Talk:Dolomite (rock)

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The AGI may be hung up on tradition and precedence and therefore wish to perpetuate ambiguity by the dual use of dolomite. However, I see no reason for wikipedia to confuse readers and prefer dolostone for the rock. Vsmith 01:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

After some searching, I find no evidence to support the AGI statement about dolostone. So I have removed the bit here pending a reference:

The term dolostone was introduced in 1948 to avoid confusion with the mineral dolomite. The usage of dolostone is controversial because the word dolomite was first applied to the rock during the early nineteenth century and thus has precedence. Although use of the term dolostone avoids ambiguity, it is not recommended by the tradition bound American Geological Institute.

I find AGI publications using the term dolostone and therefore am dubious about the not reccommended statement. Vsmith 01:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

dolostone

This may seem rather petty but the term “dolostone” is not recommended for the rock composed largely of the mineral dolomite. The American Geological Institute recommends that the term “dolomite” be used for both the rock and the mineral (Jackson, 1997). This is the opinion also of most European geologists and most specialists in carbonate sedimentology and petrology (see for instance Bathurst, 1971; Tucker and Wright, 1990; and see especially Zenger and Mazzullo, 1982, page 1). The term “dolomite” actually has priority for the rock. The mineral dolomite had already been described and was termed “pearl spar” when the rock, dolomite, was first described by Deodat Guy de Dolomieu in 1791 (see the discussion by Vatan, 1958).

I must also point out that Harvey Blatt (author of the text cited by Vsmith) is a sandstone petrologist, not a specialist on carbonate rocks, Bob Tracy, the co-author, is an igneous petrologist and did not write the section of the text referred. The authors cited above, with the exception of Jackson, are all carbonate petrologists and sedimentologists. Don Zenger is one of the world's foremost specialists on dolomite.

The American Geological Institute is a dynamic organization, supported by almost all practicing geologists in the United States through their numerous professional societies. They certainly are not "hung up on tradition and precedence".

Finally, I would humbly submit that I am also considered a specialist on dolomite with numerous scholarly publications to my credit on the subject. I am new to Wikipedia but I will try to post my bio and credentials shortly.

Bathurst, R. G. C., 1975, Carbonate sediments and their diagenesis: New York, Elsevier Scientific Publishing Co., 658 p.

Jackson, J. A., 1997, Glossary of geology, Fourth edition: Alexandra, VA, American Geological Institute, 769 p.

Tucker, M. E., and Wright, V. P., 1990, Carbonate Sedimentology: Boston, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 482 p.

Vatan, A., 1958, "Dolostone": Journal of Sedimentary Petrology, v. 28, p. 514.

Zenger, D. H., and Mazzullo, S. J., eds., 1982, Dolomitization: Stroudsburg, Hutchinson Ross Publishing Co., 426 p.

The word is widely used in the geological community (including AGI publications) and it avoids ambiguity and confusion. Usage and clarity are the guide, not semantic quibbles by specialists. Vsmith 04:51, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

dolostone

I have made several minor editorial changes to the last editorial changes of VSmith, perhaps a compromise is in order. I believe that it is inappropriate to consider Geotimes a scientific publication although it is published by AGI. It is a designed to be a popular news magazine for geologists and those interested in geology. It is not a scientific journal and is almost never referenced in the scientific literature. The Glossary of Geology, another AGI Publication, is frequently cited in the formal literature and is generally regarded as a source of scientific authority (as far as there is any authority in science). AGI publishes no scholarly journals but its constituent societies do.

In the future, unless completely thwarted by my rather overwhelming workload, I would like to edit a number of articles that have to do with, in particular, carbonate rocks and perhaps contribute a few additional articles on geology. Pro bono publico! Jay Gregg 11:39 21 August, 2005

Frequent Use

After reading the discussion here I decided to do a bit of quick reconaissance on the use of the term.

