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Delink dates in sig and clean up
m Louismuyalde1234 moved page Talk:2017 Barcelona attacks to Talk:2017 August Barcelona Spain attacks: 2017 August Barcelona Spain attacks
(No difference)

Revision as of 06:57, 30 April 2020


Requested move 26 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 09:48, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2017 Barcelona attacks → 2017 Catalonia attacks – Per outcome of WP:Move review, this proposal is relisted. In order to reach a clearer outcome, I am restarting this discussion from scratch. I presume interested parties are watching the page, and will participate as they desire. This relisting is perfunctory; I have no preference on the question. bd2412 T 19:07, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support move for the reasons I listed above last time. But what happens if it is the same as last time? 85% majority argue for the title to be 2017 Catalonia Attacks - but the 15% keep getting the article relisted as 2017 Barcelona Attacks? Reaper7 (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reaper7, I advise you to GIVE your reasons, even if you copy/paste them from last time, no one will remember them nor go looking for them. This discussion is NOT A VOTE, if opposers make a stronger policy-based argument, that will "win the day". Pincrete (talk) 07:50, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support move as per WP:PRECISION and WP:RELIABLE. Reaper7 (talk) 19:07, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per WP:COMMONNAME, While I agree that 'Catalonia' is slightly more accurate, since the second attack and an explosion and several other related events happened outside Barcelons, nonetheless Eng-speaking sources are referring to this as 'Barcelona' by a massive factor. All these events were related to the initial attack in Barcelona and the text makes clear that some events were elsewhere in Catalonia. As another editor said in the previous discussion, "The name should be that which a person using Wikipedia would be most likely to use." and that is clearly 'Barcelona'. Many historical events are remembered with names that trade-off accuracy against ease-of-rememberance (Pearl Harbor attack happened inland in Hawaii, as well as in PH itself, most of the Battle of Midway happened well away from Midway, conversely, the Battle of Britain only happened in SE England, and this happened in a place which few will remember, and the Battle of Hastings wasn't in Hastings at all).Pincrete (talk) 08:12, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: per WP:COMMONNAME The Attack on Pearl Harbour was an attack in various points of Hawaii, so arguments related to a secondary failed attack outside Barcelona is invalid. The other incidents were not attacks at all, just incidents. In the English language the vast majority of sources refer to it as Barcelona attacks. The basic attack was in Barcelona and the objective was always Barcelona (even though the botched operation also led to a foiled attack in Cambrils). Note, I agree with Catalonia attacks being the name for the article in the Spanish wiki because that is the most common name in the SPANISH press and sources. In English, we should stick to Barcelona attacks. I also don't like the political connotations of presenting it as an attack on the political entity of Catalonia, which it evidently wasn't, so there is also an WP:NPOV concern here. Gaditano23 (talk) 09:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've also noted the NPOV issue in my reply (to bring it down), but just to reply to you: Catalonia is an autonomous community. It is both an administrative and geographical region in Spain widely recognized as such, so I don't see where is the "political connotation" of using it as part of the title. Unless you specifically want to point to one or want to mix such an issue with the current Catalan crisis in Spain (which has nothing to do with this), the title by itself has no political connotation at all (not more so than using 'Barcelona', indeed). Impru20 (talk) 10:29, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:PRECISION. The scope of the article covers several events which happened throughout Catalonia (two of them did not even happen within the province of Barcelona, but in Tarragona), so 'Barcelona attacks' would not be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article. Also, I'm not sure WP:COMMONNAME applies to 'Barcelona' given that, when most sources use it, do so to refer specifically to the Ramblas van attack. Yet they also use 'Cambrils attacks' to refer to the other event (i.e. the BBC, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, EuroNews, The Telegraph, CNN, etc, when they speak of the 'Barcelona AND Cambrils' attacks), so COMMONNAME does not apply (unless you wanted to name the article as "2017 Barcelona and Cambrils attacks", which would also be PRECISE). I would not object to 'Barcelona attacks' if the only attack had happened in Barcelona, but Cambrils was also a target, and it was not a concurrent event to the attack in Barcelona (which is one of the main differences with other events I've seen reported here, such as 'Pearl Harbour attack', where the main targets were the port and the ships within there even if concurrently such an attack spread to other locations in Hawaii). We also have, for an example of a similar event, January 2015 Île-de-France attacks, which uses the name of a region as the article title due to attacks happening in different locations instead of just 'Paris attacks'. I also disagree 'Catalonia' has any political connotation of any kind, since it is a legal administrative division just as Andalusia, Extremadura, Galicia or any other autonomous community in Spain, so NPOV would not apply here, either. Impru20 (talk) 09:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick comment Impru20 Note there is a solid rationale for "January 2015 Île-de-France attacks", which sounds very weird and normally against policy: There are long separate articles for each of the sub-components of that attack such as Charlie Hebdo shooting (which occurred inside Paris), hence the need for Precision. If we had an article on Cambrils attack then I would tend to agree with you. But in the case of Barcelona the Cambrils event is secondary enough to not require an article, particularly since it was not even planned for that location.Gaditano23 (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find such a rationale in the January 2015 Île-de-France attacks talk page or anywhere. There were four events there, of which two (Charlie Hebdo and Dammartin-en-Goële) are covered in the same separate article, and another one (Fontenay-aux-Roses and Montrouge) has no separate article at all, with 'January 2015 Île-de-France attacks' covering all of these as a single chain of events (some of them having their own articles due to sheer size of information, but that is not something that could not happen here either). In this case, there are plenty of sources highlighting the Cambrils attack as a separate event to the one in Barcelona, so that already brings down the COMMONNAME claim (with 'Barcelona attack' referring only to the Ramblas van attack). That it was "planned" or not is not relevant for the title (the Barcelona attack was not planned the way it finally happened, either, nor was the Dammartin-en-Goële event). Again, see PRECISION: titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. The scope of the article is not about the Barcelona attack only, but about the four events as a whole (it is even stated as such in the lead section and in the infobox, where all events are reported on their own). So, '2017 Barcelona attack' would be too precise to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article. As for the NPOV reason brought forward, 'Catalonia' is a widely recognized name for the region in administrative and geographical terms, both within and outside Spain, so there is no political connotation use here either. Impru20 (talk) 10:53, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Impru20, personally, I think "Île-de-France attacks" is a bad choice of names, most people not familiar with France and Paris don't know that this is the correct local name for the 'Paris region'. Those with a basic knowledge of French will wonder where this 'French island' is, and why it was attacked, whereas most people will remember in 5 years time that attacks took place in and around Paris. 