Talk:2019–20 Australian bushfire season

Comparisons would be useful

To understand the size of these fires it would be useful to compare their size with previous Australian fires as well as international. Skytalk (talk) 04:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Have a look at Bushfires in Australia#Major bushfires in Australia. To date 2019-20 is not yet any where near some previous years, eg 1974-75, which was over 100,000,000ha. Aoziwe (talk) 22:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I have left a Talk note about the 74-75 fires at Bushfires in Australia article. The concern is that the figure quoted includes savanna fires. These are pretty much annual events that burn across enormous land areas. If this becomes a precedent, then the bushfires where life, property or infrastructure was lost will be swamped by grassfires where none of these things were in danger. To complicate things, there were non-savanna fires in that season of some importance. There's no real guidance on this issue: some sources include grass fires in the categorisation of bushfires, others restrict it wooded habitats. Do you have any thoughts on the topic? Prime Lemur (talk) 13:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

As an afterthought: I have noticed that some savanna fires have already started in Nth Aust. It probably won't be a significant year for savanna fires, as they're usually associated with high rainfall. The idea of adding on savanna fires to total area burned this year would seem to me to diminish the scale of this bushfire season-to-date. Prime Lemur (talk) 14:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes I agree. I have started to note the difference. See this edit. But it needs a lot more explanation. Aoziwe (talk) 23:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I spent a short amount of time trying to tease apart the different sources & their figures for the 74/75 season, and it felt like trying to untangle a box full of Christmas lights. It'd take more time than I have free. I do think the article proper could benefit from its own section on Aust savanna fires, bc they're absolutely fascinating in their own right (to me, anyway). The area burned most years, and the uniquely fire-dependant habitat certainly makes it noteworthy. As an anecdote, when I was 18, I travelled by bus (!) from Brisbane to Darwin. Having been delayed for 6 hrs in Tennant Creek by the heaviest rain I've ever seen, the driver was pretty keen to crack on. Still a few hours out of Darwin, we came up on a savanna fire burning on one side of the road. On the PA, he announced we were going to drive straight through the fire. He added: "Don't worry folks, there's no danger, you couldn't even brown toast on one of these [fires]." Over the next hundred km, there were alternating patches of burned and unburned land. It wasn't until a decade later I learned the savanna is intentionally burned most years in a patchwork fashion by state authorities. Anyway, sorry to bore you with that. Thanks for your work on this article. I'll get back to my orchid edits. Prime Lemur (talk) 08:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Causes

Hello. In the section about the contributing causes, it may be interesting to mention the following:

Increased frequency and severity of bushfires is an expected consequence of the climate crisis. In 2007, the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report projected that "By 2030, water security problems are projected to intensify in southern and eastern Australia and [...] production from agriculture and forestry is projected to decline over much of southern and eastern Australia [...] due to increased drought and fire."

Thank you. Doringa Slunpucts (talk) 10:39, 8 January 2020 (UTC).

References

Not sure how this particular quote fits. The opening sentence is very broad, and is already covered in many places. The latter part of the quote is forecasting another ten years out and is about economic impact rather than cause? Aoziwe (talk) 22:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• AwabaFire2019.jpg (discussion)
• Bushfire destroys house.jpg (discussion)
• Firefighters - NSW Bushfires 2019.jpg (discussion)
• Gospers Mountain Fire.jpg (discussion)
• Werombi Bushfire.jpg (discussion)
• Yanderra Bushfire.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - just letting people know these are being proposed for deletion due to a spurious argument that they might have been taken from Facebook (despite the uploader nominating them as their own work, and uploading other images (with no issues) of the same areas of Sydney where these photos are taken from. Bookscale (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Bushfire in Prospect Hill.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:36, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Economic impact

Do we need a section on the economic impact of these fires? See Black Saturday bushfires#Economic impact.

"The economic damage from the bushfires devastating Australia’s eastern seaboard is likely to exceed the record $4.4bn set by 2009’s Black Saturday blazes, Moody’s Analytics has said." Source

I have heard lots of media reports of cancelled travel/holiday bookings, stock and crop losses, etc. 220 of ^Borg 08:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Yep - feel free to start one.  Aoziwe (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Not really my area of expertise, and I think it's been done now by another editor.--220 of ^Borg 08:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2020

Suggest adding "Accidental" to one of the causes of fires in summary box.

