list of "the stuff people believe". I want lists of ghost sightings, UFO encounters (with or with out Aryan babes wanting to sire children by inbred farmers), lists of lake monsters ect.Slatersteven (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTCATALOG disagrees with you on that. Suggest you go here for your list of stuff needs: [2] Simonm223 (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

You know how many "list" articles there are on Wikipedia?.... countless. Whether it's concerts, book characters, tv episodes, umpires, songs, etc... Many of the individual things on lists have never been notable, but together they are notable as a list. Consensus is far and away to keep lists, and this is just another list. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

It may be popular (I myself find cryptozoology interesting), but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be subjected to scrutiny as a pseudoscience. As a pseudoscience, we should strive to give information presented in cryptozoology-related articles due weight per WP:PSCI, and this List of cryptids can be shortened and integrated into the Cryptozoology article. Many of the cryptids currently on the list are not even supported by multiple, independent, reliable sources, and that's clearly a major problem. –Matthew - (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Can I also ask that we only discus merger with this article, anything else only confuses the issue and makes it hard to determine consensus. Any renaming suggestions should be made at the list of Cryptids. and merges with any other pages should be discuses at those pages, not here.Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

You can ask, but if someone has a better way to addresses the concerns raised with the page while still satisfying those who want no change, I would rather that possibility be part of the discussion, so that we can perhaps (I know, wishful thinking) arrive at the best solution rather than just the least inferior of the original two options raised (or worse, another 'no consensus'). Agricolae (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

For the purposes of this discussion, a "Rename" or something similar would pres umably be an "Oppose" unless subsequently clarified along the lines of "or a merge". --tronvillain (talk) 18:52, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment : This isn't a merge proposal, this is a thinly veiled deletion proposal. Why not list it as such? ApLundell (talk) 21:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

It would all be merged, but it would still need a massive amount of sourcing. If Cryptozoologists don't discuss these critters then they should never have been added to this list to begin with. The last deletion discussion was a snowball keep, so that's out. Whether it's located separately or all together in one article is all we are determining. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

A proposal for a partial merger (as so many mergers are) is still a merge proposal. --tronvillain (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

@ApLundell: This is most certainly not a motion for deletion. As stated in my proposal, I'm suggesting that List of cryptids be merged into Cryptozoology. Essentially, any verifiable information currently present on List of cryptids and not on Cryptozoology should be added to Cryptozoology, and the list of cryptids itself should be limited to one well-sourced section within the Cryptozoology article. –Matthew - (talk) 14:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Strongly support merge I did not initially support this proposal because I thought that, even though cryptozoology is obviously bunk, it was still notable enough for us to have a "List of cryptids." My initial view was that the list merely needed to be cleaned up, sorted out, and everything removed that was not cited to reliable, scholarly sources. There are scholarly sources written about what fringe theorists believe, so I thought that keeping a highly revised version of the list was reasonable. However, I have given this a great deal of thought and I have now come to the conclusion that the list is unwarranted, but for entirely different reasons than what Bloodofox and MatthewHoobin have already enumerated above.

The problem I have with the article "List of cryptids" is summed up in this question: "What exactly would go in the article 'List of cryptids' if we kept it?" Fundamentally speaking, the definition of the word "cryptid" is "a creature that some proponents of cryptozoology believe in but whose existence is not accepted by mainstream science." We could also define it as "any hypothetical creature whose existence is unverified." The problem is that both of those definitions are far too broad for us to make a definitive list on the subject because there will always be so-called "cryptids" that people come up with that are too new or too obscure for us to know about.

Having a "List of cryptids" is like having a "List of imaginary animals"; quite simply, the fact that they are imaginary means that people will always be coming up with new ones and that it is impossible to catalogue all of them in any manner resembling a comprehensive approach. An encyclopedic list can only be made on a subject that is finite, such as List of Mesopotamian deities, List of Greek mythological figures, List of valkyrie names, or even List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events, because, in all those areas, while the number of entries may be vast or even growing, at any given time, the number of entries belonging there is finite. Boiled down: the number of cryptids that could possibly exist is infinite. That makes it impossible for us to list them all encyclopedically.

Furthermore, from casually looking around, while I have found reputable sources discussing cryptozoology itself, I am not finding any reputable sources specifically listing individual cryptids like our article currently does. I think that, really, in order to have a case here, we would need to find at least one academic source that attempts to list notable cryptids and, as far as I am currently aware, no such source exists. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Technically, lists don't have to be complete if (WP:CSC) Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia. The relevant consideration here is probably WP:LSC, which says Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed (for example, lists of unusual things or terrorist incidents), it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources given with inline citations for each item. Relatively few of the entries on the list of cryptids would meet this, which is what makes it possible to merge the rest into Cryptozoology itself. --tronvillain (talk) 23:05, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, that's only one criteria for lists. We also have lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of Dilbert characters or List of paracetamol brand names. That is what this list is also about. Now the good thing is we can probably source most of the list per cryptozoology, just like Dilbert characters, but they do need to be sourced. There are many many lists like this at wikipedia. However whether we want the list to be included at the parent article is the discussion. It was deemed by a snowball that we keep the list just a couple months ago. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

But this brings us back to the same problem. There is no reliable source for Dilbertology that is going to do more than list a few of the main characters. All the rest are dependent on Dilbertologists digging through the primary record and deciding for themselves which characters they think should be there. The result is an arbitrary list based on each editor's personal criteria, mostly uncited with most of the cites that are there representing original research. Yeah, let's emulate that - or have we already? Agricolae (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

We don't want them uncited. There are Dilbert books where characters are found, and posting those to a Dilbert character article is fine. We have lists of Nirvana concert dates too. No one complains and the articles are no big deal.... EXCEPT anything cryptozoology related. It's unfair to the consensus on these articles at wikipedia. We have lists of non-notable Grand Slam tennis chair umpires. Very tough to source and no articles for any of them individually, but it serves a purpose. And it's not arbitrary if the items in question can be found in published works, be it news, magazine or books. These creatures had better be listed in one of those or we should throw it out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click): It seems like you're implying that there is some sort of conspiracy going on to target cryptozoology-related articles on Wikipedia. I can assure you that, for me, that is not my intention. The reason that I suggested this merger proposal is because I feel that such a merger would be an improvement on the current state of things, and also, I find cryptozoology interesting. I have no personal interest in Dilbert, Nirvana concert dates, or umpires, and so I'm not involved with those topics. If someone wants to go clean up those articles, then they're more than welcome to do so. –Matthew - (talk) 14:46, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@MatthewHoobin: Not you in particular, but there has been recently where administration had to step in to fix things. I have no quarrel with it being merged into a single article, I just disagree. Usually when a list on a main article gets too big you split it off to create a separate article, not the other way around. We already merged "Cryptid" into "List of cryptids", to me those items belong in this separate article. The article a couple months ago was important enough for a snowball keep, so it can't be a sidestep to deletion. A sidestep was tried another time with a different merge request and also failed. So do I think that's the aim of some here again... yes I do, so I'll be watching for that closely whether it stays or gets merged. I don't like shenanigans when they go on at wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

