Talk:The Monk (Doctor Who)

Perhaps I should explain why the Monk's appearance in the thirtieth anniversary special is particularly noteworthy, but it's a spoiler and in any case I don't suppose anybody here cares much. So I probably won't. --Paul A 03:20, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia contains spoilers, so please do go right ahead and mention it. I wasn't aware the Monk made any appearances after his originals, so I for one am quite curious about it. Just make sure to put this line:

{{msg:spoiler}}

before the paragraph where you do, to give readers the option of not reading it. Bryan 04:59, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Moving page

I moved the page since the Monk's the only one of the titled Time Lords without a "The" prefixing his title as the article name. It's also easier to just add the "the" instead of removing it from everyone else. --khaosworks 08:02, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

The Master

Wasn't the theory about the Monk being the Master first made popular in a manual for a DW RPG in the 80s? Does anyone know anything about this? — P Ingerson (talk) 21:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like the nonsense that the FASA RPG was spouting (like the origins of the Sontarans), but I don't have any reference materials on hand. Let me do a little Googling and see what I can come up with. --khaosworks 21:59, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Not even close. It was stated by Dicks and co. years before.

Facts from tv show: The Doctor and the "Monk" are both renegade Time Lords who stole TARDISes.

The "Monk" was NOT "stranded" anywhere. He could travel his stolen TARDIS, he just couldn't control where/when he was going.

The "Monk" was never an actual monk. It was a disguise.

The "Monk" instantly recognises the Doctor.

Facts from other media:

The novelisation of Time Meddler explitly states that the Doctor and the "Monk" knew each other before this story.

The novelisation of The War Games explicitly states that the Doctor and the "War Chief" knew each other before that story, and that they are the only two renegade Time Lords.

The novelisation of Terror of the Autons states that the Doctor and the Master knew each other before that story, that "Master" is a new name for that Time Lord, that the Master had both 'meddled' before, as well as having organised war games...and that the Doctor and the Master are the only two renegade Time Lords. Also, the Doctor is surprised that the Master has a properly functioning TARDIS.

Thenovelisation of The Doomsday Weapon explicitly states that only two TARDISes have ever been stolen, one by the Doctor, and one by the Master, that the Doctor's TARDIS is inferior, that the Master had organised the events of The War Games, and that the Doctor and the Master are the only two renegade Time Lords.

The novelisation of The Sea Devils explicitly states that the Doctor and the Master are the only two renegade Time Lords.

The novelisation of The Three Doctors explicitly states that, prior to facing Omega, the Doctor had only ever faced one other Time Lord...the Master.

Ever wonder why there was never a "Monk sequel" or "War Chief sequel" or "Master origin story"?

And remember, the Delgado UNIT years Master, then the burned Pratt/Beevers Master, then the Master stealing the bodies of Tremas (Ainley) and Bruce (Roberts) were all the same incarnation. And, of course, people like Jacobi and Simm give thier OWN interpretations of the character, playing different incarnations.

The "nonsense" is what Virgin Books and Big Finish Audios served up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 10:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your original research. Please publish it in a book or magazine article so that we can cite it. DonQuixote (talk) 12:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not "original research". It's a fact, jack. Btw, do you live on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 12:05, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

See WP:SYNTH. DonQuixote (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Look, here's the bottom line, unless a reliable source says something explicitly, the only thing wikipedia can do is leave it open to interpretation. It's not wikipedia's job to fill in the blanks and connect the dots. It's not wikipedia's job to state which licensed media is better and which is nonsense. You whining about your favourite version vs your least favourite version won't get any results. The name of the game is citing reliable sources. DonQuixote (talk) 12:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

And now you're making personal attacks. "Whining"? No, stating a simple fact. And as for WP:RS, you mean like the FASA Module which explicitly states that the "meddling monk" was an alias the Master once used? So, by dismissing that, and creating an entire article called "The Monk (Doctor Who), YOU are the one pushing your agenda of YOUR favourite version. How is that NPOV? It's not. You are the one stating "which licensed media is better, and which is nonsense".

Because, there is are at least two RS from the time stating that FACT. Written by the people closest to the source, not some fanboy website several decades after the event. The FASA Game, and the "background" section for board game Doctor Who: The Game of Time % Space. Add to that, the OBVIOUS interpretation, which is clearly NOT OR drawn from the Target novels, and only someone deliberately pushing their WP:POV would make comments such as yours.

This article takes it as plain fact that there is a character in Doctor Who who actually uses the name "The Monk" in the same way as the Doctor is "The Doctor". It then contains a rambling, largely unsourced mess, which reads like the worst kind of fan fiction. And, buried in there somewhere, under "Other appearances", it mentions 'ONEsource to the contrary. But someone just glancing at the article would never see that, and would likely give up reading it before that, due to the fact that it's very poorly written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The FASA game is not a secondary source, it's a primary source and can only be used to describe its contents. Primary sources include novels, games, short stories, films, television dramas, etc. Secondary sources are nonfiction works which include books about films, magazine articles about people, documentaries about events, etc. The FASA game, the board game, the Virgin Books, and the Big Finish Audios are all primary sources and treated as such in the respective articles with equal weight. Sorry that we don't favour one or the other.

I apologise for biting your head. Your inabilility or unwillingness to understand concepts such as primary source, secondary source, tertiary source, writing about fiction, citing and summarising reliable sources, due weight, etc. is getting rather tiresome.

Please read about primary, secondary & tertiary sources, writing about fiction, citing and summarising reliable sources, and due weight. Unless you start citing reliable secondary sources (ie, works of nonfiction about the television programme, the novelisations, the comics, etc.), your claims will be read as just your interpretations of the primary sources. DonQuixote (talk) 23:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Phrased like that, you clearly don't understand. They are not treated with "equal weight". That's actually the whole point.