QLD, Binna Burra bushfire - lodge burnt down, fire started from cigarette butt.

• Added to infobox.

Also: Defence Force:

• This one is still conjecture?

Other Edit: suggest adding other other references to Arson - Further, "charges laid" mean they are no longer "alleged".

• It is still an allegation unit "proven" in court?

RFS Volunteer: 2001:8004:1180:671:FC11:E883:BB35:2BC2 (talk) 12:57, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• This one is already in the infobox.

References

If you have any concerns re above please advise. Aoziwe (talk) 22:28, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

UPDATES TO AFFECTED AREAS

This figure stands at 10,700,000 hectares as of 8 Jan but hasn't been updated since. Does anybody have current information on this? It's suddenly difficult to find accurate figures anywhere, there's been a real burying of the figures of late anywhere I look. -- trying to work out how to sign this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.194.48 (talk) 06:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Don't know where to find info. It might be nice to get this information from a primary source for now, instead of relying on newspapers who might not want to keep this number updated. Signing can be done by using four tildes at the end of your comment. (~~~~). Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Update celebrities who donated

Can someone added celebrities that donated in the Donations section because I found new information from Sindo News in Indonesia. Information stated like this (translated from Indonesian)

• South Korean rapper Jay Park donated US $ 30,000 (A$43,160) to the New South Wales Rural Fire Service. Bantu Korban Kebakaran di Australia, Jay Park Sumbang Dana USD30.000.

Similar link also found in Australian media Jay Park donates $30k to Australian bushfire effort — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.42.3 (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

With other celebrities donating one million dollars or more, I don't think a $30,000 donation is that noteworthy. WWGB (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree that $30,000 isn't really notable enough compared to some of the other celebrities like WWGB has said. Maybe if it was in the six digits than we might be talking but it's not really enough to be notable. HawkAussie (talk) 03:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree. I've added some more today – philanthropists, corporates, 'celebrities', and sportspeople – all sourced from an ABC News article that uses A$500K as the cut off. I believe that this is a reasonable threshold. Rangasyd (talk) 11:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 21:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Intro

Why do yas have (Year) Australian bushfire season in the intros of your other Australian bushfire articles, but not in this one? GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I think we did, see the second sentence, but then someone added a little bit of text before it. Good day to you sir. 😉 --220 of ^Borg 08:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Fixed and restored to create some compromise of what was there before; and what is there now. Added bold that was removed for some silly reason. Rangasyd (talk) 11:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Citation needed under Political Response/Disinformation

Citation needed for the sentence “Various bots, trolls and questionable news sources....that Islamic State was somehow responsible or involved.”

I’m new here not sure how I can help. Have seems examples re Greens & Islamic State. Should I add references & link to these examples of disinformation? Gerard.roberts (talk) 07:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

The sentences before and after the sentence I mentioned have citations. But they don’t refer to the info (which is quick substantial) in the sentence I’m talking about. Gerard.roberts (talk) 07:20, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Have seen examples. Gerard.roberts (talk) 07:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

quite substantial Gerard.roberts (talk) 07:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Has been fixed now I think. Aoziwe (talk) 09:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Aoziwe. I think the footnote #291 should be at end of the sentence. The Guardian article says “eco-terrorists are trying to spur action on climate change by manufacturing a catastrophe.” In other words, a false flag operation. Gerard.roberts (talk) 10:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2020

Citation needed under 8.2 Disinformation The following sentence needs citations (I provided a reference for the first citation):

“Various bots, trolls and questionable news sources spread fake news about the fires including that prescribed burns to thin vulnerable areas had been blocked by environmentalists or the Australian Greens,that fires would clear land to benefit a high-speed rail project, that the fires were a false flag operation deliberately lit by climate change activists, and that Islamic State was somehow responsible or involved.” Gerard.roberts (talk) 09:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC) Gerard.roberts

References

All but one have been done and I have tagged that one as such. Aoziwe (talk) 10:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Ref now covers all three relevant items. Aoziwe (talk) 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Consistency please

Hi Cement4802 and Femkemilene.