That there was consensus to not merge to List of legendary creatures is irrelevant to merging to Cryptozoology. --tronvillain (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click): I completely understand that discussions and disagreements on Wikipedia can be frustrating, but we have to keep in mind that cryptozoology is a pseudoscience. Per WP:PSCI, it has to be subjected to a certain level of scrutiny in order to ensure that information therein is given due weight. –Matthew - (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Undue weight when talking anything science related, I agree. It's not science. It's fantasy like ghosts, mythology, Game of Thrones, folklore, Dilbert, tv show characters, etc. We make sure readers know it is a pseudoscience when creating such lists. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:08, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Again, you seem to be conflating and expressing confusion about some key concepts here. The umbrella of folklore includes subjects like recipes, jokes, and games, as well as topics like ghosts and genres like myth. Pseudoscience is when stuff like ghost hunting or Young Earth creationism is presented as science by proponents, which is where WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE and WP:FRINGE come into play. You'd help your case by getting your concepts straight. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I noticed you left out mythology. But essentially you are correct with "presented as science." Don't present it as science and all is well. The problems arise when we have a science article on Earth geology and pseudoscience wants to jump in with all their ridiculous theories. That's fringe, that's undue weight, that's what we don't want. A couple articles on crypto-crud and the beasts they like to talk about is just fine when presented as such and nothing more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

"Left out mythology"? Take a closer look at that response. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Not entirely fair. I'm in favour of merge on the grounds that I am a bit hardline on WP:NOTCATALOG and have expressed that opinion elsewhere. Simonm223 (talk) 12:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Fyunck(click): You may want to take note of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because we have a list of something does not necessarily mean we should. Furthermore, in all the cases you have listed, the number of items belonging on the list is finite. The number of Dilbert characters is limited by how many of them Scott Adams creates; whereas with cryptids, anyone can invent a new one at any time in any place for any reason and anyone can go hunting for them. Furthermore, in the case of folkloric creatures that cryptozoologists have hijacked as "cryptids," there is the problem of demarcation: Which of them are "cryptids" and which of them are not? Are unicorns "cryptids"? How about leprechauns? Pixies? All of those are creatures from traditional folklore that, at least at various times in the past, many people seriously believed in. It is certainly plausible that someone today might think they are real and go hunting for them, but none of them are currently listed at List of cryptids. --Katolophyromai (talk) 12:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fyunck(click), you realize that the criteria for lists like Dilbert characters is "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria", right? Though with Dilbert characters it's "most" rather than "every", which may or may not be problematic. This is not an analogous list - there is no canon strip which could in principle be combed through to verify the existence of an entry, and regardless, Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed (for example, lists of unusual things or terrorist incidents), it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources given with inline citations for each item" still applies. --tronvillain (talk) 12:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned Dilbert, but there are probably thousands. And we do need inline sources, I didn't say otherwise. I don't think many of those thousands have the inline citations, but they should. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Can we stop commenting on users please, it adds nothing to the debate. If you have a complaint about a user take it to their talk page or report them.Slatersteven (talk) 18:08, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose (partial): List of cryptids, despite its name, is not actually a list of cryptids - it includes all kinds of legendary, mythological, folkloric, anecdotal, misidentified, etc creatures. Obviously it makes no sense whatsoever to merge all of that into this article, since the vast majority of it is not relevant to cryptozoology and would have to be deleted. From reading the arguments here, I get the sense that that's the point of this proposal: editors are so frustrated with the disagreements and slow progress on that article that they've concluded deletion is the best course of action. Personally, I absolutely do think this article should include a brief overview of the notable cryptids, but what to do about the rest of list of cryptids is an entirely separate issue and has nothing to do with this page. It should be discussed there, more comprehensively. -- bornLoser (talk) 15:59, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Why the hell has this not be closed yet? How long do we need?Slatersteven (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2018 (UTC) And 2 months later, why the hell is still open?Slatersteven (talk) 18:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

There's a request for closure on the admin noticeboard as of today. --tronvillain (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Late to this party, but I oppose this proposal, and Fyunck's reasoning sums up my thoughts on the matter quite well. Joefromrandb (talk) 06:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Still not closed, why?Slatersteven (talk) 12:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

No one's answered the request for closure yet I guess. --tronvillain (talk) 14:08, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addendum by the closer

Greetings, everyone. Looking at post-closure developments, I believe some clarification is in order about sources. As was pointed out in the closing, per WP:FRIND, the best sources to use when describing fringe theories are independent reliable sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles. Independent sources are also necessary to determine the relationship of a fringe theory to mainstream scholarly discourse. Furthermore, it was pointed out that "as long as the content in the article and the List is presented according to that guideline, there can be no violation of WP:FRINGE," and that "therefore, any item, in either text, that is presented without following WP:FRIND is to be deleted outright."

This has been wrongly interpreted as a wholesale ban of using primary sources for the article and/or the list. It is most definitely not. The guidance offered by WP:FRIND refers to the obligation to have independent sources when describing fringe theories, i.e. not to allow only the voices of those theories' supporters to be heard. (I.e. if a point about a fringe theory is presented in the article without having a citation to independent sources, then it has no place in the article. If a pseudoscientific subject is presented solely on the basis of independent sources that is perfectly acceptable.)

However, the value of primary sources cannot be ignored. Primary sources do have a place in Wikipedia, even in articles about pseudoscience, fringe theories, and superstitions. The use for primary sources about beliefs in pseudoscience answers the question what exactly are they saying. Per WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD, a primary source is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources. In so many words, the presentation of beliefs in Cryptozoology may (but does not have to) be made with references to primary sources, in order to have an explicit and accurate presentation of its proponents beliefs, statements, claims, and so on, though it must be balanced and countered at all times by text and references from reliable, independent sources.

Even more so in the List of cryptids: We can confidently assert that not all items proclaimed by Cryptozoologists are mentioned, let alone discussed, in texts by scientists. The use of primary sources, therefore, is not forbidden at all; one might say it's unavoidable - as unavoidable as quoting from any text by astrologers or alchemists in the aforementioned context. The classification by Eberhart, for instance, is necessary in the List since it is foundational to the list of cryptids, irrespective of its scientific value. Take care, all. -The Gnome (talk) 08:03, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Hold on, the classification by Eberhart being "foundational to the list of cryptids" is nowhere established in that RfC. --tronvillain (talk) 13:27, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Concur, there's no evidence of Eberhart's classification being something anybody other than he uses. And frankly it's ridiculously broad. Basically it boils down to "a cryptid is whatever I say it is." Simonm223 (talk) 13:34, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I'll point out that "primary" doesn't necessarily mean "bad" or "unreliable" all the time, but unless the criteria is going to be "anything ever mentioned by a self-proclaimed cryptozoologist, regardless of how it is described in reliable sources" (in that case the name should probably be changed), allowing the list to be sourced to cryptozoology proponents is astonishing. --tronvillain (talk) 13:45, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

The point I clarified is that listing cryptids according to cryptozoologists' beliefs is not disallowed at all. The arguments (pro and per sources mostly con) about Cryptozoology itself are and should be extensively made in the main article; not so much here. The continued controversy may be due to the passion about preserving Wikipedia as a fountain of scientific truth but nowhere in this closing has it been suggested that the scientific viewpoints are not presented, and strongly too. Nonetheless, everyone should bear in mind that if only reliable, scientific, independent sources were to be used, the List of cryptids would be empty! If editors believe that the very existence of such a List promotes pseudoscience then they should submit both the List and the main article for deletion. -The Gnome (talk) 14:13, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Except that it wouldn't be empty. There are creatures that are clearly established in reliable non-profringe sources as being described as "cryptids", including Bigfoot, Yeti, Nessie, sea serpents, Chupacabra, yowie, thylacines, and so on. --tronvillain (talk) 14:22, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Could you then provide the source that describes these as crytpids, are we not supposed to be adding them?Slatersteven (talk) 14:28, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

