Talk:Battle of Košare

Change result

Two days ago I asked for changes, I found out I need consensus and no one else replied, I take that my request is OK. To be sure I will ask for change again.

I will repeat my points: No safe passage for KLA forces and weapons was provided (and no source for that part was provided), it was a frontline. Border outpost is not a military base, it was one larger house. And practically Yugoslav forces did not lose control of the borderline, they were still there only several meters away. I ask that these claims be removed from infobox because they are either not true, not supported by sources or simply exaggerated.

I ask that result says "Yugoslav victory" based on the goals and objectives of both sides. KLA (as it says in the main text itself) wanted to "enter Kosovo from Albania and cut off of the communication routes of the Yugoslav Army, and also take over of the region of Metohija". They achieved none of the objectives. Yugoslav Army objective was to stop them, which they did. That would mean it was Yugoslav victory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.107.227 (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije: Six days ago I asked for changes. You told me I need consensus and no one answered. Can result be changed now?

What you are performing is an WP:original research, which is not allowed. As I understand, you want to remove from the article the claim that KLA captured the Yugoslav military base in Košare. Bu, that statement is currently supported by WP:sources. And you did not provide any reliable sources to prove it was otherwise. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:22, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Can you give me source that says "military base", I can't find it. It was a border post, that is not my original research. Here is one source that says "guard post", it looks official: [1]

This source says "border post":[2]

Jamie Shea is saying "border post" in this book here:[3]

This one says the Yugoslav were undefeated before withdrawal and it is a source for change of result to "Yugoslav victory": [4]

This source says when they withdrew and when battle ended: [5]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.107.227 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I changed "military base" to "border outpost" per your sources. The b92 says the same: The KLA [...] managed to take the outpost. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. About other points: claim that Yugoslav forces lost borderline is not true. I provide this source which says otherwise: [6], page 16, paragraph under picture, part which reads "since Serbian forces had been in control of the area". Also I see no source for claim "safe passage for KLA forces and weapons from Albania". I assume it meant to say safe passage to Kosovo, but how could there be safe passage if there was fighting, bombing and Yugoslav forces were there? Where did the KLA forces and weapons go? Did not most of them retreat into Albania and started attack on Košare only to be stopped there until June 14? Both forces and weapons were stopped at the border, in the fight. I ask that claim be removed.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2020

I ask that following points from info box be deleted:

"Yugoslav forces lost control of the borderline between Albania and Kosovo" - Yugoslav forces did not lose control of the borderline, they were still there only several meters away. No source for this exists in the text. My counter source is [7], page 16, paragraph under picture, part which reads "since Serbian forces had been in control of the area".

"Safe passage for KLA forces and weapons from Albania" - No safe passage for KLA forces and weapons was provided (and no source for that part was provided), it was a frontline. I assume it meant to say safe passage to Kosovo, but how could there be safe passage if there was fighting, bombing and Yugoslav forces were there? Where did the KLA forces and weapons go? Did not most of them retreat into Albania and started attack on Košare only to be stopped there until June 14? Both forces and weapons were stopped at the border, in the fight. I ask that claim be removed.

I ask that result be changed to "FR Yugoslav victory" - KLA (as it says in the main text itself) wanted to "enter Kosovo from Albania and cut off of the communication routes of the Yugoslav Army, and also take over the region of Metohija". They achieved none of the objectives. Yugoslav Army objective was to stop them, which they did. That would mean it was Yugoslav victory. My request is based on the goals and objectives of both sides. I was told this means I am conducting "original research". Therefore I am providing two sources that support my request. This one says the Yugoslav were undefeated before Kumanovo agreement [8] and this says when battle ended and how KLA failed its objective [9].

I was told to reach consensus on talk page, but barely anyone responds, so again I submit my request for edit changes with sources to back me up. 91.150.107.227 (talk) 06:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done: :First of all, please understand that all editors of this project are volunteers and may not respond on any particular schedule. There is no staff to make requested changes, for example. In the case of this article, the article creator and three out of the four most involved editors to this page have either retired or been blocked. This means that there aren't a many eyes on this talk page as might otherwise be.