When you change numbers, and refs for them, can you please change them everywhere they occur, eg, in the Lead text, in the Overview text, in the Overview table, and in the Overview table notes, and anywhere else, and check the adding up too.

Thanks. Aoziwe (talk) 12:07, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Will do, sorry. I believe numbers have changed after I edited, so I won't do editing now. Femke Nijsse (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Aoziwe (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Bumcheekcity. Can you please do the job properly too. You have currently left a mess. Aoziwe (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I have been able to clean up. Aoziwe (talk) 23:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2020

In the Mid-North Coast section from November 12 2019, the fire that swept through Hillville destroyed 2 houses on neighbouring properties and hundreds of acres of Kiwarrak State Forest, as well as the wildlife it contained. After a wind-change, the fire swept back through to the east on November 14 2019 and destroyed another house and outbuilding on one of the same properties from the 12th before continuing towards Krambach. Over that week, the fire threatened, but did not destroy several properties within Hillville burning up to within 3 metres of various houses. Author: Ashleigh Douglas, first-person source as the property discussed is my family property. Raginginsanity (talk) 12:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

House destroyed in Hillville, NSW on 12th November 2019

The Hillville fire destroyed this house and machinery shed on a farm in Hillville on 14th November 2019

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raginginsanity (talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but please see WP:PRIMARY in regard to recording personal experience. Wikipedia, if we record your decription above, would become a primary source, contrary to policy.

We could use the photographs though. Did you have a preference as to where they might be used.

Regards. Aoziwe (talk) 14:12, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I have added in the two images adjacent to the paragraph referring to Hillville. Thank you for the two images. Aoziwe (talk) 23:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Be aware of named references

All.

If you are removing content, or replacing references, please check to see if any of them are named, ie, <ref name="SOMETHING LIKE THIS"> ... </ref>. If it is being used somewhere else, ie, <ref name="SOMETHING LIKE THIS"/>, you need to make sure the name stays defined somewhere, perhaps on another instance of its use instead.

Aoziwe (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Images added in other languages

in German (Nachmittagssonne in Gosford, New South Wales in November 2019).

In Indonesian (Asap kebakaran hutan yang dilihat di langit kota Perth pada November 2019.)

I found in South Coast sub-section and Western Australia section two images above are added but they use another language, one about Nachmitgagssonne in German sentence and smoke effect in Perth in Indonesian sentence. Can you replace them with English sentences since it is English Wikipedia and any sentences that written in languages other than English must replace with that English word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.42.41 (talk) 08:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done - language fixed (I hope). Aoziwe (talk) 10:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Comparison with other fires in the lead

I am not at all sure that a comparison with other fires in the lead is the appropriate place for such to be done.

The current comparison I have removed a couple of times, mainly because it was badly placed. XavierItzm has restored it a couple of times.

My concerns are:

1. The non trivial visual of the data for another event detracts from the lead. The lead is suppposed to be about the main subject of the article;
2. The comparison is not comparing apples with apples, ie, the vast majority of the current season's fires are forest fires, with the exception of NT's fire grounds, whereas the 1974-75 season was mainly grass / scrub / arid / savannah fires. Comparing area alone is not indicative of the relative impact of the fire seasons;
3. Other fires have been much bigger in terms of their impact on people, both fatalites and injuries;
4. The impact on diverse ecosystems and species is likely to be much greater this season than the 1974-75 season due to the probably more homogeneous nature of the 1974-75 season, with some areas this season possibly not having been burnt for hundreds of years or more.

If we are to have a comparison, I suggest it should be in its own section, later in the article, under perhaps 2019–20 Australian bushfire season#Ecological effects, and address at least all of the above issues and perhaps more.

In the mean time I suggest any comparison is sufficiently covered by the note at the bottom the Overview table.