From the AAPG online scientific paper search database (which searches over 14 peer reviewed geological publications):

780 out of ~70,000 items (articles and published abstracts) use the term Dolostone. Of which 271 items are exclusive uses (the word dolomite does not appear). Out of the 271 exclusive uses of the term Dolostone, 81 are published abstracts. From those 81 published abstracts, 3 were publised as a full length article (in one ot the journals searched, of course).

On the other hand, the word dolomite occurs in 9360 papers, of which 8830 are exclusive uses. Out of the 8830 exlusive uses for the term dolomite, 1750 are publised abstracts. Of the 1750 published abstracts 233 were later published as full papers (in the journals the database searched). As an interesting aside, 5946 of the 8830 items do not include the word mineral at all, 3552 of which are full papers.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions. Semantic battle aside, I cannot agree with the adverb "frequently" as a modifier to the appearance of the term dolostone in geologic literature. It's use is, at best, infrequent.

--RW, fellow geologist

Dolostone

A nice bit of research by RW and I imagine that similar results would be obtained for "Journal of Sedimentary Research" and "Sedimentology", so I must agree with RW on this issue. I believe that the word "frequently" was incerted at the insistance of VSmith. What about it VSmith? Can we drop the word "frequently?" Jay Gregg 15:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not locked in to the frequently term (such a quantitative term) - dolostone is used by a significant number of researcher. Also need a bit of analysis - the 8830 exlusive uses for the term dolomite - were these articles about the rock or about the mineral? The dual use of the word leads to more confusion - and I like to avoid being confused. Vsmith 16:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Dolostone

RW points out that the word "mineral" does not appear in the majority of these publications. Typically AAPG references to dolomite concern the rock as dolomite is an important reservoir rock. Also, AAPG Bulletin usually does not publish mineralogical articles. Jay Gregg 21:53, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Explanation of Frequent Use

I dropped back by to answer some questions.

I didn't read the articles on dolomite that excluded the use of the word mineral (descriptions of dolomite the mineral in journal articles usually go something like this, "the mineral dolomite" although I think it is safe to assume they discuss the rock dolomite specifically. There is also no guarantee that articles that include the words "mineral" and "dolomite" discuss the mineral dolomite. In fact, only 57 articles contain the string "mineral dolomite." So any other investigations to the words' use would require a lot of reading that simply isn't necessary.

Another interesting search is one of our companies (and a few others we've acquired over the years) internal non-published research: no documented uses of the word dolostone at all. Incidentally, it is the largest library of non-published, proprietary geologic research in the world.

I'm not trying to come down on one side or the other here. I personally don't get upset over dolostones use (if it helps non professionals and new learners, great!). However, I think that the context of the word dolomite when it is used in literature is so unambiguous that I find it puzzling that some geologists believe it causes confusion--I don't think that is entirely true. I can see it causing a bit of a headache when searching for specific contextual uses of the word (as I have done) but that situation is unlikely.

While the term is used by some geologists, I think the disclaimer on its use is entirely appropriate and I'm glad it was placed there. Thank you, Dr. Gregg.

--RW

Caves in Dolomite Rock

Hi Vsmith

I think there is a real issue here. I wrote the section on "Caves in Dolomite Rock" to add to the overall Wiki knowledge on the subject. I specifically included the words "Dolomite Rock" in the section title, as this is the term used by the overwhelming majority of Speleologists and Geologists worldwide. This is so evident in the universal, world renowned book edited by Hill and Forti and published by NSS - The American National Speleological Society. This is also echoed in the publication "Encyclopedia of Caves" published in the UK with over 100 articles by world-wide experts.

