Talk:White South Africans

Middle Easterns as whites

Hi User:2601:84:4502:61ea:456f:e528:dd7:cf11, please note, the source you cited [1] states that Lebanese people were classified as 'White' during Apartheid. It cannot be extrapolated that it then applies in democratic South Africa or that this applies to all other Middle Eastern people. This is a stretch. I will make one final revert and we can discuss the changes here until a consensus is reached. Note the WP:3RR. Waddie96 (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

If there is a source showing that their definition of white changed after apartheid was lifted, I'd love to see it.2601:84:4502:61EA:456F:E528:DD7:CF11 (talk) 14:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The problem with using state-sponsored classification systems to determine the race of a specific ethnic group is that this practice in South Africa has always been notoriously inconsistent and riddled with contradictions dictated by political and practical realities. For example, Japanese were classified as "white" by the apartheid government while Chinese were not. Note that they are omitted from this article despite this historical fact. Thousands of Coloureds (the so-called "borderline cases") were classified as "white" when in fact they were not (strictly speaking). Sandra Laing was born to white parents but was classified as "Coloured". In modern South Africa, Chinese are classified as "black" under BEE legislation.

A source stating that Lebanese in South Africa currently self-identify as "white" (for example, in the census) would be preferential. --Katangais (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That is a very difficult task since there are no sources out there (from what I could find) that discuss what "white" means in post-apartheid South Africa, nor do they give any indication that the definition of white changed after apartheid fell. The citation given in the article is mostly about racial classifications under apartheid, so it isn't any more useful than what I gave. The self-identity angle is even trickier since, as you said, South Africa was very inconsistent about racial identification. Overall, there aren't a lot of sources that discuss the racial status of Middle Eastern ethnic groups to begin with (save for Jews, Lebanese, and Syrians), but if what you're looking for is of more recent vintage, you could try these.

http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/july00/The_Struggle.htm

http://politicsweb.co.za/news-and-analysis/the-strange-career-of-race-classification-in-south

Both sources make it clear that Levantines were categorized as white. So I suppose you could put "Levantines" instead of "Middle Easterners" as a whole?2601:84:4502:61EA:3D9A:6035:D179:F3B3 (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to note that Levantines were classified as white under apartheid, but without a source documenting post-apartheid self-identification as white (for example, in the census) we cannot conclusively state that Levantines are white South Africans.

After apartheid was dismantled, I believe race in South Africa became largely a matter of self-identification. Hence why the census, which relies on self-identification, is the most appropriate source to cite when it comes to which groups identify as what in terms of race. --Katangais (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for this claim? Because "I believe" isn't good enough. None of the post-apartheid census listings I've seen (and I've been looking for more than 2 hours) offer any concrete definitions of whiteness. All they do is list off individual racial categories and give the percentages for each. That's about it. Unfortunately, pre-apartheid definitions are all we have to go off of for the time being, and they've all been fairly consistent about Jews, Syrians, and Lebanese being legally "white", despite their "Asiatic" origins. There is no indication or reliable source that explicitly states that white = exclusively European, either before or after apartheid. Especially when considering how many cases there were of southern Europeans being classified (or re-classified) as "coloured".

Also, this article encompasses the pre-apartheid era, so it makes sense to include that in the lead section as well. As for the citation that is already present in the article, it mostly discusses the pre-apartheid era. Nowhere does it say that whiteness now applies exclusively to Europeans.2601:84:4502:61EA:456F:E528:DD7:CF11 (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

The census is based on self-identification, that's what I meant. You could determine whether any number of Arabic speakers - including Lebanese - identify also as white. That's how we've been able to estimate the number of Afrikaners, Portuguese South Africans, and English-speaking whites, respectively.

As I pointed out earlier, using the apartheid and Union-era racial classification, as well as BEE classification, to state conclusively that one ethnic group belongs to one race or another is problematic due to the massive amount of inconsistencies. That doesn't render the information invalid, but it does render invalid the argument that "X group is Y, because they were classified as Y under apartheid".

Interestingly, the editorship had a similar dispute with regards to the article White Africans, which resulted in that article being moved to White Africans of European ancestry. Perhaps something along similar lines would be prudent here? --Katangais (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

But the post-apartheid censuses never specify what "white" means. All they do is list racial categories and give percentages for each. Linguistic groups are listed separately, and they give no indication as to what linguistic group belongs to what race. Trying to figure that out on our own won't work either.