As I mentioned over there (directly above a comment by you actually), Abominable Science specifically mentions Bigfoot, Yeti, Nessie, sea serpents, and Mokele Mbembe as being described as cryptids. --tronvillain (talk) 14:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

AS I do not have access to it I am asking you then to provide the cites.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Aha. Sure, no problem. Loxton, Daniel; Prothero, Donald R. (2013). Abominable Science: Origins of the Yeti, Nessie, and other Famous Cryptids. Columbia University Press. pp. 50–369. ISBN 978-0-231-52681-4. Bigfoot is chapter 2 (pages 50–104), the Yeti is chapter 3 (pages 105–161), Nessie is chapter 4 (pages 162–227), sea serpents are chapter 5 (pages 228–326), and Mokele Mbembe is chapter 6 (pages 327–369).--tronvillain (talk) 17:16, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Does it list any others?Slatersteven (talk) 17:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

No, that's it, but I've definitely seen references for the Yowie and Bunyip recently. I'll see if I can dig them up. --tronvillain (talk) 18:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I understand all your other points as consequences of policy and reasonable conclusions from the merger proposal, but your claim that Eberhart's classification is "necessary" is in no way established by the RFC, and is indeed completely outside the scope of the discussion. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 17:44, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Minor terminology improvements

In the section Terminology, history, and approach, a few changes were made, as follows:

• Struck "colleagues" from the introduction of Bernard Heuvelmans & Sanderson, in the paragraph about the origin of the term "cryptozoology" ("cryptozoology originates from the works of colleagues Bernard Heuvelmans, a Belgian zoologist, and Ivan T. Sanderson"), since the pair were not colleagues in all their works.
• Amended sentence about origin of the title term (from "The term cryptozoology dates from cryptozoologist circles from" to "The term cryptozoology dates from"), since those who invented the term "cryptozoology" cannot already have been cryptozoologists.
• Changed letter from cap to lower case ("in the Summer summer issue of the International Society of Cryptozoology newsletter") according to MOS:SEASON.
• Replaced loaded word ("hunt") with common one ("search") in "In their hunt search for these entities, cryptozoologists may employ").

Also tagged paragraph for the need of citations. -The Gnome (talk) 13:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to go over that, The Gnome. I've removed the citation request because it is in fact referenced—the entire paragraph is cited to the reference provided at the end of the paragraph (Loxton, Daniel and Donald Prothero. 2013. Abominable Science: Origins of the Yeti, Nessie, and other Famous Cryptids, p. 304-305.). :bloodofox: (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

That's just fine, :bloodofox:. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• The word "Cryptozoology" contains indeed a component of Greek origin, but, to be precise, it's not the verb κρύπτω ("[I] hide") but the component κρυπτο- ("hidden"), which is used in many composite words, e.g. κρυπτονόμισμα ("cryptocurrency"), κρυψορχία ("cryptorchidism"), κρυπτογραφία ("cryptography"), etc. -The Gnome (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Nicki Park and the Canadian Encyclopedia

So, recently Fyunck has been adding here and elsewhere quoting this definition of the term cryptid from a rather poor entry on Sasquatch in the Canadian Encyclopedia:

"Sasquatch is a cryptid — a creature whose existence is suggested, but has not yet been confirmed by the scientific community." ([3])

Not only is this exactly how cryptozoologists define themselves and not at all how independent sources define the term, the Canadian Encyclopedia article does not at any point mention that cryptozoology is a psuedoscience. The entry is authored by Nicki Thomas, about whom we're provided no information other than that she's authored three other totally unrelated entries for the Canadian Encyclopedia ([4]). In our article, this definition is presented alongside an entry by the Oxford English Dictionary, the English language's most esteemed dictionary. This is undue emphasis on cryptozoologist self-definition. :bloodofox: (talk) 08:37, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Just so we are clear, the reference has been in the Cryptozoology article for quite awhile. The reference was only deleted just yesterday for some reason. I assumed an error, but it is now clear it was no error. It was a deliberate removal of an encyclopedia source because someone doesn't like it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:34, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

That source hasn't been on this article for a very long time, if ever. When did you think you added this dubious source, exactly? :bloodofox: (talk) 09:43, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I re-added it right after you deleted it yesterday. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:52, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Care to provide a diff of me removing it? It appears from the article's history that you just added it. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:53, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I see, it was a part of a note ([5]), and you expanded it to make it more prominent in the article ([6]). Welp, if you think it's reliable, you'd be doing yourself a favor by engaging in discussion as to why, as it sure doesn't look reliable after I checked it out, and an edit war isn't going to get you anywhere (especially when you decide to remove uncontroversially reliable material while reinstating Thomas's entry—not a good look). Was it you who introduced this dubious source to begin with? :bloodofox: (talk) 09:57, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

No it was not him [[7]], you could have bothered to check this yourself.Slatersteven (talk) 10:08, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

See below. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

So @The Gnome: why did you add this, is it an RS?Slatersteven (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Who are they?Slatersteven (talk) 10:03, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Now I also see what happened. This was originally on the List of cryptids article and someone (The Gnome I think) merged some contents into Cryptozoology with no accreditation or acknowledgement of where it came from, who wrote it, etc... that could actually be against wikipedia policy. Then bloodofox deleted it. That type of thing should never happen, but it may not be BFs fault in not having noticed the bad error. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Was it you who originally added it to list of cryptids? I can't recall at this point. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Why not look, I did here.Slatersteven (talk) 10:19, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I'd rather ask. If you want to sort through a thousand edits, go ahead. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:23, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Then please stop making unsubstantiated accusations you have not conformed.Slatersteven (talk) 10:27, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Nor can I, but it could certainly have been me. Yeah, I could have been the one screwed out of both dictionary and encyclopedia credit, since it sounds familiar. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:20, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I added the OED entry (and nearly everything else on this article), but I would not have added the Canadian Encyclopedia articles for the reason I outline above. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:23, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Hasty generalization?

I'm not sure if the entire field of cryptozoology can be classified as pseudoscience. Cryptozoologist's claims range from obvious nonsense to theories that could reasonably be true. And I think there are actually cryptozoologists who adhere to scientific conduct (but also examples of the outright opposite). One should not hastily dismiss all claims made by those people, because doing so without one's own scientific evidence would be pseudoscience itself. The tragedy about cryptozoology is that many people spam the world with fake evidence and contrived stories about the alleged creature, no matter if it really exists or not. There are also numerous horror stories about known animals, like wolves, for example - the "big bad wolf" folklore. One the other hand, there are cryptids which are definitely known not to exist, like the slender man, which have nevertheless caused huge hypes. In summary, due to many (but not all) self-declared cryptozoologists uncritically spreading fairy tales and conspiracy theories, we can never say whether they are right or wrong. But that does not mean that everything they claim is nonsense. And the few cryptozoologists which take their subject serious are oftentimes drowned and unheard in these mass hysterias, whatever their result is. In addition, should a cryptozoologist actually proof a cryptid to exist in reality, he/she is no longer a cryptozoologist as the creature is no longer a cryptid.

