User talk:WMSR

Metro icons

I'm confused about your revert on {{LACMTA icon}}. I didn't modify the icons at all (or I didn't think I did). How can I fix the article titles without modifying the icons? Also, I believe it would be more civil to use the undo function for non-vandalism reverts. hbdragon88 (talk) 05:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Hbdragon88! Sorry for the confusion; I had to restore the old version because your changes were made over two edits. In no way did I mean to suggest that your edit was vandalism. The module calls the name of the line for the title of the image (they all follow the same format) so by changing it back to "Blue" instead of "A", for example, it called the image of the blue bullet instead of the one with an A. I don't quite have the technological know-how to change the module so that it calls the correct image but outputs text that differs from the title of the image, but since that module is also used for Template:rail-interchange, I think the icons are more important than the text for the time being.

A way around this would be to use Template:LACMTA icon for just the icons themselves, and use Template:lnl for line labels. That's what most other systems do (to the best of my knowledge). --WMSR (talk) 05:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

MNR icons

Hi, at {{Rail-interchange}} I saw you suggested some Metro-North icons? I think the icon images have been deleted, I can't view them? Can I help you restart this proposal and reach out to people to make this happen? Best, from a former Harlem line commuter, ɱ (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ɱ: Sorry for the (extremely) late reply. I was just toying around with MNR icons in the sandbox a really long time ago; they were basically just {{Rail color box}} labels, so if there's a need for an icon somewhere, I would recommend using that template instead of {{Rail-interchange}}. --WMSR (talk) 06:05, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

No problem, and alright, makes sense. ɱ (talk) 06:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/File:Flag of East Sister Independent States.svg

Hey there, I think you need to send this discussion to WP:FFD instead of WP:MFD. bibliomaniac15 21:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

No problem, I deleted it for you and removed it from MFD. Cheers, bibliomaniac15 21:56, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

InedibleHulk

You were late to the party, so I'm not responding in ANI. I don't really want to have a long discussion about it here, either, but I do want to remind you that he went to BetsyRMadison's talk page and insulted three editors. That's not a joke. That's not acceptable. Please don't enable their behavior by providing excuses. Goodbye. FollowTheSources (talk) 05:53, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@FollowTheSources: Thanks for the message! I see that I commented just as you closed the discussion, but I stand by my belief that you are both acting in good faith. In fact, the last time InedibleHulk was at ANI, it was because I dragged him there. He certainly has a dramatic way of expressing himself, and should probably be clearer about what he means to say, but he is engaging in friendly banter and really means you no harm. You can both remedy this situation by focusing on content, even if it seems as though the other isn't. --WMSR (talk) 06:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I will definitely focus on content, but if I see them insulting editors, I will focus on that, as well.

It is clear to me that they knew that "saboteurs" is an insult, not just a "dramatic way of expressing himself", and they had multiple opportunities to walk it back before I effectively forced their hand. So if this reoccurs, I will have not hesitate in requesting a block. This project is not well served by such personal attacks. FollowTheSources (talk) 06:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Stop calling me "them", I'm a guy. And yeah, WMSR "enabling" me is a hoot. Nobody ever disabled me harder! InedibleHulk (talk) 06:09, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@FollowTheSources: The teacher in me is coming out, so please bear with me. I understand that you feel insulted. That's perfectly valid and legitimate. Bear in mind that when you say something on the web, the reader doesn't also hear the tone of how you would've said it in person. This is true for both of you, and it's easy to see Hulk making a sarcastic comment and then interpreting your reaction as an attack, similar to how you interpreted his comment as an attack. There was never a need to "force his hand", and there was never a need to call you a saboteur. Both of you can be simultaneously right, wrong, and silly in this situation. Just keep some perspective. InedibleHulk, glad I could provide a hoot for ya. --WMSR (talk) 06:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, you wrecking me still isn't funny, W. Just no longer tragic. Funny choice of words from FTS (in an unintentional and good way), that's all. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: Sorry to salt a wound. I do hope you know that I harbor no ill will towards you, though I understand that those words may mean little coming from me. I never meant to bully you and am truly sorry if that's how I came off; you're a valuable contributor and I'm glad you stuck around. It's important to remember that we're all humans behind these computers and we all want the best for this project. --WMSR (talk) 06:52, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

No worries. You went your way, I went mine and when the dust settled, our names looked the same (at least in the end). But we both hopefully learned not everybody here is human, and those poor bots shouldn't be given even more guff on top of what they're already designed to handle. It's inhumane, always was, I was just too young and pigheaded to realize, thanks again! InedibleHulk (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