And the background information in the FASA Game and the Board Game are about it, not within it. Playing the physical game is being "within" it. Your inabilility inability to comprehend that is the problem.

True, the Target novels are primary sources, but right now they very clearly are treated as less compared to the Virgin Books or Big Finish Audios. Even you would have to agree with that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 05:22, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

They are all listed and summarised in Other media...that's equal weight. No one item in Other media is placed over another in preference. From the article:

In the Doctor Who role-playing game published by FASA in 1985, the Monk features as an earlier incarnation of the Master,[4] who is depicted as being his sixth incarnation which he personally chose after a failed rebellion on Gallifrey forced him to flee.[5] After the events of The Time Meddler, the game suggests that the Monk was able to replace the missing dimensional components, but a minor miscalculation sent him, and his TARDIS to a planet in the 'crack' between realities, a planet which he later named 'Merast' and used as a base of operations. It also cost him a full regeneration, however he was able to keep his current appearance.[6] After the Monk's second encounter with the First Doctor on the planet Tigus, he regenerated into a 'strikingly handsome, middle-aged man'.[5]

The Monk also appears in the New Adventures novel No Future by Paul Cornell, in which he is given the name "Mortimus". The novel was the last of a story arc published to coincide with the series' 30th anniversary in 1993, in which the Seventh Doctor encounters various alternate realities that have been created due to the Monk's meddling with time, including a reality where the Third Doctor was killed in his confrontation with the Silurians (Blood Heat), attempting to distract the Doctor while he helps the Vardans to invade Earth, thus getting their mutual revenge on the Doctor for their losses during their past confrontations with him. Although the Monk seemingly traps the Doctor on the same ice planet he was himself exiled to, thanks to the betrayal of the Doctor's companion Ace, it is revealed at the conclusion of the novel that Ace was simply pretending to side with the Monk to defeat him, the novel ending with the Monk being apparently captured by a Chronovore that he had imprisoned to help him alter time. The Monk, once again as "Mortimus", makes an appearance in the Past Doctor Adventures novel Divided Loyalties; as part of a flashback to the First Doctor's days at the Academy, Mortimus is seen as part of a group of students, taught by Borusa among others, known as the Deca, a group of activists campaigning for more intervention, alongside the Doctor, Ushas (the Rani), Koschei (the Master), Magnus (the War Chief), Drax, a spy named Vansell, Millennia, Rallon and Jelpax. He aids the Deca in learning about the Celestial Toymaker, several members of which then undertake a disastrous trip to his realm.[7] The Monk later makes a cameo appearance, as "Mortimus", in The Quantum Archangel, working alongside the Rani, Drax and The Master in an artificially created parallel universe.[8]

Etc. Can't get more equal than listing and summarising them. Sorry that we're not upvoting your favourites more than they deserve.

And yes, they're about the games. Any liner notes, instructions, etc. about the games are only about the games. Games are not secondary sources in any way. They are not works of nonfiction. That's the point.

As to your final point, there's an entire list of Doctor Who novelisations, and they're listed and mentioned, where appropriate, without synthesis or original research. Sorry that we don't join two or more works together or with other primary sources, but that requires the citation of a nonfiction work (secondary source) such as a book, a magazine article, a documentary, etc. DonQuixote (talk) 06:03, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Wow. Just Wow. How is that "equal weight"? You can NOT honestly believe that to be the case, can you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

They're listed and they're summarised. That's it actually. DonQuixote (talk) 14:14, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Page move?

The discussion really should be here instead of at Page moves. That being said, the reason for the definitive article in front of Meddling Monk is a combination of historical useage and inertia. It can be argued that this is his full title, not merely "Meddling Monk", but at the same time, there's the consistency issue, as we have entries of "Valeyard", not "The Valeyard" and "Rani (Doctor Who)", not "The Rani" and more especially "The Doctor (Doctor Who)", so it's starting to look like a bit of a hodge podge. There's also "The Inquisitor" and "The Other (Doctor Who)". I'm still considering what's the better way to go about this, but this will have a knock-on effect on the titles of those articles as well. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:37, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that definitive articles are not to be placed at the beginning of character article (or any article, for that matter), unless it's abundantly clear that it is part of their name. I.e. a sentence referring to them would be "Hello, The Cheat." If characters like Joker (comics) or Universities can't have "the" in the titles, I'm not all that sympathetic to Meddling Monk and the other articles losing "the" from their titles. They shouldn't recieve different treatment just because they all happen to be from Doctor Who. Apostrophe 15:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Do you believe in it strongly enough to fix all the redirects? The Doctor (Doctor Who) has about 500. Tim! (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I only see two. Not all that hard of a task. Apostrophe 20:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

goto the article and click on "what links here", you'll see all the articles which link to it as its current name. All of them would have to change. Also check Master (Doctor Who) which you've already moved, not nearly as many, but you can see what has happened. Tim! (talk) 20:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted the page move until final disposition of this discussion - it's going to be a massive project to fix the redirects, so I think we should all be appraised of the consequences and be prepared to accept it before we proceed with any moves. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:40, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing the problem. If people click on a link that's a redirect, it'd direct them to the article that the redirect page is a redirect to. If people click on Aeris, they'd still be sent to Aerith Gainsbourg. The only problem is double redirects, of which there would only be two for Doctor (Doctor Who). Or this a Wikipedia style thing? --Apostrophe 04:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I also don't see the problem with the redirects, I move pages like this every once in a while and rarely have to fix more than a handful. The only time large numbers of articles need relinking is when pages split into several articles for disambiguation-related reasons. Relinking articles to bypass redirects is a cosmetic thing that I only bother to do when I'm already editing a page for other reasons. Bryan 04:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Ultimately, after consideration, my position is that I don't mind either way - just that it be consistent. That is, if we move remove the "The", then it should be the same for all, i.e. The War Chief, the Master, etc. We'll just have to fix the redirects as we find them. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

So, if there's no objection, I'll start moving some that I can, then. --Apostrophe 21:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Do try to get a head start on fixing some of the redirects as you can too, while you're at it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:26, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 13:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Saxon

There has been speculation that Mr. Harold Saxon in the upcoming finale to the latest series of Doctor Who is the Monk. The Monk; the first enemy time lord the Doctor met in the original series, wanted King Harold the Saxon to win the Battle of Hastings and rewrite history so that the Saxons were victorious. It could be this "Saxon" is the name sake of that attempt, and the first enemy time lord the Doctor meets in the new series as well. 207.202.227.125 01:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

good point, although, if he is the monk then surely he would be preaching instead ofrunning the country??? --click here 14:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's being confrimed that the Master will be in the series finale, so the chances of seeing two Time Lord enemies of the Doctor seems slim, but you never know. Michael Mad 15:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Character name

What evidence is there, really, that this character's name is "The Meddling Monk"? Surely, the monk was just a disguise for the purposes of the specific story, and that his continued use of the disguise, as seen in DMP, was because the Doctor had stranded him in an era where the disguise was still relevant. Should the reference to him as "The Time Meddler" by the DWM story, "4-Dimensional Vistas", not be given greater credence as an attempt to take the name of the character from the title of the serial in which he appeared, rather than the deceptive narrative? He wasn't a monk when he was stealing all that other loot we see in his TARDIS in "The Time Meddler". He took other disguises appropriate to the various eras to aid his plunder.

Somehow, I think the article needs to go a bit further in explaining why DWM made the choice they did. I think it wouldn't be too far to suggest that "The Time Meddler" be given consideration in the first sentence of the article as an alternative name for the character, and then to explain later in the article why there's ambiguity about the name. Calling the character, "The Meddlng Monk"—no matter how well-entrenched that now is in fan circles—is a bit like saying the name of the Master is "Mr. Magister", or any one of the dozens of other disguises the Master had. Somehow, over the years, "the meddling Monk" has turned into "The Meddling Monk", and it's not really accurate. CzechOut 00:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Marooned?

On my viewing of "Escape Switch", the Monk was not marooned on the desolate planet, it was merely somewhere he'd landed before realising that his directional circuit had been removed. The Monk then complains (and I paraphrase) that now he is doomed to wander the universe like the Doctor. But that he will get his own back, one day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.68.223 (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

100% correct. Yet, 'Mortimus' from No Future was marooned on an ice planet. In addition, 'Mortimus' in No Future never knew the Doctor from the Academy days. 'Mortimus' from 'No Future' was also apparently an actual monk, unlike Peter Butterworth's character from The Time Meddler, who merely disguised himself as a monk. Clearly 'Mortimus' from No Future has nothing at all to do with the Time Lord played by Peter Butterworth.

LOTS of citations required

This article contains a LOT of wild claims, fanboy speculation, and bizarre OR conclusions. What is lacks are real valid sources which back up ANY of the statements presented as fact. I have tagged many of these. These have previously been removed, but since nobody has made any effort to provide WP:RS, I have put them back in. The way the article reads now is most definitely not up to Wikipedia standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 11:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:TAGBOMB. The top of the article has {{refimprove}} and {{Original research}}: these should be sufficient - you may raise specific points on this talk page. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

But it isn't "specific points". Going line-by-line, MOST of the article is unsourced and OR. Even the article's name itself is OR! This discussion would inevitable focus on one or two points(assuming any sort of discussion even takes place). Until the,m each and every point must be marked, for someone to either improve, source, or remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 05:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Point-by-point

1)The Meddling Monk or simply The Monk.... Says who? The episode crdits list the character as "The Monk". "The Meddling Monk" is the name of an episode, not a character.

2)The character appeared in two stories... However, an interview with Terrance Dicks(which I'm trying to find the link to) establishes that the character of The War Chief was supposed to be implied to the the regenerated character from The Time Meddler. Further, Doctor Who Magazine Issue 75(April 1983) previews the then-forthcoming The Kings' Demons with references to The Time Meddler. Of course the villain in The King's Demons turned out to be The Master. Two years later the FASA Role Playing Game stated that "The Monk" and "The War Chief" were prior incarnations of The Master. And a 1988 edition of Mastermind had a contestant with the specialist subject of Doctor Who being asked "In which serial did The Mad Monk(not 'meddling') first use the name The 'Master' "?

3)[The Monk] claimed to have left the Doctor's then unnamed home planet some 50 years after the Doctor did... he did no such thing. The Doctor remarks to Vicki and Steven that they're from the same place but I would say that I am fifty years earlier(Doctor's words). The character who the article is about NEVER mentions ANY time or age or anything, besides his stating I'm getting too old for this at one point.

4)...when the Doctor first encountered him... The first encounter in the television show. It could be reworded that way. It is made abundantly clear both in the show and in other media that this is not their first encounter.

5)...hence the name by which he became known... which one? The credits refer to him as "The Monk", Doctor Who Magazine refers to him as "The Time Meddler", Mastermind refers to him as "The Mad Monk", Dicks refers to him as "The War Chief", The FASA Game states that he is "The Master", while he simply disguised himself as "a monk". Meanwhile, Wikipedia has an article called "The Meddling Monk".

6)The two never met on-screen again....I need to find the link to the Dicks interview, and then there's the FASA Game and the Mastermind episode(it was 1988 but I'll try and find the exact date. Of note it was BEFORE any unauthorized or unofficial guides which are used by some as a Reliable Source).

7)...the Monk last being seen... (see above, and note the "Meddling" part has been dropped by whoever wrote this article)

8)Unlike the Doctor's adversaries....such as The Master... see FASA, Mastermind etc.

9)The Monk was presented as a comic figure... Because he planned to wipe out the entire Viking fleet with a nuclear warhead?

10)...who was not half as clever as he thought he was...The Doctor reduced the "Monk's" TARDIS interior to the size of a small doll's house, yet he repaired the circuit(using only 11the Century technology) and tracked the Doctor down. Later, the Doctor disabled his chameleon circuit, yet he repaired that almost immediately, something the Doctor was NEVER able to do.

11)...never seemed to realise the seriousness of what he was doing...s with ALL these points there are NO WP:RS and it is all WP:OR. My comments are also largely WP:OR (for now), but it is worth pointing out this section is supposed to show the difference between "The Meddling Monk"(or whatever he's called at this point) and The Master. In terms of not realising the seriousness of doing something...watch The Master in Logopolis.

12)...disguising how dangerous a person like The Monk(I think "Meddling" has been abandoned by now) can really be...well pure WP:OR really

13)...propagated mainly... Says who? Pure [[WP:OR}] and WP:POV. LONG before the FASA game existed it was widely held as fact. Of course my saying that is no more a WP:RS than what is stated in the article, but it is certainly no LESS a WP:RS than what is stated in the article.

14)...this theory has not been as widespread in recent years...Says who? A quick search of Google dispels that idea. Also the fact that it's referred to as a theory would make it on sound footing.

15)...that The Doctor and The Monk had not met previously...The Monk immediately recognises The Doctor, The Doctor states And what are you trying to get up to this time? Best of all, the same people who stated that they'd "not met previously"(first published in The Discontinuity Guide would later point to Divided Loyalties as "proof" that "Mortimus The Time Meddling Mad Monk" and "Doktor Magnus Felix Kriegslieter The War Chief" aren't the same person.

If this can all be boiled down to simple problems...it is the COMPLETE LACK OF WP:RS. It is the fact that the article is a bunch of stitched-together myths that have been swirling amongst people who clearly haven't even watched the episodes properly. People reading something in a fanzine, or putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, and then writing a whole article using these "facts"! There are no RS, and it's all WP:OR, and a pretty poor job of OR as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 07:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

In response to point 1, he actually was credited as "The Meddling Monk" in The Daleks' Master Plan. 2.30.74.242 (talk) 08:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

What is the proper procedure for contesting citations?

Someone has added 2 citation, both of which are links to other Wikipedia articles. Namely the "claimed to have left Gallifrey 50 years after the Doctor" and the "last seen on a desolate icy planet". Since when it is considered WP:RS to link to another Wikipedia article, which also doesn't have the WP:RS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 17:06, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The serials proper (primary source) were cited (summarising the plot). The links to Wikipedia articles are helpful links included in the cite serial template. DonQuixote (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

But surely that is WP:OR? Those articles don't have the WP:RS either. Thus you are using one unsourced Wikipedia article as the source for another unsourced Wikipedia article. You would need the plot summary of a reliable published book, not another Wikipedia article that is similarly lacking anything to back up much of its content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

As was pointed out above, it was the Doctor who hypothesised that the Monk left Gallifrey 50 years after the Doctor did. That's a plot summary. That just requires the primary source. All the other stuff which are OR still have their citation needed tags. DonQuixote (talk) 17:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No WP:RS for several claims

The "Other appearances" section is just people giving their own interpretation of stories, some of which were inaccurate, and nearly all of which were completely unsourced. Of course, the only one with any source was the FASA Game. Also, having 'Mortimus' appear somewhere is unrelated here. Unless it states it is the same character as this article, it's WP:OR. The whole Divided Loyalties thing, the claims of what unpublished chapters would have said and what was hinted at in other books, the POV nonsense, and all unsourced. As such, a lot(though far from all) of it has been removed. If anyone wants to reinstate any of that, it will need to be properly WP:V. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 12:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The additional information I included is NOT based on interpretation, and it should be included. It is part of the introduction as information for the gameplayers and the gamesmaster, it casts doubt on the legitimacy of any information in the book and has to be included if the source is to be considered valid for inclusion. If the edit war continues, any information from the FASA game should be deleted, as I supplied the information and have access to the source material. 82.26.182.43 (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Use template:cite book. DonQuixote (talk) 14:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The citation exists already, the only thing he forgot to delete 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

1)What does it say in the book? Exactly? Please quote it here. Just so we can be sure it's not OR.

2)DonQuixote is fixated with Divided Loyalties. Yet it never mentions anything about a character called 'The Monk' least of all one who has a biography that is anything listed in this article. And it's totally unsourced either way.

3)That's the big thing, sources. This whole article reads like some small child's bizarre interpretation of something they've heard third- or fourth- hand. The one thing it sorely lacks is any sort of RS. ANd most of the so-called RS here, are sources where what is claimed to be verified is not actually listed in the source that is cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 15:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Er...what? I'm sorry, but that's just another one of your strawmen. I couldn't care less about Divided Loyalties...in fact, I have never read it. What I do care about is proper citation of reliable sources.