So: Yes, one has to be very critical about the claims of cryptozoologists. But declaring them as bullshit based only on personal disbelief is not what the scientific community should do. This would not be scientific conduct. --2003:E7:7727:B678:1495:47C1:5F30:F615 (talk) 21:54, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

How would you prove the non-existence of the non-verifiable scientifically? For science and critical thinking, it is more constructive to not assume its existence until evidence exists, as well as to accept evidence that disproves previous hypotheses (which should be falsifiable too). In any case this is not a forum to discuss the topic (WP:NOTFORUM) and the articles should not be based on editor opinions but shoud instead summarize reliable sources (WP:RS, WP:CITE). We also have the WP:PSCI policy about clearly indicating when sources show a topic to be pseudoscience. You are welcome to cite reliable sources to make your point. WP:FIXBIAS contains other suggestions. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 00:25, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Well as far as I know the scientific consensus is that it is pseudoscience. It is telling that most (are there any who are not) are not Professional zoologists or professors of zoology. They tend to be professional cryptozoologists.Slatersteven (talk) 09:31, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

That should be easy to verify, "scientific consensus is that it is pseudoscience", do that and there is nothing more to say. And the discussion of shortcomings in the presentation of this topic is the purpose of the page, that is how articles that are labelled pseudo-science ever got improved; it is a forum for discussion of that. cygnis insignis 12:51, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Look at the history of this talk page and you will see all the academic sources on this subject. That is because the subject is largely ignored by genuine scientific zoologists (a sign its not take seriously).Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

This has been proven over and over by a couple of zealots on this talk page to their own satisfaction is not a source, it is an example of individual's self righteous indignation that another belief contradicts their own. I have watched similar pages for years, occasionally I put an endorsement when someone points out the what is obvious to a reasonably well informed reader. Some one has a bug stuck in their ear, heard something implausible defended as cryptozoology and has determined that cryptozoology must only be about implausible hypotheses. There is no counter to what actually happened, that the label cryptozoology was appropriated by those promoting their idea. Is is nothing to do with science, those who defend some rigid nineteenth century idea that everything is known and explained in a canon of knowledge determined by some infallible authority. This is not about scientific method and has nothing to do with presentation of facts at wikipedia. My rant, the flaws of which will be seized upon, no doubt, but I have little patience for pseudosceptics and their personal attacks on other users. There is a world outside of wikipedia talk pages, I know a little about both and how to edit sources. Nothing personal in this Slater, excuse where that is not clear. cygnis insignis 14:15, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

There is a world outside of wikipedia talk pages Indeed, Wikipedia is not the place for that debate, scientific journals or usenet, forum sites, etc, should be. Frivolous name-calling ("pseudoskepticism") also goes against WP:AGF and WP:NPA: discuss the content, not the editors (WP:FIXBIAS for more information). —PaleoNeonate – 14:26, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

As long as you you are equitable in calling out users who cross that boundary, the article should improve. Is that what you are putting your hand up for, moderating the discussion here to facilitate the article improvement? cygnis insignis 14:48, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I am one of those who say that the scientific consensus (based upon what the RS say) is that it is a pseudoscience. And your characterization is a PA.Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Disputing there a scientific consensus in not a PA, some one disagreeing is not a form of negotiable wiki-currency. I respect that it is an article of faith for another flavour of 'believers'. Calling unnamed users pseudo-skeptics is a PA, those I had in mind are not present if that matters, probably not if it gains leverage for an absent consensus. I personally envy believers, for their self assuredness, but not those who seek to root out heresy and use wikipedia to propound what irks them enough to perpetuate discussion until serious editors walk away. The page is an essay, not a wikipedia article. cygnis insignis 15:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

No saying that users are "a couple of zealots" is. I oppose any attempt to change this to say anything other then this is a pseudoscience, and that is my lat post.Slatersteven (talk) 15:53, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I never objected to article improvements here, I only object to leave aside independent sources and the policy on pseudoscience. You still have not proposed a reliable independent source that contradicts that it's pseudoscience. I just did a search here in a directory about pseudoscience and come up with 427 matches for cryptozoology. Assuming that authors like Shermer, Prothero, Regal, Pigliucci, Boundry and Smith are all "faithful pseudoskeptics" (if that even exists) and drop their works about skepticism and pseudoscience, one of those sources is a tertiary encyclopedia, SAGE Encyclopedia of Time, which has a short article. This article is interesting in that it first describes cryptozoology as a mix of biology and anthropology to investigate and attempt to find creatures hypothesized to exist but without evidence of it yet, then mentions cases of old reports about animals which have since been found, like Koala. It then notes that it has acquired a bad reputation as a pseudoscience because of the lack of critical thinking and solid research done by many of its proponents. It also says that it should not include the supernatural (my note: yet in the popular literature finding such associations is not difficult). —PaleoNeonate – 17:19, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I am not disparaging published authors, the article's first assertions are not supported by the content. I'm not asserting that anyone who breathes the word is an unreliable source, or that those interested are in a cult, others are referring to the first line of this article as carte blanche to damn any published, respected and utterly uncontroversial author who use a reference cryptozoology in even the most benign and factual way possible. Which field of science determines what is pseudo-science? And a subculture? A subculture of what? Anthropology has its own discord, it is or is not science according to 'anthropologists', and those who claim verifiable results in the field are likely to claim other anthropologists are pseudo-scientists if given the opportunity to print that without repercussions. cygnis insignis 18:44, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

You said your ramblings about pseudoskepticism, faith or believers were neither about us nor about the source's authors. Then what were they about, and what about this use of zealot? You are an editor was well as we are and can certainly participate to improve the article by editing it, proposing alternative sentences or providing sources, instead of only complaining. You didn't even comment on the source I proposed that may allow changes such as mentions of biology and anthropology and perhaps instead of "is a pseudoscience ..." something similar to "has acquired a bad reputation as a pseudoscience ...<reasons>", etc. As for the subculture, I think that it relates to the popular culture surrounding it, including sensationalist TV shows (a bit like for the UFO subculture). Various authors refer to it as a culture or subculture, or focus on its American cultural aspects. —PaleoNeonate – 00:25, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

A trend that locks articles, "pseudo-science" is little more than a cudgel and license to bypass regular process. I'm commenting on zealotry, but I had a couple of users in mind and vented on their actions. Do you wnt me to name them, it won't be helpful. Who are you speaking for, who is "us"? This is what I am opposed to on similar articles, an "us and them" approach. I didn't comment on what I already know, and I am not proposing to edit it. There is nothing stopping you, as a wikipedia editor, from correcting an absolute assertion yourself, with your source. Popular culture is a subculture? cygnis insignis 06:44, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry if I have led the discussion somehow away from the topic of the article. I wanted to point out that some formulations in the article give me as the reader the impression that cryptozoology is generally some sort of 'chasing rainbows'. What would be a very premature conclusion, because the extent to which we can rule out the existence of the cryptids varies among them. And in fact, there have been true scientists working on such theories, e.g. there were sonar searches for "Nessie" (which found no evidence for its existence). And there are certainly psychologists who are interested in the social phenomena around cryptozoology (like 'Why do people believe in the Bigfoot?'). I'm not a "friend" of cryptozoology in general, rather someone who asks 'Do we really know everything we think we know?', and I try to see such theories from a neutral and logical point of view.