The point is that the wider community overwhelmingly use the words "Dolomite rock" or just "dolomite" on its own to indicate the host rock in which caves have formed. What I had written certainly ties in with the existing title of the wiki page. If anything the title of the page should be changed to read "Dolomite Rock or Dolostone" as it appears that neither the "American Geological Institute" nor the US "National Speleological Society" nor the rest of the world use this term "Dolostone". It appears to be very much a minority group using this term "Dolostone" and not universal as Wikipedia strives to achieve. Hence the sentences which you have deleted, was reinforcing that the speleological community use the term "dolomite" or "Dolomite Rock" when referring to the particular chemistry of the bedrock in which caves have been created. With all alterations to Wikipedia pages, it is easy to delete, but harder to write/add to the knowledge on a page. It also take considerable time to chase up references and add them to a page. Something which is sadly lacking on the Dolomite Rock page. I would urge you to reconsider the deletions and alterations which you have made. I look forward to your comments on this subject. Kind Regards Newcaves (talk) 07:13, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Seems folks like to promote confusion :) (per all the above posts) Anyway - I would not object to renaming the article to Dolomite rock, but there has to be a distinction between the mineral and the rock composed of the mineral. It is understandable, but unfortunate, that the geological community insists on confusion :) (but - hey its been going on for centuries :). Cheers, Vsmith (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Correspondence below included here for continuity of discussion/thread.

Hi Vsmith

I have read through the talk page of "Dolostone and Dolomite Rock" and it appears that this issue has been brewing for some years now - but no action. I personally know several speleologists who are very active in the Union Internationale de Spéléologie (UIS) and hold positions on the council of this international speleological organisation and they have always used the terms "Dolomite" or "Dolomite Rock" when referring to karst areas containing caves. This also fits in with the major literature books which are considered the bible of karst geology, caves and minerals around the world. Hence I think the move of changing the title of the "Dolostone" page to "Dolomite Rock" and the first line to "Dolomite Rock or Dolostone" is a good compromise which is long overdue. This is bearing in mind that the world wide geological community also does not recommend the use of the term dolostone. I don't have the expertise to start the ball rolling to change the page name, so would be very grateful if you could instigate this. I could then change the names in the section on caves which relates to the speleological community.

Much appreciate all your thoughts on this subject and would really appreciate it if you are able to change the title of this page - I assume that there would be links from some other pages which would need to be modified. Sorry this part of wikipedia's workings is far beyond my knowledge. Kind regardsNewcaves (talk) 13:55, 12 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newcaves (talk • contribs)

Please don't use article space to quibble about the article name. Do you have any sources regarding the mineral dolomite occurring as speleothems? If so, then let's hear it ... and keep the name arguements out of the article. Thanks, Vsmith (talk) 04:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Title of page - 'Dolostone' or 'Dolomite (rock)'?

As pointed out in the discussion above by various contributors, both the international geological community and the international speleological community do not recommend the use of the term ‘dolostone’. One can easily draw the conclusion that the term ‘dolostone’ is just used by a minority and is possibly localised in its use.

There are a considerable number of highly regarded international speleological publications that only use the terms, ‘dolomite’, ‘dolomite rock’, or ‘dolomite in the rock form’, when referring to karst areas of this rock. Despite this it appears that a minority of uncompromising Wikepedia editors remain committed to opposing any change of the title page to ‘Dolomite (rock)’. Dolomite (Rock) would be an unambiguous and satisfactory compromise and the term ‘dolostone’ could still be retained in the first sentence of the description.

Wikipedia should use title page terms, which are most widely used internationally.Newcaves (talk) 12:24, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposed name changes

Although I am a complete layman in these matters, I have been on WP for some years. If I end up being more confused at the end of an article than when I started, there's usually something going on behind the scenes: and lo and behold! a naming controversy.

Having ploughed my way through these talk pages, (yay, Bender!) I wondered what other languages call the stuff. The French and Italians have different names for the mineral, fr:Dolomite, it:Dolomite and the rock fr:Dolomie, it:Dolomia, so no problem for them. Languages like German and English confusingly use the same word for both, but German WP sensibly has de:Dolomit (Mineral) and de:Dolomit (Gestein).

