Talk:Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi/Archive 1

Archive 1

Plz put a photo of the Gumbad shareef

Gumbad shareef photo with a quote should be put Alahazrat Quote.jpeg MeeranQadiri (talk) 09:44, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@MeeranQadiri: An image of the what? I don't find that term mentioned at all in the article. —C.Fred (talk) 12:34, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

His education

Ahmed Raza Khan Qadri was student of Mirza Gulam Qadir Beg who was from Bareilly city.

During childhood days Ahmed Raza taught under him. Due to similarity of names opponents of Ahmed Raza Khan have spread lies that his teacher was brother of Qadiyani founder. The brother of Mirza Gulam Ahmed Qadiyani , Mirza Ghulam Qàdir was a in Police department , a Thanedar and died in 1883 at the age of 55. While Mirza Ghulam Qàdir Beg, teacher of Ahmed Raza Khan was an Islamic Scholar and he died at the age of more than 80. In 1897, that is, after 14 years of death of the brother of Qadyani. Mirza Ghulam Qàdir Beg of A‘lahazrat had sent a letter to A‘lahazrat, which duly finds its place in Fatwa-i-Razavia vol. III. That's why no neutral researcher or research has ever mentioned this lie. One of your source is totally sectarian fabrication and based on lie written by Ahsan Ilahi Zaheer (Wahabi/Ahle Hadeeth) and another does not support claim. More over there are several hundred such false claims charged against each other in their sectarian debates which are never supported by RS. You and several other editors have reverted non reliable book of Ahsan Ilahi Zaheer in the recent past also. It should enough for you that Ahmed Raza Khan has written several books against Qadiyani faith and considered it heretical. Your first source does not support your claim and second source is sectarian biased utter lie and fabrication of realities. This unreliable source can't be taken to establish fringe theories. More over you said that burden is on me, no dear burden is on you to provide reliable source because your are bringing new theory based on false claims written by an opponent. ScholarM (talk) 06:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I have given three sources. Also I have given due wight to the information. Where is the page number of Fatwa Rizwiyyah please?FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Brother of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani, Ghulam Qadir beg was appointed to a minor post in the civil administration of the district at Gurdaspur, at a distance of approximately eighteen miles from Qadian. While Ahmed Raza as a child got education under his teacher who was an Islamic scholar in Bareilly. There is no connection between two and Ahsan Ilahi Zaheer's book is full of lies and fabrication. Qadiyan is in Punjab province while Bareilly is in Uttar Pradesh Province. These lies were spread but could never be established. Ahmed Raza never traveled to Qadiyan and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani's brother who was in civil service never settled in Bareilly city. In your own second source there is nothing which support your claim . The description of Ahmed Raza's teacher is given as, he was an old man of 80 years old Mawlana from Bareilly which contradicts your claim. Your third [ http://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulifta-deoband/78568 source] is also sectarian website full of polemics and is not third party source. So there are no reliable source in support of your fringe theory. ScholarM (talk) 07:26, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

The word Barech does not appear in Pashtun/Pakhtun genealogical histories in Afghan sources originating in Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwa. It is mentioned in Hindustani sources originating in India. At most it can be said that those linked to such backgrounds are of Pathan descent but certainly not Pashtun as culturally, linguistically or ethnically they are not Afghan nor Pashtun/Pakhtun. In many written sources about Ahmed Raza he has been linked to Rajput origin and hence the adoption of the name Khan which clearly indicates a Hindu origin for people with the name Khan (originally Khanzada which was a translation for Rajput. The sad fact is Muslim Rajputs claim such pride in their ethnic origin but not in the surname Singh - as proud Hindu bearers of that name. Furthermore, Khan is an ethnic name of the only modern survivors of White Huns or Ephtalites. The authors of Hobson-Jobson, the Anglo-Indian Dictionary (1886) lament the fact that the name Khan has been debased in India by all classes who have started adopting it. They also list the name as a title, as well as a surname,properly of Pashtuns, Pakhtuns or Pathans. It is further of interest that In Pakistan many people claiming suddenly discovery that someone of their ethnicity had Khan as a surname, or was of Rajput background, have started adding Khan to their names in the mistaken belief they have a right to the name - if that was true then all Rajput Sikhs and Hindus also have that name too. An prominent example of this is the Bhuttos of Sindh. Ever since GM Syed, the great Sindhi nationalist, mentioned that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was not a proper Sindhi as his forefathers came to the province from Punjab and were of Rajput origin. Thus Fatima Bhutto reproduced her family tree, mentioning thet it was commissioned by her grandfather ZA Bhutto, and added Khan to every one of her male ancestors. As Stan Lee the founder of Marvel Comics used to write - 'nuff said'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:4689:2A00:7851:3178:8999:AEC0 (talk) 15:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Ahmad Raza Khan's scientics & Quranic approach and Earh stationary claim