I also can't rule out that my perception of an overtly critical article is distorted somehow, and that the descriptions are actually perfectly fine. I'm on the autism spectrum and sometimes interpret such things differently from most others, although I don't really know why. And my social skills aren't that great in addition (which would explain if my previous post was somehow offensive or out of line). I basically know Wikipedia Talk Page rules, but struggle at times with realizing if I'm right now sticking to them or not...

What I definitely didn't want is starting a heated unobjective debate, if this should be the case here. If I am being a troll here it's right now unintentional. --2003:E7:7727:B648:B182:B73B:453E:15D2 (talk) 01:12, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for my part, the perspective is well rounded, coherent and not in the least objectionable to me. cygnis insignis 03:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I have stumpled over an interesting theory that tries to explain many telltales about cryptid animals. Instead of insisting on the present-day existence of those creatures, the theory claims that they are leftovers of a cultural memory about now-extinct species that humans have met millenia ago. For instance, the ebu gogo and related small cryptid apes in indonesia are claimed to be telltales about encounters with Homo floresiensis (or Homo luzonensis??) some 50000 years ago. And all bigfoot-like cryptids shall be cultural memories about gigantopithecus, perhaps mixed with misidentified bears (or, in case of the Yowie, kangaroos). Is this cryptozoology? I guess so. I've read about this theory in articles which appeared 'half-scientific' to me, but no serious scientific papers. A partially accepted theory is that of the poukai in New Zealand being identical to Haast's eagle.

I just wanted to show that many people try to explain the 'sightings' of weird surreal creatures, and they take various approaches from different disciplines of science and pseudoscience. It's more than just a subculture of crackpots. --2003:E7:7727:B606:B8A3:AE38:4E5C:6714 (talk) 22:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I suppose that is akin to something I read that suggests that we try to fill in the blanks, the diversity of other animals that any thoughtful animal would expect to have around. I'll try to remember where that was. cygnis insignis 03:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

When it comes to Mokele-mbembe, Nessie or dragons, the theory you are talking about becomes what you called "obvious nonsense". It would mean that early humans still witnessed live dinosaurs, which science agrees upon is absurd. In this case it's more likely that humans found dinosaur bones which fuelled their fantasy. Maybe it was the same with Homo floresiensis. 50000 or 100000 years of verbally transmitted information sounds rather unlikely from a scientific point of view, and if it occured it probably got modified a lot over time, so it will be largely counter-factual nowadays. Which means your theory fits well into the field of cryptzoology. Haast's eagle is different as it is just a couple of centuries ago, a much more realistic story.

The more generalized theory mentioned by cygnis insignis is familiar to me. It says like: We are uncomfortable with knowing (nearly) everything in the world, we still seek mysterious places and unexplainable phenomena, and we pull them out of our fantasy when they are no longer in the outside world. (Not that we really know everything, but the universe has lost much of its "magic" during the last centuries. Which then would explain increased interest in cryptozoology, ufology and so.) I think this is a point of view from psychologists which has a relatively high reputation among scientists. But this theory essentially makes cryptozoologists crackpots again. --130.83.182.66 (talk) 14:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

That is not the theory I was referring to. The article, to me, ought be about cryptozoology, not cryptozoologists, not some crass reaction to sources that has users damning some sources and elevating others, with sweeping generalisations, and a reversal of the credential mongering that the "sub-culture" of "crack-pots" (or 'fellow travellers') are accused of doing. cygnis insignis 16:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

wp:or and wp:forum

Please read wp:or and wp:forum.Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

This was not a reply to one user (the clue is ion the indentation), this thread is getting a tad to ORy and forumy. We should only be talking about how to improve the article.Slatersteven (talk) 16:03, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Yes, I remember, I think my comments relate to the improvement of the article, I'm outlining how it is essay-like and mis-focused on serving heavy-handed actions elsewhere. There is an obvious fallacy in the premises that are used to remove content that is otherwise unobjectionable. cygnis insignis 16:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

And you are not the only person commenting here.Slatersteven (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I suppose other can join this discussion, but it seems to be tangential to the main thread. And not relevant if my contention is halfway correct, more a distraction that made it difficult to insert a response, so I gave it a subsection. How are you today? Serious question, are you looking for something to do or someone to interact with. I've said you can say hello elsewhere. cygnis insignis 16:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Also this is not about me, so how I am is irrelevant (and a distraction, please stop). My point was this thread was drifting into a discussion about the subject, not the article. I asked users to keep focused.Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Please note, some of the comments I was replying to have been moved to another section.Slatersteven (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, it's difficult to discuss this topic without getting lost in theories and theories over theories. But the word pseudoscience is generally a matter of debate, not only relating to cryptozoology but also other "pseudoscientific" fields, e.g. homeopathy or (already mentioned in article) ufology and ghost hunting. It seems more appropriate to regard science-like things on a spectrum ranging from hard-proven science to outright fraud or crackpottery. On this spectrum, most of cryptozoology is closer to the latter end than to the former, although it may still contain some truth. A common phenomenon is that pseudoscientific claims are prone to logical fallacies, but when trying to reject a pseudoscientific claim, one easily falls into logical fallacy traps oneself, like the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". And discussions for vs. against such claims often become emotion-laden and unobjective from both sides, effectively preventing people from finding a consense (beware if you answer to this thread!). By that definition, cryptozoology is a pseudoscience. Although that word sounds like an insult. --2003:E7:7727:B652:5124:1536:AC33:DC07 (talk) 02:01, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

We go with what RS say, so if no RS say this is not a pseudoscience we cannot say it is not.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

If a source uses the term without stating that it is a pseudoscience, it is not reliable … according to those who believe it is. If I make several thousands of edits to the RS noticeboard, am I then qualified to determine which sources are reliable? cygnis insignis 12:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

No, the community does, it is not the number of posts you make, it is the number of other users who agree with you. And a source not saying something is not the same as a source saying it is not something (the sea it wet, not matter how many sources that discus the sea fail to mention it is wet). So I take it form the above, that no you have not one RS that says this is not a pseudoscience.Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

According to what I said above, I could not have a reliable source. cygnis insignis 12:52, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Then this whole thread is pointless, as without an RS no change can be made.Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Or could it be that the point I was making has been missed? cygnis insignis 15:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for distracting from my side. I have re-read the article and its counterpart in the German Wikipedia. The point is not really if cryptozoology is a pseudoscience - it is, given its similarity with many other subjects dubbed "pseudosciences". The problem is rather that the English article tends to argue from fallacy, saying that because cryptozoologists almost universally make methodical errors, their claims must be false. In some cases the "crypto" theories indeed have self-invalidating tendencies (a population of large plesiosaurs in a relatively small lake??), but this is not always the case. Yeah, and there are scientific frauds and counter-rational ideologies within this "subculture". But in general, proposing a new yet-unknown animal or plant is not a fraud or crackpottery, otherwise theories like the fifth force were to be treated the same way. Lastly, how relevant is the connection to creationists, which is cited multiple times?

