Talk:Insurgency in Balochistan

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Recent edits

@Neheart Could you please use the talk page to make contestable changes, and also provide reliable sources for your changes. You used a misleading edit summary and did not provide a reason for adding Turkey or removing Iran from the infobox. Mar4d (talk) 11:49, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Baloch flag

I (User:Vif12vf) just changed the flag-file for Balochistan. I know i should have discussed it here first. If you think the edit was wrong then please remove it. The new flag-file may be found here: [1]

New reverted edits

I came here after [2], the reverted edits by IP and @Boby1305:[3] do seem WP:OR, and not supported by the given source.[4] Capitals00 (talk) 10:08, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Jamaat-E-Islami carrying out attacks against Shi'ites

I just noticed that the article claims that 'the Islamist parties Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Jamaat-e-Islami have targeted Shia Muslims'. One user removed this line as it was false but it was reverted. I'm not exactly sure what the point of contention is here as the Laskhar-e-Jhangvi is not an Islamist party but a banned militant group and the Jamaat-E-Islami has not been implicated in any terrorist attacks on Shi'ite Muslims and the citation does not make any mention of them being involved in any attacks. With that being said, I'm going to undo the revert. Von oberstein (talk) 06:02, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Von oberstein I have added Laskhar-e-Jhangvi back since there are multiple sourced which already attribute them for attacks on Shias. Please do due diligence when you remove content. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 18:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Alleged

Raymond123: IMO, alleged is still correct. What Modi's speech was making were essentially allegations, and amidst that charged political rhetoric, India's relations/history vis-a-vis Pakistan, it is neutral and not inappropriate. It is much ado about one word, yet correct. See WP:NPOV. Regards, Mar4d (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

But there are also many separate organizations that state them as facts. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

There is a difference however between such organisations and a head of state making political rhetoric above a podium. Context matters in relation to sources. Mar4d (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Source is not using the word "alleged". Also see Human rights violations in Balochistan, politician is no different. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:39, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Ahmer Mustikhan

Ahmer Mustikhan made a statement on India's role in Balochistan [5] and [6]. According to him, he was asked by his RAW handlers to create disturbance during Nawaz Sharif visit to USA. My edit is here [7]. Trying to understand what is reason for removing this. I am quoting sources. If I search Mustikhan [8] and his organization it seems active [9]. --Spasage (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Can you please explain to me how his opinions/statements meet WP:DUE here? Is he an expert/scholar on Insurgency in Balochistan or is his organization American Friends of Balochistan that notable in the article that it merits a response here? Both of these do not even meet WP:GNG on Wikipedia. Secondly, he claims that RAW paying him money to heckle Sharif but I fail to see how that is related to Insurgency in Balochistan? We include direct related content here not something which is tangentially related or POV motivated.

Second for other editor(s) who reverted this removal and claimed WP:DUE the onus is on you to explain how this WP:DUE after it was removed for being WP:UNDUE. Otherwise the revert is considered disruptive. The discussion page is here for a reason. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 23:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Ahmer Mustikhan is a well-known voice when it comes to topics/reporting related to Balochistan. His work has mostly focused on projecting the views of dissident forces of Balochistan which are in part responsible for Insurgency in Balochistan. He may not be famous for being a journalist but he is well-known as being a Baloch activist. Now, when a Baloch activist who has for long supported Baloch separatist groups through his writings, says that he has been acting at the behest of RAW (accused of sustaining, funding and supporting terrorism in Pakistan), then it is a significant development. Second, WP:GNG is required for assessing a topic's suitability for a stand-alone article or list, not for adding sourced, well-cited content. Still, American Friends of Balochistan gives over 62K hits, it doesnt having an article on WP does not make it any less credible to merit its exclusion as a "source".—TripWire^{________ʞlɐʇ} 08:31, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Ahmer or Ahmar Mustikhan is Baloch journalist and activist. He is writing in The Jerusalem Post[10], The Times of India[11], Dailyo [12], Epoch Times [13], Rediff [14], Business Standard [15], The Asian Age[16], Deccan Chronicle[17]. He has been quoted in many leading Indian news papers on Balochistan issue. He has many videos on Balochistan subject [18]. So, by no means, this person is unknown. His statement carries weight.--Spasage (talk) 14:02, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

First let's stick to the sources and before we start jumping to conclusions. The WP:RS which was provided clearly states this "he heckled former prime minister Nawaz Sharif during his 2015 visit to Washington at the behest of Indian intelligence agency Research and Analysis Wing (RAW)". It does not make mention of Insurgency in Balochistan. The only reason that this is being included here is because Ahmer Mustikhan is a journalist (not an expert, there is a big difference) who is a Baloch activist. Now if he is indeed well-known and his statement carries weight why does the heckling incident find no mention on this page or on Nawaz Sharif. In addition, why are Ahmer Mustikhan's other views which are still valid and unconnected with this particular incident but directly related to Insurgency in Balochistan like calling the Pakistan crackdown a genocide, extra judicial killings, 20,000 people killed over 10 years and his opposition to China–Pakistan Economic Corridor because of its effect on Balochistan not mentioned in this article. Why should we only cherrypick an event. His other views should also find mention in the article since he is a well-known voice and an "expert". ([19],[20],[21]) Adamgerber80 (talk) 17:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead.—TripWire^{________ʞlɐʇ} 08:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

So how we are moving forward?--Spasage (talk) 15:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Please read though my rebuttal and answer points I have raised. I am not yet convinced that this person's views/comments are WP:DUE here since we almost find no mention of their previous views anywhere else on Wikipedia. Second, I don't even think the comments they made are related to this page given it was about heckling Nawaz Sharif not about Insurgency in Balochistan. Please make a cogent argument. I am also happy to take this to a forum where it can be decided if this is indeed WP:DUE for this page. Adamgerber80 (talk) 18:33, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

So, if I go with you argument, that it is not relevant to add Ahmar Mustikhan heckling here. So, in your opinion, where his claim should go in wikipedia articles. Here are few facts, "He is a Baloch activist", "claims that RAW gave him money to heckle Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minster of Pakistan", "in past he also heckled other Pakistani leaders including Pervez Musharraf" and read following from [22]:

"Mr Mustikhan said that India was supporting terrorism in Pakistan and this support started after the Kargil war and that’s why the current insurgency had continued for 12 years.