Ahmad Raza Khan's (popularly known in the indian subcontinent by the title Aala Hazrath ) opinion about earth being stationary is not supported by the Holy Quran. It was his interpretation of the Quran whereas a closer look at the Quran reveals that the Quran never stated earth as stationary. The proof for this is in Ahmad Raza Khan's own writings where he has provided Quranic references and Ahadith.

Ahmad Raza quoted a number of verses from the Holy Quran and Hadith, the translation of some of which is given below:

   1. The movement of the sun and moon is according to a course (Surah Rahman, verse 5).
   2. The sun and the moon are sailing within a circle (Surah Yasin, verse 40).
   3. The moon and the sun were besieged for you, which are constantly moving (Surah Ibrahim, verse 33).

(For detailed please refer to "Nuzool-e-Ayat-e-Furqaan Besukoon-e-Zameen-o-Asman" of Alahazrat written in 1339 A.H., published from Raza Academy, Bombay). http://sunnirazvi.net/library/booklets/scientist.htm http://hayateraza.com/scientific-work-of-AalaHazrat.html

Now in the above 3 references only the movement of the sun and moon is mentioned. Nowhere does it state that the earth is stationary nor does it state that they move or revolve around the earth. It was Ahmad Raza Khan's personal interpretation not supported by Ahadith or Quran which led him to conclude that movement of sun and moon means around earth. Neither the Islamic literature nor majority of the scholars of Islam interpret the movement of sun and moon as movement around the earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mubeenkhateeb (talk • contribs) 12:31, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

In the subheading which tells about the knowledge of ahmad raza khan about physics, it is written that Islam says that the Earth is stationary while the Sun orbits it. It is utterly incorrect. Learned modern scholars like Dr. Zakir Naik and others do not interpret these verses and ahadith regarding orbital motion as they are stated in this article. So, I request you remove that part in which it is said that Earth is stationary and Sun revolves around it. Islam can never say such unscientific things. Uzisar (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with you. The findings of Ahmed Rida Khan was controversial and unscientific and reference to his findings should be removed from this article. Majority of Muslim intellectuals do not agree with this claim.Marrigreat (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

  Majority of Muslims scholars do not interprete these verses and Hadith regarding orbital motion as stated by Ahmed Rida Khan. Science also proved that the findings of Mr. Rida are just ignorance of the truth. These claimes should be removed from the Wikipedia. 203.130.7.109 (talk) 06:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Disagreement is not enough, you have to prove if you thing its wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.203.250.83 (talk) 14:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

• Well I don't think so, If you go through and study the beliefs and concepts of Muslim Scholars from 1400 years back to now, you will come to know that Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Brailvi is absolutely Correct. If you want to debate on this on Islamic/Religious grounds I am here for.

  He wrote books on this controversial topic, but these books are in Urdu Language, If you can have argue with me, I will provide you the reference material.

• The Scientific work of Imam Ahmad Raza Hanfi Qadri Brailvi is on following topics according to (Proved with Islam and Science)::

Physical Sciences Mathematics, Physics, Space Physics Metaphysics, Astronomy, Geology, Petrology, Oceanography, Geography, Topology, Phonography, Hydrodynamic, Fluid Mechanics Medical Sciences Biology, Parapsychology, Physiology, Genetics, Embryology, Leprosy, Plague, Ultrasound Mechanism, Blood Circulatory system, Evolution theory of Human being (Work of Imam Ahmad Raza in various Disciplines of Science Idara Tahqeeqat-e- Imam Ahmad Raza International Pakistan)

