Talk:2019 Bolivian political crisis: Difference between revisions
Zellfire999 (talk | contribs) |
→Elections: new section |
||
Line 109: | Line 109: | ||
The information is presented as though it were chronological, but actually when you read it through, it bounces all over chronologically. One case in point: the decree 4078 is actually mentioned 3 separate times, as though it were 3 different things. This is very confusing. Maybe it would be easiest to bring all of the events into a timeline. Otherwise, somehow it needs to be clarified that the events explained in the events section are not in chronological order. [[User:Laella|Laella]] ([[User talk:Laella|talk]]) 01:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC) |
The information is presented as though it were chronological, but actually when you read it through, it bounces all over chronologically. One case in point: the decree 4078 is actually mentioned 3 separate times, as though it were 3 different things. This is very confusing. Maybe it would be easiest to bring all of the events into a timeline. Otherwise, somehow it needs to be clarified that the events explained in the events section are not in chronological order. [[User:Laella|Laella]] ([[User talk:Laella|talk]]) 01:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC) |
||
== Elections == |
|||
Including rose-tinted purple prose about the Election bill, and claiming that MAS "returned to government," is completely baseless. The coup<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Molina |first1=Jonathan |url=https://www.dailycal.org/2020/02/09/us-must-condemn-coup-support-democracy-in-bolivia/ |accessdate=3 August 2020 |date=9 February 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://theintercept.com/2020/07/23/the-u-s-supported-coup-in-bolivia-continues-to-produce-repression-and-tyranny-while-revealing-how-u-s-media-propaganda-works/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2019/12/mil-191225-presstv06.htm}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/07/30/our-obligation-defend-democracy-bolivians-join-mass-marches-against-election-delay}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Prashad |first1=Vijay |last2=Bejarano |first2=Alejandro |title=‘We Will Coup Whoever We Want’: Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia |url=https://citizentruth.org/we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-elon-musk-and-the-overthrow-of-democracy-in-bolivia/ |accessdate=3 August 2020 |work=Citizen Truth |date=28 July 2020}}</ref> government has "delayed" elections three times<ref>{{cite news |title=Bolivia's coup administration delays elections for third time |url=https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/enwiki/w/bolivia-coup-administration-delays-elections-for-third-time |accessdate=3 August 2020 |work=Morning Star |date=30 July 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Vargas |first1=Oliver |title=Bolivia’s Coup Government Just Suspended Elections for the Third Time |url=https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/07/bolivia-elections-coup-mas-morales-anez |accessdate=3 August 2020 |work=Jacobin |agency=Jacobin |date=28 July 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.ft.com/content/de1fbf40-87a3-4247-a569-c15a27beb68d}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Lopez |first1=Oscar |title=Bolivian Presidential Election delayed for a third time |url=https://aldianews.com/articles/politics/elections/bolivian-presidential-election-delayed-third-time/59747 |accessdate=8/3/2020 |agency=Al Dia News |date=July 27, 2020}}</ref>, has sold off huge amounts of public assets<ref>{{cite news |title=Bolivian Coup Comes Less Than a Week After Morales Stopped Multinational Firm's Lithium Deal |url=https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/11/11/bolivian-coup-comes-less-week-after-morales-stopped-multinational-firms-lithium-deal |accessdate=3 August 2020 |work=Common Dreams |date=11 November 2019}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Prashad |first1=Vijay |last2=Bejarano |first2=Alejandro |title=‘We Will Coup Whoever We Want’: Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia |url=https://citizentruth.org/we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-elon-musk-and-the-overthrow-of-democracy-in-bolivia/ |accessdate=3 August 2020 |work=Citizen Truth |date=28 July 2020}}</ref>, massacred protesters<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bolivia-protests-deaths-1.5362104}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50441867}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.npr.org/2019/11/16/780118421/8-killed-in-bolivia-as-protesters-call-for-return-of-ousted-president-evo-morale}}</ref>, broken diplomatic relations with several countries<ref>{{cite news |url=https://news.yahoo.com/bolivias-interim-government-cuts-ties-cuba-foreign-ministry-181604058.html}}</ref>, and they did all of this with a "President" that appointed herself without quorum<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.foxnews.com/world/bolivia-opposition-leader-declares-president-morales-resignation}}</ref>. The Washington Post has repeatedly retracted their support for the coup<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/27/oas-has-lot-answer-new-study-disputes-key-claim-paved-way-right-wing-coup-bolivia}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/no-evidence-of-in-morales-poll-victory-say-us-researchers-bolivia}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://fair.org/home/wapo-prints-study-that-found-paper-backed-an-undemocratic-bolivia-coup/}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/}}</ref>. If you consider Evo Morales running with the approval of the courts to be "illegitimate," then surely an unelected "president" who denies elections that were supposed to be done a month after the interim government was formed is far more "illegitimate." |
|||
It is absolutely embarrassing to pretend that this is even a contentious issue. It isn't. Everyone who was trumpeting Evo's removal has been back pedaling for a year. |
Revision as of 21:59, 3 August 2020
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2019 Bolivian political crisis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 45 days |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
A news item involving 2019 Bolivian political crisis was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 11 November 2019. |
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2019 Bolivian political crisis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 45 days |
coup d'etat once more
OR
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
I actually support the title of a coup d etat. On a cold blooded analysis I must admit though, that this doesn't represent NPOV. On the other hand not mentioning coup d'état in the title violates exactly in the same way NPOV (there are quite enough arguments about this already, I don't want to repeat them here, the following tablet analyses the situation anyway and tries to compress these arguments). Is there a title that can achieve consensus and reflect both these edges? my answer is:YES: 2019 Coup d etat (?) in Bolivia. In this way we mention the fact that the situation has (actually almost all of) the characteristics of a coup d'état and (through the question mark) point out that there are also characteristics, that don't represent a coup d'état (I mean: die Cocaleros are now actually deciding, who their new leader will be, without being threatened...). The change in the title is thereafter the only that respects at last the NPOV fundamental principle of Wikipedia (which is actually definitely NOT being respected with the "political crisis" title) and respects also consensus. A comment about the Tablet: the references are actually a combination of comments and references. I couldn't find a way to separate them, without making it extreme difficult to read the tablet. The tablet should be simple, in order to make the arguments easy to see.