Mr Mustikhan claimed that RAW encouraged militants to kill Punjabi, Pakhtun and even Sindhi civilians. “We have no fight with civilians. They are our brothers,” he said. “They gave me a lot of mental torture [for opposing their plans]. They say if you kill, you are a hero otherwise you are zero.” "

He is linking Baloch Insurgency with RAW. So, in your opinion, if these facts should not go in this article, which article they should go. --Spasage (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Spasage You are yet to answer my question on how does it merit to mention his comments. He almost has no mention so far across any of the pages related to what he has said over the years. Why is it now that he suddenly his comments become relevant? Remember that Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Many people claim multiple things on India and Pakistan. We can fill up multiple Wikipedia pages based on their claims and counter claims. So let's keep this to the point because this now seems to be focusing on one event about Ahmer Mustikhan since he seems to be supporting a certain WP:POV while his earlier views were never mentioned because they don't match a set narrative. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:05, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

There is no WP:POV or narrative. If you want, you can quote his other statements, as you research clearly shows that he has made many and rightly answered by Tripwire.--Spasage (talk) 13:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Again, my point in raising that was to convey that none of this information over time has made it to any of the pages. IMO, this is because Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. I don't see any argument on why should his arguments be included over many others (remember that a journalist is not the same as an expert). Just to drive home my point I will pick a specific edit of yours from recent times ([23]). This edit should clearly not be there per WP:NOTNEWS. I am happy to take this to a forum if you feel that this should be included (along with his other statements). Adamgerber80 (talk) 02:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

What my edit here has anything to do with this discussion. This issue was widely covered considering his association with recent court cases. If you have issues with my edits, go to here and discuss. I see this as clear case of diversion. --Spasage (talk) 17:29, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

What "none of this information over time has made it to any of the pages" are you talking about? This is a recent development, how do you expect it to be included into WP even before the info was covered in RS? You dont seem to know what you are talking about? I think as your argument hold no water, the content including the new info provided by Spasage regarding Mr Mustikhan linking Baloch Insurgency with RAW should be added here.—TripWire^{________ʞlɐʇ} 08:12, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I am referring to the several statements and incidents associated with Ahmer Mustikhan apart from the RAW statement. The Nawaz Sharif heckling incident happened in 2015, terming the crackdown on Balochistan militants as a genocide and the extra-judical killings statement happened in 2016, his opposition to CPEC happened in 2017. None of them find any reference on any of the associated pages. If he is indeed that notable how is this possible? Please read the entire stream of argument before replying here. Neither of you have presented a strong reason, IMO, to include all of this content and are cherry picking one statement. As I have said before, I have happy to take this to a Wikipedia forum to discuss if Ahmer Mustikhan is indeed an expert on Balochistan and should all of his comments and associated incidents be included on Wikipedia. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 15:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Raheel Sharif

Raheel Sharif is currently retired and Lt Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa has taken over his place. But in the template. It shows that the commander during the insurgency from 2013 to "present" which is not true. Please anyone remove the present and add Qamar Javed Bajwa from 2016 to present

Jadhav and Iran

Son of Kalochi, stop re-adding this again and again. Read WP:UNDUE, WP:PRIMARY and WP:NOTNEWS first and then explain here instead of edit warring. --DBigXrayᗙ 09:02, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

DBigXray, stop removing this again and again. Read WP:CENSOR. Moreover, The Express Tribune is a WP:SECONDARY source. Also read WP:NOTNEWS yourself before preaching it to others. It says, "routine news reporting of announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate...". This is not "routine news reporting" and it definitely is "information on recent developments". First explain here how these policies apply and then seek WP:CONSENSUS instead of edit warring. Son of Kolachi (talk) 10:02, 8 October 2018 (UTC) blocked WP:Sock --DBigXrayᗙ 08:24, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Removing WP:UNDUE is not CENSOR, if you have confusion about my edits then you should start a talk page discussion instead of edit warring as you are doing on the article right now. As for your claim to appropriateness how is The talk about cooperation between 2 agencies being misreported in the article Insurgency in Balochistan? how is this even relevant here. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTYELLOW states that not everything that is printed and published can automatically find its way into articles. --DBigXrayᗙ 10:42, 8 October 2018 (UTC) 

• Son of Kolachi, This is a news event and not important enough for inclusion. Consider pointing out your reasons for inclusion that how it is not undue. Also per WP:NOCON - "a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit" . Instead of mindless edit warring please get a consensus before making any further changes to this article. Razer(talk) 15:24, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

• I will have to agree with DbigXray here. This appears not to be relevant here, and if Son of Kolachi have a reason to think otherwise, then he must tell us why. Bharatiya29 12:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

1RR restriction

Due to recent edit-warring on this article, I have placed this page under WP:1RR restriction under authority of the discretionary sanctions authorized by the arbitration committee for pages related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. All editors are restricted to one revert per 24 hours on this article. Any further violations of this restriction may result in blocks, and incidents may be reported to the edit warring noticeboard or arbitration enforcement. Thank you. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Iran in the belligerents section

There is already another article titled "Sistan and Baluchestan insurgency". So can Iran be removed from the belligerents section and the remaining information about Iran moved to this article[[24]]?-Mountain157 (talk)