I believe brothers, you must know we are not here to prove Islam by science or logic Islam is a religion of facts you believe or you don't doesn't matters its your lack of faith, there are many Quranic verses which are not proved by science so what now you don't believe in those verses? See first off all we have to remember Quran is a word of Allah and Science is a word of human so there may be false in science but nt and never be in Quran, as I said Quran is a word of Allah so some of Islamic scholars reach the depth of the Quranic verse and get the correct notion some satisfy themselves on the usual meaning, so any time if we hear some thing then we have to see from where he is giving the reference and to what depth he is in his knowledge. As talking about Ahmed Rada Khan Barelvi his knowledge is beyond our boundaries of knowledge and he is no equal to today's scholerly people he is a unique personality and a reviver of Deen.

In Surah Al kahaff there is a verse which explains the movement of Sun but not of earth that means sun is in motion around earth. Which is referred by Ahmed Rada Khan.

And similarly he proved it by hadiths, so if you are addicted to science then its your illness..

Many things from the Quran are still to reveal and they definitely be revealed one day by Allah's wish.

There is a saying that 'Science is a blind man walking in the dark holding a stick in his hand' it says what ever theory says theory fails science fails. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.123.34 (talk) 21:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

A'ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza khan Al-Qadiri Al-Barkati Al-Hanfi Al-Barelvi (rahimahullahu) neither mistook nor misinterpreted Quran & Hadith. He refuted all modern sophastic views of Greeks in the light of Quran & Hadith as well as in the light of salaf's teaching. If anyone who accuses him of misinterpreting this issue, can debate me regarding this topic. Your disagreement doesn't suffice, until u nullify his arguments with evidences. Show me any Quranic statement or Hadith saying earth's rotation or revolution, but on the contrary I will debunk all the myths of earth's motion in the light of Islamic sources along with scientifically.... In sha Allah azz wa jall — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qasim-ul-Qadiri (talk • contribs) 18:50, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Untitled

I am a moderator of the source page/Forum quoted in the Copyright violation notice, it was one of our Forum Founders who has authored this piece and another Founder member who had started this page on WikiPedia.

The material was not copyrighted by us. Please restore this page ! See http://www.sunniport.com/portal/viewtopic.php?p=300 for explicit notice on this material NOT being under any copyright.

Admin Team www.sunniport.com

Ok. That note at the top of the page: "Note : This content is free for distribution or republishing and is not under any copyright" is quite sufficient. I've removed the copyvio notice, and noted the point at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. Thanks so much for helping clear this up! And thanks esspecialy for contributing to Wikipedia, we really need better material on Islamic topics. 04:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Imam Raza Khan and Ahmad Raza

A-salaam-o-alaikum-Rahmen-ALLAH,

Tonight, I found the Imam Raza Khan on the clean-up page and thought i would edit it. I have two new sources that you don't have (well you don't have any) I think it would be good to join the best that i have written and the whole of your site. It makes no sense to keep people going to a wrong site and being confused. join them together please brother. It serves no point to let them be seperate. Mike33 22:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Please Change Ahmed_Raza_Khan to Imam_Ahmed_Raza_Khan

I do very much agree with this, the title should be with respect to his stature and atleast Imam should be added.75.53.213.46 (talk) 05:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Nayeem

I am Agree Ahmed_Raza_Khan title must be changed to Imam_Ahmed_Raza_Khan like some other Muslim scholars have got Moulana or Imam with their Name in WikiPage. Please Do it WikiPedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.152.52.131 (talk) 19:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Titles do not normally get included in articles names. Especially disputed ones - SimonLyall (talk) 11:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

• complete name is Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Hanfi Qadri Brailvi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.56.21.162 (talk) 12:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The sources, which says ahmed raza khan was in support of Pakistan. So its very wrong. He was not in favor of separation of pakistan. As if the people attached here are against ahmed raza khan. Hence forth, trying to manipulate the facts.

Ahmed raza supported independence movement with his father naqi ali khan.