And no, you didn't come across as a bully. You came across as a well-organized bookish sort who, through some unknown twists of fate, came to release a horde of hounds with bees in their mouths, and when they barked, they shot bees at me. Bit like a wizard, but without a beard, maybe atop a pegasus. You know..."nerdy but cool". Forgive me if I presume a bit off, but there definitely were explicit metaphorical bees in my bonnet and britches, and I sure didn't invite them. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:34, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Ref! El_C 07:43, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

El_C, I'm not sure where you came from, but I wholeheartedly support this contribution to the discourse. --WMSR (talk) 07:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: You're not terribly far off. It is true that I don't have a beard. In fact, I can't even grow one! I tried in the early days of quarantine but have found it to be downright impossible. While I am decidedly nerdy, the "and cool" part is almost laughable. I also only have one dog; she's 14 and afraid of rain. Not thunder. Rain. I do feel your pain about the bees. I once accidentally stepped on a wasp nest while sandal-clad and the results were... exactly what one would expect. --WMSR (talk) 07:49, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

One of my dogs is like that, too. Scared of rain, I mean, terrified of thunder. Maybe coincidentally, maybe not, she's also the young lady with the shortest hairs on her chin. The other two are just afraid of the same natural phenomena their isolated beardo daddy is, namely tailypo, wendigo and blue LEDs. Nothing eerier than waking up to something glowing at the foot of the bed, if you ask me. I have a friendly colony of yellowjackets in my yard, not exactly snugglers or useful, but they surround me without issue lately, part of me thinks they remember what I didn't do last summer. I hope to wear a beard of them by the age of 70, unless "murder hornets" intervene. Or a six-week heatwave. Or forty days of rain. Or you know, whatever will bee. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:56, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - Hulk came to my talk page and not only personally attack me and my integrity, but Hulk also accused me of "conspiring" to "make-up" stories with bias against Tara Reade. And I'd like to know why you think it is ok for Hulk to do that to me, accuse me of those horrible things and the only admonishment you give to Hulk is a grin, a smile, and an attaboy.
Will I get a smile, a grin, and attaboy if I start talking in the "artful (?) manner" (your words) as Hulk and if I go to editor's personal talk pages and attack them and accuse them of conspiring to make-up stories?
If I go to other editors pages and attack their integrity using Hulk's "artful (?)" vocabulary, will it be written off as me just "making a sarcastic comment?" (your words). And how do you know Hulk was just "making a sarcastic comment?" Are you a mind-reader? Can you read Hulk's intent when he personally attacks people, their integrity, and accuses them of conspiring to make-up stories?
I'm just trying figure if WP:NPA and WP:CIVILITY rules apply to all editors - or - if they just apply to editors who are not as "artful (?) " and "sarcastic" as Hulk.
For the record, I find Hulk's assaults against me and my character malicious, intentional, and out-of-bounds. I find no humor and no sarcasm in Hulk's personal attacks. None. And I also am very disappointed that some editors have to follow WP:NPA rules, while others, who willingly and with malice go to other editor's pages and can personally attack them because of ... "artful (?)" and "sarcastic" language.
And since you're on this page apologizing to Hulk for something you did to Hulk, are you sure you're even the right person who should be making any call on Hulk breaching WP:NPA BetsyRMadison (talk) 02:41, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

"Conspiring" and "make-up" are your words, not mine. I said your highly-visible group's organized crime was "not a conspiracy". I also said you three "make up" (verb) stories about attacks from the relative middle, which two of you proved in immediate response. Not accusing any or all of you of "horrible things", asking if you're self-aware of your regular mundane politically-minded disruption. I won't ask again, but reiterate the attacks are in your head, not my words. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR and Schazjmd - within the last half-hour, Hulk has come to my talk page to continue with his harassment and personal attacks against me. here [1] here [2] here [3] here [4] here [5] here [6] Thanks for admonishing him with a grin, a smile, and an attaboy, it really worked wonders and was so helpful in encouraging Hulk to keep breaching WP:NPA and WP:CIVILITY and to continue his personal attacks against me & against my integrity on my talk page. Thanks! BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

You're talking shit about me in so many places, it's hard to know where to begin clarifying. Sometimes you're directly pinging me and questioning me. If you'd like me to shut up, simply and kindly shut up. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Hulk's comment (above) is disingenuous. The record will show that the last time I pinged Hulk was at timestamp 21:27, 18 May 2020 (UTC) when I insulted Hulk for personally attacking me. Lucky for me, at timestamp 00:31, 19 May 2020 (UTC) Schazjmd advised me to "comment on the content, not the editor." Which is what I have been doing ever since. I have not been pinging Hulk and not asking Hulk questions. Hulk's comment is simply not truthful. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

It finally clicked what you (probably?) meant. To be clear, those are abbreviated "were"s, not "are" s. I agree you stopped two hundred minutes before I replied. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

What's going on here, @InedibleHulk:? Did I go too easy on you in the ANI? I thought you agreed to drop the personal attacks, and yet here you are.