|
Thanks for posting, I agree it was a coup as well. MarianAlmazan (talk) 01:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree it should be called a coup as well. Not sure if you even need the question mark really because there's a preponderance of evidence that it's a coup, but overall I like your approach and appreciate the through analysis. I think [3] is a bit more clear-cut than you're aware though. He clearly was intimidated and harassed (protesters committed a number of violent acts towards specific MAS government officials, including literally burning down his sister's house)[1].
- ^ ("Morales sister's house set on fire, right wing coup underway in Bolivia". Post Online Media. 10 November 2019.)
It is now more clear than ever- both in the increased doubt of the alleged fraud and in the behavior of the supposedly temporary regime in repressing dissent, arresting and threatening the political opposition, and continuing to delay elections- that this was a coup. It fits virtually every element of the definition. Zellfire999 (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
No Excuse for Excluding MIT Researchers' Findings
The fact that MIT researchers were able to confirm CEPR's findings is an essential part of the story of this coup. Whether this was endorsed by MIT or whether it was new information has no bearing on whether this is important, because these findings were what caused the New York Times and especially the Washington post to cover the OAS's report critically. This had a significant effect on restoring Morales' international legitimacy and caused many more people to doubt the methodology and motivations in the OAS report. I also think it is highly inappropriate for Wikipedia to automatically assume that respected election experts hired to check the data in a study will automatically agree with the study just because they were compensated for their analysis. And the assertion that the CEPR report were not based on "direct analysis of evidence" is just entirely false, and firs-hand knowledge of Bolivia is totally irrelevant to the analysis because they backed up their claims with data and news reports. They were literally analyzing the same data used in the OAS report. But even if someone doubts the analysis, there is no reasonable excuse for removing this from the article aside from politically motivated censorship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.27.98.114 (talk) 02:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
CEPR / MIT Analysis
researchers at MIT (although not with MIT endorsement) did a re-hash of the CEPR analysis. The analysis was paid for by CEPR, and not surprisingly had identical results as CEPR. There is no new or significant material in this report. It is also not based on any first-hand knowledge of Bolivia, or direct analysis of evidence.
- From CEPR's description of the MIT researchers' study: "Disclosure: In December 2019, the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) contracted with the authors to see if the numerical and statistical results of CEPR’s November 2019 study could be independently verified."[1]
I see no value in adding echos of biased material that is already included in the wikipedia article. If the report is referenced, then for the sake of full disclosure, it should include the information that MIT did not endorse the report, and that the report was commissioned and paid for by CEPR. --Laella (talk) 09:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Per letter from MIT:
"...they carried out the project they described in their piece as independent contractors to the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR)... this study was conducted independently of MIT... it should be referred to as a CEPR study..."[2]
MIT has specifically said they don't endorse the study. There is no reason to continue to refer to this study using the name of MIT. Laella (talk) 08:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
International Support Flags in the Sidebar
108.18.37.199 (talk · contribs) has been adding flags to represent international support to both sides of the conflict. There is no source for this information, and there are some countries that are present on both sides. There's also not a logical seeming reason to include some of these countries, which may have made positive or negative statements, but were inconsequential to the crisis, while countries which were more involved have been left off. Some of these are also wrong - Russia in particular was firmly pro-Morales I would like to see some justification for including these particular countries, and for which side. Preferably with a citation. --Laella (talk) 09:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Just remove them, there's already an international response section (or page - I saw it recently) Kingsif (talk) 17:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
warning do not delete international support and people have to know — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntiCommunist1 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
AntiCommunist1 (talk · contribs):
- You have to cite a source. Where are you getting the information?
