Talk:Caroline Flack

Filmography

Why is there a Filmography here ? What films has she appeared in ? Jamie Stuart (talk) 12:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

"Filmography" is a generic tern and we don't use the word "Televisionography". Do you have an alternative suggestion? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Oeuvre perhaps? All the best: Rich Farmbrough (the apparently calm and reasonable) 22:41, 15 February 2020 (UTC).

Wow, that sounds bit grand. What about just "Television" as the main heading? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I feel it's a misnomer to use "Filmography" for performers not involved in the "film" industry and that a better term should be found for performers in television, more accurate and more specific to avoid confusion. Jamie Stuart (talk) 11:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2020

SHE IS DEAD 15 FEBRUARY 2001:B07:645F:AC96:A597:D83D:7FC:CC85 (talk) 17:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

This is already mentioned in the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2020

Change date of death from 15th February 2020 to 14th February 2020 Hazard321 (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source to back this up? GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Cause of death

I hit an edit conflict with Gorilla Warfare (to whom thanks) trying to delete the reference from The Sun. Can all editors please remember that UK red tops and tabloids, including The Mail, Express and Sun are not reliable. - SchroCat (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I see there are quite a few sources now saying "suspected suicide". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

And The Independent says plainly here: "A lawyer for the Flack family confirmed that Caroline took her own life and was found in her east London flat." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Yep, agreed that it's sufficiently reflected in the reliable sources now. The tabloids are always the first to report things like this, but they're also more willing to be wrong. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I have now added with The Indy as the source. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: The information was already in the article right before the sentence you added. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:18, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

D'oh. I guess that doesn't make it any more true, then. Sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:25, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Please note that in the UK "suicide" is a conclusion (verdict) that coroners come to, and there hasn't been an inquest yet. That's why none of the sources use the word suicide. I don't know if Wikipedia wants to pre-empt the coroners court, or if it wants to use the alternative wording given by the sources instead. DanBCDanBC (talk) 00:12, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the few uses of "suicide" from the article and replaced with either simply death or the more common (in the UK) "took her own life", which avoids the legal definition you mention above and also the awkward sounding "died by suicide", which barely features on British English sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:25, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I notice that at the moment the lead again says "committed suicide"—phrasing I generally prefer to replace with "died by suicide" (for good reason). I notice the CNN source used for the lead sentence also says "died by suicide". I didn't realize there were legal connotations around it in the UK though. Personally my preference is 1. died by suicide; 2. took her own life; 3. committed suicide—I feel like "took her own life" is edging into WP:EUPHEMISM territory and potentially might be difficult for ESL speakers, but if there are indeed legal concerns then I see the reasoning. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:30, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Well "died by suicide" sounds like a euphemism to me, like you've just swapped it for "committed suicide" so as not to offend anyone. The CNN source is American so presumably it's a more common phrase there, but almost all UK sources are saying "took her own life". See [1][2][3]. Please let's stick that unless there are strong reasons not to.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:25, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

If we have to use the word suicide we need to avoid "committed suicide", because that's not acceptable British English usage. There are cultural differences here between the US and the UK, and this is an article about someone from the UK. BBC Editorial Guidelines 5.3.47 https://www.bbc.com/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-and-offence/guidelines "5.3.47 We should be sensitive about the use of language. Suicide was decriminalised in 1961 and the use of the term ‘commit’ is considered offensive by some people. ‘Take one’s life’ or ‘kill oneself’ are preferable alternatives."; Guardian Style Guide: https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-s "Say that someone killed him or herself rather than “committed suicide”; suicide has not been a crime in the UK for many years and this old-fashioned term can cause unnecessary further distress to families who have been bereaved in this way."; National Union of Journalists https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/mental-health-and-suicide-reporting-guidelines/ "Remember suicide is not a crime so it is inaccurate to use the word ‘committed’. Describing someone as having ‘committed suicide’ reduces the person to the type of death or implies criminal or sinful behaviour. An alternative term is “died by suicide”." There are plenty more examples of the UK context of avoiding the word "committed" when describing suicide. DanBCDanBC (talk) 12:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

• A couple of corrections to things written above. 1) It is only partially true that suicide is a verdict. It has a wider meaning outside the narrow legal definition, and can be used in more negeral English. 2) "committed suidice" is entirely acceptable in British English (it's a term employed in numerous reliable sources, and in the OED). "took her own life" sounds like weasel words to me, but may not to others - particularly those from outside the UK. - SchroCat (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