And yes, this article needs a major rewrite. Feel free to do so. And to make sure that this article is well written, please be sure to cite all your sources and make sure that they're considered reliable. DonQuixote (talk) 15:18, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Page 4/Introduction

CIA FILE EXTRACTS- A short module of the player's information is included in this supplement. Taking the form of a CIA briefing on the Master, the CIA file extracts book is neither complete nor totally accurate. It sometimes reflects the opinions, conjectures, and outright fabrications injected by its Time Lord authors, rather than the absolute truth needed by the gamemaster

Page 4/Introduction

Gamemasters are, of course, free to introduce alternative explanations and interpretations of the material offered here. For example, if a gamemaster disagrees with the concept of identifying the Master with the meddling Monk who faced the first Doctor, or if he feels there is a better explanation of the Master's escape from the volcanic fire on Sarn, such changes should be freely implmented 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have previously included the relevant Monk/Master information from the CIA File extracts in the 'Other appearances' section.82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, does the fact that the book is effectively saying that anything or everything written within, concerning the Monk/Master's history, is potentially bovine feces, mean that it isn't a reliable enough source for Wikipedia anyway? 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

My honest critique is that it can be mentioned here, but more detailed description of the game contents can be described in the game's own article. DonQuixote (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Er, that's in-universe. And it's merely saying that the players are free to change elements of the Role Playing Game as they see fit. However, the Module itself identifies the Master with 'The Monk'. It's like if you get together with friends to play football. There are official rules of the game. But you and your friends having fun on a Saturday afternoon may choose to mix it up a bit by changing a few rules. But that doesn't change what the actual rules are. And typical DonQuixote for trying to distort what it actually says, and making several illogical leaps from there... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 16:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The second quote I gave you, yes, however the first quote casts doubts on the validity of the CIA file extract and it is the very same CIA file extract that you find the information on the Monk being the Master. If it is stated to be "neither complete nor totally accurate" and "reflecting the outright fabrications of its Time Lord authors", you effectively have a source which questions its own legitimacy, and i'm sure that is an important piece of information if the 'not-we' are ever to come across the Monk article for further info on the character and draw their own conclusions.82.26.182.43 (talk) 16:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, the article is already skewed as it is. Some may say that this article existing in its own right is already OR/POV. But the point is, how would you suggets the information be added? Could you show a rough text here on the discussion page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 19:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I agree with both of you. The article itself really needs to be sorted out. At the moment i'd only add something in the same vein as what I wrote before, but if that comes across as OR/POV to you or anyone else reading it, even with a citation, there's not really much point at this stage.82.26.182.43 (talk) 20:18, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Quantum Archangel issue

Why are the events of the novel 'Quantum Archangel' being contested, or having doubt cast upon them?

If you google 'Quantum Archangel Monk' you will find multiple references to them.

86.25.30.125 (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

A quick skim of the book results in 'Mortimus, otherwise known as the Monk' (pg. 233). DonQuixote (talk) 14:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Hope this helps others 86.25.30.125 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I have further removed any information I have written that hasn't had a reliable third party source attached to it. Hope this sorts out any issues 86.25.30.125 (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

86 is taking things to unfortunate lengths. At this point the article may be beyond salvation anyway, as it's just a bunch of fanon and OR slung together to create somebody's POV fan fiction idea rather than anything using proper RS. I wash my hands of this mess of an "Article". Feel free to add whatever fan fiction you like, I'm beyond caring at this point. 41.132.178.141 (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

There's absolutely no point in deliberately targeting my edits just because they don't fit your POV. Most of the article exists without third party reference, therefore it is clear that you are aiming to remove anything that you disagree with. You can't have it both ways, either accept that some material contradicts your 'theory' or have none that may confirm it. Your choice. 86.25.30.125 (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've looked at what's happened since I stopped editing, and 86 has reinstated all his/her nonsense, while DonQuxiote has now added cn tags to the one story that is unambiguously the same character. Thank you for confirming my worst fears about mankind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 16:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Never touched it, and if your worst fears about mankind involve people disagreeing with your monopoly over certain Wikipedia articles, then it's about time really. Just be kinder in future, accept that not everyone wants to be told what to believe. 86.25.30.125 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

(EC) Er...you have everything backwards. If you have to say 'however, it was clearly the same character', then it's not unambiguous. If you can directly quote the primary source, such as 'Mortimus, otherwise known as the Monk', then it's unambiguous. Right now I'm going through my DWM #78-83 to check whether it is 'clearly the same character'.

And all that stuff you dislike isn't nonsense or fanon because it's published works of fiction. Wikipedia doesn't care about fanon or continuity or whatever but about the works of fiction as being works of fiction--publication, marketing, cultural influence, etc. DonQuixote (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I gave the page a semi-prot, hopefully it will be discussed in a civil manner. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Would the DW reference guides by Mad Norwegian Press be considered reliable sources? --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Union of Opposites ‖ 17:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes. They are reliable secondary sources which discuss the primary sources (the works of fiction). As such, they would certainly be useful in this discussion. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Wrong emphasis

The television stories The Time Meddler and The Daleks' Master Plan get very brief points, but the other media gets long, rambling sections?

In particular, the whole novels and, especially, the Big Finish sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 12:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

That's a recurring problem for summaries (see, for example, The Masque of Mandragora#Plot). Feel free to trim them down to the major points. DonQuixote (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

The Monk as a character

A character credited as 'The Monk' appears in The Time Meddler and The Daleks' Masterplan. That's the point. So please stop trying to remove all mentions of the character. DonQuixote (talk) 13:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

And the same serials credit William Hartnell as "Doctor Who".

In addition, Geoffrey Beevers was credited as "Melkur" in The Keeper of Traken. While Derek Jacobi was credited as "Yana" in Utopia.