- There is an entire page dedicated to this topic Reactions_to_the_2019_Bolivian_political_crisis
- Warning?! Why are you being threatening? You need to explain, not give warnings.
--Laella (talk) 20:56, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Hey @Laella because I know in my brain I didn't watch Website news only I can think i don't want to write a private article note because it's too complicated — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntiCommunist1 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- AntiCommunist1 (talk · contribs): I responded to you on the other article page, but I still want to point out here that knowing something in your brain is not enough. If something is too complicated, ask for help, people will help you. If you write it here in the talk page, some people may even do it for you. But you can't avoid using sources just because you think it's complicated. - Laella (talk) 03:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Chronology of Events section / decree no. 4078
The information is presented as though it were chronological, but actually when you read it through, it bounces all over chronologically. One case in point: the decree 4078 is actually mentioned 3 separate times, as though it were 3 different things. This is very confusing. Maybe it would be easiest to bring all of the events into a timeline. Otherwise, somehow it needs to be clarified that the events explained in the events section are not in chronological order. Laella (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Elections
Including rose-tinted purple prose about the Election bill, and claiming that MAS "returned to government," is completely baseless. The coup[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] government has "delayed" elections three times[10][11][12][13], has sold off huge amounts of public assets[14][15], massacred protesters[16][17][18], broken diplomatic relations with several countries[19], and they did all of this with a "President" that appointed herself without quorum[20]. The Washington Post has repeatedly retracted their support for the coup[21][22][23][24][25][26]. If you consider Evo Morales running with the approval of the courts to be "illegitimate," then surely an unelected "president" who denies elections that were supposed to be done a month after the interim government was formed is far more "illegitimate."
It is absolutely embarrassing to pretend that this is even a contentious issue. It isn't. Everyone who was trumpeting Evo's removal has been back pedaling for a year.
- ^ Williams, Jack. "Analysis of the 2019 Bolivia Election". Center for Economic and Policy Research. CEPR. Retrieved 1 March 2020.
- ^ "Lee la carta del MIT donde niega haber realizado el estudio que pone en duda el fraude electoral". Los Tiempos (in Spanish). 5 March 2020.
- ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ Molina, Jonathan (9 February 2020). https://www.dailycal.org/2020/02/09/us-must-condemn-coup-support-democracy-in-bolivia/. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/23/the-u-s-supported-coup-in-bolivia-continues-to-produce-repression-and-tyranny-while-revealing-how-u-s-media-propaganda-works/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2019/12/mil-191225-presstv06.htm.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/07/30/our-obligation-defend-democracy-bolivians-join-mass-marches-against-election-delay.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ Prashad, Vijay; Bejarano, Alejandro (28 July 2020). "'We Will Coup Whoever We Want': Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia". Citizen Truth. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
- ^ "Bolivia's coup administration delays elections for third time". Morning Star. 30 July 2020. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
- ^ Vargas, Oliver (28 July 2020). "Bolivia's Coup Government Just Suspended Elections for the Third Time". Jacobin. Jacobin. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
- ^ https://www.ft.com/content/de1fbf40-87a3-4247-a569-c15a27beb68d.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ Lopez, Oscar (July 27, 2020). "Bolivian Presidential Election delayed for a third time". Al Dia News. Retrieved 8/3/2020.
{{cite news}}
: Check date values in:|accessdate=
(help) - ^ "Bolivian Coup Comes Less Than a Week After Morales Stopped Multinational Firm's Lithium Deal". Common Dreams. 11 November 2019. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
- ^ Prashad, Vijay; Bejarano, Alejandro (28 July 2020). "'We Will Coup Whoever We Want': Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia". Citizen Truth. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
- ^ https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bolivia-protests-deaths-1.5362104.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50441867.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.npr.org/2019/11/16/780118421/8-killed-in-bolivia-as-protesters-call-for-return-of-ousted-president-evo-morale.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://news.yahoo.com/bolivias-interim-government-cuts-ties-cuba-foreign-ministry-181604058.html.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.foxnews.com/world/bolivia-opposition-leader-declares-president-morales-resignation.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/27/oas-has-lot-answer-new-study-disputes-key-claim-paved-way-right-wing-coup-bolivia.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/no-evidence-of-in-morales-poll-victory-say-us-researchers-bolivia.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://fair.org/home/wapo-prints-study-that-found-paper-backed-an-undemocratic-bolivia-coup/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help)
- Biography articles of living people
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- C-Class Bolivia articles
- High-importance Bolivia articles
- C-Class military history articles
- C-Class South American military history articles
- South American military history task force articles
- C-Class Post-Cold War articles
- Post-Cold War task force articles
- C-Class politics articles
- Unknown-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- Wikipedia In the news articles