The word "committed" is not acceptable in British English, and this is a British English article. The phrase commonly used would be "died by suicide". While you're right that suicide is a word that has a normal everyday English meaning it's not a word being used by any of the sources, and it's possible that her death is ruled as misadventure. You'd then have the primary source saying misadventure, the secondary sources saying misadventure or took her own life, and wikipedia saying suicide. Finally, in England they are not verdicts, they are conclusions. DanBCDanBC (talk) 12:26, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2020

Date of Death: 15th February 2020 (Age 40) 51.52.204.133 (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Already reflected in the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Refs

I don't think that her death is contentious. It's an undisputed fact. Are refs needed in the main body AND in the lead section AND in the infobox? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:43, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Given its recency I think it's worth doing at least in the lead and the body. I added them to the infobox because initially that was one of the only places in the article that mentioned her death, but I don't object to them being removed from there. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:47, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm not sure they are required in the lead by policy? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:LEADCITE, I think it's worth leaving them—it is potentially contentious given that she has so recently been reported dead. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:59, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh, ok. I've never understood it that way. I guess individual circucmstances vary anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Reputable sources

The page was edited to include her death before reputable sources were found to support the fact. However now that there is reputable and undisputed evidence of this, the section regarding her death could likely be removed and the citations in the infobox too. GSSNYC (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

She's dead. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

This has been confirmed by reliable sources including the BBC, who have confirmed her death with her family. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:47, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes - I don't dispute that, this was explaining why there was excessive references and citations. I was responding to Martinevans123's point in the Refs section. I edited the page myself to include the BBC citation. GSSNYC (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, it would be clearer if you responded in the same section. Her death should at least be mentioned in the article body somewhere—whether in its own section or not I don't really care either way. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Sorry for the understanding. The phrase "the section regarding her death could likely be removed" threw me somewhat. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:52, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

No problem - I've edited to make that a bit clearer. GSSNYC (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I did - my response got moved by someone. It's been moved to the section in the page given that the policy on including it in the lead is only for if the death is particularly notable, which as of now it is not reported to be. GSSNYC (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

GSSNYC, I moved your comment to this new thread as I misunderstood what you meant. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah - hopefully my edit makes this clearer now. GSSNYC (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Strictly results table

Should this be retained, even in collapsed form, or removed? A number of editors have argued over at WP:ITN/C that e.g. it "doesn't add to understanding the BLP" and that "unless there is some specific facet of her appearance on one of those shows that had more impact on her life/career, the summary is just fine." Flack herself described her participation on the show as "the best experience of her life" and the final was watched in the UK by 11.67 million people. Readers might be interested to see the songs used for each of the dances, or the scores for each, but perhaps the exact score breakdown might be too just see as so much cruft. The link to the series, from where the table has been taken, appears in the lead section and the sub-section of "TV career" anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:29, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I think it should be retained, either full or collapsed - her involvement with the show is probably something readers of the article are interested in/looking for information about, so definitely should keep. MurielMary (talk) 09:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

"Radio presenter"?

Apart from a mention of a single show in 2014 and a series in 2016, I can't find much in the article that would justify the prominence of the word "radio" in the opening sentence of the article and the infobox. She was known as a television presenter. Should the words "Radio and..." be removed - or, at least, be made far less prominent in the article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Should be less prominent or removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps as an interim measure, I've changed the order to "television and radio presenter". Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:59, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Criticism of the CPS

All of the BBC's coverage of Flack's death today has mentioned the criticism by her management of the Crown Prosecution Service. In some formats it has been the main angle of reporting and discussion. It is also getting widespread coverage on many other news outlets, including the Sunday broadsheets. How can this be seen as "The "non trial" gossip"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:09, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Non trial encyclopedic gossip?

@Wallie: Just curious about this edit, removing details about the alleged assault on Burton from the personal life section. I don't want to add this back, because this is a BLP and there may be good reasons for omitting it, but this is a topic that is being covered by media, well-sourced, and seems relevant in context of her death too. Why did you think it needed to be removed?  — Amakuru (talk) 10:24, 16 February 2020 (UTC)