In order to minimize confusion in the minds of lesser, non-scientific mortals like me and other average readers of WP, I propose that what is currently Dolomite be renamed to Dolomite (mineral), and Dolostone to Dolomite (rock). I'm posting this message on both talk pages. I leave you with the stunning alien landscape of the Cirque de Mourèze. >MinorProphet (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

• Agree with renaming the two articles to Dolomite (mineral) and Dolomite (rock). I do not like Dolomitic rock as a possible title for the rock type because its use is rare compared to "dolomite" or "dolostone". It would have been good if geologists could have widely adopted the term "dolostone" for dolomite (rock) several decades ago but unfortunately that did not happen and therefore the use of "dolostone", for the name of the rock type, is still not as widespread as dolomite. GeoWriter (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@GeoWriter, Paul H., Anthony Appleyard, Ss112, MinorProphet, Pbsouthwood, Vsmith, and IntoCaves: Hello all- Just want to alert you to recent changes made, without discussion here, by an editor new to the article. Eric ^talk 03:13, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

No strong opinion as I am not a geologist. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 04:41, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Revert. I still feel that Dolomite (rock) and (mineral) are the best possible terms to distinguish between the two forms. As I stated earlier I am not a geo- or speleologist, but this smells very like the previous discussions above. The person who made the changes has an interesting edit history, and last made an edit nearly a year ago. There is fairly obviously a faction at work here with an axe to grind (apologies if I'm wrong), and WP is not the place to re-write currently accepted terminology, especially without discussion. MinorProphet (talk) 09:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Agree with renaming the two articles to Dolomite (mineral) and Dolomite (rock). for the same reasons specified by GeoWriter. In addition:

First, I looked at the latest, online edition, 2011, of the standard glossary for geological terminology, the American Geological Institute's Glossary of Geology, which edited by Neuendorf, K.K.E., J.P. Mehl, Jr., and J.A. Jackson. They listed dolomite as the preferred term for the rock type. About dolostone, they wrote dolostone (do′-lo-stone) A term proposed by Shrock (1948a, p.126) for the sedimentary rock dolomite, in order to avoid confusion with the mineral of the same name. Not recommended; obsolete. The Glossary of Geology definitely considers the term dolomite as not recommended for usage and to be obsolete.

Second, I also looked other dictionaries and found: 1. McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Earth Science, Second Edition (2003) uses dolomite and does not list dolostone and 2. A Dictionary of EarthSciences third edition (2008), Oxford University Press, lists dolomite as the preferred usage over dolostone.

Third, in the Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, & Related Terms that was compiled and edited by the Staff of the U.S. Bureau of Mines and published by the U.S. Bureau of Mines, I found dolomite defined as ...c. A carbonate sedimentary rock consisting of more than 50% to 90% mineral dolomite, depending upon classifier, or having a Ca:Mg ratio in the range 1.5 to 1.7, or having an MgO equivalent of 19.5% to 21.6%, or having a magnesium-carbonate equivalent of 41.0% to 45.4%. Dolomite beds are associated and interbedded with limestone, commonly representing postdepositional replacement of limestone. Syn: dolostone; dolomite rock. Dolostone is defined as A term applied by some petrologists to rock consisting primarily of the mineral dolomite. Syn: dolomite. In this case, I would judge the term dolomite as the preferred terminology in terms of usage.