Even if you feel like you're being baited, you retain the option to just walk away. I suggest that you use it. FollowTheSources (talk) 05:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I suggest your threats are softer than a Care Bear's toilet paper, and smell almost as good, thanks for sharing! Anyway, I have no reason to lie about what I do here. The backstage 'atta boy archived at User talk:Levivich/Archive 3 is the only one I recall giving or receiving, and it makes this crap look like the dust left on a Care Bear's Q-tip. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:19, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

This conversation cannot continue on my talk page if it will be used to bash other editors. My talk page is for bashing me only! I am glad to continue to talk this out, but only if we can do so without making accusations. Use I-messages. Be kind. --WMSR (talk) 11:17, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - Is your (11:17, 19 May 2020 (UTC)) comment in response to my first message to you here, [7] or to my second message to you here, [8]? ~ BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:47, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

That second message used to be mine, but you can have it. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I am bothered by the insults from InedibleHulk, and more so by the fact that they seem incorrigible. How about you? FollowTheSources (talk) 13:34, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I guess we're doing this. @FollowTheSources: Which statements from Hulk do you find to be insults? Why? The statement about incorrigibility is not going to help here, by the way; if I'm going to be a mediator, I'm not going to take sides. --WMSR (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, the incorrigibility conclusion comes from the fact that they were taken to ANI, redacted their insults, but did not appear to have learned anything from this process. To wit, here are some examples of things they said that are sarcastic, biting, and hostile. They are definitely not civil, although whether they rise to the level of personal attack varies with the example. All of these are from above:

"your highly-visible group's organized crime"

"you three "make up" (verb) stories about attacks from the relative middle"

"your regular mundane politically-minded disruption"

"your threats are softer than a Care Bear's toilet paper, and smell almost as good"

I realize that tone of voice is lost in the medium, so it would be too easy to assume the worst, but I struggle to find interpretations of these phrases that do not reek of incivility. FollowTheSources (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Which of those examples is the most personal and least personal, by your eye? They all seem like assessments of content and tactics to me. "Negative", sure, but the stuff in question is what it is, regardless of who made it that way. I'll stop using a word you dislike around you if you'll stop calling me "they". Sound fair? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't know about your background, but where I come from, calling someone an "organized criminal" is not something you do casually. FollowTheSources (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

FollowTheSources, I understand that you feel that way, but if this is going to work, you can't present your feelings as fact. It's okay to have feelings, and it's okay to have them hurt over the internet. We are all humans. Instead of calling Hulk's statements "sarcastic, biting, and hostile", explain to Hulk the way you feel as a result. InedibleHulk, I would appreciate if you would tone down the sarcasm temporarily so that we can make some progress. Even though it's how you are used to communicating, you both are on my talk page to work this out without sanctions (as I am not an admin and cannot issue any). I can't imagine either of you want to increase the bad blood here, but you'll have to cooperate here if there is to be any hope of cooperating as editors on articles. Can we agree to the ground rules of using I-messages and speaking sincerely before we continue? --WMSR (talk) 18:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - Are you going to address any of the concerns that I asked you about (above)? As it is right now, I have documented Hulk using my personal talk page to personally attack me WP:HUSH, WP:PA, WP:CIVILITY, and harass me WP:HARASS, and hound me WP:HOUND to attack me on other editor's talk pages. I see you keep addressing FTS's concerns but not mine. If you can let me know, that'd be great. Thanks BetsyRMadison (talk) 19:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Just so everyone is aware, it appears that FollowTheSources was indef blocked. BetsyRMadison, I am glad to work with you and Hulk provided you agree to the ground rules I laid out above. Once again, I am not an admin, so all I can do is help you both talk it out, but I am happy to do that. --WMSR (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you WMSR. I appreciate all your help. Here goes: I find it very disruptive when Hulk went/goes to my personal talk to page to personally attack me, my integrity, and to falsely accuse me of crimes and other nonsense. I do not find the language used when attacking me is "artful" or "sarcastic" or "humorous." I find the language used to attack me is vitriolic, mean-spirited, and done with malicious intent. I feel the WP:HOUND hounding and language used to attack me is designed to intentionally harm my reputation, discredit me, with a goal of silencing me. I feel the decision go to my talk page to personally attack me & accuse me of crimes and other nonsense was done intentionally so as to give an illusion to other editor's that I am somehow untrustworthy and undeserving. I would like to have every single comment that Hulk said to me, or about me, on my talk page and other talk pages completely deleted and never restored. I would also like for Hulk to never go to my talk page ever again. If you need documentation, I can send you "diffs." Thanks again for your help, I very much appreciate it BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