The German article - although much shorter - tries to be more neutral and informative in that way. It warns you not to take cryptozoology too serious, but does not include a lengthy collection of exclusively critical opinions, unlike ours. These give you the impression that cryptozoologists are generally a crazy and potentially dangerous community that you should avoid getting associated with, at least as a scientist who wants anyone to take anything you say serious. (My impression, as I compared the articles - yours may differ.) Furthermore, the German article mentions - in one sentence - different "sub-disciplines" inside cryptozoology like the "mythological cryptozoologists" who want to know the true origins of mythological creatures, be them real or just fantasy. Altogether a short, almost somewhat "stubby" article, but it tries to give a more differentiated view on the topic.

My conclusion: If there is something to criticize about the English article, it is not the mentioning of the word "pseudoscience" - rather it is a tendency to report a biased picture of its topic. I guess this is also what cygnis insignis was pointing to. I hope I'm not committing "verbal arson" here once more - please cool down before you answer. This thread is already quite long and full of distractions. --130.83.182.66 (talk) 13:15, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

All of this may well be true, but policy says we say what RS say. End of story.Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

For example? cygnis insignis 15:08, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

wp:v.Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

That is not an example. Something in the article maybe. cygnis insignis 15:16, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I said policy says X, you said you wanted an example. So what do you want an example of?Slatersteven (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

You don't seem to give other editors much credit, I'm familiar with policy. A reliable source for what you have said is an incontrovertible truth that dismisses any other source, like a sacred text can be used to discount any other as heresy. cygnis insignis 15:32, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know why I didn't think to look, short is better than puffery, over-reliance on quotes and that credential mongering that is ascribed to the alleged cult. It was good of you to share this view, I'll read it again after looking at the German article (with dictionary in hand). What you describe is the how the field was grounded. cygnis insignis 15:08, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Can someone close this now, it is clear there is no valid (policy based) reason to make the suggested changes. There are no RS backing the claim this is not a pseudoscience and any other points should be discussed seperatly from that.Slatersteven (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I dispute that simplistic view, and think that more views should be welcomed; attempting to edit the article would still be a waste of time. Those series of last words could become your the last word, your contributions have only been concerned with shutting down discussion of improvements. Others think otherwise. You could take it off your watchlist. cygnis insignis 15:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Don't become personal please. Otherwise that could harm your credibility as well. Who wants to further listen to someone who is personally attacking him?

Interestingly, the article itself has a similar problem: arguing ad hominem that cryptozoologists are often very unreliable sources, and then concluding that the entire idea of cryptozoology is a hocuspocus. But yes, that is actually a new thread. We could close the argument about "whether or not pseudoscience". --130.83.182.66 (talk) 16:05, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I think I got it. Whether a discipline is science or pseudoscience is a matter of methodical correctness and logical reasoning rather than actual truth. Pseudoscience is based on believes and not facts (but the believes are cloaked as facts). And I must admit that cryptozoology largely fulfills these criteria. But it is not hard-separated from zoology and folkloristics. I don't think zoologists generally dismiss anecdotes from local people when they examine populations of some large animal (e.g. gorillas), they are just cautious and aware that these anecdotes are not necessarily true. There is no solid separation between what is likely and what is absurd, the border is blurry. The scientific community must be critical about "cryptos" but not to the point of being guided by prejudices. For further discussion, it might be better to start a new chapter that deals with neutrality of the article. Let's close that pseudoscience thread, it's not the first one by the way. --2003:E7:7727:B655:54AA:F4EE:C1D0:9A3C (talk) 20:26, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

differentiated description vs. "it's all just psychological"

As it already has come across during the lengthy discussion above, the article tends towards giving just two explanations for the phenomenon of cryptozoology: Sightings of cryptids are either intentional frauds that are used by the claimer to catch public attention, or they are the product of unconcious self-deception. Of course, fraud and 'vivid imagination' are possible explanations. But there are more possibilities:

• In a small number of cases an unknown creature similar to the cryptid may really exist (example: giant squid).
• Furthermore, misidentifying a common animal as a mysterious creature need not have anything to do with attention seeking, or just being 'crazy': Eye wittnesses are known to be prone to phenomena like selective perception and false memories, a general problem that can in principle happen to anyone.
• Another explanation for cryptid sightings may be common animals which are disfigured by rare diseases (e.g. bears and coyotes with mange can get misidentified as bigfoots and chupacabras, respectively, and some 'monster' sightings may be known animals suffering from pathological gigantism).
• And cryptids seem to often "lurk" at places that are not well-explored and where sight is impaired, e.g. by a dense jungle or frequent fog. This can make it hard for people to correctly identify an animal that rushes by, and gives opportunities for speculation.
• More explanation attempts exist, like the before-mentioned 'cultural memory' theory.

By conclusion, if you believe you have seen bigfoot, nessie, orang pendek or whatever, this is not a reason for being stigmatized as a crackpot, as it could be the result of a common perceptual error.

I no longer argue against cryptozoology being a pseudoscience, see above (any proposed cryptid at least violates the principle of Ockham's razor as it leaves no traces which imply the necessity of its existence). It's more about the 'tone' of the article which is at times a little derogatory. It's like writing an article about homeopathy that says "it is a harmful quackery" backed up with several expert opinions. Although that may be right, many people believe in it or had "positive" experience with it, and don't want to be labelled as somehow crazy. The best is giving them a number of rational explanations why a probably useless medication seems to help them.

I would like to back up my own, hopefully neutral opinion with some good sources or expert opinions, but that's very difficult. I mainly find cryptozoologists defending what they call their 'science' (often losing themselves in fantastic anecdotes), and skepticists complaining about the overall low credibility of cryptozoologists (often concluding it must all be nonsense), similarly to this article. All in-between opinions that I read I found on non-scientific sites, such as in forum discussions. With that scarcity of sources, what I do here comes unfortunately close to original research... --2003:E7:7727:B605:CDEB:B170:FB4:5FE8 (talk) 23:30, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Folkorists regularly write about monsters, both in a contemporary and ancient context. They don’t turn to pseudoscientific speculation to explain these topics. The same goes for biologists for sightings of animals thought to be extinct or notably outside of their range. However, cryptozoology is plainly a pseudoscience. We write about what reliable sources say about this topic. Plainly, reliable sources state that cryptozoology is a pseudoscience and proceed to explain why. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Except this is not about people who have claimed to have seen them, but rather the people who claim what those people have seen is real. Nor are weer here to salve peoples self image, we are here to inform. We should no more salve the self image of those who believe in (or think they have seen) Nessie then we should those who say the world was created at 6 pm on 22 October 4004 bc or that the world is still flat. Sorry but we have to go with what RS say, not what people believe.Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

"6 pm on 22 October" I do not see why this is refined to that date, the consensus after that study IS that is an ill-founded premise based of His birthday (thus skewing any precision). My degree is in theoretical histrionics, so excuse the the original research that is still in preprint, cygnis insignis 15:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant, the point is that we would not salve the self image of YEC's, so why should we salve the self image of people who think they have seen an ABC.Slatersteven (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

"self image", not understood, it is theory that people more or less adhere to. These are two different things I thought everyone assumed. Is this not so? cygnis insignis 15:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

What I am saying is that "many people believe in it or had "positive" experience with it, and don't want to be labelled as somehow crazy." is not a valid argument to re-write an article on a fringe pseudoscience in order to not upset them. I would have thought that was obvious from the context of this discussion. I was giving examples of other pseudoscience beliefs in order to demonstrate why we should not pander to them.Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

THEM, i know mate, but what can WE do? [would you mind mind putting a space before your tiddles, i hav a thing about spacing within text]. cygnis insignis 16:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

What? really what is this a reply to?.Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

It seems the distinction whether a subject of matter belongs to cryptozoology is made ad hoc - everything believed to be realistic is counted as biology, everything that is judged absurd is cryptozoology. That is basically a no true scotsman fallacy - if somebody (no matter if believer or skeptic) ever proofs that a cryptozoological claim is true, it is no longer considered cryptozoological. Cryptozoology remains a container for the most absurd ideas. E.g. 200 years ago, gorillas would have been a matter of cryptozoology, now as they are known to exist, they are no longer. And King Kong shows which erroneous believes people held about these 'legendary' creatures.

By the way, the German Gesellschaft zur wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung von Parawissenschaften has a similar opinion about cryptozoology than what I looked for:

https://www.gwup.org/infos/themen/641-kryptozoologie

And they aim to be a skepticist organization... I found no English translation of this site, sorry. --2003:E7:7727:B648:1D1E:F0AE:8023:4153 (talk) 17:48, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Not really, its made based upon who says it. If a reputable biologist says "I have evidence of a new species of..." and this is published in a reputable peer reviewed scientific journal it is not cryptozoology. If it meets none of this it is.Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Crpytozoology didn’t exist 200 years ago, nor did it exist 100 years ago. While cryptozoologists are keen to imply that they’re a part of some old tradition, the reality is that cryptozoology came into existence in the 1950s as a fringe rejection of academia by a few disgruntled academics, which gave birth to today’s young earth creationist-aligned subculture. Meanwhile, biologists regularly identify previously unknown or undescribed animals, and folklorists regularly write about people claiming to see monsters. Basically, if a cryptozoologist wasn’t dependent upon pseudoscientific approaches, they’d be a folklorist or a biologist (or maybe even both—imagine that). :bloodofox: (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Interesting - are there any self-declared 'cryptozoologists' which are regarded by the scientific community as biologists or folklorists? Or does this self-identification prevent you from being seen as a scientist, whatever you are investigating and how? If I got it right, cryptozoology is defined as the sum of all wanna-be-biologists and wanna-be-folklorists that fail to adhere to scientific standards - everything that is intented to be biology or folkloristics but is not really. And 'cryptozoologist' is kind of an insult. Can one even separate that from the more general phenomenon of 'citizen junk science' (when laypeople try to make scientific investigations but are totally unaware of the standards, misled by personal bias and make premature and fallacious conclusions, like Fred A. Leuchter for example)? --2003:E7:7727:B648:1D1E:F0AE:8023:4153 (talk) 02:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

As the article makes clear, cryptozoology is a well defined subculture. Please consult those sources for general questions regarding cryptozoology. Wikipedia talk pages aren’t forums. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:12, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

My query, not explained in the article/essay, is "a sub-culture of what?" cygnis insignis 07:19, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

And by the way, fringe zoology before the 1950s was not cryptozoology? E.g. surgeon's photograph of the alleged Loch Ness Monster? So it is not just about hunting monsters, it's about an antiscience subculture that aims to disprove evolution theory by presenting 'evidence' for unexplainable hybrid creatures like the mothman? But that is not the same community which is described in articels about some cryptids, e.g. orang pendek - most people who seek this creature assume that it is an ape or archaic human species that would be in line with evolution theory. The 'yeti' could be a yet-unknown (sub-)species of bear (and the 'mothman' an eagle-owl, but that's my personal theory), and 'cryptozoologists' also look for extinct animals like the thylacine - what does this have to do with creationism? That's what boggles my mind - where cryptozoology starts and where it ends. Wikipedia does not give me a consistent answer, neither do any other sources I found so far. All we have is that it's not proper science...

As I re-read our discussion, the central point seems to be turning again - to the topic "what is cryptozoology and why, and what is not and why not". Are we presenting a universally accepted definition here, or rather an opinion? --2003:E7:7727:B655:B8C5:7AFC:C50D:FEF9 (talk) 14:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

We go with how RS define it. It does not mater how we choose to.Slatersteven (talk) 14:50, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I think point has been made often and is certainly understood by the user. And it is the disparity in the use in RS and here that is part of my concern here. cygnis insignis 15:08, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

What disparity, what are you talking about?Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I've made the point several times, in responses to this user, they seem to have been not understood or read and I'm not interested in quickfire replies by someone who becomes fixated with other user's behaviour. cygnis insignis 15:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

OK then let me put it another way, what RS are we not using? That is what I am asking. If we are not presented with sources we cannot use them.Slatersteven (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Mothman theories are cool, and there are several other animals that know how to terrify mammals. It is the capture and critique within any field of science that falls into this field that is perhaps its undoing as a study of phenomena, but correlation of unverifiable data and unrepeatable experiments can suggest something that can be scrutinised by scientists. That is well illustrated by the examples given already. Similar arguments are made for saying science has replaced philosophy. cygnis insignis 15:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Is this something that comes close to a reliable source? I scanned the text, it looks like a scientist who is a cryptozoology fan gives a critical remark about this field and advise how to get it closer to science:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272351891_Cryptozoology_and_Pseudoscience

Of course, it's an essay and not a large metastudy, so it has a limited meaning. If 100 scientific papers say something different... And I expect not everyone will agree that the article really deals with 'cryptozoology': What the author suggests to do - bring more science into the field - would blur the line to biology and folkloristics, and she doesn't seem to be a creationist either. Not to mention "independent researcher" is probably not the most credible type of scientist you can be. But it shows that not all people interested in cryptozoology are clueless cranks (although some are for sure), and that not everyone seems to share the narrow definition of cryptozoology that is presented in our article.

By the way, the description given by the GWUP (German source in an earlier post) should be quite reliable, they specifically deal with examining the credibility of pseudoscience communities. Although they are more interested in medical pseudosciences as these are deemed more dangerous. --2003:E7:7727:B634:3D90:6C02:E2D0:5C8A (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

This is from science writer Sharon Hill, who discusses cryptozoology’s connections to young earth creationism and other related topics at length in more recent works (for example, [[8]]). :bloodofox: (talk) 23:57, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure what you want to use this for.Slatersteven (talk) 08:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

It probably doesn't matter anyway. I just don't understand why one must emphasize so much that link to creationism, and then come up with Holocaust denial and whatever. It sounds like "Most homeopaths are against vaccinations and believe the earth is flat." This may apply to a particular sub-community, but cannot be generalized. One can't just lump together all pseudosciences. If I want to disprove evolution theory, why should I search for alien big cats or thylacines? The assumed presence of ABC would quite definitely be a result of human activity, as is the extinction of the thylacine. It would be really far-off to see any result of such an 'expedition' as a disprove of evolution theory. You could equally see the result of a coin toss as a disprove of evolution theory, it would be complete magical thinking. I honestly don't think all (or most) cryptozoologists are totally off from reality. Maybe a small but loud minority is. - And if somebody claims to have seen an ABC and concludes that Darwin was wrong, this does not even exclude the presence of the ABC, it just means the conclusion is garbage - an arbitrary 'observation' is used to promote creationism. - Would this be actual cryptozoology, or abuse of a cryptozoological idea for another pseudoscience?