Finally, the United States Geological Survey's GeMS — Geologic Map Schema uses dolomite instead of dolostone for the carbonate sedimentary rock consisting chiefly of the mineral dolomite. The 2018 GeMS (Geologic Map Schema) notes: Although "dolostone" is the proper analog to “limestone”, it has not often been applied to dolomitic units; historically, the literature used "dolomite”. In its 2018 Geologic Map Schema, the United States Geological Survey clearly endorses dolomite as the rock name. Paul H. (talk) 21:18, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Restore Dolostone back to Dolomite (rock) – I like the logic of coining the term dolostone, but it seems that it just never took hold. Thanks to Paul H. for the research, though I must add as a caveat: I can say from long professional experience that the U.S. government, just as with its elected officials, does not as a rule vet material for scholarship -- nor for English fluency -- before it goes to press. Note the delightful "more than 50% to 90%" from the Bureau of Mines, which I presume was an attempt to convey more than 50%. Thanks to all for weighing in. Eric ^talk 22:58, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Disagree with restoring Dolostone back to Dolomite (rock) because Dolostone is the current term used in karst science textbooks and by the state geological surveys where dolostones are most commonly found. Even the USGS' own website redirects the term dolomite to dolostone in their searches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdecelle (talk • contribs) 23:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@Cdecelle: I signed your post for you. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with WP:SIGN. Plus, it would be better to simply list references rather than put them as footnotes. Eric ^talk 00:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I forgot to note that use of dolomite instead of dolostone in the United States Geological Survey's GeMS — Geologic Map Schema is of specific significance. The Geologic Map Schema was developed to create a standard digital database stucture and a standard terminology for use in geologic mapping that is conducted by either the United States Geological Survey (USGS) or geologic mapping by state geological survey and universities that is funded by the USGS, e.g. STATEMAP or EDMAP programs. This means from 2018 and onward, the use of dolomite instead of dolostone in USGS-funded geological mapping by higher education and state geological survey is not optional, it is mandatory as part of the Geologic Map Schema. This means that a state geological survey is mandated to use dolomite on any USGS-funded projects and deliverables. This is a deliberate choice to commit to the use of dolomite instead of dolostone in the foreseable future. Of course if a person looks at papers and maps published over the last 70 years by any organization, they will find a some people using dolomite and some people dolostone within it. Paul H. (talk) 15:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

The terms Dolomite (mineral) and Dolomite (rock) are/were unambiguous as Wikipedia article titles and I think they have worked without problems since they were renamed as those titles about a year ago. The redirect of Dolostone to Dolomite (rock) had also worked well. Unfortunately, they have always been vulnerable to the possibility of an editor wishing to rename to dolostone, as User:Cdecelle has done within the last 9 days. Changing the article title from Dolomite (rock) to Dolostone does not improve the readers ability to navigate to this rock type article nor find the separate mineral article.

A problem that affects finding which is the most commonly used term (to comply with WP:COMMONNAME) is that the term dolostone has some use in sedimentary petrology but it has had very little impact on the names of stratigraphic units (groups, formations,members) so we often get the unsatisfactory situation of some geologists who prefer dolostone, being forced to use the name dolomite when they mention rock unit names e.g. "the Geneva Dolomite Member is made of dolostone". Another problem is that searches for dolostone will give accurate usage frequency data but searches for usage frequency of dolomite are unreliable because many search hits will be for the mineral not the rock type.

The terms dolomite and dolostone, when used to describe the rock type, are definitely not obsolete. The claim of being obsolete is easily disproved in seconds because one only has to do a web search to find many recent academic articles and books that use either term.

Describing dolostone as the more accurate term or the current term (as User:Cdecelle has done in edit summaries and on this Talk page) would be valid only if it was supported by a reliable source reference stating that "dolostone not dolomite is the more accurate/current term" or words to that effect. Lists of examples of dolostone in recent usage do not show that it is more accurate or the current term, they merely show that the term is being used now. There is, however, a source supporting dolomite rather than dolostone that has gone as far as stating that dolomite is correct and dolostone is incorrect. The source is "Dolomites", a book edited by Purser et al. (1994) which was published as a review of the mineral and rock type to mark the bicentennial of Dolmieu's discovery of both the dolomite mineral and rock type. This book almost completely ignores the term dolostone except to state that "Dolostone is in the literature and preferred by many, and will surely remain, but etymologically it is incorrect".

