User talk:瑞丽江的河水: Difference between revisions
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::::You may interested in the reference book ''Study of historical geography in southwest of China''. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BbveMDdKhA2nroM06PTSDHdvoF3KUFu8/view?usp=sharing Here is it].--[[User:瑞丽江的河水|<span style="border-radius:999px;background:#39b;padding:0 10px;color:#fff">Xiliuheshui</span>]] · [[User talk:瑞丽江的河水|<small style="color:red">chat</small>]] 21:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC) |
::::You may interested in the reference book ''Study of historical geography in southwest of China''. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BbveMDdKhA2nroM06PTSDHdvoF3KUFu8/view?usp=sharing Here is it].--[[User:瑞丽江的河水|<span style="border-radius:999px;background:#39b;padding:0 10px;color:#fff">Xiliuheshui</span>]] · [[User talk:瑞丽江的河水|<small style="color:red">chat</small>]] 21:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::::Back to your question, sorry I don't understand what is "Tian monolith". Is it a special stone stele? And I didn't get what you said "if they are Tian monolith or not". Do you means "do they have Tian monolith or not"?--[[User:瑞丽江的河水|<span style="border-radius:999px;background:#39b;padding:0 10px;color:#fff">Xiliuheshui</span>]] · [[User talk:瑞丽江的河水|<small style="color:red">chat</small>]] 21:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC) |
::::Back to your question, sorry I don't understand what is "Tian monolith". Is it a special stone stele? And I didn't get what you said "if they are Tian monolith or not". Do you means "do they have Tian monolith or not"?--[[User:瑞丽江的河水|<span style="border-radius:999px;background:#39b;padding:0 10px;color:#fff">Xiliuheshui</span>]] · [[User talk:瑞丽江的河水|<small style="color:red">chat</small>]] 21:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Front page have some stone structure. They have shape of [[Tian]]. Tian is Chinese representation of Heaven. [[User:Hachengsa|Hachengsa]] ([[User talk:Hachengsa|talk]]) 06:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Thanks, and feel free to message me about anything. Paris1127 (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
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Paris1127 (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
reversion for Momien
Hi, I've reverted this to a redirect as evidence has not been provided or found for the change. If you have a reliable source would you please revert to DAB (actually it should be a WP:SIA instead) and cite it - preferably at the target but otherwise on the page. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 01:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Hydronium Hydroxide: Done, how do you think the citation or should I offer more materials.--Xiliuheshui · chat 01:48, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, the quote was helpful - change accepted. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 01:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Hydronium Hydroxide: Cheers. I changed that when I reading the Template:Shan states, lots of mistakes lol. I found that it is a big difference between Chinese and English Wikipedia that SIA and DAB are almost the same in Chinese Wikipedia. Thanks for teach me the difference.--Xiliuheshui · chat 02:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, the quote was helpful - change accepted. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 01:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for July 12
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Momien, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Chinese (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).