For reference all books are available. Khalid razvi (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Edited School of Thought section

I have added two references, fixed spelling, and removed some dishonest writing (i.e. writing wahhabi and linking deobandi page). Thanks Wa Salam Alaikum 58.111.113.52 08:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC) (AN-MEL)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"RESEARCH ON A'LA HAZRAT'S FAUZ-E-MOBEEN: Scientists from the Allama Iqbal Open University in Islamabad have taken a keen interest in researching A'la Hazrat's (alaihir rahmah) "Fauz-e-Mobeen" which deals with the movement of the sun and planets around the earth. At present, research is about to commence on the subject.

CHRISTIAN CONVERTS TO ISLAM AFTER READING "KANZUL IMAAN": In 1974, Dr. Hannif Faatimi of London University brought the Professor of Kuwait an English translation of "Kanzul Imaan" (A'la Hazrat's translation of the Holy Quran) for printing. Prof. Faatimi at that time had met a Christian scholar who had revealed that he was interested in reading more about Islam. Prof. Faatimi was two-minded about giving him an English copy of Kanzul Imaan. Eventually, he gave him a copy to read. The Christian scholar, after reading this translation, accepted Islam." This stuff is blatant POV violation

NPOV

This article clearly lacks sources and assumingly does not satisfy the required NPOV standards of Wikipedia. Scythian1 (talk) 05:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Section Criticism is once again inserted

There are many users who don't have enough temper to bear a section of criticism in this article.Why???Marrigreat (talk) 06:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous article

This article is an awful mess. It is full of POV and bias, and what is even more shocking is that it is biased towards two points of view at the same time! People are just tacking on whatever they like to the article as if it is some kind of talk page. The block about science says both that Ala Hazrat was a brilliant scientist who disproved geocentrism, AND that he was a poor scientist that simply embarrassed Islam! At least make your POV bias and vandalism consistant!

91.105.161.37 (talk) 23:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

this is pure vandalism .. it should be edited by a neutral source .. its is highly biased against the deobandi sect of muslims and goes on even to call them kafirs (non muslims).. These are point of view of the author(s) trying to market/propogate their sect and not facts .. which is against the very spirit of our wikipedia community. [Talha Aziz] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aziz talha (talk • contribs) 07:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Proof Reading

I've done an awful lot of proof reading, and I hope you lot are happy with it. If you object with my corrections: please brothers, take it from a born and bred Englishman. I've noticed that there is a glitch of some sort after the part in the article where it says "therefore disobeying the following hadith"- I hope to fix this after getting some help, and I would not like anyone to revert the changes I have made since it was strenuous work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huss4in (talk • contribs) 09:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Changes Reverted

It appears as if the strenuous grammatical proof reading i've done has been reverted. Thats quite disappointing but if people prefer bad, influent grammar as a way to present to the world the founder of their religious school, thats fine by me. It seems a fellow brothers work isn't appreciated by some, which doesn't bother me since that is the reason why there is so much ignorance in that part of the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huss4in (talk • contribs) 19:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

More edits

I have edited to:

• remove repeated links and links to plain English words per WP:OVERLINK
• remove date links per MOS:SYL
• fix the capitalization of headings per WP:MOSHEAD

and other copyedits per WP:MOS. Ground Zero | t 03:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Need for further editing

This article is very messy, and in parts the English needs correcting (as someone seems to have tried, but his corrections were apparently deleted).

Perhaps it might be an idea to transfer the earth-centric information to a separate article, perhaps an article on one of his books on the subject (Such as Nuzool-e Ayat-e Furqan ...).

There is also too much fancy wording in places. Energyworm (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with your assesment of the quality of the English used I've made some minor emendations myself I'm just waiting to see how long they last before I do anything more extensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rj ws (talk • contribs) 13:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Repeated reversions to a POV variant by Thelonerex

Each time this article has been cleaned up by other editors, others have swooped in (particularly Thelonerex at this point) to swap in an extremely POV version of this article. Just as a brief example, here are a few of the more egregious POV quotes from that version:

• Ala Hazrat has been recognized as the great Mujaddid of the 19th century
• A collection of fatwas by the title of Fatawa Ridawiyya, is his magna carta.
• his saintly guide His holiness Shah Aale- Rasool Marehravi
• & his noble son Maulana Hamid Raza Khan
• Main specialty of Kanzul Iman is Imam Ahmad Raza preserved the high status of Allah & his Messenger in the translation.
• The students of Arabic have considered the intellect of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan in this field. Applauding the ability of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan in the science of Hadith
• An uncommon feature of Fatawa Ridawiyya is that it is hailed by among friends and foes alike.
• Antagonism towards modern day deviant sects
• For a full exposé of deviant heretical sects and the verdicts against them according to traditional Sunni Islam, one can obtain English copies of Husam al Harmain from Raza Academy Ltd. based in Stockport in the United Kingdom, as well as many other works of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan.