The "Encyclopedia of Sediments and Sedimentary Rocks" (2003) states on page 127: "Most carbonate sediments and rocks (including limestones and dolomites or dolostones)..."; on page 131: "Dolostones are carbonate rocks consisting of the mineral dolomite"; on page 234: "Dolostone is a rock that consist (sic) of >75 percent dolomite. Dolostones are also called dolomites, especially in the literature prior to about 1990, but the term dolomites should only be used for different types of dolomite ... the origin of dolomites and dolostones is subject to considerable controversy."; on page 236: "The most widely used classification of dolomite/dolostone textures is ..."; on page 237: "a wide range of geochemical methods may be used to characterize dolomites and dolostones." These phrases suggest to me that the authors of that encyclopedia regard dolomite as the mineral and dolostone as the rock and that dolomite should not be used for the rock type.

The British Geological Survey's sediment and sedimentary rock classification scheme (1999) states that "Sedimentary rocks which are composed dominantly of dolomite or ankerite are given the group name dolostone."

Encyclopedia Britannica redirects occurrences of dolostone to dolomite (rock).

If only the French word dolomie, the original non-English name for the rock type, had been translated into English as dolostone way back in 1794, this naming mess could have been avoided. The dolomite/dolostone debate will probably continue for many years. This naming topic is as clear as thick dolomitic mud.

I now have no strong objection to either dolomite (rock) or dolostone for this article's title. Dolostone is probably less confusing than dolomite. Dolostone is also less ambiguous and more elegant than dolomite or dolomite (rock) as a term to describe the rock type in the main text of the article and in the text of other related articles.

— GeoWriter (talk) 22:03, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Cdecelle: Since I don't have the textbooks which you quote to hand, I would be grateful for actual quotations and page numbers from the works you cite. If this were a trivial matter, a web page or two from a US State authority might well suffice. But you have made substantial changes to WP without first discussing them on this page, and it is up to you to convince everyone else here that your changes reflect the mainstream of current scientific thought. We have been here before. MinorProphet (talk) 23:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@MinorProphet:Yes of course. Ford and Williams in their 2007 "Karst Hydrogeology and Geomorphology" state on page 9 that "There are two common, pure mineral end-members, limestone(composed of calcite or aragonite) and dolostone (dolomite). Most authors neglect ‘dolostone’ and describe both the mineral and the rock as dolomite." I unfortunately do not have Cave Geology on hand as it is in my office, which I am not allowed into at the moment... For what it's worth, the 1999 "Karst Modeling" edited by the same author as Cave Geology, Arthur Palmer uses the term Dolostone on pages 22 and 35. Ford and Williams', and Palmer's textbooks are very well known. Palmer's Cave Geology more for the layman (although still quite thorough) and Ford and Williams' for research/professional use.

I believe that if you look at many scientific articles you will see both dolostone, and dolomite used seemingly randomly. I assume this is because the USGS has seemingly done so for ages and researchers use whatever term is found in the geologic map which they have used for their research. To show it seems random and not geographically constrained, I can point to this USGS site which has many dolostones described as such (and the definition described at the top uses the term Dolostone). I believe the USGS has formalized dolostone as the preferred, and much less confusing term and mainstream textbooks use the term as well.

As a side note, I'd like to thank those who have been helping to show me some editing stuff and fixing some of my errors.Cdecelle (talk) 00:58, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I need to study this some more. As I am confused Paul H. (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

References

The heading currently shown as "Caves in Dolostone" should be changed immediately back to "Caves in Dolomite" as all the references in this section use the term dolomite (with no mention of dolostone). I totally agree with renaming the two articles to Dolomite (mineral) and Dolomite (rock). IntoCaves (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

@IntoCaves: A quick search found articles related to speleogenesis and speleothems pulled up articles in the NSS Journal on the formation of caves in dolostone (the word they used) by Hydrogen Sulfide->Sulfuric Acid (Polyak and Provencio 2001). I added a sentence in the "Caves in Dolostone" section about this H2SO4 process. Another article "Climate and cave control on Pleistocene/Holocene calcite-to-aragonite transitions in speleothems from Morocco: Elemental and isotopic evidence" by authored by 9 researches from Germany and morrocco, where the word Dolostone is used instead of Dolomite ( Wassenburg et al 2012). Cdecelle (talk) 17:32, 21 April 2020 (UTC)