So, I take it you'll be creating new articles for Yana and Melkur as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 14:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Seriously, he's credited as 'The Monk'. We're talking about that character. We're not talking about any other character. DonQuixote (talk) 14:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Look, for this character that's the only thing that we can go by. There are no works of nonfiction that refer to him by anything else. (That's why we're not going to start referring to him as Mortimus either.)

As for Melkur, etc.--there's works of nonfiction that explicitly state that they were meant to be the Master during the production of the episodes. DonQuixote (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

No. Using that 'logic', then there are other Time Lords called 'Yana', 'Melkur' etc. Unless you are fixated on ONE issue for POV reasons.

And using your logic, then the main character is called 'Doctor Who'. As that's what the credits say.

Yes there are. The article even states as much.

Same with the "monk"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk • contribs)

You really need to differentiate between in-universe POV and real-world POV.

In the real world

1. The Monk is a character that appeared in two serials
2. The War Chief is a character that appeared in one serial
3. The Master was created by Barry Letts and Terrence Dicks as a foil for Jon Pertwee
4. Some primary sources combined two or more of the above characters
5. Some primary sources do not
6. The Melkur was created as a character but then merged during production with the character of the Master and then presented as such during first broadcast and in promotional materials.
7. Professor Yana was created as an alias of the Master during the writing of the episode.

Etc. DonQuixote (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Missed one...

Yes there are. The article even states as much...Same with the "monk"...

I keep asking you to provide those sources. So please do so. And games are not works of nonfiction, they're games. DonQuixote (talk) 14:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

For example, something like this Ware, Peter. "Fact File: Utopia". bbc.co.uk. BBC. Retrieved 31 May 2020. DonQuixote (talk) 14:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

But that's NOT a game, is it? If you get a DVD or Blu-Ray, in addition to the actual story, there will be features, such as documentaries, making-of's on the same disc. If you buy a book(such as a novel), there will often be a foreword and/or an afterword, which gives more information about the story. Likewise, if you buy a game, it will contain information about the environment, about the characters etc. that is not actually part of the game itself. Of course, you no doubt already know that, but admission would blow your entire POV-based case out of the water. Seriously, if that's "part of the game", then every documentary, special feature, Blue Peter etc. on every DVD/Blu-Ray is also "primary in-universe narrative" material as well.

"The Monk" was credited with two serials. "The War Chief" was credited with one serial. But then, going by credits we do also have a "Professor Yana", a "Melkur" etc. So, how do we know that Melkur, Yana etc. are just other names for one other character? Promotional materials? You mean like the Doctor Who Magazine promotion for The King's Demons which explicitly stated that the villain would be the same villain from The Time Meddler? And then, of course, it turned out to be the Master?(So, they were right, of course) And, the name "Master" was first used in the Barry Letts Era. That's all. The novelisation of Terror of the Autons written by Dicks explicitly states that the name "Master" is a brand new name. Yes, that's "primary" material, but it does mean that that name would not have been used for that one character prior to Autons, and at least one other name would have been used. Meanwhile, the comic "4-Dimensional Vistas" NEVER used the word "monk". So, how do you know it's the same character? Simple, common sense. And what is said in the real world. And here's a good piece by a mainstream site [1], [2], [3], [4], [5].

Of course we should USE COMMON SENSE. If the narrative establishes that the Doctor, the "Monk"(established to be a temporary disguise), the "War Chief"(established to be a rank, bot his preferred nom-de-plume) and the Master are all renegade Time Lords, but Malcolm Hulke says, as he does in an interview (re)printed in DWM 91 "There was a peculiar relationship between the Master and the Doctor: one felt that the Master wouldn't really have liked to eliminate the Doctor...you see the Doctor was the only person like him at the time in the whole universe, a renegade Time Lord and in a funny sort of way they were partners in crime." Then, it is stating the bleeding obvious that ANY renegade Time Lord at that time was either the Doctor or the Master. The "The Monk" article states that "the Monk" had a stolen TARDIS. The television serial The War Games(again co-written by Dicks) explicitly states that the "War Chief" stole a TARDIS. Whereas the Master stealing a TARDIS is established in multiple Delgado-Era media. Then in the novelisation of Colony in Space, it is explicitly stated that, up to that point, only two TARDISes have ever been stolen, one by the Doctor and one by the Master. Yes, it's "in-universe", but again we need to USE COMMON SENSE. Because thus, anyone who had stolen a TARDIS up to that point was either the Doctor or the Master. In Terrance Dicks' novelisation of The Three Doctors, Dicks himself states that, prior to Omega, the Doctor had only ever encountered ONE other renegade Time Lord..the Master. Yes, it's "primary", but again, USE COMMON SENSE. Dicks is explicitly telling us here that if the Doctor had come up against a renegade Time Lord prior to Season 10, then that renegade Time Lord is the Master. And the INFORMATION (ie. not part of the actual game) in games restates this in as many words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 05:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'm done. It's obvious that you have no interest in learning about primary sources, secondary sources, etc.--you're just here to advance your fan theory. I bent over backwards to take the time to explain guidelines and policies to you, but they're just falling on deaf ears and it's getting rather tiresome. From here on, if you stray outside the guidelines I'll just point to the guidelines and policies and leave it at that. Seriously, if you can't tell what a work of nonfiction is (secondary sources), then you shouldn't be trying to write a tertiary source. DonQuixote (talk) 07:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Like this ? [6]. And how is The Register a primary source?