Comment? Aoziwe (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

My main concern is the stale citation that the NSW fire brigade considers it unprecedented. The cit. is from November 2019, so it is quite obsolete (considering the evolution of the incident since). I've added language clarifying that the cited agency's comment is valid only for that state, and not for Australia; but still, it is quite confusing because the article is about Australia, and here on the lead we have one state agency's characterisation from 2 months ago qualifying the whole thing –––and yes, I know you and I know what NSW means, but the average foreigner reader hasn't got the foggiest about the Federation, the states, the territories, etc. It would be an entirely different thing if this Wiki entry were for 2019–20 New South Wales bushfire season. I think if you removed this problematic ref exclusive to the NSW agency from the lead, then there would be no need add clarificatory material to the lead.

Yes it is stale. And, as you point out, not really about the national season but about NSW. Why don't we just move it, with any required adjustment and other material, to provide context, etc., to be a "lead" at the start of the 2019–20 Australian bushfire season#New South Wales section? Aoziwe (talk) 11:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection. XavierItzm (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to be able to do this for a couple of days ... Aoziwe (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

As an aside, I agree that there are differences in nature between fires. For example, you could say the Black Thursday 1851 bushfires with 1,000,000 sheep burned alive were the most impactful ever for the livelihood of all Australians; you could say the Black Friday 1939 bushfires were the worst ever for any one Australian state, insofar as it affected 3/4ths of the state and killed 71 people; you could say the ones that cost the most lives were the Black Saturday 2009 bushfires that killed 173 people. Nonetheless, any fires, such as the ones from 1974-75, that burn up 15% of one's country, and a total area larger than France, Spain and Portugal combined, might be worth mentioning. XavierItzm (talk) 11:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I think there should be some relevant comparisons. I just think the current comparison is taking undue weight in the lead, and other fires, like you say, should have some due weight if we are going to make any comparison. Aoziwe (talk) 11:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Area burnt figure

Most current news sources estimate the total area burnt to be around 17 million hectares, or 16.8 million more precisely. Where did the 18 million figure currently presented on this page come from? Does it add up to that figure as a total of the figures from each state? Not saying it's a wrong figure or anything, just a bit confused - Cement4802 (talk) 10:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

It is the total of numbers provided by this reference as in the table in the Overview section. Yes the title says 17 but it adds up more than that. If you have a more accurate more up to date reference please feel free to make changes accordingly, but please make the change consistently throughout the article, as per above Consistency please. Aoziwe (talk) 11:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Failed verification

Hi XavierItzm.

Re your valid concern hence this edit. Would this reference be good enough?

Aoziwe (talk) 11:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and no need for asking! A small caveat is that the Tumut refers to unprecedented fire in the Snowy Valleys, so we want to make sure the text reflects that. Cheers, XavierItzm (talk) 11:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done Aoziwe (talk) 12:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

You beat me to the ref move. Aoziwe (talk) 12:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Yep, I know you said no need to ask for the last one, but just in case this becomes an issue, if not for us then for someone else, re your valid concern hence this edit. Would this reference be good enough? Aoziwe (talk) 12:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, thanks for being extra-cautious. Look, I don't see anything in The Leader link you provided to indicate that this is is an unprecedented evacuation notice. It might very well be, but the link does not say, and we cannot do original research. But perhaps I missed something? XavierItzm (talk) 16:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt, I have moved the FV template to the problematic qualification "unprecedented" only. XavierItzm (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I was relying on this text: "... after unprecedented stretches of the state were declared Leave Zones." ? Aoziwe (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Wow, right you are! Sorry I somehow missed that sentence. Of course The Leader ought to be used as support for "unprecedented". There is a small detail that The Leader makes reference to both "tourist leave zones" and "leave zones" and the present article text doesn't quite reflect this yet, but I am sure it can be worked out. XavierItzm (talk) 00:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I am not aware of any difference between "tourist leave zones" and "leave zones". (Living in the thick of such - the air is very thick with smoke again today - visibility down to 500 to 800m) I can say as far as I am aware a "leave zone" was "if you do not live there then leave". These were not "evacuation orders" for people in immediate threat of a fire front, but the "zones" were in the projected paths of fires, and excess people were or would create major logistics and supply issues, or the zone was likely to be cut off as highways closed (possibly by other fires), and if the fire did impact then critical life threatening problems. I will update with the Leader ref. Aoziwe (talk) 03:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done Aoziwe (talk) 10:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that I agree with this one though. Yes the ref refers to climate change in the US, but it does refer to Aussie fire seasons starting earlier and finishing later. As to your concern re climate change affecting Aussie fires, that is what the next reference is entirely about. So, there are references covering the material in that article content? Aoziwe (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