BetsyRMadison, thanks for that. Again, I am in no position to make anyone do anything. It would be helpful to know which comments specifically you are referring to. And it will help if you could try not to characterize Hulk's actions; tell us what he said and how it made you feel. Also, just so you know, you are free to remove comments from your talk page either by deleting them or replacing them with the {{rpa}} template. Note that doing this does not delete anything permanently (folks can still see previous versions of the page in history). --WMSR (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - Above, at timestamp 20:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC), I explain how I feel about Hulk's actions against me from Hulk's individual comments and also by adding all Hulk's comments together. I am attaching (below) all of Hulk's comments ("diffs") that I refer to in my above comments.

User Space Harassment WP:HUSH, WP:PA, WP:HARASS, WP:CIVILITY - Without being pinged & without being invited Hulk went to my personal talk page and posts personally attacks against me and my integrity to intentionally attempt to harm my reputation, discredit me, and silence me.   

Diffs
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
May 18 (all times in UTC) 3:43 [9]  3:47 [10] 3:52 [11] 3:53 [12] 4:01 [13] 4:03 [14] 5.41 [15] May 19 After I told Hulk to stop using my talk page to  attack me (my 1st of two comments to Hulk) - Hulk kept using my talk page to attack me 3:51 [16] 3:53 [17] After I insulted Hulk for using my personal talk page to attack me (My 2nd, of two, comments to Hulk) - Hulk kept using my talk page to attack me 3:59 [18] 4:00 [19] 4:03 [20] 4:15 [21] 4:23 [22] May 19, 2020: I was being hounded WP:HOUNDING by Hulk, who personally attacked me on a different Editor A's talk page after I posted a comment on Editor A's page. (Hulk had not been pinged in any way, shape, or form.) 4:57 [23] I was hounded by Hulk who personally attacked on a different Editor "B's" talk page after I posted a comment on Editor B's page. (again, Hulk had not been pinged in any way, shape, or form) 5:14 [24] 8:17 [25] 8:20 [26] 17:02 [27]

Please reread my above comment at timestamp 20:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC) to refresh your memory on how I felt as a result of Hulk's actions and how I feel this will best be resolved. Thanks again for everything! BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: This discussion is not about policy. You don't need to convince me of anything because I cannot take any action one way or another. A collection of diffs is not what I'm looking for. You also don't have to call me "Editor B"; I know who I am. I'm asking what specifically he said that upset you, and why. His calling into question whether you have a neutral point of view, for example, is not an insult. Unless you both take this seriously, there's not a whole lot I can do, but I can tell you that from the diffs you posted, no admin in their right mind would sanction Hulk without also sanctioning you. --WMSR (talk) 02:13, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - I sent the diffs because I felt it would be easier for you to see the malicious unfounded attacks against me. I have no interest in copy/pasting the lies that were said about me, it's bad enough they exist on my page. Two things about sanctions: 1) my objective is to have Hulk delete his ridiculous accusations against me willingly; and if Hulk won't do that, then I guess I'd have to have someone compel Hulk to, and 2) You say I'd be sanctioned, why do you think I'd be sanctioned. What policy did I breach. BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll neither do it nor feel any compulsion to, but you're more than welcome to scrub me from your Talk Page. If you touch anything elsewhere, though, I will feel compelled to teach you what WMSR taught me about community justice. If you have one or two specific alterations in mind for those, just ask, I'm open to sane compromises. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:36, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I intended to harm, discredit and silence what I viewed as a campaign to bury Reade and push Biden, not a person. I feel FTS made it more personal by assuming I addressed BRM in particular. I mean "crime" as a violation of Wikipedia policy, not real-world law. I believe BRM was genuinely insulted, to a degree, and am sorry for that. I also believe she is feigning a large deal of injury to strengthen her complaint against me, so that I might be conveniently blocked. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

To InedibleHulk -- Sometimes, often times, people accuse others of things they themselves are guilty of. Perhaps you should look in the mirror and examine your own objectives and possible biases before going around half-loaded and personally attacking others and accusing them of things that you, yourself, may be guilty of doing. I am 100% certain that you cannot point to one single thing I have ever written to support your unfounded, vitriolic attacks against me. 