By the way, I'm not "advancing my fan theory". The so-called "fan theory" is stated as plain fact in official sources. Plus., again, USING COMMON SENSE. It's like the joke about a hillbilly standing there with one woman, and saying "This is my sister and my wife". Yet there's just one woman standing there. Can you work that out? Did you know that Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde are actually the same person? Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are the same person? Did you know that 'Princess Alexandrina of Kent' and 'Queen Victoria' were actually the same woman? Or would you insist that those are all cases of two separate people? Seriously, right now this article is pushing ONE particular POV. And, you never answered how you "know" that the character in the DWM comic 4-Dimensional Vistas is the same character from the tv serial The Time Meddler. Since he is obviously never referred to as "the monk" in that comic. And nor should he have been. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 08:16, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes. That's a work of nonfiction. Now to apply due weight. Since he's a critic who's expressing his analysis of the primary source (the episodes), unless a notable number of other critics come to the same conclusion, then it's a fringe theory. If more critics express the same thing as he does, then it's a popular opinion which should be reflected in this article. So, if you can find more such secondary sources, then this article will be changed to reflect that. DonQuixote (talk) 08:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, different primary sources state different things about The Monk and The Master. Wikipedia documents every version of the character. The fact that you're unwilling to understand that is the cause of the friction. (See Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde.) DonQuixote (talk) 08:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Re [7], it's not OR, but it's also trivia so not worth my time on that. DonQuixote (talk) 08:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh, but it IS OR. By the way, you still refuse to answer my question about "4-Dimensional Vistas". As the character is only ever referred to as "The Time Meddler" in that story, how can you know it is the same character as the character from the tv serial The Time Meddler?

And, more OR. A character called "Mortimus" appears in the novel No Future who is supposed to be the same character as the Peter Butterworth character in The Time Meddler(despite having a totally different backstory to him). Then, 'Mortimus' appears in the novel Divided Loyalties. Nowhere in Divided Loyalties is this 'Mortimus' referred to as "the monk"(or anything similar). I repeat..NOWHERE. So, it requires WP:OR to state that, allegedly,

We have "the monk" from The Time Meddler, we have a character from No Future called 'Mortimus'(with a totally different backstory), and then we have another character from 'Mortimus' from Divided Loyalties, who is NEVER referred to as "the Monk". (And, by the way, this 'Mortimus' has a totally different backstory to the 'Mortimus' from No Future as well.) How, then does anyone "know" that 'Mortimus' in Divided Loyalties is the same character as "the monk" in The Time Meddler? The answer is someone used the "primary source", and came to that conclusion through WP:OR. Despite the wildly differing backstories for the THREE characters. Yet, you accuse me(and others, I have read these discussion pages on Wiki) of OR, for using "primary source" material where "two characters" have IDENTICAL backstories. So, how do you explain that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 09:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I haven't actually added any of the entries in Other appearances, so it's no use asking me about them. I assumed good faith that they were summarising the primary sources accurately. If you think that they're not doing that, then you can trim them to the major points.

As for, 4-Dimensional Vistas, I admit that I let that one slide past because I was getting tired of arguing that with another IP who had the same POV as you. Yeah, another IP who thought as you did thought differently about that one primary source. That's why we primarily rely on works of nonfiction and due weight--to avoid editors' personal opinions. DonQuixote (talk) 09:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Funny you "Assume good faith" when people agree with your personal fan theories, yet become rather persistent when someone adds reliably sourced material that conflicts with your personal fan theories...

And you've still "let it slide". I take it you're not actually going to answer? because to do so would be to admit that all your ranting about "primary sources", "due weight" etc. doesn't really mean anything in this case?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk • contribs)

Dude, I assumed good faith when you added the entry on the board game. It's when you pull stunts like this [8] that it's hard to assume good faith. Seriously, stop trying to erase mentions of all the other versions of the character. Wikipedia documents every version of the character.

And if you want to remove the comic strip entry, feel free to do so as I dont mind one way or the other on that. To be honest, whether it's included or not doesn't affect this article that much. DonQuixote (talk) 11:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this one final way, and, as I've said, I'm done trying to explain it.

Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde is an adaptation of the novel. The film does not have to have the same version of the character as the novel and vise-versa--especially if there are other adaptations (film, television, games, etc.). Similary the FASA game is an adaptation of the television programme. The game does not have to have the same version of the character as the programme and vise-versa--especially if there are other adaptations (film, games, novels, etc.). DonQuixote (talk) 11:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

But you are clearly showing POV preference towards one version. As the interviews with people who worked on the series, along with the Target novelisations, various games, promotional material etc. made clear. Plus, the episode The Time Meddler made clear..."monk" is just a disguise.

Then, decades later, Paul Cornell went on a one-man crusade to split one character(No Future, Goth Opera, The Discontinuity Guide, Seasons of Fear..all written by the same person). But, using that logic, the entire Jon Pertwee Television Era was worthless, as Cornell gave it all 0/10. And the article reads very stupidly, as The Daleks' Master Plan correctly states that the "Monk" was seen on television on an icy planet, but with no control where or when his TARDIS will materialise next. Then, later, it states that he was trapped on that planet! Well, maybe in Cornell's No Future, but not in The Daleks' Master Plan.

So, that's contradictory material. Imagine how someone coming fresh to this article must feel when reading it. Two mutually incompatible statements, not that far apart. That may have been fine for a Virgin New Adventure, but it's totally unacceptable for Wikipedia.