So far, there are no identified problems with the preceding nor the following refs. Nonetheless, the ref. Price, Owen (17 August 2018) is problematic for two reasons: (1) it is an opinion piece, clearly labeled. Opinion pieces are generally not acceptable for facts, unless the opinion is attributed in main text to the author himself. (2) The sentences the ref. supports are either "climate change is a factor known to result in increased fire frequency and intensity in south east Australia" or "climate change is considered very likely to have contributed to the unprecedented extent and severity of the fires" —but Price's opinion piece does not attribute to climate change the fires "in south east Australia" nor does it say that the fires were contributed to by climate change. All it says it that there is evidence climate change is "increasing fire activity in the United States". Wait, you may say, but isn't global warming global? Well, two problems, the effects of global warming vary by region (and therefore its effects in the U.S. are not necessarily the same as in Australia), and two, such a question takes us directly into WP:OR, which we cannot get into. The text which the ref supports should be re-written or the ref deleted.XavierItzm (talk) 16:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Just remove that reference then. The other references I think cover the material quite well. Aoziwe (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done. XavierItzm (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Aoziwe (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Homes destroyed

Some sources are reporting 161 homes destroyed in SA but I can only find 151 by location.

Some sources are reporting 48 homes destroyed in QLD but I can only find 45 by location.

Can anyone clarify, fill in the gaps, etc.? Aoziwe (talk) 05:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Homes vs houses

Someone has changed all mentions of "houses" to "homes". I doubt this is accurate in every case. Particularly in the coastal holiday resort townships, at least some of the houses burnt would not be permanent homes, just houses occupied from time to time by holiday makers. I'd like to recommend a policy for this and similar articles of using "houses" consistently. HiLo48 (talk) 08:26, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Yep it was me who made the change. Yes you are 100% correct. Some of the dwellings would have been "holiday houses". However, as I was going through a lot of references they all seemed to refer to "homes", not "houses", so to keep good faith with the source material, I changed the wording to "homes". As far as I am aware the very significant vast majority would have been "permanent homes". Aoziwe (talk) 10:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Evacuation orders?

In Victoria residents cannot be ordered to evacuate. Recommendations can be issued, and are. The Victorian part of the article reflects this reality well. But what's the situation in other states and territories? The article mentions evacuation orders in more than one place. Is this actually correct, or just media excitement? HiLo48 (talk) 10:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It depends. We would have to double check. I think this also applies in other states too, but if a "state of emergency" is declared, then I understand that designated officials can order evacuations. Unless such is declared though, then only "prepare, stay and defend" versus "leave early" versus "too late to leave" advice can be given. BUT it might take some WP:OR to properly clarify it. Yes, sometimes, the "general" press I think has interpretted/translated the above "leave early" and also the "leave zone" declarations as "evacuate" I think. They are colloquilly evacuations but not formal/technical evacuations. As far as I am aware the ABC emergency information broadcasts were always very careful about the langauge they used. Then there is the "situation" where people have volunterily left early, but have not been allowed to return, so does this mean that they are now forcibly evacuated? Aoziwe (talk) 11:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Is Bali affected by smoke ?

• By 7 January 2020, the smoke was carried approximately 11,000 kilometres (6,800 mi) across the South Pacific Ocean to Chile and Argentina,[citation needed] and to Bali in Indonesia, prompting the local government to evacuate people from the areas affected by smoke.

Some sentence was hypothetical, particularly when this section mention Bali in list of places affect by bushfire. I don't see in reliable source that Bali was affected only a imagination added by IP users so they imagine that Bali was impacted by smoke in Northern Territory, Australia. It think impact in Bali was fake news. For impacts in Chile and Argentina, this need a reliable source to add it.