I will stop wasting our time with that discussion... it just leads to nothing... --2003:E7:7727:B630:D171:61E7:B688:FD7A (talk) 23:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Probably a wise decision, it looks like most if not all of your arguments have already been brought up here in the past, only in slightly different forms. By the way, the mention of holocaust denial is within a citation, so not Wikipedia's guilt. And indeed some cryptozoologists are creationists, as some homeopaths are anti-vaccination advocates. The fields of pseudoscience overlap just as the fields of science do (e.g. physics and chemistry). --130.83.182.66 (talk) 11:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Cryptids in fiction

There are many fantasy and art works that explore cryptids in fiction, without asserting those creatures are actually real. Some of these works have been critical studies of cryptozoology specifically, and others have been speculative fiction works which simply incorporate cryptid-inspired creatures. As there doesn't appear to be an article on the cultural phenomenon of cryptids (rather than other folkloric or fantasy beasts), I've added a new section about fictional, fantastical and artistic takes on cryptozoology. Rauisuchian (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Monsters and other creatures from the folklore record (which cryptozoologists call "cryptids") appear very frequently in literature, both in fiction and non-fiction. While we could use a section on cryptozoologists in fiction with a reliable source that explicitly discusses this topic, what you're doing so far is simply hijacking the article, especially its lead, to promote the idea that there is some kind of speculative fiction genre from disparate and generally poor sources that don't discuss it. This is classic synthesis.

Sources you've included, such as this Barnes and Noble blog source, contain false statements such as "once in a blue moon, a cryptid is actually discovered, for real, in the wild, thus allowing us to reserve just a little bit of hope for the others" — completely false but nonetheless a typical claim made by cryptozoologists, as noted by academics on this very article. Note also that this article makes no mention of the fact that cryptozoology is a pseudoscience. It's a clear WP:RS fail.

The Scientific American article you cite, which was written by apologetic cryptozoologist Darren Naish, contains exactly one mention of the word "fiction" ("there’s a good paper-trail showing that ideas about the cryptids concerned evolved from an origin in mythology, fiction or confusion"). The Gizmodo piece you cite is nothing more than a promotional piece about a book by Naish (note the "GMG may get a commission" via an affiliate link), which also says nothing about fiction, and makes claims about some non-existent field called "monster studies" (that'd simply just be folklorists studying narratives that contain monsters, for example, typical folklore studies stuff).

Find a source that explicitly discusses the topic of cryptozoologists in fiction, and we can include it as a section called, well, "cryptozoologists in fiction" or something similar. In the mean time, converting the lead and chunks of the body to unduly present some idea that there's some special genre about "cryptids" is not appropriate. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

I see your point. Thanks for going point by point and saying exactly what is wrong with those edits. Though I wasn't trying to imply that there's an entire genre, that's why I said trope, I suppose it is undue emphasis given the sources used. And Naish is enough in favor of some cryptozoological ideas that he should be directly quoted as an opinion on those specific topics instead of paraphrased as an encyclopedic statement. He is probably skeptical enough to include in the reception section, particularly where he agrees with Abominable Science, but a different quote would have to be used.

I somewhat oppose the creation of a "cryptozoologists in fiction" section, as that would only be able to focus on the works of actual unapologetic cryptozoologists, which would be mostly redundant detail given the existing sections. However, you mentioned in the edit history an "In popular culture" section, and that could be a good and neutral idea to include.

Here are my tentative ideas for a neutral "In popular culture" section. While it should be a pretty short section to avoid listcruft, I think it could focus on the following 3-4 topics: media programs (Including both the programs themselves like MonsterQuest and the criticism of those programs for uncritical media propagation), Debunking works (by skeptics and some by "apologetic cryptozoologists" such as Lake Monsters and Cryptozoologicon, this could be wrapped into the previous where it overlaps), Commercialization (as mentioned in skeptic work Bigfoot: The Life and Times of a Legend and this Smithsonian article) and Cultural motivations of cryptozoology (such as wild man concept for Bigfoot, individualism and such, plus criticism of how it may be fakelore or appropriation. Of which there are mentions in the aforementioned smithsonian article, and existing cites such as Abominable Science.) If this is doable or something along these lines I'll sandbox it when I have time. What do you think? Rauisuchian (talk) 01:30, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate the time and effort you're putting into a difficult topic here. I also appreciate your patience—I know putting a lot of effort into something that is met with a revert can be frustrating, and I'd be glad to work with you in developing the article further.

Regarding a "Cryptozoologists in fiction" section (or some such), I'm referring to cryptozoologists as they are portrayed in fictional works, as they now and then seem to pop up as a sort pseudo-anthropologist Indiana Jones-like stock figure, it seems. This stuff is definitely out there, but I have yet to see a reliable source discussing it.

Works by cryptozoologists themselves of course fall clearly into the category of WP:FRINGE and WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, and shouldn't be directly cited—they fail WP:RS and are inevitably full of problems. Loxton and Prothero write a bit about Naish, and I think we should include some discussion about him, but he's also proponent of a pseudoscience and his theories about cryptozoology are definitely fringe, so it's something we'll need to be wary about. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:50, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

So how does this article fit in with this? https://darrennaish.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/paxton-naish-2019-were-19th-century-sea-monster-reports-influenced-by-fossils.pdf. This article is not pseudoscience and it is not folkloristics. Naish is not the "proponent" of cz you think he is and he is not fringe...he has one of the most popular blogs in zoology and has published loads of papers. The status of cz is anything but simple. Tullimonstrum (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't. Naish is an apologetic cryptozoologist, as discussed by Loxton and Prothero. He's not the first biologist to embrace a 'reformed' version of a pseudoscience in his free time. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Did you even look at the paper in the 12 minutes it took you to respond? It is not a defence of unknown species.Tullimonstrum (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Pop-cult/In fiction sections can be WP-decent, but WP:PROPORTION is important. Getting it into the LEAD is clear overkill. Consider examples like Christopher_Marlowe#Marlowe_in_fiction or Tardigrade#In_popular_culture. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Works by cryptozoologists themselves of course fall clearly into the category of WP:FRINGE and WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, and shouldn't be directly cited

Why not? This is exactly the same as saying that we should delete Ronald Hutton and all his works, because folklore is an unreliable source. There are are threads at ANI, RSN and AfD right now to delete all cryptozoology content as "unreliable", but I'm surprised to see a folklorist calling from this. There is a very big difference between the reliability of a field's source material, and the reliability of those writing seriously about that field. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:20, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

There are no such threads on those forums, and we use academics active in folklore studies, folklorists, as sources for folklore-related articles. We stick to what reliable sources say, and they flatly say that cryptozoology is just another pseudoscience. It's as simple as that. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

So how does this article fit in with this? https://darrennaish.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/paxton-naish-2019-were-19th-century-sea-monster-reports-influenced-by-fossils.pdf. This article is not pseudoscience and it is not folkloristics. Naish is not the "proponent" of cz you think he is. The status of cz is anything but simple. Tullimonstrum (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Why did you post this both here and above? Stick to one thread, please. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

On the header topic, Cryptozoology could be compared to other fringe topic articles like Hollow Earth, which has a sizeable "In fiction" section, or Ancient astronauts, which has a full "in pop culture" article. Rauisuchian (talk) 05:04, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

@Rauisuchian:, I've encountered a paper that follows a topic we were discussing here, which I think you might be interested in having a look over: [9]. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:00, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Cool, I'll read over it when I have the chance.Rauisuchian (talk) 05:51, 17 December 2019 (UTC)