If the answer is "We must give all versions of a character", then surely the "Monk" is just one version of the Master! There's the Sam Kisgart Master (BF Audios), the Jonathan Pryce Master (Curse of Fatal Death), the Shalka Master etc. Actually in this case, several "Monks", as Cornell's never met the Doctor before The Time Meddler, and was stranded on an ice planet. Unlike the television version. The Divided Loyalties ' Mortimus' knew the Doctor on Gallifrey, but left Gallifrey before the Doctor. He also gave atomic bazookas to the Normans, while the television version was attempting to help the Anglo-Saxons defeat the Normans. Then there's the Big Finish Garden/Hound version who actually left Gallifrey 50 years after the Doctor, really is called "the Monk"(the only one of the four to actually use that name the same way the Doctor is called 'the Doctor'), and never progresses or evolved, even across different incarnations.

If these FOUR different versions are all lumped together, and all the different Masters are all lumped together, then why the page split? After all, one of thesr four 'Monks' is unambiguously the Master? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.126 (talk) 06:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

As a suggestion, look at Joker (character). Just going by live action, there's the Cesar Romero Joker, Jack Nicholson Joker, Heath Ledger Joker, Jared Leto Joker, and Joaquin Phoenix Joker. Obviously, there are also comic book Jokers, and animated Jokers etc. But these five should suffice for the point being made here. While, they are all The Joker, there are clear biographical differences between them, even as far as whether the Joker was mobster Jack Napier, or failed stand-up comedian Arthur Fleck. Was the Joker's face that way from make-up or, acid burns? Was he the one who killed Thomas and Martha Wayne, did he incite the killings of Thomas and Martha Wayne, or was he totally unconnected to the killings of Thomas and Martha Wayne? Clearly, while all five are playing Batman villain The Joker, they are playing five different Jokers, in five different media. A single biography of "The Joker" would not, and should not include him being both loser Arthur Fleck, and the multimillionaire of the 60's Adam West Batman. That is why there is [9].

Now, is there an "Ur-Joker"? Perhaps. Is there an "Ur-Monk" in Doctor Who? Yes, it's the television show. And in this one, he wasn't a monk, he was never stranded on any ice planet etc. And, going by the the writings, interviews, promotional material of the people who actually worked on that television show, it's explicitly clear, and totally unambiguous. what happened to "the monk" after The Daleks' Master Plan. He ultimately became the Master.

Now, after the television show had gone off the air, after the Doctor Who Production Office had been shut down, other people, unrelated to the making of the television show, created their own alternative versions. Paul Cornell had his version. Gary Russell had his version. Big Finish have their version. But, these three versions are completely incompatible with each other. And, FAR more importantly, they are all totally incompatible with the character that Peter Butterworth played on television in the 1960's. Even if we only go with the two television serials, these 'Cornell Mortimus', 'Russell Mortimus', and 'Big Finish Monk' characters are all still 100% incompatible with what actually appeared on television.

So, it's not "the Monk in other media". It's "Alternative Versions of the Monk". Or, actually more accurately, "Alternative Versions of the Master" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.126 (talk) 09:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

As the interviews with people who worked on the series

You haven't provided any of those interviews. And interviews with Letts and Dicks say otherwise.

along with the Target novelisations

The novelisations are adaptations and should be treated like other adaptations.

Plus, the episode The Time Meddler made clear..."monk" is just a disguise

Yes, and that's the only disguise that we're aware of. Nothing else is mentioned in the television programme. Every other mention is in other media--adaptations.

But you are clearly showing POV preference towards one version.

Yeah, no. You're the one doing that and projecting that onto me. Every version, television, games, novels, etc., is listed in this article with due weight. The fact that you're trying to push your favourite version as the one-and-only version is the problem. And with that, I'm done. It's quite obvious that that's all you're here to do. If you're unwilling or unable to understand the difference between the original work (television programme) and it's adaptations (games, novels, etc.), then that's all on you. All I'm going to say is, please don't stray outside the guidelines. DonQuixote (talk) 11:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Parenthetical comments

@197.86.143.126: Leave the parenthetical comments to yourself. Unless a secondary source makes that comment, let the reader make their own connections and observations. DonQuixote (talk) 11:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

It's part of a summary of a tv episode. If that doesn't count, then most of the article should be deleted. And, your post reads like a personal attack. Try not to be so abrasive and offensive.

Then it should be part of the summary of the tv episode and not a parenthetical commentary. I mean, it's about as inappropriate as writing the following parenthetical commentary

In the "Information" section of the board game Doctor Who: The Game of Time & Space, it is stated that "the Monk", the War Chief and the Master are simply three different incarnations of the same Time Lord (although, in the television programme, the three were never said to be the same character).

Notice that it's steering the reader towards a certian interpretation and POV. I apologise that my curt comment was abrasive, but, again, please try to stay within the guidelines of writing tertiary sources. DonQuixote (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

The article as it is now is steering the reader towards a certain interpretation and POV. It's a POV article. All that has been done is some sources have been added which slightly redress the balance.

Yeah, no. The article right now is neutral--it only documents the appearances and leaves everything open to interpretation. Stop trying to advance your POV. DonQuixote (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, Cloister Library, is a fansite that's a whole heaping pile of copyright violations and can't be used as a source. DonQuixote (talk) 10:09, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

And from WP:NPOV: Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. That is to say, unless you can cite those interviews or behind-the-scenes books, etc., (or more than just a couple of opinion pieces--at least ten) your POV is still fringe. DonQuixote (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Wrong on all counts. As usual. By the way, didn't you say that you weren't going to edit this article any more? Only for this little temper tantrum...

Er...what?...I said I wasn't going to bend over backwards to explain basic concepts to you anymore. Again, please read WP:PRIMARY, WP:DUE, etc. Also, see WP:false balance.

And...primary sources can be cited to summarise their contents, per WP:PRIMARY. DonQuixote (talk) 11:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

No, here... [10]. Or is that a totally different person?