'Catalonia' is more familiar to English speakers than 'Île-de-France', but I still think that most people will not remember this event as happening in Catalonia. Pincrete (talk) 22:59, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's a random mixing of policies here. Most people opposing the move bring COMMONNAME, but don't bring up any sources showing that the whole chain of events (and not just the van attack in Las Ramblas) is dubbed as this in English media. This article's topical scope is not just on that attack, but on the whole chain of events, and I fear it is being overlooked by those bringing up COMMONNAME. Other examples brought here (Pearl Harbour, Hastings) focus on a single battle/attack, which is not the case here either (also barring the fact those are key historical events whose titles unambiguously meet all naming criteria). On the naturalness of the title (which I think is what you mean when speaking of "what are people going to search for/remember"), I think the issue here is that most people see this as an article covering only the Barcelona attacks, when it is referred to in a small section of the article only. If people want a "Barcelona attack"-only article, then one should be created. The topical scope of the article covers separate (even if connected) events, and the title should not only be NATURAL, but also PRECISE.
In the case of the 'Île-de-France' article, it may be a title which is not very natural, but then, it is just as precise as needed (whereas using 'Paris' would be far too precise). Also, Wikipedia's title for the article covering the region is, indeed, Île-de-France, and not 'Parisian Region' or 'Region of Paris', no matter how much more likely are people going to search for these. Subsequently, the event article's title is named like that as per WP:NCE structure: when, where, what. The same would be applied here, IMHO. Impru20 (talk) 12:48, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose re common name and Catalonia is POV and hence contradicts our NPOV policy. Catalonia is not a country or a city, I'd prefer to see Spain attacks except that Barcelona is the common name. We must be very careful to be neutral re Catalonia in this tense political time and not take sides and Barcelona is the neutral option. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:06, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 'Catalonia' is the widely recognized name for the autonomous community/region comprising the territories where the events happened, both in English and Spanish sources. WP:NCE does not require the place of the event being a "country" or "city", so there's no POV issue here at all. Also, 'Barcelona' is only the common name for the van attacks in Las Ramblas, but plenty of sources refer to the Cambrils attack separately ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]). Impru20 (talk) 12:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree wholeheartedly that 'Catalonia', is in no way PoV and the 'independence' issue should be irrelevant here. Scotland is still Scotland whether it is part of the UK or a country in its own right. Pincrete (talk) 13:31, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:PRECISION as there were locations outside Barcelona involved, and it is therefore misleading to describe all of these incidents as being Barcelona attacks. In response to the point made by RichardWeiss, it is not POV to use the term Catalonia, since regardless of any current political crisis, Catalonia is recognised as a region, and these incidents were confined to that region. We are merely describing events that occurred in a particular part of a country, and the independence referendum has nothing to do with this topic anyway. This is Paul (talk) 14:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree wholeheartedly that we should not get involved either way with any 'local' disagreement about the status of Catalonia. Catalonia EXISTS, currently as a region and it is not PoV to either use, nor not use that name here. Whatever we choose to call this article is neither acknowledging nor denying any aspirations or claims that Catalonia might have to independence. Most readers on Eng WP are not going to be concerned at all about that issue in relation to these attacks. Whilst we would not want to offend either Catalan nor Spanish readers, their preferences are not our primary concern. Pincrete (talk) 23:12, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above !vote was copied from the above RM but obviously I've updated the results as well as changed the results from "attack" to "attacks"- Although it's not in the millions like it was above it's still a huge amount compared to Catalonia so as such as I still believe COMMONNAME would apply, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 14:43, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, the first attack took place in Barcelona, a second attack took place in Cambrils (quite some way from Barcelona) a few days later. Other events relating directly to these two attacks, (including a - presumed accidental - explosion), also took place some distance from Barcelona, but were not attacks. Pincrete (talk) 16:39, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But the "majority of reliable sources" refer specifically to the event in Barcelona when referring to the "Barcelona attack", not to the wider series of events which do also constitute the primary topical scope of this article. I've seen no one of those basing their claim on COMMONNAME commenting that a majority of sources also refer to the other main attack as "Cambrils attack". "2017 Barcelona and Cambrils attacks" could be argued under COMMONNAME, but definitely not "2017 Barcelona attack" (which does not comply with PRECISE either). Impru20 (talk) 20:06, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 19:47, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

2017 Barcelona attacks → 2017 Barcelona van attacks – 'Attack' is very vague and could mean anything. Mentioning 'van' makes the name much more recognisable (per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY). The 2016 Nice truck attack page has also recently gotten its present name with the addition of 'truck' rather than just attack. Gateshead001 (talk) 21:55, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2019

Building credited as Nereu Ramos Palace is actually Brazilian National Congress Palace, so that's what I was trying to edit. Tadeusposito (talk) 23:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done: see Special:Diff/922908048. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 02:35, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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