As for "campaign" -- The only campaign I have, or ever have had, on here is to report all the facts and truth supported by reliable source for the WP reader, no matter what those facts are or how chilling those facts may be to any party involved. It makes no difference to me if the facts from reliable sources are chilling to Biden, or to Reade, or to anyone else. I have no dog in the fight and I could not care any less who the facts are chilling to. The WP reader deserves all the facts. Period. 

As for your new accusation alleging I want you "blocked" 1) My goal isn't to block anyone. I stated my goal above at timestamp: 20:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC): I want you to stop hounding me, stop harassing me, stop personally attacking me, stop using my personal talk page to attack me, delete every single comment that you've said to me, or about me, on my talk page and other editor's talk pages.  2) As long as you are not personally attacking me, I don't give one damn what you post on this website, your words are a reflection of you and who you are.

Ask yourself this Hulk: if I was attempting a "block" why would I be on a non-admins page simply requesting that you stop doing the things I wrote above?  Your perceived opinion me is very flawed and is unfounded in reality, but here again, I don't give one damn what your opinion of me is. I just want you to stop personally attacking me, hounding me, and harassing me. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

If you point me to one or two instances of something you think is fueled by vitriol, I'm 95% sure I can point to one or two reasons it's fair critique, not savage attack. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

BetsyRMadison, you are again making accusations instead of I-messages. I really can't help if you won't follow the rules I laid out. I understand if you think it's unfair, but I'm not here to make a summary judgement. You admitted to insulting Hulk as well, and I'm not here to identify who's at fault for anything, I just want to work this out. --WMSR (talk) 19:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

To WMSR - Thank you again for all your help & efforts. I feel it's important to state things clearly & not to be accidentally misquoted. I said "I insulted Hulk for using my personal talk page to attack me ... Hulk kept using my talk page to attack me." I already explained how I feel about Hulk's actions against me at timestamp 20:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC) and I explained that it is all of Hulk's comments (in the diffs & Hulk's comments to me below the diffs on this page) are an attack against me. There is only one way to resolve this, only one, and that is for Hulk to stop harassing me, stop hounding me, delete every comment Hulk said about me on editor's talk pages, and stop using my personal talk page to attack me. If Hulk wants to discuss content of any WP article with me, then Hulk can do so on the article's Talk Page. If Hulk chooses to keep breaching WP:PA, WP:HUSH, WP:CIVILITY, WP:HOUNDING, WP:HARASS against me, even if it is just one more time, anywhere at all; then I will be forced to take Hulk's actions to the next level & see what happens there. Again, I thank you for all your help. BetsyRMadison (talk) 22:58, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

BetsyRMadison, if you are just going to issue ultimatums, there is no reason for me to be involved. Two wrongs don't make a right; it was just as wrong for you to insult Hulk as was for him to insult you. Wikipedia is not a battleground, and if you continue to approach it as such, you will only run into more problems. I asked you both to agree to two ground rules; Hulk has abided by them and you have not. Please use I-messages to communicate. Something along the lines of "I am angry at everything he said (see diffs)" is not helpful. Repeating the same points will only take this conversation in circles. --WMSR (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I also feel this is getting ridiculous and going nowhere. I'm not going to delete anything that you claim is hounding, hushing, harassment, incivil or personally insulting unless you indicate how something specific breaches what you say it does. If you want to kick this up a level, knock yourself out, but this will likely backfire. I don't even say that as wishful thinking, just an honest appraisal based on the sheer number of times you've literally called me some form of stupid, lying, malicious, incompetent, childlike, angry and elsewise a bad person, including while repeatedly pinging me after I politely let you know I can already see what you're saying and do not need alarm bells on top of your bogus accusations, refusal to negotiate, POV forum-hopping, unattractive text formatting and general single-purpose disruption. I also stand by the length of the preceding run-on sentence, and will die on that hill, if required. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Weird revert

Care to elaborate why revert on territorial disputes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.47.43.16 (talk) 21:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@202.47.43.16: You wrote that India has been taken over by fascists. That is patently false and constitutes vandalism. --WMSR (talk) 21:10, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

No it does not unless you are Indian. Do not throw fancy words at me. Patently? The addition is in the same nature as the prior statement. If I remove that, another one of you kind will hop in and say removing stuff is vandalism.