Secondly, most of the requests fail on substantive grounds. The "Results" sections of battles and conflicts are not required to be independently sourced. Infoboxes are summaries of the text of the article.

The cited sources from the body text make the loss of border control supported and the counter-source does not say what you want it to say. "Serbian forces had been in control..." is a verb usage that refers to a completed action in the past. In other words, by the time Hashim Thaqi was making that statement, Serbian forces were no longer in control of the area.

The free passage of KLA forces across the border is not substantiated by the text. I have removed this from the infobox.

The body text makes no such claim of Serbian victory and the argument presented relies solely on Serbian government sources, which are not reliable or neutral.

I wish you health and safety during this time and I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:21, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

First of all, I know people here are volunteers. I mentioned response time, because it takes about an hour to decline my request when it's not sourced and nearly a week when I need consensus, and even then partially. I see the page is locked, and I would bet there are enough eyes watching this page.

Secondly, I am glad results in infobox are the summary of the text. In that case I would like to repeat my arguments (the main body text which supports it) - KLA had three main objectives and they achieved none, Yugoslav forces had one (to stop KLA from going into Kosovo) and they managed that until the end of war. It was a Yugoslav victory since they managed to hold off KLA. That is why I asked for change, but I was told I am doing "original research" and that I need a source.

If I misunderstood text because of tense, my mistake. But Yugoslavs were still in control of the area and I would say border itself. The main text says they retreated just above the building, they were only meters away. I would not call that losing control of the borderline between Albania and Yugoslavia. I would also like to point out that it was a border between two recognized countries - Albania and Yugoslavia, not a border between a country and a province of another country. I would also like to see that fixed.

As for Serbian government sources being unreliable that's up for a debate, but the second source in English [10] isn't governments source. The source says KLA failed to enter into Yugoslavia and they remained at the border until the end of the war.

Bless ya, Eggi, take care.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2020

Removal of "Yugoslav forces lost control of the borderline between Albania and Kosovo" as it seems like a dubious claim at best and not really supported by the sources. If this request is not acceptable per Wikipedia standards other change should be in the infobox from "borderline between Albania and Kosovo" to proper and legal "border between FR Yugoslavia and Albania" as it says in the beginning of the main text. 91.150.107.227 (talk) 10:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Aasim 10:28, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

The Article is a Joke

This article is a joke, if Serbs and Albanians can't come to the conclusion and make a balanced article, it should be deleted. Gen. Wesley Clark, the Supreme Allied Commander Europe commanded during the battle? Or, on the Serbian side, gen. Nebojsa Pavkovic, the commander of the Yugoslav Third Army? Serbs had 10,000 troops defending that outpost? (During the Kosovo War, they had 40,000 solders in and around Kosovo, so that would be 25% of troops arround a single border outpost.) The Kumanovo Agreement was the result of this battle? That was the reason that Yugoslav Army left Kosovo? --N Jordan (talk) 20:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@N Jordan: I've reworded the result of the battle, and removed the Kumanovo Agreement. Aleksamil (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Aleksamil: Thank you, this is a step in the right direction. However... Did 82nd Airborn really participate? It was deployed in Albania near the border but it didn't fire a single shot during the war. Did the Yugoslav army had 10,000 troops deployed in that region - or they used 10,000 people during the battle? The same applies to the Albanian army. --N Jordan (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Albanian army involvement

Was the Albanian Army involved in this battle? I'm having trouble finding reliable sources for this claim. The battle coincided with the Albanian-Yugoslav border incident of April 1999, but as for the battle itself I'd say evidence of Albanian involvement is lacking. I agree there should probably be mention of the fact that the KLA was allowed by Albania to carry out the assault from Albanian territory, though.--Aleksamil (talk) 23:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)