(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Want to know more
Sir, May i get complete quote of your addition in Dimasa Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Dimasa_Kingdom&diff=963974671&oldid=963974488 . Thank you Hachengsa (talk) 20:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Hachengsa: Sure, the paragraph is below:
大古剌等处土酋泼的那浪所遣使臣选马撒等言其邻境有七曰大古剌小古剌底马撒茶山底板孟伦八家塔皆在西南极边自昔不通中国今天朝遣官宣布恩命人民皆愿内属乞设官统理仍招谕旁近未附之从之以大古剌底马撒二处地广各置宣慰使司小古剌茶山底板孟伦八家塔各置长官司以泼的那浪为大古剌宣慰使腊罔帕为底马撒宣慰使拜张早张看伽立昧刀罕替刀轻罕为小古剌等长官使长官俱给诰即敕符金字红牌遣给事中周让等赍 敕往赐之仍各赐钞币有差
You can find Ming Shilu in the Chinese Text Project. And the quote was from the project website page here. "Institute of History and Philology, Academia Sinica" of Taiwan has republished Ming Shilu some years ago and I have the digital book (here). The information is on the page 0817-0818. There are three times of records about Dimasa in the Ming Shilu, I stated them in the article Dimasa Kingdom in Chinese Wikipedia.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)- Say one more thing, former Chinese study believe that Dimasa Xuanwei Si was in the Lower Burma. But in the early 20 century, the seal of Dimasa Xuanwei Si was found in Assam. Burmese scholar Chen Yi-sein did a little study about Dimasa in the thesis Study of 'Great Gula', 'Little Gula' and 'Dimasa' (in Chinese language). I upload the thesis file to my google drive (here), you can try to read with a translator. If you have any problem on Chinese literature I can help you.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you so much. In Assam, There are some monoliths which look like Tian monolith https://books.google.co.in/books/about/Megalithic_Splendours_of_the_Dhansiri_Va.html?id=VQNQDQAAQBAJ . Can you help me to confirm if they are Tian monolith or not ? Ming Shilu mention total eight polity (Di-wu-la was seperated from Da gu-la) : Da Gu-la , Di-wu-la , Di-ma-sa , Xiao Gu-la , Cha-shan , Di-ban , Meng-lun , Ba-jia-ta. I've a confusion if all these are chinese word or name of kingdoms with chinese pronunciation. There is Dimasa community and Dimapur city, So, we can confirm that Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. I've added some identification.
- Da gu-la's Pacification superintendent = Po-di-na-lang = Some king with Narayana title of Da gu-la.
- Di-wu-la's Chief = Duo-li-shi-ma-zhi = Some king Manikya title of Ti-pu-ra.
- Di-ma-sa's Pacification superintendent = La-wang-pa = Some king with Pa/Fa title of Dimasa kingdom.
- Meng-lun's Chief = Dao han-ti ~~ Tyao Khamti of Tai-Ahom kingdom. Tai-Ahom people came from place called Mong-Mao-Lung
- Ba-jia-ta's Chief = Dao Qing-han . Tao or Dao title was used in Tai kingdoms.
- Xiao Gu-la's Chief = Bai-zhang and and (Tea Hill) Cha-shan's Chief = Zao-Zhang both of them have same surname. They might be ruled by same tribe.
- To understand relation between Da gu-la and Di-wu-la. This old journal may be useful. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0TQzAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA829 .
- I'll contact you if i will need help. Thank you sir. Hachengsa (talk) 08:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Hachengsa: Yes, we can confirm that Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. About other polities as follows:
- Da Gu-la (大古剌, 大/da means great or big): Chinese study believe that the Da Gu-la is Kingdom of Hanthawaddy in lower Burma. Chen Yi-sein did a study of it in the thesis above. He stated that the name "Da Gu-la" is a Chinese name transcription of Tuikgala or Taikkala. Taikkala was a place name in Kelāsa mountain of Thaton which belong to Hanthawaddy at that time. Lan Na[note 1] attack Taikkala when Binnya U throned king of Hanthawaddy. Chinese ancient people heard the name Taikkala, so record the name "Da Gu-la" in Chinese literature and refer the name to the Kingdom of Hanthawaddy. The king's name "Po-di-na-lang" (泼的那浪) is a compound-word about Pattana ("port" in Pali language) and Rhang ("host" in Burmese language), so the name "Po-di-na-lang" means "the host/owner of port". It is because a Chinese envoy Yang-Xuan (杨瑄) arrived at Hanthawaddy in 1403, and the king is Razadarit. Razadarit controlled all the seaport in lower Burma, so Taungoo people called him "Pattana-Rhang" which means "the host/owner of port". Chinese envoy Yang-Xuan heard the nickname and then Chinese literature record it as the king's name.[1]
- Di-wu-la (底兀剌): You are right, Chinese literature recorded Di-wu-la was separated from Da gu-la. Chinese scholar Fang-Guoyu (方国瑜) stated that "Di-wu-la" is a Chinese name transcription of "Taungoo".[2]: 1012 Based on Chen Yi-sein's study and other Chinese ancient records[note 2], we can confirm that Da Gu-la is referring to Hanthawaddy. And Di-wu-la was separated from Da gu-la, so Di-wu-la is more likely to refer to Taungoo rather than Tripura. The chief name "Duo-li-shi-ma-zhi" (朵里实马智) and he has a grandchild name "Na-lan" (纳兰). I have no idea about them.
- Di-ma-sa (底马撒): Although some Chinese ancient book (e.g. Mingshi) records Di-ma-sa was "at the southeast of Da Gu-la", we can proof the records was wrong. Anyway the seal of Dimasa Xuanwei Si was found in Assam, it is enough to prove Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. The professional scholar didn't explain why the Chinese ancient book records a mistake location about Di-ma-sa. I guess it is because Di-ma-sa is so close to other polities, from the perspective of Chinese capital, all these polities were in the south-west of the country. In order to arrive at these states, envoy should towards the west pass Yunnan in the general direction. So the ancient scholar thought these states should be located together. It is just my own conjecture, no reference support.
- Meng-lun (孟伦): It is no doubt that Meng-lun is a Tai/Dai/Shan people place. Chinese literature records the Meng-lun at the west of Mongyang State. Fang-Guoyu guesses Meng-lun at the place called Mawlu between Mohnyin and Naba in nowadays. But he was not sure, he used the word "might be" (quote: 疑即孟伦).[2]: 992 The king's name Dao han-ti (刀罕替) and Tyao Khamti looks exactly refer the same person. I haven't seen any Chinese research connected them together, but I think it's very possible. Digression, I have finished the article Mong-Mao-Lung in Chinese Wikipedia, it is a good article now and ready to be a featured article. But my English is not good enough so I won't improve English Wikipedia Mong Mao in the near future.
- Ba-jia-ta (八家塔): no idea where is it. I agree with you that Ba-jia-ta might be a Tai kingdom. The Dao (刀) also is a popular surname in Chinese Dai people group.
- Xiao Gu-la (小古剌, 小/xiao means little or small): Chen Yi-sein did a study on it, the summary is as follows: The "Gu-la" of Xiao Gu-la was a transcription of Gaur, there is no relation between Xiao Gu-la and Da Gu-la. The "Gu-la" of Da Gu-la came from Taikkala, and the Pali language name of Taikkala is called Golamattika Nagara. Both the "Gola" in Golamattika Nagara and "Gaur" have a common origin: Gauḍa. Thus, Gaur also be translated as "Gu-la".[1]
- Cha-shan (茶山): A scholar Yin-Zijian (尹梓鑑) wrote a thesis study the Cha-shan hundred years ago. The thesis was collected in Journal of Yongchang-Fu, volume 28 (永昌府文征). But I don't have the book and no digital edition on the internet. If I get the book, I will tell you the information.
- Notes
- @Hachengsa: Yes, we can confirm that Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. About other polities as follows:
- ^ The original text 景迈 (Jing-Mai) in the thesis, I guess it states Chiang Mai, thus should be the Lan Na Kingdom. Just I guess, not sure.
- ^ There are some of Chinese records state that Da Gu-la is another name of "白古" Bai-gu. Bai-gu is a more general name of Hanthawaddy, later in English written as Pegu.
- References
- ^ a b Chen, Yi-sein (1993). "关于"大古剌"、"小古剌"与"底马撒"的考释" [Study of 'Great Gula', 'Little Gula' and 'Dimasa']. Southeast Asia (in Chinese) (2): 23–28. ISSN 1000-7970.
- ^ a b Fang, Guoyu (1987). 中国西南历史地理考释 [Study of historical geography in southwest of China] (in Chinese). Beijing: Zhonghua Book Company. ISBN 7-101-00125-4. OCLC 818569043.
- --Xiliuheshui · chat 21:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- You may interested in the reference book Study of historical geography in southwest of China. Here is it.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- Back to your question, sorry I don't understand what is "Tian monolith". Is it a special stone stele? And I didn't get what you said "if they are Tian monolith or not". Do you means "do they have Tian monolith or not"?--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- --Xiliuheshui · chat 21:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Front page have some stone structure. They have shape of Tian. Tian is Chinese representation of Heaven. Hachengsa (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)