This version of the article is completely unacceptable, and I don't understand why Barelvi editors would even want such a fawning article, given that any neutral person reading it would discount it as propaganda and self-flattery rather than genuine scholarly information about a Barelvi intellectual. Any Barelvi who is reverting this article to the POV variant is doing his group no favors, as he is simply making his own side look intellectually dishonest. I suggest that all neutral editors interested in maintaining an objective article be vigilant: the POV version is about 23kB, the correct one is 10kB, so if you note a sudden byte jump in the history that's a good sign that someone is tampering with the article again. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Further explanation: Responding to Thelonerex Edit summary this article is constantly being altered on unreasonable grounds and being unjustifiably shortened than its original length, first read the above examples of improper POV material. Aside from those, and many other POV portions, there are a couple other issues:

• The 23kB version lists many names without giving wikilinks or any other indication of notability to the casual reader, making it an "example farm"
• That version has a lot of long anecdotes which could be easily summarized in a sentence or two, and whose long versions are unencyclopedic and full of POV implications
• Thelonerex keeps removing the Criticism section, showing a total disregard for neutrality
• That version has way too many ELs
• That version overexplains many terms, such as "wuzu" (which is not its Wikipedia-convention spelling, should be wudu) which are given good explanation in the wikilink
• Overall that version has a strong pro-Barelvi bias, has derogatory tone about the Ahmadiyya, has long anecdotes without justification, too many ELs, and is overall just not a good Wikipedia article, and far inferior to the 10kB version which, though not perfect, is relatively good. Please do not revert to the 23kB Thelonerex version without making a very, very clear case here which responds to these points. Honestly, I don't think there is any reasonable rebuttal, but I'd rather hear a rebuttal than have editor's work reverted out-of-hand for POV reasons. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Move article to Ahmed Raza Khan

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page already moved by someone. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

---

Aala Hazrat → Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi —

• Setting aside the major POV problems of the article itself, this article should be moved to "Ahmed Raza Khan", as "Aala Hazrat" is an extremely POV honorific. The proposed name change appears to be the most common spelling. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 08:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

On second look, I have proposed deleting Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi, and moving this article's text to that title. The text here is better since I did today's cleanup, and the Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi title seems the clearest and most neutral. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ahmed_Raza_Khan_Barelvi. I've nominated that article for deletion as a content fork, and then we can move this article there, and re-direct all possible alternate spellings to the good article to prevent future forks. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inconsistency of names

The title of the article is Ahmed Rida Khan; immediately under it is Ahmad Raza Khan; the Urdu version reads Maulana A. R. Khan (I write AR to avoid the above alternation in transliterated spellings), and the Hindi reads as Imam Ahmad Raza Khan. Further into the article he is referred to as A‘lahazrat, which is the title by which adherents of the Bareilvi School of Thought now refer to him; non-Bareilvi Muslims, or non-Muslims will be confused to a degree as to who this A‘lahazrat is.

It might be an idea to make the main page Ahmad Raza Khan, since that is the Urdu / Hindi pronunciation of his name; Rida is an approximation of the Arabic name, and he was not an Arab. Whatever is done, some degree of consistency is needed. Energyworm (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Giant quotes?

The sections like Works in physics appear to be quotes. Are they? If so, they should be quoted and sourced.—C45207 | Talk 07:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The article has been neutralized

A significant effort has been made in this respect, please further improve the article but don't alter the entire article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelonerex (talk • contribs) 14:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Neutral"? The October 21 version of the article refers to the Ahmaddiya as a "deviant sect". The version you cite as neutral is extremely, extremely biased. I have reverted to an earlier version from over six months ago, and done further cleanup on even that version. Please do not re-introduce these biases which have ruined the article for months. "Neutral" does not mean "pleasing to my side of the argument." Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)