As for your second idea, I don't know. That would require us to subtract European groups from the White South Africans category on the census total, which is impossible for the aforementioned reasons. We'd also have to create at least one new article for Middle Eastern South Africans (separate articles already exist for Jews and Lebanese, but not for the other MENA groups).2601:84:4502:61EA:456F:E528:DD7:CF11 (talk) 20:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure which census results you're looking at, but linguistic groups and racial categories do overlap in the census results. The 2011 Census lists the number of white Afrikaans and English speakers, respectively, on pages 26-27. Unfortunately the census does not cover the number of whites who speak minority languages other than the twelve official ones of South Africa. --Katangais (talk) 21:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I guess I stand corrected then. I was so focused on looking for definitions of whiteness that I must have missed that table. Either way, it doesn't tell us anything. It doesn't tell us what white means, or how many Europeans or Middle Easterners there are. In fact, the words "Europe", "Middle East", "Jew", "Lebanon"/"Lebanese", "Syria", and "Arab" do not appear even once in that entire PDF.2601:84:4502:61EA:456F:E528:DD7:CF11 (talk) 02:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

The Levant is not the Middle East. Were Saudis considered white in South Africa? We need a source saying all Middle Eastern were white as a matter of law in South Afica. If you have a source that says Levant, say Levant. Steeletrap (talk) 18:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm a year late to the party, but I did manage to find a source for Lebanese and Jews. For this reason, I changed the wording to "parts of the Middle East".

Apartheid definition of white does not support claim that Middle Eastern were white

See: http://politicsweb.co.za/news-and-analysis/the-strange-career-of-race-classification-in-south

"Asiatic means, a person whose parents are, or were members of a race or tribe whose national or ethnical home is Asia, and shall include a person partly of Asiatic origin living as a Asiatic family, but shall not include any Jew, Syrian or Cape Malay"

The law clearly implies that all "Asiatics", excluding Jews, Syrians, and Cape Malay, were not white. Therefore Egyptians, Saudis were not white in South Africa. Nor were southern Levantines such as Jordanians or Palestinians. Steeletrap (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Definition of white: "A white person means a person both of whose parents are or were members of a race whose national to ethnical home is Europe, and shall include any Jew, Syrian or other person who is in appearance obviously a white person unless and until contrary is proven." This does not include all Middle Eastern or even Levantine people, merely Jews and Syrians. Steeletrap (talk) 18:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Mahatma Gandhi apparently lobbied for Indian South Asian South Africans to have their own third set of facilities, but i can't find a source for this. I heard it on BBC podcast. Irtapil (talk) 07:58, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Distribution

The "% change 2001-2011" column doesn't show the actual percentage change in the population. It shows the change in percentage points which is a different matter. 2602:306:CFEA:170:41E8:1CC7:9C7F:C11 (talk) 04:50, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Dual citizenship

Hello.

I am a registered immigration specialist (South Africa) and I noticed a mistake re Dual Citizenship which is, in fact, legal with conditions.

"These figures may be grossly unreliable due to legislation which does not allow South Africans to hold dual citizenships so many who emigrate let their citizenship remain dormant or lapsed while changing citizenship and no reporting method exists."[34]

Please see this link to the South African High Commision website. https://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm"

Thanks. GraemeBell1974 (talk) 12:53, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Spoken languages statistics

I was wondering if anyone can direct me to where the "2016 figures" are from? I see there was a recent edit which states that 40.2% of white South Africans speak English natively, however none of the sources back this figure up? --BenBezuidenhout (talk) 07:49, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

reasons for emigration

I think this section is inaccurate (or at the very least incomplete), and probably biased. but my source of knowledge isn't citable, so i'm raising it here rather than editing the page.

"Between 1995 and 2005, more than one million South Africans emigrated, citing violent and racially motivated black on white crime as the main reason, as well as the lack of employment opportunities for whites.[19]"

I'm from Australia and there were a lot of South Africans and Zimbabweans in the community where i grew up in the 1990s and early 2000s. None of them described fear of violence as the major motivating factor for leaving.

Their motives were more often economic, or just that the felt Australia was a more pleasant place to live. But not "it was dangerous there" just "it's more pleasant here".

And the economic motives weren't about there being specifically few opportunities for white people in southern Africa, more a general lack of opportunity and the white people were those who could afford to emigrate. Australia's immigration intake often advantages things like education, and can pretty blatantly favour wealth. So it would impact their likelihood of being accepted as well as the expense of moving.

Irtapil (talk) 07:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC)